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Use of the TMO

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John View Drop Down
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    Posted: 29 October 2016 at 10:56am
This query stems from a couple of incidents in last nights game- yupp we know them but I'll keep the questions general.

We know that the officials on the field can refer to the TMO at any point and quite often do for matters other than foul play or the award of a try (for instance how to restart the game) but:

1. If a player alleges there has been foul play against him to the referee, is the referee obliged to make the TMO review the incident?

2. For an incident not foul play, can a player ask for a TMO review of a passage of play, principally to reverse a wrong decision?  
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ap sior View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ap sior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2016 at 11:28am
I'd add to that shouldn't the TMO intervene when there is an obvious mistake? Didn't see the game but it seems that the incident to YC A Shingler was a complete error/mistake.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mogwen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2016 at 12:37pm
And the punch on elias from myhill!! He even told the ref "I've been punched" laughable decision making
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ap sior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2016 at 2:34pm
Originally posted by Mogwen Mogwen wrote:

And the punch on elias from myhill!! He even told the ref "I've been punched" laughable decision making

I'm sure there'll be a citing for that.

However isn't the TMo supposed to draw the attention of the ref to instances of foul play ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2016 at 3:17pm
I don't think the referee is obliged to go to the TMO, but they can always ask the TMO just to check, whilst play is ongoing.

Nigel Owens ignoring Pascal Pape's accusation of a punch by Sean O'Brien is an example of when the referee should have gone to TMO as O'Brien was suspended for it. But I guess it encourages players to make more accusations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2016 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by Mogwen Mogwen wrote:

And the punch on elias from myhill!! He even told the ref "I've been punched" laughable decision making


I'm sure there'll be a citing for that.

However isn't the TMo supposed to draw the attention of the ref to instances of foul play ?


what minute in the match was this punch?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mogwen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2016 at 3:34pm
At end of first half during scrumathon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2016 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by Mogwen Mogwen wrote:

At end of first half during scrumathon.


Can't see it anywhere on the footage
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mogwen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2016 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Mogwen Mogwen wrote:

At end of first half during scrumathon.


Can't see it anywhere on the footage


Elias comes up from a scrum(don't know which one) , there a scuffle, his nose is bleeding and he tells the ref and shows the ref that he's been punched. Ref did nothing
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ExileTom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2016 at 6:10pm
A good example of the TMO being used after an intervention would be the high tackle on Jonny Mcnicholl today. The touch judge suggested to the ref to go up to TMO and he rightly reversed the penalty and awarded a yellow card. I'd say we have a problem in the pro12 with how passive the touch judges are at times, rarely seeing them step in to advise the ref. Linton clearly needed help last night
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 October 2016 at 10:39am
Watching Brive v Clermont yesterday, The third Clermont try from Nakataci (spelling?) caused referral to the TMO. It was awarded when the TV couldn't show any separation of the hand from the ball, even though the ball bounced away with great height and distance.

A physics question, can you get downwards pressure on the ball when it's in contact with the ground and the ball still travel a long way after, other than by perfect timing? Andy Goode wasn't convinced it was a try and thought he'd lost control. However, due to lack of TV camera operator skill, the best angle showed nothing of the hand and ball, just the arm and body of the player.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 October 2016 at 12:35pm
Elias makes his allegation to the Referee at 35.15 on the game clock. Watch Parkes looking at the referee at the same time. If ever a player was assessing the referee for what he is, that was it. And that is why Parkes is a leader and should be our captain. You can't actually see any punch, just the reaction to it.

Scarletman's link is so full of legaleese as to be impenetrable but it seems to imply that the TMO cannot draw the ref's attention to foul play, just to a minor offence that might invalidate a try. And that surely is wrong (and being widely ignored but not on friday?)

But the fourth bullet point in the guiding principles would seem to be a complete shambles. At the very least, Poite and Linton need to have a discussion at length as to why they make so completely different uses of the TMO.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haydn_davies Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 October 2016 at 3:41pm
Key for me:-

Any of the match officials, including the TMO, may recommend a review by the TMO. The reviews will take place in accordance with TMO protocol in place at the time which will be available on worldrugby.org/laws
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 October 2016 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by haydn_davies haydn_davies wrote:

Key for me:-

Any of the match officials, including the TMO, may recommend a review by the TMO. The reviews will take place in accordance with TMO protocol in place at the time which will be available on worldrugby.org/laws


Surely one of the linesmen or the TMO saw the Shingler fiasco and had to step in.There are newspapers in Australia and New Zealand carrying the story and it makes the Pro12 look embarrassing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 October 2016 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Watching Brive v Clermont yesterday, The third Clermont try from Nakataci (spelling?) caused referral to the TMO. It was awarded when the TV couldn't show any separation of the hand from the ball, even though the ball bounced away with great height and distance.

A physics question, can you get downwards pressure on the ball when it's in contact with the ground and the ball still travel a long way after, other than by perfect timing? Andy Goode wasn't convinced it was a try and thought he'd lost control. However, due to lack of TV camera operator skill, the best angle showed nothing of the hand and ball, just the arm and body of the player.

The Law in Rugby Union doesn't mention downward pressure. It only quotes "Grounding the Ball" !

It only has to touch the ground on or over the line whilst the attacking player is in contact with the ball !
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