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Wales Squad for 2018 Summer Tour

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

Tomas Francis, Luke Charteris and Josh Adams have all been dropped from the tour, as the first game is outside the World Rugby international window and their English clubs won’t release them, despite the fact that the season is already over for all three.

Josh Navidi’s dislocated shoulder means he won’t tour either.

Rhodri Jones (back to tight-head), Ashton Hewitt and Aaron Wainwright have been called up instead.



That's a bit pathetic - a dog in the manger attitude.


I agree with your sentiments Aber.

However for me it's a case of 'That's another fine mess you got us into Ollie' !!

Gatland knew the rules, playing matches outside the window has been an issue for years with the extra AI. We got out of it, but his policy of playing outside the window put us into the 'group of death' at the last RWC. 

Doesn't the man learn ? Why pick these three in the first place. He has in my eyes let these players down.


Absolutely. If you want your best players available, then organise the matches when you are supposed to.

If the English clubs released them for 1 out of the window game it would set a terrible precedent that would allow test rugby (or specifically WRU) to organise even more games outside the window and demand their players for it.

I have absolutely no problem with the English RFU, or the French one, declining to release players in the Autumn, when they know that those players will be needed either that same weekend, or the next one, for club games. That's fair enough.

In this instance, the players won't be needed by their clubs until next (pre-) season, so their only motivation can be to give the WRU a black eye. No doubt, the WRU could run things better, but it's hardly an excuse for the English clubs to behave like this, and frustrate their own players.

As for 'money' - yes, indeed, it plays far too much of a role in modern rugby and decisions concerning the game... but since England will (as usual) be coining it from 3 tests v SA, and Wales will get comparative peanuts for 2 games v Argentina, I can't honestly blame the WRU for trying to fit in a lucrative match in the circumstances.
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by Dai38 Dai38 wrote:

Remember South Africa are also to blame or is it a Wales v Wales game!!!!!!

If anything I agree with Sam Vesty.

KidA who runs English Rugby, I know what your answer is but should the governing body grow a pair of B**** to say let them go, they would not have played rugby for some 4-5 weeks, not interrupting anything.

So why.....don't say contract.

A SHAMBLES..... 


The English RFU has nothing to do with the way English pro club rugby is run. As it should be. And they especially have no say in players of another nation playing for a nation that is not England!

The clubs run club rugby in England. And if they say "ok these boys can play an out of window test in June", then what's to stop WRU saying in December - 5 days before the European cup games........"er....you let your players play outside the Summer window, so why are you not letting your players play outside the Autumn window?....see you in court"

It's 100% Correct decision by the English clubs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Dai38 Dai38 wrote:

Remember South Africa are also to blame or is it a Wales v Wales game!!!!!!

If anything I agree with Sam Vesty.

KidA who runs English Rugby, I know what your answer is but should the governing body grow a pair of B**** to say let them go, they would not have played rugby for some 4-5 weeks, not interrupting anything.

So why.....don't say contract.

A SHAMBLES..... 


The English RFU has nothing to do with the way English pro club rugby is run. As it should be. And they especially have no say in players of another nation playing for a nation that is not England!

The clubs run club rugby in England. And if they say "ok these boys can play an out of window test in June", then what's to stop WRU saying in December - 5 days before the European cup games........"er....you let your players play outside the Summer window, so why are you not letting your players play outside the Autumn window?....see you in court"

It's 100% Correct decision by the English clubs.

Legally, maybe - but it's not common sense.

You REALLY can't compare a situation (Autumn) where a national union asks for players to play a test the same weekend as they may be needed for a club game, or a week before a crucial match - and the situation here (Summer), where those players won't be needed by their clubs for a couple of months, at least - can you?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Dai38 Dai38 wrote:

Remember South Africa are also to blame or is it a Wales v Wales game!!!!!!

If anything I agree with Sam Vesty.

KidA who runs English Rugby, I know what your answer is but should the governing body grow a pair of B**** to say let them go, they would not have played rugby for some 4-5 weeks, not interrupting anything.

So why.....don't say contract.

A SHAMBLES..... 


The English RFU has nothing to do with the way English pro club rugby is run. As it should be. And they especially have no say in players of another nation playing for a nation that is not England!

The clubs run club rugby in England. And if they say "ok these boys can play an out of window test in June", then what's to stop WRU saying in December - 5 days before the European cup games........"er....you let your players play outside the Summer window, so why are you not letting your players play outside the Autumn window?....see you in court"

It's 100% Correct decision by the English clubs.


Legally, maybe - but it's not common sense.

You REALLY can't compare a situation (Autumn) where a national union asks for players to play a test the same weekend as they may be needed for a club game, or a week before a crucial match - and the situation here (Summer), where those players won't be needed by their clubs for a couple of months, at least - can you?


They'll get fined £60k per player released outside the window!

If you owned a company that was facing fines of 60k per employee going on a month sabbatical, would say "Oh go on then, have a blast".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 2:02pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Dai38 Dai38 wrote:

Remember South Africa are also to blame or is it a Wales v Wales game!!!!!!

If anything I agree with Sam Vesty.

KidA who runs English Rugby, I know what your answer is but should the governing body grow a pair of B**** to say let them go, they would not have played rugby for some 4-5 weeks, not interrupting anything.

So why.....don't say contract.

A SHAMBLES..... 


The English RFU has nothing to do with the way English pro club rugby is run. As it should be. And they especially have no say in players of another nation playing for a nation that is not England!

The clubs run club rugby in England. And if they say "ok these boys can play an out of window test in June", then what's to stop WRU saying in December - 5 days before the European cup games........"er....you let your players play outside the Summer window, so why are you not letting your players play outside the Autumn window?....see you in court"

It's 100% Correct decision by the English clubs.


Legally, maybe - but it's not common sense.

You REALLY can't compare a situation (Autumn) where a national union asks for players to play a test the same weekend as they may be needed for a club game, or a week before a crucial match - and the situation here (Summer), where those players won't be needed by their clubs for a couple of months, at least - can you?


They'll get fined £60k per player released outside the window!

If you owned a company that was facing fines of 60k per employee going on a month sabbatical, would say "Oh go on then, have a blast".

By Premier Rugby (or whatever it's called), I presume - not the RFU.

And who are these people? They are representatives of the Premiership clubs!

So they're saying:

"Sorry - you can't have these players because there's this big bad body that'll fine us £60k if we agree!" 

What they don't say is: "Oh, BTW - we actually elected the members of this big bad body that makes the rules... we could un-elect them, or change the rules - but, tough, we're not going to do so!"LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 2:06pm
I give up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 2:43pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

I give up.

Indeed you should, if I understood the position correctly.

If, on the other hand, the body making the rules is distinct and independent from the bodies refusing to release players, then please clarify. I may have misunderstood something, and am prepared to be educated if I got it wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:



Indeed you should, if I understood the position correctly.

If, on the other hand, the body making the rules is distinct and independent from the bodies refusing to release players, then please clarify. I may have misunderstood


They're not paying themselves the fine!

Edited by KID A - 17 May 2018 at 2:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:



Indeed you should, if I understood the position correctly.

If, on the other hand, the body making the rules is distinct and independent from the bodies refusing to release players, then please clarify. I may have misunderstood


They're not paying themselves the fine!

That hardly matters, if they are essentially the same people - is this a bit like traffic wardens - where they fine the public, and the fines go to pay the body that runs the traffic wardens? 

They can only wash their hands of the situation, Pontius Pilate style, if they are totally separate and independent from each other. From what I have read and (mis-?) understood so far, that does not appear to be the case!

i.e. if the 'fining body' is elected by the 'fined clubs', is there anything to stop those clubs from instructing the 'fining body' to change its regulations? They seem to be remarkably inflexible ATM.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 3:02pm
PRL is not elected. It's the organisation that runs English pro rugby. It's chaired by an independent Chief Executive.

It operates in the best interest of the clubs, and has a lucrative deal with the RFU to receive money for player release. If the RFU sees Wales players are being released scott free out of the window, then that is all up in the air. So PRL fines clubs for releasing such players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 3:10pm
Am I right in saying that AP clubs receive money when the England squad train outside of official windows?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Am I right in saying that AP clubs receive money when the England squad train outside of official windows?


The clubs get compensated for all player release inside and outside of windows. As the 4 Welsh teams do from the WRU.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Micro Duck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 3:23pm
Lewis Rawlins still can't make it into the squad.

Thought he would've been ahead of Aaron Wainwright.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Am I right in saying that AP clubs receive money when the England squad train outside of official windows?


The clubs get compensated for all player release inside and outside of windows. As the 4 Welsh teams do from the WRU.


I'm sure I read somewhere, a while ago, that when there are one off sessions they get extra money...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dai38 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 3:53pm
Kid A you say and I quote " best interest of the clubs"

What about the best interest of the game, which in reality is why they are there.

I am confused and this will be the last posting on this why are you defending all that is good in the English game and criticising everything Welsh.

Also why have you not said anything about South Africa.

Does anyone agree that it is a shambles brought on by the following Unions:-

English
Welsh
South African

Marshalled so well by the IRB who would have sanctioned the game prior to it being agreed.

How anyone can solely blame Wales is beyond me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NobbySosban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 4:37pm
Not sure Kid A is defending anyone, just explaining how PRL have created a commercial property and are protecting it within the express 'rules' of World Rugby.

PRL is the Clubs in the English Premiership and, as their employers, the players contracted to play for them. They are not obliged to release players outside of contracted periods and, if any other body (in this case the WRU) tries to take a liberty in this commercially-competitive world, they are within their rights to refuse access to the players under contract to them.

For whatever reason, WRU have arranged a game outside the recognised international window, so can't be entirely surprised when some stakeholders don't play ball. The wider context is that Gats & Co were testing the resolve of PRL Clubs, and have taken the opportunity to remind players that, to play for Wales, they'd be better off playing in Wales. Bluntly.


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