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UK to leave EU

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Abbey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Abbey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2016 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

I am no expert on the fishing availability within our territorial waters but I have to be led by the claims of the Cornish & Grimsby fishing families who have stated quite categorically that since we have been subjected to the Common Fisheries Policy 70-80% of fishermen have left the Industry. 


I've no doubt they have. Probably due to more stringent legislation (which may or may not be repealed) and limits due to replenishment of stocks (e.g. cod).

Won't be made better by only being able to fish within 12 miles off our shores unless we either strike a deal or go to the brink of war again with Iceland.

The thing with common policies is that they're reciprocal. What is our bargaining position now then? That the EU member states cannot fish within 12 nautical miles of UK shores?

At every turn we see the disaster that unfolding.

But at least we'll keep the immigrants out. Or, if we agree to a favourable trade agreement, they'll still be allowed free entry to the UK. Well, that worked, didn't it?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SA14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2016 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by Abbey Abbey wrote:

It's likely that we'll eventually get a fair deal on trade with Europe as French wine producers and German car manufacturers see us as their biggest export market.
The U.K. Imports far more than it exports (12.6% of our exports go to EU but only 3.1% of their economy relies on 3.1% exports are to us).
However, to make an example of us, they may impose tariffs or quotas on areas like farming or not allow good access to EU waters for fishing.
The EU has us over a barrel especially as we have so few trade negotiators (ironically, we'll have to headhunt overseas). Many say that Article 50 is designed to weaken the departing state's position. For instance, the 2 year deadline can only be extended with consent from all 27 member states. Even with good relations, it took Canada 7 years to ratify their trade deal.

But at least there'll be no immigrants, innit.



There'll be a control on immigrants. Not stopping them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2016 at 7:21pm
How many boats now fish out of Britain compared to before we joined EU. We played by the barmy EU rules in relation to quotas whilst other countries fleets stuck two fingers up to Europe. to say the EU has been good for te British fishing industry is beyond laughable and is insulting to the thousands of people who lost their jobs as a result.

Edited by Why - 07 July 2016 at 7:24pm
She asks why i still can't answer. I guess its in the blood.
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Abbey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Abbey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 July 2016 at 7:28pm
Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

How many boats now fish out of Britain compared to before we joined EU. We played by the barmy EU rules in relation to quotas whilst other countries fleets stuck two fingers up to Europe. to say the EU has been good for te British fishing industry is beyond laughable and is insulting to the thousands of people who lost their jobs as a result.


Oh, right. So we just go out and depleat the stocks then? You've been reading the Daily Mail too much to think that all these laws made by Brussels are just dreamed up by mad people.

If it wasn't for EU quotas, there'd be no bloody cod to fish.

Jesus wept.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2016 at 10:06am
Where did I say that I didn't agree with quotas all I said is that rightly we abided by rules of EU other countries did not are you that naive to believe otherwise. That is why the stocks are low. You obviously agree with throwing of perfectly good dead fish back into the sea a practice that did not help the stocks either.
Jesus wept indeed
She asks why i still can't answer. I guess its in the blood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2016 at 10:50am
Why - thank goodness for sense. Some folk on here seem to label all leave supporters as Swastika yielding Nazi sympathising racists who cannot possibly be trusted with having a brain or indeed be capable of reasonable arguments/views. I have no idea of your views with regard to the leave/remain issue but I can agree with your comments above.

Leave or remain is no panacea for all ills, my view was based on the fact that I would prefer to be governed by democratically elected people answerable to the British people who did not add another hugely costly layer of non elected & elected government. Oh and not to forget getting rid of immigrants innit!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sosban89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2016 at 11:23am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Why - thank goodness for sense. Some folk on here seem to label all leave supporters as Swastika yielding Nazi sympathising racists who cannot possibly be trusted with having a brain or indeed be capable of reasonable arguments/views.
 
While this probably does feel like the case it is just unfortunate that you are lumped into the group of the majority voters. Or at least the voters who are heard the loudest.
 
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Leave or remain is no panacea for all ills, my view was based on the fact that I would prefer to be governed by democratically elected people answerable to the British people who did not add another hugely costly layer of non elected & elected government. Oh and not to forget getting rid of immigrants innit!!!!
 
But will the costly layer prove to be a wise investment if we do leave and perhaps trade falters?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan the Drover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2016 at 11:40am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Some folk on here seem to label all leave supporters as Swastika yielding Nazi sympathising racists....


That would be stupid and unfair.  But which way do you suppose the Swastika yielding Nazi sympathising racists voted?

The uncomfortable reality is that most political movements and campaigns are "unholy" alliances who may share a goal but have different reasons for wanting to achieve it, and different aspirations about what achieving it would mean. 

So, anyone uncomfortable about the levels of immigration into this country, would (I guess) be overwhelmingly likely to vote Leave.  And whether or not significant reductions in immigration can be achieved, politicians wanting the UK to leave, EVEN IF THEY THEMSELVES ARE NOT PRIMARILY MOTIVATED BY IMMIGRATION REDUCTION, will inevitably ally with politicians who are, and will try to appeal to voters who are.  That could be what happened, and it would only have needed about 5% of the LEAVE voters to be that way motivated to swing the result the way it went.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ladram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2016 at 11:59am
George Osborne has now said that Britain will prosper after brexit not collapse in a heap as was feared just 2 weeks ago/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2016 at 1:24pm
What I find insulting about the people moaning about the result is that they do not believe the people who voted leave understood what they were voting for. I was appalled by both sides hysterical rants and scaremongering it was akin to playground arguments. I based my opinion on my experiences and what I was able to garnish from the more reasonable debates in the written and broadcast media. Now I don't think I'm out of the ordinary and trust the majority of the voting public were able to see through the hype and make an informed decision. The fact middle England and the working class voted to leave says a lot about the lack of trust in the leaders of this country.
She asks why i still can't answer. I guess its in the blood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Abbey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2016 at 2:00pm
Ok. I'll backtrack and apologise

Of course I know that none of you are loony racists. The concerns of the majority are valid and not based on racism and bigotry. Immigration is an honest issue which needs debating and not hijacked by UKIP supporters and Daily Mail fascists.

Working in the public sector, I see that the EU what's given us fair laws (and weird ones like straight cucumbers) designed to protect.
It's not perfect and the monthly trek to Strasbourg is ridiculous. And as for Junker......

I just see our economy going down the drain as I speak.



Edited by Abbey - 08 July 2016 at 2:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2016 at 2:30pm
Abbey you have a fair & reasoned argument. I just disagree on some things. I believe our economy will stabilise over the next few months & eventually we will get back to business as usual with our 275 million net contribution per week available for our elected government to spend as they deem fit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedZep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2016 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by Dan the Drover Dan the Drover wrote:

Originally posted by RedZep RedZep wrote:

Apologies for my ignorance but can you please clarify exactly which countries are part of this U.S. economic block that have the total freedom of movement, E.U. style, to settle freely within the U.S.?


I'm sorry for any confusion - I meant to say that the U.S. is, by itself, a single economic block, as is China. It is not to my knowledge part of a larger trading block with a customs union and freedom of movement inside.  The U.S. obviously does not need to control free movement of people within its own borders (though China is experiencing some problems with people movement, which they can hope to solve since theirs is a more "directed" economy than ours or the U.S's).

The EU is a big trading entity - by GDP about the same as the U.S. -  which makes trade agreements with other blocks and with individual countries.  From an economic (if not, yet, a political and fiscal) point of view, the EU can be treated as a single trading entity, like the U.S. or China or any other sovereign nation but critically, of comparable size with the largest economies in the world. 

The U.K. by itself used to be (pre-Brexit) the 5th and is now the 6th largest economy behind the U.S., China, Japan, Germany (and now France, I guess).  But Germany's economy is less than a quarter the size of the U.S., and the UK is now less than a fifth.  When the UK leaves the EU, it will reduce the size of the EU economy by a sixth, but will itself revert to being a trading economy one sixth the size of the EU. It remains to be seen whether, as the Leave campaign seems confident, it will be able to make more advantageous trade agreements with the rest of the world than it enjoys today.

So the 2 x economies that the EU aspires to only have freedom of labour movement within their own national boundaries due to the political union between the member states, the United States of America, for example. 

The EU could only ever be comparable with these 2 x trading blocks if it too had political unity, a United States of Europe, which I believe is the long term objective and is contributable to many voters' choice. Add to that the undemocratic process with which the EU leadership is "elected" and it aspires to be more like Communist China than the democracy of the US.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sosban89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2016 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Abbey you have a fair & reasoned argument. I just disagree on some things. I believe our economy will stabilise over the next few months & eventually we will get back to business as usual with our 275 million net contribution per week available for our elected government to spend as they deem fit.
 
Well yes, over the next few months things will stabilise as we haven't left the EU, so whatever happens for the next few months doesn't really give any picture as to what will happen if we do leave.
 
If we strike a trade deal with the EU we will likely forgo some of the things that people who voted leave are trying to escape. ala immigration.
 
If we don't strike a deal that puts thousands of business's that trade outside of the UK in jeopardy. I've seen people make the point that it'll be a good thing as it'll force the UK to be more self sufficient, however there is little evidence that this is the case, and there would be a long transition period for this.
Perhaps in a decade or longer I can accept then you may see the economy adapting to the change, however it could be a brutal few years and who knows if it'll be better off than having stayed.
 


Edited by Sosban89 - 08 July 2016 at 3:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2016 at 3:17pm
What I do not understand is the great pessimism of the remain voters about our ability to trade. We do not have any trade agreement with the US but they are our biggest customer by far. What is to stop us having the same relationship individually with each of the 27 EU countries that we have with the US? Our relationship with the US does not involve paying billions for the priveledge nor indeed opening our borders to free movement. This is a genuine question - I would be interested to know the remain supporters' response. Does anyone truly believe, for instance, that BMW & Mercedes would be happy to sit idly by if the UK were to respond to a negative duty charge on UK business with one of our own on car imports from Germany?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scarlet O'Hara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2016 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

What I find insulting about the people moaning about the result is that they do not believe the people who voted leave understood what they were voting for. I was appalled by both sides hysterical rants and scaremongering it was akin to playground arguments. I based my opinion on my experiences and what I was able to garnish from the more reasonable debates in the written and broadcast media. Now I don't think I'm out of the ordinary and trust the majority of the voting public were able to see through the hype and make an informed decision. The fact middle England and the working class voted to leave says a lot about the lack of trust in the leaders of this country.


No I don't think that you were alone but I think you may be surprised just how many didn't see through the crap. 
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