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Wales changes.

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roy munster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 March 2017 at 10:35pm
its really 4 issues, 10 , 14,15 and roberts....plus the total failure to develop over the last few years (and the bizarre yet strangely ignored disappearance of ian evans???)
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reesytheexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 March 2017 at 11:48pm
I see it more about the choice of the two 10's ( as at least HP and Liam are on the pitch at same time! ) and the oddity re Jamie Roberts. He should either start for 50 minutes or not be in the match 23 as he is not an impact or utility player to add value. On the other hand Steff Evans does and can play wing or full back. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greypower1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 March 2017 at 8:43am
So can Roberts, if he can recall his formative years!
Keep the faith
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletnut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 March 2017 at 9:27am
Originally posted by greypower1 greypower1 wrote:

So can Roberts, if he can recall his formative years!
He's not going to though
I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 March 2017 at 9:30am
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Wales lose, then everyone will surely get their dreams fulfilled with major change for France. That will be fun.

Don't think anyone is really calling for sweeping changes Wil as International rugby is a very unforgiving place. However my criticism of Howley's selections are not wholesale but are still, in my opinion, having a detrimental effect on the team. His treatment of Giles against Japan, his continuing selection of Liam at wing, his use of of Jamie as an inpact player off the bench instead of Steff, his problems with Moriarty/Faletau, selecting Cuthbert. Howley had the perfect opportunity to give Steff 20 minutes against Italy to give him his taste. Thereafter he can hide behind the fact that it is unfair to throw a new cap into the arena against the best sides.

All these matters point to muddled thinking. Wonderful player that Tipuric is I fear that he will suffer at the breakdown tomorrow. Ffidel has made a good point - we need a 7 against tough packs who can slow opposition ball down & steal possession. Young & Cubby, in my opinion, do this better than Tipuric. If Wales keep losing then he will be forced into changes & then the pressure ramps up on new caps with unrealistic expectations on their shoulders. He has totally missed his chances of introducing our young future talent wisely. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dai38 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 March 2017 at 9:39am
What does concern me a little is Wales loose on Friday, and then Howley decides to make all ALL the changes he should have made in the Autumn and now, resulting in a heavy loss in the sun in Paris.........and he tells everyone look I was right not to make the changes.

I really think we are in a downward spiral for the World Cup, not a dramatic one, but one that is down to the coaching staff inability to refresh the team and slowly tweak it.

Then it will be World Cup 2023 to look forward to if we are alive !!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LLANDRE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 March 2017 at 9:44am
There's always an excuse for not having a few changes. George North hasn't played well for a couple of years so it's not a knee jerk reaction. It's obvious to most people that Sanjay is far better at full back than on the wing. We are totally lacking footballing ability in the back line and playing Sam Davies at ten wouldn't be a gamble in my eyes. A few simple changes that's all .Anyway I'm not the coach or selecting the national side. I do want Wales to win but am slowly losing patience with Howley who says one thing but does another.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 March 2017 at 10:26am
Originally posted by LLANDRE LLANDRE wrote:

There's always an excuse for not having a few changes. George North hasn't played well for a couple of years so it's not a knee jerk reaction. It's obvious to most people that Sanjay is far better at full back than on the wing. We are totally lacking footballing ability in the back line and playing Sam Davies at ten wouldn't be a gamble in my eyes. A few simple changes that's all .Anyway I'm not the coach or selecting the national side. I do want Wales to win but am slowly losing patience with Howley who says one thing but does another.

I don't think its fair to say George has not played well for a couple of years. He has not played well consistently. He was excellent in the first test in NZ last summer for instance but the last couple of games he has not been himself. His defence is a weakness. My backline from the squad named for this game would be :-

15 Liam, 14 Steff, 13 Foxy, 12 Scott, 11 George, 10 Sam 9 Rhys. 

I appreciate that Sam is not a 90% kicker like Leigh or indeed Dan but if he attains 75% I reckon that we may lose 3-5 points a game but his attacking prowess should more than make up for that. I don't think Leigh is anywhere near his best hence my decision to drop him to the bench. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gate12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 March 2017 at 1:33pm
I'd have gone:
 
Sanjay
Halfpenny
Foxy
Scott
North
Davies
Webb
Faletau
Warburton
Moriaty
AWJ
Ball
Samson
Ken
Rob
 
Biggar (I'd have gone for Patchell if he was fit), Beck, Aled, Young, Charteris, Francis, Parry, Smith
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote haydn_davies Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 March 2017 at 1:49pm
Home Nations New Caps since end of 2014 6N:-

England - 23
Ireland - 32
Scotland - 27
Wales - 14

Says it all for me.

When the current crop of players retire, there will be huge pressure when a load of new players will be forced to make their debuts within a short period.

New caps should be integrated with current experienced players. No better time IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 March 2017 at 4:04pm
Lots of stuff being thrown about that fits a narrative.

I'm no fan of the contractual coaching legacy left by Lewis, at the same time I can actually see Howley at least trying to make some key changes...( frankly options are limited).

The clamour for Keelan Giles' inclusion beggars belief to me, and I admire Howley for not picking him...if selected you could add to him this list of ' un-believable speedsters-media hyped precocious talent-deserved and then got a chance-and were found to be way out of their depth' .....net result ?
Total loss of career momentum..

Kris Phillips
Jordan Williams
Dafydd Howells
Tom Prydie
Matthew Morgan
Harry Robinson
Wil Harris

The sad truth here,is that amongst that list there is probably at least a couple of guys, that with the proper nurturing, would be ready now. Howley has at least stopped that wasteful strategy.

As for George North, again I just don't get it. He was the form winger in world rugby until his hamstring tear in NZ in July. He was on fire during last years 6 Nations..scored in every game ( top try scorer ), most defenders beaten, most clean breaks, most yds ran..but I constantly read how he's been rubbish since the Lions tour in 2013- really?
The guy is 24, is now 4th on the Wales all time try scoring list, and so is demonstrably a proven finisher. With respect to Steff, who I think Is hugely improved the season, but he actually isn't guaranteed to even be our first choice wing when all are fit?

The top kicker in the pro 12 this season ( minimum 10 attempts) is Dan Jones...next is Sam Davies. Halfpenny is currently the person with the most missed kicks in the Euro cups..now you might say that Leigh has a high % of long range kicks, true, but he's given the kicking duties because of that very reason..his prodigious ability to kick from long range, so not really a compelling excuse.
So to me there is a case to answer at 10 & 15 and I think that is ideal pressure on the incumbents.

Jonathon Davies..currentky no 1 ranked centre in the 6N..most only recall his kick v England.

Jamie Roberts in the 23...I agree not ideal...alternatives ?
Beck? can't be managed through an international tournament any more ( terrible, as he is pure class)
Tyler? Just come back from long term injury, not in form.
Owen Williams ? A kicking 12...with already 3 front line kickers in the 23 I can see the conflict.

Put a winger in there ...Cuthbert, Giles, James or Steff ?
Tried/failed or un-capped.

We are thin on proven talent across the team...eg...Injuries to either Francis or Lee would bring Scott Andrews or Rhodri Jones in to the 23...not first choices at their clubs and bring groans when on the team sheet for Wales..

We are entering a testing time for sure.




Edited by Wil Chips - 09 March 2017 at 4:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote surfing-mtber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 March 2017 at 4:36pm
Interesting analysis of the Halfpenny/Liam @ 15 debate.  Stats aren't everything, but worth a look.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/real-reason-wales-wont-swap-12715646
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Once a monkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 March 2017 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Lots of stuff being thrown about that fits a narrative.

I'm no fan of the contractual coaching legacy left by Lewis, at the same time I can actually see Howley at least trying to make some key changes...( frankly options are limited).

The clamour for Keelan Giles' inclusion beggars belief to me, and I admire Howley for not picking him...if selected you could add to him this list of ' un-believable speedsters-media hyped precocious talent-deserved and then got a chance-and were found to be way out of their depth' .....net result ?
Total loss of career momentum..

Kris Phillips
Jordan Williams
Dafydd Howells
Tom Prydie
Matthew Morgan
Harry Robinson
Wil Harris

The sad truth here,is that amongst that list there is probably at least a couple of guys, that with the proper nurturing, would be ready now. Howley has at least stopped that wasteful strategy.

As for George North, again I just don't get it. He was the form winger in world rugby until his hamstring tear in NZ in July. He was on fire during last years 6 Nations..scored in every game ( top try scorer ), most defenders beaten, most clean breaks, most yds ran..but I constantly read how he's been rubbish since the Lions tour in 2013- really?
The guy is 24, is now 4th on the Wales all time try scoring list, and so is demonstrably a proven finisher. With respect to Steff, who I think Is hugely improved the season, but he actually isn't guaranteed to even be our first choice wing when all are fit?

The top kicker in the pro 12 this season ( minimum 10 attempts) is Dan Jones...next is Sam Davies. Halfpenny is currently the person with the most missed kicks in the Euro cups..now you might say that Leigh has a high % of long range kicks, true, but he's given the kicking duties because of that very reason..his prodigious ability to kick from long range, so not really a compelling excuse.
So to me there is a case to answer at 10 & 15 and I think that is ideal pressure on the incumbents.

Jonathon Davies..currentky no 1 ranked centre in the 6N..most only recall his kick v England.

Jamie Roberts in the 23...I agree not ideal...alternatives ?
Beck? can't be managed through an international tournament any more ( terrible, as he is pure class)
Tyler? Just come back from long term injury, not in form.
Owen Williams ? A kicking 12...with already 3 front line kickers in the 23 I can see the conflict.

Put a winger in there ...Cuthbert, Giles, James or Steff ?
Tried/failed or un-capped.

We are thin on proven talent across the team...eg...Injuries to either Francis or Lee would bring Scott Andrews or Rhodri Jones in to the 23...not first choices at their clubs and bring groans when on the team sheet for Wales..

We are entering a testing time for sure.


I agree with much of that Wil. But it ably serves to highlight the lack of exposure shown to young talent by this coaching team over the last 3-4 seasons.
 
We approach every 6N and AI against a Tier 1 team as a must win, generally picking the strongest available team and don't take the opportunity to expose our better youngsters in an environment with tried and trusted individuals.
 
Instead, we throw them into an AI game against a Tier 2 team, where the obviously disrupted team fare poorly.
 
Does anyone think Thomas Young, Sam D or Steff wouldn't have had a start in an England shirt this 6N?
 
 
 
 
#George
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Wil Chips View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 March 2017 at 5:09pm
Gatland threw caution to the wind in 2011...he had a bang average 6N in a World Cup year and called a load of young guys in to the 23...the rest is history.

His loyalty to that group is to be commended, but the only changes down the years have been from necessity rather than a strategic succession plan...some kids have been thrown in for the odd tour or lower level AI fixture, but they've never really been able to dislodge the incumbents, and have been disguarded quickly.

The difference between this regime , and say that of Ferguson at Man U, is that ruthless streak that put performance before anything else that Ferguson possessed.

Howley is trying to put his stamp on things,unfortunately there is a fallow period on talent right now, bug mostly he's just a temp in a role where temps should never hold the reigns.



Edited by Wil Chips - 09 March 2017 at 5:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greypower1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 March 2017 at 5:11pm
Yes, only Young would come anywhere near an England team. Huge amount of talent coming through in England and not just in the Premiership.
Keep the faith
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote najbritcol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 March 2017 at 5:22pm
So are people saying there is no talent anymore in Wales?
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