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UKIP and the rise of the right

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MikeM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2014 at 9:10pm
Originally posted by OwainLlanedi OwainLlanedi wrote:

Originally posted by MikeM MikeM wrote:

There's nothing wrong with immigration providing the people coming here have something to offer. What gets me are the ones that come over hoping and living on benefits because it's easier here than in their own country.

Then there are the ones that are fleeing the tyrannical reign in their county only to come here and try and change our country to be like theirs.

There should be certain rules that should be followed when wanting to come to this country to live. 
1. speak the language.
2. Have something to offer in the way of a profession. Ie. Be a tradesman/person
3. Be prepared to integrate
Not necessarily in that order but you get the idea.
There's probably a few more things that we could think up but they are just the basics.


Shouldn't it be a fundamental human right to speak the language you choose and to live your life by your values amongst your own community should you choose do so?

Try and change our country to be like theirs? I take it this is the conspiracy theory that we'll all be living by Sharia law in 10 years time and exclusively eating Halal meat? Always enjoyed those exposes by the red tops.

I'm not saying they should abandon their language. All I'm saying is that they should learn the language. It helps them to get on better in the community that's all.

They should integrate in the community and become part of it.

Did I mention Sharia, Muslims and Halal. No I didn't so please don't assume that is what I mean but if any immigrant wants to live in this country they should live by our laws and rules.

The problem is that when a lot of people from the same country come to live here they tend to collect together in the same area therefore creating their own little community.



Edited by MikeM - 27 May 2014 at 9:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2014 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by MikeM MikeM wrote:

Originally posted by OwainLlanedi OwainLlanedi wrote:

Originally posted by MikeM MikeM wrote:

There's nothing wrong with immigration providing the people coming here have something to offer. What gets me are the ones that come over hoping and living on benefits because it's easier here than in their own country.

Then there are the ones that are fleeing the tyrannical reign in their county only to come here and try and change our country to be like theirs.

There should be certain rules that should be followed when wanting to come to this country to live. 
1. speak the language.
2. Have something to offer in the way of a profession. Ie. Be a tradesman/person
3. Be prepared to integrate
Not necessarily in that order but you get the idea.
There's probably a few more things that we could think up but they are just the basics.


Shouldn't it be a fundamental human right to speak the language you choose and to live your life by your values amongst your own community should you choose do so?

Try and change our country to be like theirs? I take it this is the conspiracy theory that we'll all be living by Sharia law in 10 years time and exclusively eating Halal meat? Always enjoyed those exposes by the red tops.

I'm not saying they should abandon their language. All I'm saying is that they should learn the language. It helps them to get on better in the community that's all.

They should integrate in the community and become part of it.

Did I mention Sharia, Muslims and Halal. No I didn't so please don't assume that is what I mean but if any immigrant wants to live in this country they should live by our laws and rules.

The problem is that when a lot of people from the same country come to live here they tend to collect together in the same area therefore creating their own little community.


That's human nature: ex-pats tend also to befriend ex-pats and there are mini colonies of British ex-pats in numerous places, Spain, France, Patagonia etc. It's an immediate connection and so easier to make friends. Another thing is that these isolated little communities can actually be created due to hostility, even racism, from the indigenous people. This is what happened with some Indian and Pakistani communities in Britain a while ago, as I understand things. For it to become "us and them" can be the fault of both "us" and "them" is my point.

I do agree with adhering to local laws of course, unless if in Saudi Arabia, and attempts be made to learn the local language, but care is needed over how this is done as I do not agree with forcing integration. There's a wide variety of ways to live and we can co-exist. If I went to live somewhere and they forced me to adopt to their culture (e.g. if I went to the deep south in the US and I had to marry my cousin and start preachin' Jesus) then that would piss me off. Integration also takes time and learning a new language isn't easy for some: it can often take until the next generation before this occurs - and, even then, things evolve and it's not fixed point of reference. Most British kids all sound like sooooo totally American now I'm all like "wow, are we like, even like British any more?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2014 at 2:12am
No real range of policies as such, some un-savoury fringes to their ideology, but the party cannot be dismissed.

They may only get a seat or two in a General Election, but will have a significant say in many constituencies, so in that respect they will have a notable influence on the future political landscape.

I see some good in this , no question that the main parties didn't see this recent set of results coming and were complacent as a consequence...they will need to urgently review their policies...politicians obliged to sharpen their pencils is never a bad thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lofty evans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2014 at 8:20am
Their rise could be related to a new survey that highlights the rising tide of prejudice across Britain. Interestingly its not joe blog manual worker but the educated professionals which have the largest slice.

On another note 5 million children are facing poverty in this Country with all these wonderful reforms.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Abbey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2014 at 9:13am
What I will concede is that the subject of immigration should have been discussed in an adult fashion when it was obvious that it was a concern to many (whichever side of the argument is correct). As it was brushed under the carpet, we've seen the rise of extreme views becoming accepted.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geordie scarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2014 at 10:51am

Unfortunately society dictates we only focus on the bad things, yes there are gangs of all races who do not abide by our laws , abuse the benefit system,  but on the flip side there are members of all races who take on menial jobs, work hard and if out of work, are actively seeking to work - we all know which is more news worthy !

As for abusing a system, the elite (use that word lightly) who abuse the taxation system, are in my view just as bad as the one,s abusing the benefits system
 
Immigration is an issue , benefit tourism in my view mainly,  but so are many other things and this country would be a whole lot better off, if the whole system was revamped ...trouble is who would you have to sort it out. I look at all the parties and it,s more a question of who you don,t want elected, rather than who you want elected
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Abbey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2014 at 7:27am
Good article in today's Times pointing out that 73% of those who voted didn't put their cross next to UKIP. When you consider that only a third of those eligible actually voted, that means that just 9% of the UK electorate gave their vote to UKIP. Hardly an earth shattering demonstration of a lurch towards them.

Even fewer voted for them in the council elections where 17% voted UKIP or under 6% of those eligible.

When you think that the turnout at the last general election was 65% (double that of the European), many of the 91% of the electorate who didn't vote for UKIP will return to the polling booth.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertaf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2014 at 11:03am
Originally posted by OwainLlanedi OwainLlanedi wrote:

I've always found the immigration question to be purposely sensationalised by the right, and comments on this thread kind of reflect the polarised views on the issue. The Churchill WWII analogy does leave me cold, and the propaganda of the plucky Brits standing up for the free world alone totally misleading. Immigration has long been a source for social and economic good for Wales and other countries of the UK, whose positive effects outweigh any perceived sense of "taking advantage of the system".

For me, the biggest problem with a Welsh UKIP vote is that isolation from Europe really could be devastating for the Welsh economy, which makes the high percentage of UKIP votes in impoverished areas of the South Wales Valleys even more shocking. The irony of a populist vote for an ex-banker who wishes to directly remove sources of investment to Wales doesn't seem to have reached certain areas of Wales.

2 responses to a good post Owain - Britain fought to stay British not just to defeat the Nazis. We were fighting against being controlled by another country - see any similarities to now? If you had lived in those days (which I didn't either), you would have seen that Britain was fairly racist in fact and anyone non British was treated like a second class citizen whether we admit it of not.
Second point, while you make a good point about UKIP and the Welsh economy, are you therefore saying that no one who voted for UKIP has the intelligence to consider your points or are they just blindly following a dream?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Abbey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2014 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by supertaf supertaf wrote:

Originally posted by OwainLlanedi OwainLlanedi wrote:

I've always found the immigration question to be purposely sensationalised by the right, and comments on this thread kind of reflect the polarised views on the issue. The Churchill WWII analogy does leave me cold, and the propaganda of the plucky Brits standing up for the free world alone totally misleading. Immigration has long been a source for social and economic good for Wales and other countries of the UK, whose positive effects outweigh any perceived sense of "taking advantage of the system".

For me, the biggest problem with a Welsh UKIP vote is that isolation from Europe really could be devastating for the Welsh economy, which makes the high percentage of UKIP votes in impoverished areas of the South Wales Valleys even more shocking. The irony of a populist vote for an ex-banker who wishes to directly remove sources of investment to Wales doesn't seem to have reached certain areas of Wales.

2 responses to a good post Owain - Britain fought to stay British not just to defeat the Nazis. We were fighting against being controlled by another country - see any similarities to now? If you had lived in those days (which I didn't either), you would have seen that Britain was fairly racist in fact and anyone non British was treated like a second class citizen whether we admit it of not.
Second point, while you make a good point about UKIP and the Welsh economy, are you therefore saying that no one who voted for UKIP has the intelligence to consider your points or are they just blindly following a dream?


The problem with Britain fighting to stay British is pertinent but out of context.

Britain will wither if it were to try and stand alone on the workd's stage unless it really did become like Switzerland and live off banking. Seeing that the country, and indeed the entire world, has almost collapsed after a crisis caused by high risk banking (remember, we're seeing mortgages being offered in London at x17 people's salaries), I'm not sure if it is stable to stake the whole country's future on the banks in today's world.
Someone else mentioned Norway - fine, but the voters of the UK have shown time and again that they will vote for any party that offers low taxation, so I can't see anyone agreeing to a Scandinavian high taxation lifestyle.

European Union is a fine idea if it develops along economic lines. The reason I said that the "keep Britain British" rhetoric was out of context is that it should be used to fight a federal Europe. The reason I find that idea worrying is that the proponents of this idea (mainly the French and German politicians) do so whilst flying to places like China in the name of Germany and France and not Europe. Angela Merkel is hardly likely to go to Beijing and cut deals for Slovakian workers before those in the heartlands of industrial Germany. And as for the priorities of the French government when it comes to farming........

Better to stay and fight for a less bloated Europe where we trade as one voice but have our separate parliaments and identity. Surely the UK model of devolved government is better than a huge monolith in Brussels?

We have to realise that the world in 1939-45 is a far cry from the globalisation of today - it simply didn't exist back then and it's pointless harking back to it.

I'd rather engage with the argument, which is the problem with UKIP as they their attendance rates in the European Parliament is pathetic.



Edited by Abbey - 29 May 2014 at 12:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LLANDRE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2014 at 5:44pm
Nice to see the people of Carmarthenshire sticking to there guns with Plaid being the votes within the county. Carmarthen has never been swayed by the general trends of so many. Carmarthen gave us Gwynfor Evans as there first MP and also it was Carmarthen that gave us the Assembly. If Dafydd Wigley hadnt been shafted i suspect they might have gained a lot more across the board.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OwainLlanedi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2014 at 10:50pm
The UKIP representative on the Question Time panel has represented the vacuous and empty drivel this party stands for within 2 minutes. Really scary that this rabble has garnered any support.

Edited by OwainLlanedi - 29 May 2014 at 11:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote BlackwoodScarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2014 at 11:24pm
Originally posted by OwainLlanedi OwainLlanedi wrote:

The UKIP representative on the Question Time panel has represented the vacuous and empty drivel this party stands for within 2 minutes. Really scary that this rabble has garnered any support.

Never mind UkIP on question time, they have that horrible thug Joey Barton on there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LLANDRE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2014 at 7:42am
Lots of the immigrants are doing jobs that the people of this country are not prepared to do. .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2014 at 11:00am
Look at the choices people had vote for Labour Party who bankrupted the country and joked about it letter left on treasury desk saying good luck all money gone and who had a prime minister who misslead parliament though I call it lying and I responsible for us entering an illegal war. A labour paryy who bave ruined the NHS in Wales. The conservatives who represent about 10 % of the population and look after their own. The liberal democrats who don't know what they stand for and are currently the puppets of the Tories. Look at all the scandals involving our politicians I it no wonder then that when somebody comes along with a populist agenda then people will sit up and take notice.
As for the people of Carmarthen being responsible for us having the Welsh assembly then that is hardly anything to be proud of as the waste of public money by the assembly is bordering on the criminal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2014 at 11:23am



Edited by Why - 30 May 2014 at 11:34am
She asks why i still can't answer. I guess its in the blood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redeyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2014 at 11:32am
Originally posted by OwainLlanedi OwainLlanedi wrote:

The UKIP representative on the Question Time panel has represented the vacuous and empty drivel this party stands for within 2 minutes. Really scary that this rabble has garnered any support.

I would suggest it's more of a protest vote against the rest rather than support for UKIP.

The acid test will be the general election next year, don't bet on them having more than two or three seats in parliament. Saying that, I really hope of of the clowns knock on my door!!!LOL
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