Scarlet Fever Llanelli Rugby Sport Wales Tickets Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > RUGBY > GENERAL RUGBY
  New Posts New Posts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login


Ulster release duo

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
Message
GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 01 December 2014
Location: Rhydcymerau
Status: Offline
Points: 7022
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 April 2018 at 12:00pm
None of us can argue that guilty or not the two men in question didn't act anywhere near how you would hope your son would act. I would also hope that my daughter would not have acted in the way the lady in question acted but to become the subject of puerile comment and lewd innuendo was not deserved and painted everyone involved in a very bad light. 
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
sgsmorgan View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar
LAVERYS ON THE RIGHT

Joined: 25 August 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2953
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote sgsmorgan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 April 2018 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by Airdaa Airdaa wrote:

Mob rule and social media have played there part definitely.It wasn't helped by the court case running in parralel with the run up the referendum in the Republic on the 8th Amendment and the lifting the total ban on abortion.
As you will have seen in the Brexit and scots independence Referendums all sorts of people come out of the woodwork. Whilst most sponsors have with held from public comments you don't know what has been said behind closed doors and the IRFU have never been known for their open approach.
Only one sponsor chose to take the high morale ground, the Bank ofIreland whose own morality with fines for money laundering, and who were caught out not passing oninterest rate reduction to mortgage holders, along with
Oneof the biggest Bailouts of any bank in Europe hardly gives them the high ground.
Whilst. I can't speak for all Ulster supporters the feeling is that the two boys have been punished enough by the trial
And suspension. They have made public apologises and the trial found them not guilty so they should be reinstated. Personally I think that neither side of the trial showed up particularly well. As for the messages thy just go to show the perils of the internet. My own youth was pre internet but I am sure that some of the comments between the "lads" in the pub in private would not look good as a text


Agree with this wholeheartedly. These boys were hounded out of their jobs and their livelihoods by nothing more than naked raw mob rule. There is now so much in the way of hypocrisy going on it is untrue.

We'd all be wise to stay well out of it but........ the FACTS that we know about in this case ( all else is conjecture and "he said, she said etc etc" ) are that two guys were charged under correct UK Criminal Law and found NOT GUILTY.

Now we all might have our views on what we thought went on and the corresponding exchange of texts and "supposed" jokes but the facts are this. The girl "alleged" she was raped, a criminal investigation resulting in a trial was carried out and the boys were found after an extensive and long drawn out trial to be innocent of all charges brought before the Court of Law. Not only that but the Jury found them not guilty in almost record time considering the length and complexity of the trial.

Financially the boys have suffered tremendously (for a crime where they wound not guilty - where's the compensation?) and in one case this has apparently almost driven one family either to the brink or into Bankruptcy.

All over charges of which their son was found innocent and not guilty?

Now taking the above FACTS out of the way. We move onto the area of Moral sensibilities and "right and proper behavior" which is where we are all by and large in agreement that this falls well below standards that we would all like to see. But that is different.

If we all find ourselves in the situation where we ignore the Rule of Law but decide to govern ourselves on conjecture, thought and misinformation then we find ourselves on a slippery slope.

In the case of Northern Ireland, we have a Government (or "non" more accurately) that has former "gun toting bombers and terrorists" on one side and absolute crooks and idiots on the other with their noses so far down the Public Sector Trough it is obscene. We have  Politicians getting paid for jobs they don't do, we have extended and above average waiting lists in the Health Sector and an Education Sector suffering undue pressure and cuts because a bunch of blithering idiots can't get their "sh1T" together and agree on a language act.

But, we can take time out to hound out of a a job two guys actually found innocent and not guilty of the charges they were indicted on?

The Lunatics are well and truly in control of the Asylum.

Now we'd be well advised to close this and other threads on this topic as feelings are running high and people are making misinformed comments powered on ignorance, disinformation and what they think should have happened not the FACTS.

This can lead to the folks behind Scarlet fever and/or the posters themselves being sued for defamation.




Edited by sgsmorgan - 15 April 2018 at 1:02pm
Back to Top
Mugwuffin View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 24 July 2010
Location: Llanelli
Status: Offline
Points: 5607
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mugwuffin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 April 2018 at 12:00am
Originally posted by crj89 crj89 wrote:

They were found not guilty, but that does not make them innocent.

It does in the eyes of the law. The jury were unanimous in their verdict. It was the verdict I expected from reading the evidence released by the press as the trial progressed.

Back to Top
John View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 15 August 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 4185
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 April 2018 at 10:57am
They were and are innocent- yes. But their behaviour was stupid, sordid and arrogant. It has brought pressure on their employers from a whole variety of sources- sponsors, feminists, former greats of the game and supporters. They were also unavailable for selection for a long period, a factor in the departure of Les Kiss perhaps. There is a world of difference between their awful behaviour and good behaviour and for that reason alone it was probably impossible for them to be kept on.

They will move elsewhere, lose their international career but continue to be paid a very good salary- perhaps more than they would have received from Ulster. Olding is already linked to Exeter. So they are hardly going to be cast out into the wastes of unemployment. When all is said and done, that is hardly suffering.


Back to Top
Fscarlet View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 26 January 2015
Status: Offline
Points: 2285
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2018 at 8:50am
Sale have confirmed that despite rumours, they will not be signing Jackson & Olding.

The links to Sale signing the pair caused unrest among season ticket holders.
Back to Top
sgsmorgan View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar
LAVERYS ON THE RIGHT

Joined: 25 August 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2953
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sgsmorgan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2018 at 9:03am
Originally posted by John John wrote:

They were and are innocent- yes. But their behaviour was stupid, sordid and arrogant. It has brought pressure on their employers from a whole variety of sources- sponsors, feminists, former greats of the game and supporters. They were also unavailable for selection for a long period, a factor in the departure of Les Kiss perhaps. There is a world of difference between their awful behaviour and good behaviour and for that reason alone it was probably impossible for them to be kept on.

They will move elsewhere, lose their international career but continue to be paid a very good salary- perhaps more than they would have received from Ulster. Olding is already linked to Exeter. So they are hardly going to be cast out into the wastes of unemployment. When all is said and done, that is hardly suffering.




The last conversation I had with someone who knew the Olding family well was that they were having to file for Bankruptcy (or had due to not being able to afford the legal fees) now I don't want to restart this topic or cause a flame war but when supporting your son who is found Not Guilty in the eyes of the law forces you as a family into Bankruptcy so that you lose virtually everything - for a crime your son was found Not Guilty over.... please stop this..."they aren't suffering" or haven't suffered malarkey.

The Boys were stupid, daft and "bang out of order" but..... bankruptcy is one hell of a price to pay for supporting your kid when he's screwed up.

Just ask some of the dads on this forum how they'd feel?
Back to Top
GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 01 December 2014
Location: Rhydcymerau
Status: Offline
Points: 7022
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2018 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by sgsmorgan sgsmorgan wrote:

Originally posted by John John wrote:

They were and are innocent- yes. But their behaviour was stupid, sordid and arrogant. It has brought pressure on their employers from a whole variety of sources- sponsors, feminists, former greats of the game and supporters. They were also unavailable for selection for a long period, a factor in the departure of Les Kiss perhaps. There is a world of difference between their awful behaviour and good behaviour and for that reason alone it was probably impossible for them to be kept on.

They will move elsewhere, lose their international career but continue to be paid a very good salary- perhaps more than they would have received from Ulster. Olding is already linked to Exeter. So they are hardly going to be cast out into the wastes of unemployment. When all is said and done, that is hardly suffering.




The last conversation I had with someone who knew the Olding family well was that they were having to file for Bankruptcy (or had due to not being able to afford the legal fees) now I don't want to restart this topic or cause a flame war but when supporting your son who is found Not Guilty in the eyes of the law forces you as a family into Bankruptcy so that you lose virtually everything - for a crime your son was found Not Guilty over.... please stop this..."they aren't suffering" or haven't suffered malarkey.

The Boys were stupid, daft and "bang out of order" but..... bankruptcy is one hell of a price to pay for supporting your kid when he's screwed up.

Just ask some of the dads on this forum how they'd feel?

That fact shows very clearly what is wrong with our legal system. Whoever decided to bring this case - probably the CPS should cover the defendants costs if found not guilty. I can tell SGS that you feel very strongly about this matter & are in a far better position geographically than most to give an accurate comment. The stance taken by many potential employers of these two players - Claremont, Gloucester & Sale to my knowledge smacks of following the mob to me. Whatever happened to someone being given a 2nd chance. Employing Jackson or Olding may not result in armageddon for the club involved - it just may show them to be well principled and human if the PR was handled properly. 

On the playing side, of course, they would be getting proven ability at below market value. 
Back to Top
KID A View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Cardiff
Status: Offline
Points: 26425
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2018 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Whoever decided to bring this case - probably the CPS should cover the defendants costs if found not guilty.


Not sure I agree with that. Should the CPS / police service cover the costs of every defendant found not guilty in a court? If not, why is this case special?
Back to Top
sgsmorgan View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar
LAVERYS ON THE RIGHT

Joined: 25 August 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2953
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sgsmorgan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2018 at 12:31pm
You're right I do feel strongly about this issue for a number of reasons.

OK what the guys did was morally reprehensible but (and I do have my own very accurate sources on this) they are being hung out to dry and roasted in the Court of ill informed Public Opinion for what?

Being found not guilty of a crime.

Now the majority of the voracity of the lynch mob is coming from the Republic of Ireland where....if this had been committed no one would have found out as no one would have been revealed in Public as they have a much stronger right of Privacy.

Listen, no one is perfect and a good 95% of what has been said on this case is hearsay and ill informed and regurgitated rumour but it is being taken up by loads of people as FACT when it is not.

If my son ever made this mistake/error of judgement then I'd be beside myself if I thought that it was going to mean almost the end of his career.

Conversely if I had a daughter who'd been part of this whole sordid mess then I'd be beside myself with rage and grief but whether that would be enough to hound two guys found innocent of this out of a job is another thing.

I do wish people would stop this "they may be not guilty but that doesn't mean to say they're innocent"

It does.

In our Judicial System if you are found not guilty then in the eyes of the law at THAT TIME you are indeed innocent until proven guilty.

Any club that does pick up on these guys will get cut price bargains...good quality players for a knock down fee.

I think France would be a good destination for these guys that would allow them to concentrate on getting back to what they love i.e playing out of the limelight and leave the hysterical baying Irish back to stew in their own hypocritical juices.
Back to Top
sgsmorgan View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar
LAVERYS ON THE RIGHT

Joined: 25 August 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2953
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sgsmorgan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2018 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Whoever decided to bring this case - probably the CPS should cover the defendants costs if found not guilty.


Not sure I agree with that. Should the CPS / police service cover the costs of every defendant found not guilty in a court? If not, why is this case special?


If the defendants are found not guilty then yes they should have their costs reimbursed or at least be eligible for some of their costs to be met under Legal Aid.

Why should they suffer financially for something that the Courts found that they didn't do?
Back to Top
KID A View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Cardiff
Status: Offline
Points: 26425
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2018 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by sgsmorgan sgsmorgan wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Whoever decided to bring this case - probably the CPS should cover the defendants costs if found not guilty.


Not sure I agree with that. Should the CPS / police service cover the costs of every defendant found not guilty in a court? If not, why is this case special?


If the defendants are found not guilty then yes they should have their costs reimbursed or at least be eligible for some of their costs to be met under Legal Aid.

Why should they suffer financially for something that the Courts found that they didn't do?


As a taxpayer, I personally wouldn't be happy to fund the legal costs of this particular case. The authorities clearly thought they had evidence to prosecute a crime. Sometimes these cases get proven, sometimes they don't.

For the taxpayer to fund all the ones that don't, seems a bit much.
Back to Top
SA14 View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Don't blink

Joined: 15 August 2004
Location: Pemberton
Status: Offline
Points: 19973
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SA14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2018 at 1:08pm
They may be innocent in a court of law but did anyone read the text messages they exchanged? I suggest people look it up and read it. It’s disgusting.
Back to Top
sgsmorgan View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar
LAVERYS ON THE RIGHT

Joined: 25 August 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2953
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sgsmorgan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2018 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by sgsmorgan sgsmorgan wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Whoever decided to bring this case - probably the CPS should cover the defendants costs if found not guilty.


Not sure I agree with that. Should the CPS / police service cover the costs of every defendant found not guilty in a court? If not, why is this case special?


If the defendants are found not guilty then yes they should have their costs reimbursed or at least be eligible for some of their costs to be met under Legal Aid.

Why should they suffer financially for something that the Courts found that they didn't do?


As a taxpayer, I personally wouldn't be happy to fund the legal costs of this particular case. The authorities clearly thought they had evidence to prosecute a crime. Sometimes these cases get proven, sometimes they don't.

For the taxpayer to fund all the ones that don't, seems a bit much.


The Authorities in the eyes of the Judge and complete Jury (the real arbiters of truth and justice) were clearly wrong so why should these guys suffer financially for something a Judge and Jury clearly found they weren't guilty of?

What's happening here? Are we saying that actually we're not going to pay their fees because we didn't like what they said in their conversations on Whatsapp?

Very rocky pathway here. One persons distaste for what was said is another persons "joshing and crude banter"..can't decide on who pays what based on comments on Whatsapp.

The fact is the guys were arrested, hauled into court and found....Not Guilty?

Why should they have to pay for the CPS's screw ups?
Back to Top
KID A View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Cardiff
Status: Offline
Points: 26425
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2018 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by sgsmorgan sgsmorgan wrote:



The Authorities in the eyes of the Judge and complete Jury (the real arbiters of truth and justice) were clearly wrong so why should these guys suffer financially for something a Judge and Jury clearly found they weren't guilty of?

What's happening here? Are we saying that actually we're not going to pay their fees because we didn't like what they said in their conversations on Whatsapp?

Very rocky pathway here. One persons distaste for what was said is another persons "joshing and crude banter"..can't decide on who pays what based on comments on Whatsapp.

The fact is the guys were arrested, hauled into court and found....Not Guilty?

Why should they have to pay for the CPS's screw ups?


The state can pay legal aid costs I believe but once someone hires hot shot lawyers that charge way in excess of what normal fees are, then it's sort of understandable that the costs won't be repaid.

It's not a nice choice to make I appreciate that....hire the best, expensive lawyer you can find to give you the best chance of winning - or hire one that is cheaper that you might be reimbursed for should you win the case.

An unfortunate case all round.
Back to Top
John View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 15 August 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 4185
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2018 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by sgsmorgan sgsmorgan wrote:

Originally posted by John John wrote:

They were and are innocent- yes. But their behaviour was stupid, sordid and arrogant. It has brought pressure on their employers from a whole variety of sources- sponsors, feminists, former greats of the game and supporters. They were also unavailable for selection for a long period, a factor in the departure of Les Kiss perhaps. There is a world of difference between their awful behaviour and good behaviour and for that reason alone it was probably impossible for them to be kept on.

They will move elsewhere, lose their international career but continue to be paid a very good salary- perhaps more than they would have received from Ulster. Olding is already linked to Exeter. So they are hardly going to be cast out into the wastes of unemployment. When all is said and done, that is hardly suffering.




The last conversation I had with someone who knew the Olding family well was that they were having to file for Bankruptcy (or had due to not being able to afford the legal fees) now I don't want to restart this topic or cause a flame war but when supporting your son who is found Not Guilty in the eyes of the law forces you as a family into Bankruptcy so that you lose virtually everything - for a crime your son was found Not Guilty over.... please stop this..."they aren't suffering" or haven't suffered malarkey.

The Boys were stupid, daft and "bang out of order" but..... bankruptcy is one hell of a price to pay for supporting your kid when he's screwed up.

Just ask some of the dads on this forum how they'd feel?


I'll withdraw the comment but purely on the basis that they haven't found paid employment in their profession yet. When I wrote it, it did really seem that they would be straight into another job at a salary well into six figures. If you were to ask my opinion, it is that they ought to be able to find gainful employment in rugby for the start of next season. But one thing I am not aware of is how much contrition they have shown because as others have said, it was their boasting afterwards that makes it very difficult for any club to take them on. And they really do need to make clear to any future employer that their basic attitude has changed.

I'm a father and if my son had shown as much disrespect for women, yes I might well have paid for his legal fees but I'd expect a complete attitude change before I even spoke to him again.He'd have to grovel alot.
Back to Top
GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 01 December 2014
Location: Rhydcymerau
Status: Offline
Points: 7022
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2018 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by sgsmorgan sgsmorgan wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Whoever decided to bring this case - probably the CPS should cover the defendants costs if found not guilty.


Not sure I agree with that. Should the CPS / police service cover the costs of every defendant found not guilty in a court? If not, why is this case special?


If the defendants are found not guilty then yes they should have their costs reimbursed or at least be eligible for some of their costs to be met under Legal Aid.

Why should they suffer financially for something that the Courts found that they didn't do?


As a taxpayer, I personally wouldn't be happy to fund the legal costs of this particular case. The authorities clearly thought they had evidence to prosecute a crime. Sometimes these cases get proven, sometimes they don't.

For the taxpayer to fund all the ones that don't, seems a bit much.

The CPS have brought over 900 rape cases in the last 18 months which they have had to reconsider in the light of the recent case of a University student who eventually got his hands on the evidence which the Police withheld during the 2 year build up to the case. If the CPS wrongfully bring a case - and the defendant/s are found not guilty then the taxpayer should foot the bill. As SGS has correctly questioned - why should Olding's family go bankrupt?
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.04
Copyright ©2001-2015 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.