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Is America becoming a failed state?

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GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
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    Posted: 25 January 2021 at 7:49am
Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

If they had to make up "weapons of mass destruction" intelligence before unleashing massive war killing tens of thousands I doubt whether they'll be too bothered in a "little collateral damage -only a few muslims dead" type mistake. Just over a year ago the US killed top Iranian army major general Qasem Soleimani and his associates in a drone strike when on an official visit to Iraq to coordinate joint Iraq - Iran moves wipe out ISIS and al Qaeda terrorists in their respective countries. This provocation fortunately did not lead to an all out war mainly due to the mature response of the Iranian leadership but is clearly a reckless and gross violation of international norms and law.

Cannot disagree Dai.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dai Guevara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 January 2021 at 3:46pm
If they had to make up "weapons of mass destruction" intelligence before unleashing massive war killing tens of thousands I doubt whether they'll be too bothered in a "little collateral damage -only a few muslims dead" type mistake. Just over a year ago the US killed top Iranian army major general Qasem Soleimani and his associates in a drone strike when on an official visit to Iraq to coordinate joint Iraq - Iran moves wipe out ISIS and al Qaeda terrorists in their respective countries. This provocation fortunately did not lead to an all out war mainly due to the mature response of the Iranian leadership but is clearly a reckless and gross violation of international norms and law.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2021 at 7:51pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

The yanks can spend what they like on defence, not our bother. Where they and the west in general fall down is a) thinking every nation wants and needd democracy like us b ) having no long term plan for aiding nations once they have helped over throw a regime.  I cry no tears for saddam or gadaffi but both those countries are worse not better now they are no longer in power there.  Drone strikes dont bother me if they taken out terrorsits. Invasions and regime changes a different matter

Yes RR but taking out terrorists only is very rarely achieved. Sitting in some air conditioned control room somewhere in Texas ordering satelite controlled drone strikes in Iraq usually results in collateral damage which nobody ever reports. Lets change the personnel a little - someone sitting in Havana calling up drone strikes on the Pentagon or White House would be quite rightly called a terrorist and guilty of war crimes. What is the difference? 

One final point - whose word do we have that any target is actually a terrorist - oops fraid so the very same organisation ordering the strike. 
 The level of proof is prob needed for a drone strike is quite high i guess, usually these are known terrorists with a list of previous offences, info on them is wide and varied local intelligence, paid informers undercover agents. Plus satelite pics, cell phone calls hacked emails etc, there is lot of boxes to be ticked before a strike is authorised. As i said i’m not agreeing or disagreeing just stating the likely process

Edited by RR1972 - 23 January 2021 at 8:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2021 at 7:21pm
If more countries continue buying up more and more drones , all making the excuse theyre doing it for their own self defence in order to leapfrog all legal restraints , where will all this end? 
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2021 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

The yanks can spend what they like on defence, not our bother. Where they and the west in general fall down is a) thinking every nation wants and needd democracy like us b ) having no long term plan for aiding nations once they have helped over throw a regime.  I cry no tears for saddam or gadaffi but both those countries are worse not better now they are no longer in power there.  Drone strikes dont bother me if they taken out terrorsits. Invasions and regime changes a different matter

Yes RR but taking out terrorists only is very rarely achieved. Sitting in some air conditioned control room somewhere in Texas ordering satelite controlled drone strikes in Iraq usually results in collateral damage which nobody ever reports. Lets change the personnel a little - someone sitting in Havana calling up drone strikes on the Pentagon or White House would be quite rightly called a terrorist and guilty of war crimes. What is the difference? 

One final point - whose word do we have that any target is actually a terrorist - oops fraid so the very same organisation ordering the strike. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2021 at 3:05pm
The yanks can spend what they like on defence, not our bother. Where they and the west in general fall down is a) thinking every nation wants and needd democracy like us b ) having no long term plan for aiding nations once they have helped over throw a regime.  I cry no tears for saddam or gadaffi but both those countries are worse not better now they are no longer in power there.  Drone strikes dont bother me if they taken out terrorsits. Invasions and regime changes a different matter
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dai Guevara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2021 at 2:47pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

What's that saying, if you seek peace prepare for war?

And that's certainly what the USA has done and promises to keep on doing- spending huge amounts on expensive armaments so they can attack from the safety of their own bunkers as if playing a computer game. However, talking about failed states, how many of those attacked are now functioning societies with a decent standard of living? This isn't something that the US govt really cares about, once the impudence of the resisting government has been removed and replaced with puppets -they don't believe in social, educational or economic improvement - they can live in squalor so long as they don't resist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2021 at 1:06pm
What's that saying, if you seek peace prepare for war?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2021 at 1:03pm
Likewise. I think if the us wasn't doing it, another superpower in Russia or China would be. Bullies rule the world and probably always have done and will. Smaller nations like the UK, France and Germany have to pick a side or try and form some alliance to compete. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2021 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

The USA has over 800 foreign military bases scattered all over the globe (including Guantanamo in Cuba where leaks have shown that it uses torture on prisoners). Why would a country that is only interested in self defence need all these? The truth is that they are there to maintain the dominant position of the dollar and the unrestrained economic and financial exploitation of countries it regards as inferior. Woe betide anyone that steps out of line. Then a series of measures begin to be imposed, starting with a propaganda assault, followed by sanctions, coups and if still resisting all out military attack, usually justified by media lies like weapons of mass destruction or genocide eg Iraq, Libya -two rich, uncooperative, oil producing countries now totally destroyed.
At one time they used to say-
The business of America is Business.
Now more apt would be -
The business of America is War

Cannot really argue with those FACTS or your sentiments in all honesty Dai. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2021 at 12:08pm
I’m not a huge fan of usa foreign policy or china’s tbh, both in it for themselves
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dai Guevara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2021 at 12:05pm
The USA has over 800 foreign military bases scattered all over the globe (including Guantanamo in Cuba where leaks have shown that it uses torture on prisoners). Why would a country that is only interested in self defence need all these? The truth is that they are there to maintain the dominant position of the dollar and the unrestrained economic and financial exploitation of countries it regards as inferior. Woe betide anyone that steps out of line. Then a series of measures begin to be imposed, starting with a propaganda assault, followed by sanctions, coups and if still resisting all out military attack, usually justified by media lies like weapons of mass destruction or genocide eg Iraq, Libya -two rich, uncooperative, oil producing countries now totally destroyed.
At one time they used to say-
The business of America is Business.
Now more apt would be -
The business of America is War
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2021 at 11:11am
All above my pay grade mate. The west need to realise our idea  of democracy doesn’t work for everyone so leave them do their own thing. As long as they not committing genocide or harbouring people who plan to harm us
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2021 at 11:05am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Their arguement would be taking out terrorists or people planning attacks in the usa in havens like syria somalia etc saves another 9/11.  Drone strikes less risk to your own special forces than to put boots on the ground And take these people out. I don’t know just explaining the logic behind them

I take your point RR but where does this endless merry go round end? It will only really end at the negotiating table. Who of us Western apparently civilised people can fail to have any sympathy for the causes of Middle Eastern people who only see America as murderers who are intent on having everything their own way.

Why should Iran not have access to nuclear capability when their sworn enemies over decades have them? When is the so called civilised Western World going to realise that the age of colonialism is over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2021 at 10:32am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Their arguement would be taking out terrorists or people planning attacks in the usa in havens like syria somalia etc saves another 9/11.  Drone strikes less risk to your own special forces than to put boots on the ground And take these people out. I don’t know just explaining the logic behind them

Ah but 9/11 was an inside job of course....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2021 at 10:28am
Their arguement would be taking out terrorists or people planning attacks in the usa in havens like syria somalia etc saves another 9/11.  Drone strikes less risk to your own special forces than to put boots on the ground And take these people out. I don’t know just explaining the logic behind them

Edited by RR1972 - 23 January 2021 at 10:28am
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