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UKIP and the rise of the right

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dr_martinov View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: UKIP and the rise of the right
    Posted: 26 May 2014 at 2:45pm
A pretty big [presumably] protest vote saw them win the most MEP seats. I do like the irony that an anti-Europe party campaigns for them in the first place: That's like me applying to be a vicar.

Anyway, I have no political allegiance to any party, yet I find the rise of UKIP pretty worrying. I'm sure only around 40% of their members are actually racists, and there is obviously an anti-Europe sentiment running around now, but geography is geograParc y Scarletsurely? There's also a similar rise of the equivalent in France, the National Front. I find it genuinely concerning and I think the main parties in both countries simply have to address this now because they're obviously getting something wrong.

As always though, the problem with democracy is that every stupid bastard gets a vote. Wink

Am after a genuine debate here with all sides of the argument - as I may well be missing something and enough people are voting for UKIP so I'd be interested to learn what attracts people to do so.

I did like Stewart Lee's take on things:


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Mr Ian View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Ian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2014 at 2:51pm
In Italy won Democratic Party with his leader Matteo Renzi. He saved the entire European Socialist Party. Honestly i dont like him, for me he represents the classico and old italian style...I hoped in the air of changment with Movimento 5 Stelle with the comician Beppe Grillo and many others, differently of other european protest party, they arent racist, they would like a different place where live.
Of Course this Europe must change, it's a really big truffa against citizens...
I'm a little bit worried about the vote for new naziskins in Germany, or Alba Dorata in Greece and many other..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonnyLewis420 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2014 at 3:24pm
god damn i love stewart lee. thanks for that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reesytheexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2014 at 3:59pm
The problem is UKIP is just Nigel Farage, who does all press stuff (I wonder why?!) and sells himself as 'the man down the home counties pub' and the rest of them are of unknown quality-or just unknown. The thought of the British public acting knee-jerk to give them the balance of power in any General Election in a year is very scary!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2014 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by reesytheexile reesytheexile wrote:

The problem is UKIP is just Nigel Farage, who does all press stuff (I wonder why?!) and sells himself as 'the man down the home counties pub' and the rest of them are of unknown quality-or just unknown. The thought of the British public acting knee-jerk to give them the balance of power in any General Election in a year is very scary!

If it's just one nut-job, I'm not too worried but a lot of people seem to agree with him. I wish the BBC hadn't given him all that media attention in the last 6 months or so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (4) Thanks(4)   Quote supertaf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2014 at 8:48pm
All people want is Britain back where it was. Were we racist when Churchill was PM? By definition, probably we were as we put Britain first and fought literally on the beaches to keep it that way. We didn't want foreign rule but we have ended up with it through the EU. If anyone thinks leaving the EU is bad, check out Norway and Switzerland - they aren't doing too bad as it happens. Saying no more immigrants isn't racist, it's just honest and sensible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Abbey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2014 at 10:30pm
Farage spoke today about creating spokespeople for health, education etc. Creating? Have they not got these already?

And that's where UKIP fall over, once you get beyond the bigotry. You can't scream "Romanians" or spout anti-European rhetoric when you have to produce a manifesto for the NHS or, in local politics with their councillors, refuse collection policies.

I wonder if those working class voters in the valleys, normally socialist leaning individuals, realise that UKIP are basically Tories?

The basic idea of the original common market of European member states is sound. It's reform that's needed to slim down the bloated bureaucracy, including the ludicrous monthly troop from Brussels to Strasbourg.

It's up to the mainstream parties to engage the public before next year's general election to counter UKIP and ensure that more than 33% of those eligible will vote. Posting leaflets via Royal Mail rather than true engagement with the electorate is not sufficient.



Edited by Abbey - 26 May 2014 at 10:31pm
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dr_martinov View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (5) Thanks(5)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2014 at 8:57am
Originally posted by supertaf supertaf wrote:

All people want is Britain back where it was. Were we racist when Churchill was PM? By definition, probably we were as we put Britain first and fought literally on the beaches to keep it that way. We didn't want foreign rule but we have ended up with it through the EU. If anyone thinks leaving the EU is bad, check out Norway and Switzerland - they aren't doing too bad as it happens. Saying no more immigrants isn't racist, it's just honest and sensible.

I do notice you've had three thanks for this. Presumably because you mentioned Churchill and the War in the first half. I'll only respond to things in the second part to make sure I am not coming across as being in favour of the Nazi occupation of Europe (which, in all seriousness, is quite a different situation to things now).

There is a definite pro and con to being in the EU - completely accept this and this is what me starting the thread was interested to find out more about (ignoring my jokes about racism - lets move on from that). I like different countries and cultures and think the rich should help the poor. So I am in favour of remaining in the EU as it's really important to make sure emerging nations get support.

The point I make is Britain has always been open to immigration: I think this is something which adds to our society and culture, not detracts from it. In fact, the whole notion of "British" is built upon multiple waves of immigration, as Stewart Lee refers to in that video link I posted.

The arguments along the lines of immigrants only being a drain on the system I don't think work as there are by far greater numbers of native UK who fit the same criteria.

This leads into the recent trend of eastern european immigrants taking up the jobs British people simply don't want to do, or well-trained individuals coming across to take up specific roles.

Basically, I struggle to see the actual problems here - of course immigration needs to be regulated carefully - but why to such an extreme level as proposed by UKIP voters and comments along the lines of "no more immigrants".

And before anyone has a go at me for not understanding the threat of foreign workers to my livelihood, I work in science where a high proportion of academics and research staff are non-British. For example, I work in a lab run by two Irish professors, with Postdocs/PhD students from: UK (3), Portugal (1), Spain (2), China (1), Thailand (1), Malaysia (1), Germany (1), Sweden (1). (So 23% UK) And you know what..... I quite like that and think we have all learned a lot from each other.

Isolation from Europe is not the answer for Britain in my opinion and I think we would lose a lot from doing so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote scarlet_rob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2014 at 9:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Gary Coleman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2014 at 9:31am
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:


I do notice you've had three thanks for this. Presumably because you mentioned Churchill and the War in the first half. I'll only respond to things in the second part to make sure I am not coming across as being in favour of the Nazi occupation of Europe (which, in all seriousness, is quite a different situation to things now).
 
 
Actually I found it quite ironic to use an example of defending our country against fascists in the second world war used as an example to justify voting for the far-right wing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haydn_davies Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2014 at 10:04am
I personally think that the votes UKIP had were more of a protest against too many European laws and directives this country has to adhere to, as well as mass immigration into this country by people coming here purely to claim benefits.

I may be wrong though...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertaf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2014 at 10:20am
Originally posted by Gary Coleman Gary Coleman wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:


I do notice you've had three thanks for this. Presumably because you mentioned Churchill and the War in the first half. I'll only respond to things in the second part to make sure I am not coming across as being in favour of the Nazi occupation of Europe (which, in all seriousness, is quite a different situation to things now).
 

 
Actually I found it quite ironic to use an example of defending our country against fascists in the second world war used as an example to justify voting for the far-right wing. 

You misunderstood my reference. Britain was, by modern standards quite a racist country in those days even though it would maybe not consider itself as such. I can't see why saying ` listen guys we are full up, no more in` is considered racist. Are Australia, NZ and Canada racist as they won't let anyone in unless they want them? Racism, sectarianism, nationalism, all very similar when you cut it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertaf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2014 at 10:26am
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by supertaf supertaf wrote:

All people want is Britain back where it was. Were we racist when Churchill was PM? By definition, probably we were as we put Britain first and fought literally on the beaches to keep it that way. We didn't want foreign rule but we have ended up with it through the EU. If anyone thinks leaving the EU is bad, check out Norway and Switzerland - they aren't doing too bad as it happens. Saying no more immigrants isn't racist, it's just honest and sensible.


I do notice you've had three thanks for this. Presumably because you mentioned Churchill and the War in the first half. I'll only respond to things in the second part to make sure I am not coming across as being in favour of the Nazi occupation of Europe (which, in all seriousness, is quite a different situation to things now).

There is a definite pro and con to being in the EU - completely accept this and this is what me starting the thread was interested to find out more about (ignoring my jokes about racism - lets move on from that). I like different countries and cultures and think the rich should help the poor. So I am in favour of remaining in the EU as it's really important to make sure emerging nations get support.

The point I make is <span style="line-height: 1.4;">Britain has always been open to immigration: I think this is something which adds to our society and culture, not detracts from it. In fact, the whole notion of "British" is built upon multiple waves of immigration, as Stewart Lee refers to in that video link I posted.</span>

The arguments along the lines of immigrants only being a drain on the system I don't think work as there are by far greater numbers of native UK who fit the same criteria.

This leads into the recent trend of eastern european immigrants taking up the jobs British people simply don't want to do, or well-trained individuals coming across to take up specific roles.

Basically, I struggle to see the actual problems here - of course immigration needs to be regulated carefully - but why to such an extreme level as proposed by UKIP voters and comments along the lines of "<span style="line-height: 1.4;">no more immigrants".</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">
</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">And before anyone has a go at me for not understanding the threat of </span>foreign<span style="line-height: 1.4;"> workers to my livelihood, I work in science where a high </span>proportion<span style="line-height: 1.4;"> of academics and research staff are non-British. For example, I work in a lab run by two Irish professors, with Postdocs/PhD students from: UK (3), Portugal (1), Spain (2), China (1), Thailand (1), Malaysia (1), Germany (1), Sweden (1). (So 23% UK) And you know what..... I quite like that and think we have all learned a lot from each other.</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">
</span>
Isolation from Europe is not the answer for Britain in my opinion and I think we would lose a lot from doing so.

A very good post. I think that the issue with immigration is that it hasn't been correctly controlled and hence now, some drastic action should/must be taken. I fully agree that if someone has the skills we need (a la Canada, Australia and NZ), they are welcome to come in but it should be our choice, not the EU). In all honesty, we are token members of the EU anyway after we refused to join the Euro...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sosban bach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2014 at 11:08am
Agree the Aussies do it right. Another lot of British people shipped over for being naughty. No problem with people coming over to work but not at the expense of our country our traditions and our culture. We are far to polite for our own good. Go anywhere else in the world and you have to abide by their ways not demand changes as it's not what your views are. Just imo ofc!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarlet_rob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2014 at 11:50am
UKIP don't do very well in big cities. There people have evidenced immigration and seen that it works and contributes to our society. The Mail and other right wing rags likes to portray immigrants as benefit scroungers or criminals which simply isn't true.

UKIP have their own take on why they don't do very well in London

'...party spokesperson Suzanne Evans has uttered a sound bite Ukip would probably rather forget. Discussing the party's relatively poor performance in London on Radio 4, Evans seemed to agree with the host that they had difficulty appealing to the "educated, cultural and young."'

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2014 at 12:04pm
There's nothing wrong with immigration providing the people coming here have something to offer. What gets me are the ones that come over hoping and living on benefits because it's easier here than in their own country.

Then there are the ones that are fleeing the tyrannical reign in their county only to come here and try and change our country to be like theirs.

There should be certain rules that should be followed when wanting to come to this country to live. 
1. speak the language.
2. Have something to offer in the way of a profession. Ie. Be a tradesman/person
3. Be prepared to integrate
Not necessarily in that order but you get the idea.
There's probably a few more things that we could think up but they are just the basics.
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