Scarlet Fever Llanelli Rugby Sport Wales Tickets Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > RUGBY > GENERAL RUGBY
  New Posts New Posts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login


wage inflation in rugby !

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
Message
KID A View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Cardiff
Status: Offline
Points: 26419
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 1:31pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

How does money have anything to do with how well the Irish young players have developed. Surely it is to do with the comparative systems in place. It is pretty clear to me that the Irish have developed young players on the whole better than we have in Wales. 

As for your other answers they are very informative. I did not mean to suggest that Exeter were a profitable club but they were last year; we of course have fantastic benefactors without whom we wouldn't be in existence but the level at which Bristol are financed, along with many other English clubs is light years away from where we are or ever will be.


Money is everything in pro sport. It provides better coaches, facilities, wages etc.

How many Irish players leave Ireland before they are 21? Tadhg Beirne? How many Welsh leave Wales?

Welsh rugby can't offer their players what Irish rugby can offer theirs.

Also, there are sacrifices at provincial level. Ulster had to let Ruan Peinaar leave Ireland so a young 9 could be brought through.

Welsh rugby is in the middle - structure wise. We are too divided / poor to have a fully Union owned model, as the Union can't afford it. And we are not as wealthy as the independent English / French to compete with a £8.5m / £10m squad spend. We're in the middle. And maybe the incoming rugby services agreement is going to reflect that.
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 01 December 2014
Location: Rhydcymerau
Status: Offline
Points: 6852
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

How does money have anything to do with how well the Irish young players have developed. Surely it is to do with the comparative systems in place. It is pretty clear to me that the Irish have developed young players on the whole better than we have in Wales. 

As for your other answers they are very informative. I did not mean to suggest that Exeter were a profitable club but they were last year; we of course have fantastic benefactors without whom we wouldn't be in existence but the level at which Bristol are financed, along with many other English clubs is light years away from where we are or ever will be.


Money is everything in pro sport. It provides better coaches, facilities, wages etc.

How many Irish players leave Ireland before they are 21? Tadhg Beirne? How many Welsh leave Wales?

Welsh rugby can't offer their players what Irish rugby can offer theirs.

Also, there are sacrifices at provincial level. Ulster had to let Ruan Peinaar leave Ireland so a young 9 could be brought through.

Welsh rugby is in the middle - structure wise. We are too divided / poor to have a fully Union owned model, as the Union can't afford it. And we are not as wealthy as the independent English / French to compete with a £8.5m / £10m squad spend. We're in the middle. And maybe the incoming rugby services agreement is going to reflect that.

What is puzzling is how the IRFU are that much more profitable than the WRU bearing in mind taht they are down around £2million in revenue for every home game thats around £12 million a season a fair % of their overall income. 
Back to Top
KID A View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Cardiff
Status: Offline
Points: 26419
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

How does money have anything to do with how well the Irish young players have developed. Surely it is to do with the comparative systems in place. It is pretty clear to me that the Irish have developed young players on the whole better than we have in Wales. 

As for your other answers they are very informative. I did not mean to suggest that Exeter were a profitable club but they were last year; we of course have fantastic benefactors without whom we wouldn't be in existence but the level at which Bristol are financed, along with many other English clubs is light years away from where we are or ever will be.


Money is everything in pro sport. It provides better coaches, facilities, wages etc.

How many Irish players leave Ireland before they are 21? Tadhg Beirne? How many Welsh leave Wales?

Welsh rugby can't offer their players what Irish rugby can offer theirs.

Also, there are sacrifices at provincial level. Ulster had to let Ruan Peinaar leave Ireland so a young 9 could be brought through.

Welsh rugby is in the middle - structure wise. We are too divided / poor to have a fully Union owned model, as the Union can't afford it. And we are not as wealthy as the independent English / French to compete with a £8.5m / £10m squad spend. We're in the middle. And maybe the incoming rugby services agreement is going to reflect that.


What is puzzling is how the IRFU are that much more profitable than the WRU bearing in mind taht they are down around £2million in revenue for every home game thats around £12 million a season a fair % of their overall income. 


The profit of the WRU and IRFU is around the same isn't it? Around the £1.5m - £2.5m mark?
Back to Top
Gwyn Morgan View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 358
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gwyn Morgan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 2:21pm
Think we are being a bit hard on ourselves here. Ireland won 2 out of last 5 matches vs Wales, and we have half their population. They are above Wales in the world rankings and there is a lot to admire (ie steal!) in the way they do things but this isn't the 90s, Wales are not dreadful these days and we are not SA Oz or France languishing at a level far lower than we belong.
During the 2000s Ireland won 7/10 but we have won more head to head since 2010.
We can't be getting it THAT wrong can we, even if we are behind Ireland
Of course there is always room for improvement; but let's not get too carried away.
Back to Top
Gwyn Morgan View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 358
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gwyn Morgan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 2:23pm
Think we are being a bit hard on ourselves here. Ireland won 2 out of last 5 matches vs Wales, and we have half their population. They are above Wales in the world rankings and there is a lot to admire (ie steal!) in the way they do things but this isn't the 90s, Wales are not dreadful these days and we are not SA Oz or France languishing at a level far lower than we belong.
During the 2000s Ireland won 7/10 but we have won more head to head since 2010.
We can't be getting it THAT wrong can we, even if we are behind Ireland
Of course there is always room for improvement; but let's not get too carried away.
Back to Top
KID A View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Cardiff
Status: Offline
Points: 26419
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by Gwyn Morgan Gwyn Morgan wrote:

Think we are being a bit hard on ourselves here. Ireland won 2 out of last 5 matches vs Wales, and we have half their population. They are above Wales in the world rankings and there is a lot to admire (ie steal!) in the way they do things but this isn't the 90s, Wales are not dreadful these days and we are not SA Oz or France languishing at a level far lower than we belong.
During the 2000s Ireland won 7/10 but we have won more head to head since 2010.
We can't be getting it THAT wrong can we, even if we are behind Ireland
Of course there is always room for improvement; but let's not get too carried away.


You're just talking about 1 match every year there though, not the entire structure of the sport.
Back to Top
ap sior View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 08 May 2005
Location: Wales
Status: Online
Points: 7862
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ap sior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Aren't you outlining the primary job of a coach there AS?

Happy to respond Wil, can you tell me what part of my post you are referring to ? Thanks
Back to Top
GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 01 December 2014
Location: Rhydcymerau
Status: Offline
Points: 6852
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 2:33pm
Originally posted by Gwyn Morgan Gwyn Morgan wrote:

Think we are being a bit hard on ourselves here. Ireland won 2 out of last 5 matches vs Wales, and we have half their population. They are above Wales in the world rankings and there is a lot to admire (ie steal!) in the way they do things but this isn't the 90s, Wales are not dreadful these days and we are not SA Oz or France languishing at a level far lower than we belong.
During the 2000s Ireland won 7/10 but we have won more head to head since 2010.
We can't be getting it THAT wrong can we, even if we are behind Ireland
Of course there is always room for improvement; but let's not get too carried away.

No I'm certainly not getting carried away Gwyn but I am looking at the development side of the Irish & Welsh players not the one off matches once they have been developed. I struggle to understand where the IRFU get their funds from to fund 4 top regions keeping most/all their top players in Ireland & seemingly bring on under 20's players in their droves through to Region and International standard. One revenue source i.e. home Internationals every season we should be well ahead of them - my calculation is around £2 million per home game thats £12 million a season which is a sizeable chunk of overall turnover. 
Back to Top
ap sior View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 08 May 2005
Location: Wales
Status: Online
Points: 7862
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ap sior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Gwyn Morgan Gwyn Morgan wrote:

Think we are being a bit hard on ourselves here. Ireland won 2 out of last 5 matches vs Wales, and we have half their population. They are above Wales in the world rankings and there is a lot to admire (ie steal!) in the way they do things but this isn't the 90s, Wales are not dreadful these days and we are not SA Oz or France languishing at a level far lower than we belong.
During the 2000s Ireland won 7/10 but we have won more head to head since 2010.
We can't be getting it THAT wrong can we, even if we are behind Ireland
Of course there is always room for improvement; but let's not get too carried away.

No I'm certainly not getting carried away Gwyn but I am looking at the development side of the Irish & Welsh players not the one off matches once they have been developed. I struggle to understand where the IRFU get their funds from to fund 4 top regions keeping most/all their top players in Ireland & seemingly bring on under 20's players in their droves through to Region and International standard. One revenue source i.e. home Internationals every season we should be well ahead of them - my calculation is around £2 million per home game thats £12 million a season which is a sizeable chunk of overall turnover. 

Perhaps one reason GPR is that the Republic has its own tax laws. Perhaps the IRFU get tax breaks, their players do. 

When tax making and collecting laws are devolved to Cardiff we may see a change.
Back to Top
GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 01 December 2014
Location: Rhydcymerau
Status: Offline
Points: 6852
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Gwyn Morgan Gwyn Morgan wrote:

Think we are being a bit hard on ourselves here. Ireland won 2 out of last 5 matches vs Wales, and we have half their population. They are above Wales in the world rankings and there is a lot to admire (ie steal!) in the way they do things but this isn't the 90s, Wales are not dreadful these days and we are not SA Oz or France languishing at a level far lower than we belong.
During the 2000s Ireland won 7/10 but we have won more head to head since 2010.
We can't be getting it THAT wrong can we, even if we are behind Ireland
Of course there is always room for improvement; but let's not get too carried away.

No I'm certainly not getting carried away Gwyn but I am looking at the development side of the Irish & Welsh players not the one off matches once they have been developed. I struggle to understand where the IRFU get their funds from to fund 4 top regions keeping most/all their top players in Ireland & seemingly bring on under 20's players in their droves through to Region and International standard. One revenue source i.e. home Internationals every season we should be well ahead of them - my calculation is around £2 million per home game thats £12 million a season which is a sizeable chunk of overall turnover. 

Perhaps one reason GPR is that the Republic has its own tax laws. Perhaps the IRFU get tax breaks, their players do. 

When tax making and collecting laws are devolved to Cardiff we may see a change.

Fair point I appreciate that their tax laws are very favourable to the players which is a great incentive for loyalty and, of course, makes the financial decision to leave more difficult.
Back to Top
KID A View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Cardiff
Status: Offline
Points: 26419
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Gwyn Morgan Gwyn Morgan wrote:

Think we are being a bit hard on ourselves here. Ireland won 2 out of last 5 matches vs Wales, and we have half their population. They are above Wales in the world rankings and there is a lot to admire (ie steal!) in the way they do things but this isn't the 90s, Wales are not dreadful these days and we are not SA Oz or France languishing at a level far lower than we belong.
During the 2000s Ireland won 7/10 but we have won more head to head since 2010.
We can't be getting it THAT wrong can we, even if we are behind Ireland
Of course there is always room for improvement; but let's not get too carried away.


No I'm certainly not getting carried away Gwyn but I am looking at the development side of the Irish & Welsh players not the one off matches once they have been developed. I struggle to understand where the IRFU get their funds from to fund 4 top regions keeping most/all their top players in Ireland & seemingly bring on under 20's players in their droves through to Region and International standard. One revenue source i.e. home Internationals every season we should be well ahead of them - my calculation is around £2 million per home game thats £12 million a season which is a sizeable chunk of overall turnover. 


Look at the annual reports, and look at how much the WRU and IRFU each spend on

1) The pro game
2 The community game.

Back to Top
ap sior View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 08 May 2005
Location: Wales
Status: Online
Points: 7862
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ap sior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Gwyn Morgan Gwyn Morgan wrote:

Think we are being a bit hard on ourselves here. Ireland won 2 out of last 5 matches vs Wales, and we have half their population. They are above Wales in the world rankings and there is a lot to admire (ie steal!) in the way they do things but this isn't the 90s, Wales are not dreadful these days and we are not SA Oz or France languishing at a level far lower than we belong.
During the 2000s Ireland won 7/10 but we have won more head to head since 2010.
We can't be getting it THAT wrong can we, even if we are behind Ireland
Of course there is always room for improvement; but let's not get too carried away.


No I'm certainly not getting carried away Gwyn but I am looking at the development side of the Irish & Welsh players not the one off matches once they have been developed. I struggle to understand where the IRFU get their funds from to fund 4 top regions keeping most/all their top players in Ireland & seemingly bring on under 20's players in their droves through to Region and International standard. One revenue source i.e. home Internationals every season we should be well ahead of them - my calculation is around £2 million per home game thats £12 million a season which is a sizeable chunk of overall turnover. 


Look at the annual reports, and look at how much the WRU and IRFU each spend on

1) The pro game
2 The community game.


If you have them, can you enlighten us on these figures please Kid ?
Back to Top
Wil Chips View Drop Down
Rambler
Rambler
Avatar

Joined: 23 August 2009
Location: Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 41414
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Aren't you outlining the primary job of a coach there AS?


Happy to respond Wil, can you tell me what part of my post you are referring to ? Thanks


It’s off at a bit of a tangent, but pretty much all the skills and knowledge that is executed on the field comes from natural ability or coaching. The added element is experience of playing under pressure...that’s where the SH leaves us for dead...they play high intensity games from age 13...error count diminishes as players come through...

What we shouldn’t do in my view, is sanitize all players natural flair and skills to fit a recipe or style of play.
Back to Top
KID A View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Cardiff
Status: Offline
Points: 26419
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Gwyn Morgan Gwyn Morgan wrote:

Think we are being a bit hard on ourselves here. Ireland won 2 out of last 5 matches vs Wales, and we have half their population. They are above Wales in the world rankings and there is a lot to admire (ie steal!) in the way they do things but this isn't the 90s, Wales are not dreadful these days and we are not SA Oz or France languishing at a level far lower than we belong.
During the 2000s Ireland won 7/10 but we have won more head to head since 2010.
We can't be getting it THAT wrong can we, even if we are behind Ireland
Of course there is always room for improvement; but let's not get too carried away.


No I'm certainly not getting carried away Gwyn but I am looking at the development side of the Irish & Welsh players not the one off matches once they have been developed. I struggle to understand where the IRFU get their funds from to fund 4 top regions keeping most/all their top players in Ireland & seemingly bring on under 20's players in their droves through to Region and International standard. One revenue source i.e. home Internationals every season we should be well ahead of them - my calculation is around £2 million per home game thats £12 million a season which is a sizeable chunk of overall turnover. 


Look at the annual reports, and look at how much the WRU and IRFU each spend on

1) The pro game
2 The community game.



If you have them, can you enlighten us on these figures please Kid ?


The WRU spent £42m on the entire game last year (that includes the competition money owed to the 4 regions, estimated at about £11m I think)

The IRFU spent 42m Euros on the professional game only last year. (And I don't think that includes the competition money owed to their 4, the prize money won by leinster or the 5m prize for winning the 6 nations)

That also doesn't include an "Elite player development" cost of 10m Euros. Whatever that is.

So you're looking at IRFU spending 52m Euros - concentrated on the very best rugby players across Ireland, while the WRU spends £42m on the whole of rugby, possibly minus approx £11m for compeition owed money.

Edited by KID A - 03 December 2018 at 2:55pm
Back to Top
GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 01 December 2014
Location: Rhydcymerau
Status: Offline
Points: 6852
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Gwyn Morgan Gwyn Morgan wrote:

Think we are being a bit hard on ourselves here. Ireland won 2 out of last 5 matches vs Wales, and we have half their population. They are above Wales in the world rankings and there is a lot to admire (ie steal!) in the way they do things but this isn't the 90s, Wales are not dreadful these days and we are not SA Oz or France languishing at a level far lower than we belong.
During the 2000s Ireland won 7/10 but we have won more head to head since 2010.
We can't be getting it THAT wrong can we, even if we are behind Ireland
Of course there is always room for improvement; but let's not get too carried away.


No I'm certainly not getting carried away Gwyn but I am looking at the development side of the Irish & Welsh players not the one off matches once they have been developed. I struggle to understand where the IRFU get their funds from to fund 4 top regions keeping most/all their top players in Ireland & seemingly bring on under 20's players in their droves through to Region and International standard. One revenue source i.e. home Internationals every season we should be well ahead of them - my calculation is around £2 million per home game thats £12 million a season which is a sizeable chunk of overall turnover. 


Look at the annual reports, and look at how much the WRU and IRFU each spend on

1) The pro game
2 The community game.



If you have them, can you enlighten us on these figures please Kid ?


The WRU spent £42m on the entire game last year (that includes the competition money owed to the 4 regions, estimated at about £11m I think)

The IRFU spent 42m Euros on the professional game only last year. (And I don't think that includes the competition money owed to their 4, the prize money won by leinster or the 5m prize for winning the 6 nations)

That also doesn't include an "Elite player development" cost of 10m Euros. Whatever that is.

So you're looking at IRFU spending 52m Euros - concentrated on the very best rugby players across Ireland, while the WRU spends £42m on the whole of rugby, possibly minus approx £11m for compeition owed money.

Thanks for that information Kid A. Do you happen to know what the IRFU total turnover was? I believe the WRU was around £90 million. 
Back to Top
ap sior View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 08 May 2005
Location: Wales
Status: Online
Points: 7862
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ap sior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2018 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Aren't you outlining the primary job of a coach there AS?


Happy to respond Wil, can you tell me what part of my post you are referring to ? Thanks


It’s off at a bit of a tangent, but pretty much all the skills and knowledge that is executed on the field comes from natural ability or coaching. The added element is experience of playing under pressure...that’s where the SH leaves us for dead...they play high intensity games from age 13...error count diminishes as players come through...

What we shouldn’t do in my view, is sanitize all players natural flair and skills to fit a recipe or style of play.

Carwyn made this point in about 1985 I believe. He said in an article that we were in danger of over coaching players, so that natural skill and decision making would be taken out of them. Not long after I remember Wales losing a midweek AI to Canada, the first time they beat us. Things were not going Wales' way, and at one point Adrian Davies, the Blues player who was OH that evening, looked up to the stand to Alan Davies, and mouthed 'what do I do ?' Carwyn's prophecy had come true before my very eyes.

As far as error count is concerned, Hadleigh has probably been one of our most consistent performers over the last few seasons. For some reason he's some way short of his best at the moment.

WP does encourage the players to make their own decisions on the pitch. We witnessed that in bath last season. Early second half we had a choice of two penalties, one of which was under the sticks, and would have made it a 25-3, a four score game. 

Ken decided to kick for the corner, and a few plays later Scott scored. At the Meet the Coaches the following week, WP was asked about this and admitted at the time he despaired. However he also admitted that he backs his players to make on field decisions.

I felt that it was the wrong decision on Saturday to kick for the corner after the red card. It was very early in the game, and we didn't need to chase 7 pts at that time. We can only hope that if a similar situation arises Friday night we will put a little more thought into decision.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.04
Copyright ©2001-2015 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.063 seconds.