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wage inflation in rugby !

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ap sior View Drop Down
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    Posted: 02 December 2018 at 9:01pm
When he spoke at the CRYS16 AGM this year, Mark Davies told us that wage inflation in rugby is running at 26%.

That's where the money is going. Sadly I feel that too many players see it as a short 'career'. I can only assume therefore that some are trying to earn a lifetime's income in 15 years. 

Perhaps more of them should plan their careers beyond rugby. Jamie Roberts has done so, Gwyn Jones was doing so, AWJ has a law degree, Preistland has a degree, can't remember in what now. There is a life beyond 35, when a rugby career usually ends. 

Perhaps this realisation needs to dawn on some current players.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rob o'r Bont Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 December 2018 at 11:33pm
Why do you think Wage inflation is driven by players?

The key word being 'driven'.
That's the Scarlets, its in their DNA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ladram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 6:14am
Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

When he spoke at the CRYS16 AGM this year, Mark Davies told us that wage inflation in rugby is running at 26%.

That's where the money is going. Sadly I feel that too many players see it as a short 'career'. I can only assume therefore that some are trying to earn a lifetime's income in 15 years. 

Perhaps more of them should plan their careers beyond rugby. Jamie Roberts has done so, Gwyn Jones was doing so, AWJ has a law degree, Preistland has a degree, can't remember in what now. There is a life beyond 35, when a rugby career usually ends. 

Perhaps this realisation needs to dawn on some current players.

think it's accountancy
30th june 1986- 30th june 2011.25 years roofing,i wouldn't call that dodgy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 6:33am
All countries work with some sort of wage cap. Even the French and English.

France’ cap is set at around £10m a year, England’s at £7m ( with the caveat in England that you can have an additional 2 ‘marquee’ players that are over and above the £7m...hence Bristol have the likes of Charles Piatau in that marquee box..he earns £1m on his own).

You will be unlikely to find a Welsh based Welsh player anywhere near the Top 25 earners in NH rugby...and only a small handful in the Top 50 I’d suggest.

But in order to retain its best players the regions do have to be cognisant of these market values...which are playing budgets of between +50-100% of the regions caps.

In all honestly some they win ( North, Moriarty ) and some they lose ( Biggar, Sanjay, Faletau)...that is the same cycle each year...the new project reset, which looks to set new ( low-ish) bands for Welsh players will create some interest....quite conceivable that it could actually encourage players to leave Wales, as they are much lower than market values. But I get the purpose..it’s managing within its resources...admirable.

The IRFU are constantly having to supplement their contracted players to keep pace with market values, and like all governing bodies, are calling out that is not sustainable.

The Welsh and Irish will tend to struggle most because they have been perpetually poorly marketed and attracted far less ‘ media’ income. Thus, although player earnngs are much lower in Wales, they are on a par when compared to turnovers of regions to the likes of England/France.

It’s a very complex issue, but right now, the English and the French clubs continue to set the market boundaries at levels unobtainable by many governing bodies or clubs in other countries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 9:44am
Complex issue it certainly is. When the richest Union in World rugby by some distance - the RFU - announce losses of 30 million for last year then you realise that something is wrong. Only Exeter of the top 12 English clubs don't lose money. The wage inflation is unsustainable unless you have a backer like Bristol Bears who is prepared to lose millions in his pursuit of success. 

I too have often wondered how the IRFU are so successful in retaining their star players. I would hazard a guess that Sexton & Murray are their top earners and they are probably well ahead of anyone in Welsh rugby where I guess AWJ must be one of the if not the biggest earner. How the IRFU raise their money is an interesting topic. Their ground capacity is only around the 50K mark so match day revenues should be way down on Wales. 

One thing they are far better at when compared to Wales is their selection of talent to invest in. They do not hand out crazy deals to players like King, Thornton, Baldwin etc in the form of dual contracts. A seasoned International like Zebo was allowed to leave for France while O'Mahoney was targeted to stay. Hopefully project reset will start to address the many issues we have around financing. I can't help but feel that all regions need to start by addressing the development of young talent. At 20's level Wales are competitive against the Scots & Irish yet, with Leinster in particular it seems that a far greater % of these 20's players find themselves pushing hard for starting spots & going on to excel. Take the recent examples of Jordan Williams, Sam Davies, Leon Brown & Harrison Keddie. All were hugely successful 20's players who would probably have been selected in a combined British & Irish under 20's team at their respective times. 

Now look at Jacob Stockdale, James Ryan, Joey Carbery & Porter. The development of the Irish four has been stratospheric compared to their Welsh counterparts. I appreciate that I am taking a very simplistic view in my comparisons but there must be something about the development pathway which is better in Ireland.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 10:04am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Only Exeter of the top 12 English clubs don't lose money.


Exeter are over £13m in debt.

Quote a backer like Bristol Bears who is prepared to lose millions in his pursuit of success. 


Exactly the same as the Scarlets then.


Quote How the IRFU raise their money is an interesting topic. Their ground capacity is only around the 50K mark so match day revenues should be way down on Wales.


They have fewer grass roots clubs to pay for. They have less of a debt on their national stadium. They've also just sold a piece of land for 27m Euros.

They also have very wealthy individuals paying to keep players in Ireland, like Sexton. But they don't like to talk about that very much.

 
Quote One thing they are far better at when compared to Wales is their selection of talent to invest in. They do not hand out crazy deals to players like King, Thornton, Baldwin etc in the form of dual contracts. A seasoned International like Zebo was allowed to leave for France while O'Mahoney was targeted to stay. Hopefully project reset will start to address the many issues we have around financing. I can't help but feel that all regions need to start by addressing the development of young talent. At 20's level Wales are competitive against the Scots & Irish yet, with Leinster in particular it seems that a far greater % of these 20's players find themselves pushing hard for starting spots & going on to excel. Take the recent examples of Jordan Williams, Sam Davies, Leon Brown & Harrison Keddie. All were hugely successful 20's players who would probably have been selected in a combined British & Irish under 20's team at their respective times. 

Now look at Jacob Stockdale, James Ryan, Joey Carbery & Porter. The development of the Irish four has been stratospheric compared to their Welsh counterparts. I appreciate that I am taking a very simplistic view in my comparisons but there must be something about the development pathway which is better in Ireland.


It's all about having the money to keep them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote M.M. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 10:14am
I'm told that there are tax breaks for players in Ireland too. That;s something that they can do as a independant nation and full member of the EU. Wales cannot. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 10:22am
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Only Exeter of the top 12 English clubs don't lose money.


Exeter are over £13m in debt.

Quote a backer like Bristol Bears who is prepared to lose millions in his pursuit of success. 


Exactly the same as the Scarlets then.


Quote How the IRFU raise their money is an interesting topic. Their ground capacity is only around the 50K mark so match day revenues should be way down on Wales.


They have fewer grass roots clubs to pay for. They have less of a debt on their national stadium. They've also just sold a piece of land for 27m Euros.

They also have very wealthy individuals paying to keep players in Ireland, like Sexton. But they don't like to talk about that very much.

 
Quote One thing they are far better at when compared to Wales is their selection of talent to invest in. They do not hand out crazy deals to players like King, Thornton, Baldwin etc in the form of dual contracts. A seasoned International like Zebo was allowed to leave for France while O'Mahoney was targeted to stay. Hopefully project reset will start to address the many issues we have around financing. I can't help but feel that all regions need to start by addressing the development of young talent. At 20's level Wales are competitive against the Scots & Irish yet, with Leinster in particular it seems that a far greater % of these 20's players find themselves pushing hard for starting spots & going on to excel. Take the recent examples of Jordan Williams, Sam Davies, Leon Brown & Harrison Keddie. All were hugely successful 20's players who would probably have been selected in a combined British & Irish under 20's team at their respective times. 

Now look at Jacob Stockdale, James Ryan, Joey Carbery & Porter. The development of the Irish four has been stratospheric compared to their Welsh counterparts. I appreciate that I am taking a very simplistic view in my comparisons but there must be something about the development pathway which is better in Ireland.


It's all about having the money to keep them.

How does money have anything to do with how well the Irish young players have developed. Surely it is to do with the comparative systems in place. It is pretty clear to me that the Irish have developed young players on the whole better than we have in Wales. 

As for your other answers they are very informative. I did not mean to suggest that Exeter were a profitable club but they were last year; we of course have fantastic benefactors without whom we wouldn't be in existence but the level at which Bristol are financed, along with many other English clubs is light years away from where we are or ever will be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 10:27am
The last point is an attractive attribute for players who stay and play in Ireland for 10 years ( not sure but I think it must be consecutive)...they get a tax rebate at the end of it.
What you can’t quibble about is that Ireland have the most affordable and successful club and international combo in the NH right now. It’s not flawless, players missing local derbies at the behest of the IRFU or being obliged to move from club A to club B to fill positional gaps for the international team development are not popular, but I doubt there is a formula that satisfies all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletnut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 10:32am
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

All countries work with some sort of wage cap. Even the French and English.

France’ cap is set at around £10m a year, England’s at £7m ( with the caveat in England that you can have an additional 2 ‘marquee’ players that are over and above the £7m...hence Bristol have the likes of Charles Piatau in that marquee box..he earns £1m on his own).

You will be unlikely to find a Welsh based Welsh player anywhere near the Top 25 earners in NH rugby...and only a small handful in the Top 50 I’d suggest.

But in order to retain its best players the regions do have to be cognisant of these market values...which are playing budgets of between +50-100% of the regions caps.

In all honestly some they win ( North, Moriarty ) and some they lose ( Biggar, Sanjay, Faletau)...that is the same cycle each year...the new project reset, which looks to set new ( low-ish) bands for Welsh players will create some interest....quite conceivable that it could actually encourage players to leave Wales, as they are much lower than market values. But I get the purpose..it’s managing within its resources...admirable.

The IRFU are constantly having to supplement their contracted players to keep pace with market values, and like all governing bodies, are calling out that is not sustainable.

The Welsh and Irish will tend to struggle most because they have been perpetually poorly marketed and attracted far less ‘ media’ income. Thus, although player earnngs are much lower in Wales, they are on a par when compared to turnovers of regions to the likes of England/France.

It’s a very complex issue, but right now, the English and the French clubs continue to set the market boundaries at levels unobtainable by many governing bodies or clubs in other countries.
Isn't that where the 60 cap law will prove it's worth or otherwise?
I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 10:58am
I'd say it's a strong influencer...but won't be a catchall...as we can see with the likes of Francis at Exeter...clubs evolve some contractual navigational 'tools' that suit both player and club, but still allow country representation ..

I'm sure the Webb experience will have promoted a flurry of Club Managers asking their legal teams for workarounds to the 60 cap rule....it's just the way of things really...clubs will ultimately prevail if they are the primary employer...it's a bit of a pointy subject, and that's just my view (Ireland being the exception).

There is a worry for Wales, in as much with Project Reset, and the demands to control earnings, it will provoke the headstrong, discarded or discontent to move way from Wales in search of substantially higher earnings. A talent void we might find hard to fill.   


Edited by Wil Chips - 03 December 2018 at 11:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 11:11am
Again I have to bow to the Irish way. If we in Wales had had the nerve to declare 5 years ago that we were not going to select anyone to play for Wales who were not in Wales then we wouldn't have gone through this nonsense of 2 or 3 allowed or the 60 cap current rule. I accept that some players would still have chosen to move - Owen, Jamie, Josh & Rhys Priestland probably given their own circumstances but Owen & Josh along with Liam, Webb, Faletau & Francis would be now playing in Wales.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M.M. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 11:12am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Only Exeter of the top 12 English clubs don't lose money.


Exeter are over £13m in debt.

Quote a backer like Bristol Bears who is prepared to lose millions in his pursuit of success. 


Exactly the same as the Scarlets then.


Quote How the IRFU raise their money is an interesting topic. Their ground capacity is only around the 50K mark so match day revenues should be way down on Wales.


They have fewer grass roots clubs to pay for. They have less of a debt on their national stadium. They've also just sold a piece of land for 27m Euros.

They also have very wealthy individuals paying to keep players in Ireland, like Sexton. But they don't like to talk about that very much.

 
Quote One thing they are far better at when compared to Wales is their selection of talent to invest in. They do not hand out crazy deals to players like King, Thornton, Baldwin etc in the form of dual contracts. A seasoned International like Zebo was allowed to leave for France while O'Mahoney was targeted to stay. Hopefully project reset will start to address the many issues we have around financing. I can't help but feel that all regions need to start by addressing the development of young talent. At 20's level Wales are competitive against the Scots & Irish yet, with Leinster in particular it seems that a far greater % of these 20's players find themselves pushing hard for starting spots & going on to excel. Take the recent examples of Jordan Williams, Sam Davies, Leon Brown & Harrison Keddie. All were hugely successful 20's players who would probably have been selected in a combined British & Irish under 20's team at their respective times. 

Now look at Jacob Stockdale, James Ryan, Joey Carbery & Porter. The development of the Irish four has been stratospheric compared to their Welsh counterparts. I appreciate that I am taking a very simplistic view in my comparisons but there must be something about the development pathway which is better in Ireland.


It's all about having the money to keep them.

How does money have anything to do with how well the Irish young players have developed. Surely it is to do with the comparative systems in place. It is pretty clear to me that the Irish have developed young players on the whole better than we have in Wales. 

As for your other answers they are very informative. I did not mean to suggest that Exeter were a profitable club but they were last year; we of course have fantastic benefactors without whom we wouldn't be in existence but the level at which Bristol are financed, along with many other English clubs is light years away from where we are or ever will be.

At under 20 level, Wales compares quite favourably, results wise, with the  Irish. It's their deveplment from there which looks quite outstanding in Ireland. They really have cracked it.
I'm hoping our A team structure will go someway to bridging that gap. They were competative in both games agianst Leinster A earlier in the season so......

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 11:21am
Originally posted by M.M. M.M. wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Only Exeter of the top 12 English clubs don't lose money.


Exeter are over £13m in debt.

Quote a backer like Bristol Bears who is prepared to lose millions in his pursuit of success. 


Exactly the same as the Scarlets then.


Quote How the IRFU raise their money is an interesting topic. Their ground capacity is only around the 50K mark so match day revenues should be way down on Wales.


They have fewer grass roots clubs to pay for. They have less of a debt on their national stadium. They've also just sold a piece of land for 27m Euros.

They also have very wealthy individuals paying to keep players in Ireland, like Sexton. But they don't like to talk about that very much.

 
Quote One thing they are far better at when compared to Wales is their selection of talent to invest in. They do not hand out crazy deals to players like King, Thornton, Baldwin etc in the form of dual contracts. A seasoned International like Zebo was allowed to leave for France while O'Mahoney was targeted to stay. Hopefully project reset will start to address the many issues we have around financing. I can't help but feel that all regions need to start by addressing the development of young talent. At 20's level Wales are competitive against the Scots & Irish yet, with Leinster in particular it seems that a far greater % of these 20's players find themselves pushing hard for starting spots & going on to excel. Take the recent examples of Jordan Williams, Sam Davies, Leon Brown & Harrison Keddie. All were hugely successful 20's players who would probably have been selected in a combined British & Irish under 20's team at their respective times. 

Now look at Jacob Stockdale, James Ryan, Joey Carbery & Porter. The development of the Irish four has been stratospheric compared to their Welsh counterparts. I appreciate that I am taking a very simplistic view in my comparisons but there must be something about the development pathway which is better in Ireland.


It's all about having the money to keep them.

How does money have anything to do with how well the Irish young players have developed. Surely it is to do with the comparative systems in place. It is pretty clear to me that the Irish have developed young players on the whole better than we have in Wales. 

As for your other answers they are very informative. I did not mean to suggest that Exeter were a profitable club but they were last year; we of course have fantastic benefactors without whom we wouldn't be in existence but the level at which Bristol are financed, along with many other English clubs is light years away from where we are or ever will be.

At under 20 level, Wales compares quite favourably, results wise, with the  Irish. It's their deveplment from there which looks quite outstanding in Ireland. They really have cracked it.
I'm hoping our A team structure will go someway to bridging that gap. They were competative in both games agianst Leinster A earlier in the season so......


Yes the A league is a big step forward. The Leinster A team who we were indeed competitive with contained a number of players who recently put the Ospreys & Dragons to the sword. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ap sior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 11:35am
Don't know the answer to this one, but how much do our players 'study' the game ? What is their level of understanding of the game ? 

Players in Wales seem to make too many basic during the 80 minutes. I know it was at Premiership level, but on Saturday the Llanelli players were much too far apart. Conditions were very wet and windy, and yet players from both sides tried miracle off loads and long passes, far too many of which went to ground or were knocked on. 

Lineouts. It seemed that both sides had a number of lineout ploys, and during the course of the 80 minutes were determined to try them all out. Not really conducive given the weather.

As far as studying the game, our players don't I suspect do much, and merely play the game. Years ago, Graham Henry told a story that he said had shocked him. During his early days he visited a small valleys club on what happened to be a youth training night. He asked one of the players that had impressed him most when the regional trial was due. The boy had no idea. Henry politely suggested that if he wanted to make progress in the game he should find out, and start to think about which areas of his game he needed to work on in preparation for the trial. 

This anecdote may seem insignificant, but hides a multitude of 'sins' in my view.


Edited by ap sior - 03 December 2018 at 11:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 1:17pm
Aren't you outlining the primary job of a coach there AS?
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