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Wales v France

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ladram View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ladram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2020 at 5:17am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

bet sam davies is chuffed he chose the dragons over a big money move with all the talk of rhys being recalled.
playing sam davies vs that french teAm would be crazy. They would either send that vakatawa at him all day or aldrit.  Sam just isn’t good enough in defence for games like this
my point wasn't about the better of the 2 players it was regarding the fact that rhys is being talked about when we have a 60 cap rule.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2020 at 11:14am
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

bet sam davies is chuffed he chose the dragons over a big money move with all the talk of rhys being recalled.
playing sam davies vs that french teAm would be crazy. They would either send that vakatawa at him all day or aldrit.  Sam just isn’t good enough in defence for games like this
my point wasn't about the better of the 2 players it was regarding the fact that rhys is being talked about when we have a 60 cap rule.
 
I don't see the issue if it's a one off thing, when our 3 front line players in one position are all injured
 
TBH I'm more worried about a player failing 3 hia inside 6 months being put back on the field in a test match. that doesn't seem sensible to me
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2020 at 11:22am
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Rhys is a very fine player. His case highlights the totally lunacy of trying to control where & how much a worker can earn. He is unavailable to Wales as he falls 10 caps short of the 60 cap rule. He was unable to return to Wales when his contract ended last season with Bath as no region offered him a contract. Perhaps someone would be kind enough to explain how that is good for Welsh rugby or even fair on the player. While your at it perhaps you could also explain to me why Rhys Webb is allowed to play and Priestland is not.

For sure Sam Davies is next in line & if Biggar is not fit will take his place on the bench. I wish him well. 
If we didn't have the 60 cap rule all four regions would be far far worse off than they are now. I'm not going to break trust and name players but I know of up to 20 players who turned down offers from England because of the 60 cap law while the likes of Moriarty certainly wouldn't have returned.

You have your opinion but the Scarlets would be significantly weaker without the 60 cap law. Welsh rugby is also not purely for the benefit of the player.
 
 
It's 1 game, when our top 3 players in one position are all injured,  I really don't see this as being that big a deal . It hasn't happened before and it probably never will again
 
This is hardly ripping up the 60 cap rule, what will cause more damage to the 60 cap rule and to players leaving to play in England is people putting too low a salary figure on welsh caps
 
In fact I'll be more specific unqualified  people  at the wru putting too low salary figures on welsh players, using the welsh cap rule as some sort of black mail to under pay our test stars
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote PE SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2020 at 11:54am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Rhys is a very fine player. His case highlights the totally lunacy of trying to control where & how much a worker can earn. He is unavailable to Wales as he falls 10 caps short of the 60 cap rule. He was unable to return to Wales when his contract ended last season with Bath as no region offered him a contract. Perhaps someone would be kind enough to explain how that is good for Welsh rugby or even fair on the player. While your at it perhaps you could also explain to me why Rhys Webb is allowed to play and Priestland is not.

For sure Sam Davies is next in line & if Biggar is not fit will take his place on the bench. I wish him well. 
If we didn't have the 60 cap rule all four regions would be far far worse off than they are now. I'm not going to break trust and name players but I know of up to 20 players who turned down offers from England because of the 60 cap law while the likes of Moriarty certainly wouldn't have returned.

You have your opinion but the Scarlets would be significantly weaker without the 60 cap law. Welsh rugby is also not purely for the benefit of the player.
 
 
It's 1 game, when our top 3 players in one position are all injured,  I really don't see this as being that big a deal . It hasn't happened before and it probably never will again
 
This is hardly ripping up the 60 cap rule, what will cause more damage to the 60 cap rule and to players leaving to play in England is people putting too low a salary figure on welsh caps
 
In fact I'll be more specific unqualified  people  at the wru putting too low salary figures on welsh players, using the welsh cap rule as some sort of black mail to under pay our test stars
 
 

i am the opposite to that thinking.
Pivac has realistically 2 and a half to 3yrs to build his squad for the Wold Cup.
Bringing Priestland in now would be pointless and a step backwards in World Cup building.

It would be much more beneficial to Pivac and Wales to bring in Sam Davies.
He has more than the capability "for one game" but also will be around during the next world cup so potentially could fight his way into the squad.
The injury crisis at 10 is an ideal chance to find out who we have. Far too long now Team Wales have relied on the fitness of Foxy, Biggar, Ken and AWJ.
Foxy being out injured is a huge blessing IMO. We need a new 13 potentially for the World Cup...Foxy is now getting regular lengthy injuries and one of them may be his last - we have no idea how he will come back from this injury yet.
Ken is knocking on the door of retirement as is AWJ...if AWJ and Ken decide next year or year after the World Cup is a step too far for their bodies, then we will be in a pickle.
Likewise if we dont see what the likes of Sam Davies can do with the 10 jersey as Biggar is starting to pick up many head injuries, Patch as well. and then we are scratching our heads...Jarrod is the only one whos had a shot in the last 2-3yrs.
Personally I think the time should now be concentrating on starting Elias or Dee at hooker with Ken on the bench. same for AWJ. Start 2 of Ball/Beard/Hill for them to build a rock solid lock pairing with AWJ on the bench.
WalesOnline may not like it. but personally for Wales to be prepared for the next World Cup, it needs to be done. calling on much older players - what is Priestland now, 34 retiring int he summer??? - Jamie Roberts another whos had a press stint regarding Welsh selection again - these lads have had great careers, did a cracking job for Wales too. but for me, we have a world cup to build for so lets look to the future not the past.
People often wonder why the AllBlacks have such international standard depth...they arent afraid to drop key players for rookies. Take Ioane for example - 5 days before the Lions match the decision was made to drop Savea for a 19 year old rookie for the 11 jersey. he is not the only bombshell selection either. but my point is, they expose players early to the international scene.
This country would call it potential career suicide...they call it continuous development. no match for Ioane will ever be as hard as an All Blacks test debut v British Lions.

Im not saying to throw in a kid at 10 (i know Sam Costellow is training with the squad) BUT, personally I do think Sam Davies can be called on to see what he can do as he has stayed faithful to the 60cap rule and stayed in Wales, also his form is good...and personally i dont think theres that much difference between him and Jarrod at the moment. He is also a player that can play an attacking game, which suits Pivacs style.

Thats my opinion anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2020 at 12:27pm
I tend to agree with a lot of what you say. I think if gatland had remained in charge he would have experimented more as he has "credit in the bank" and would have been given a few years of iffy results with an eye to the future
 
I don't think pivac has that luxury  and is picking more with a short term eye
 
I would have given LRZ and Tompkins/Watkins a full 6 nations to bed in with being an eye to being future stalwarts of the team going forward
 
Dee or Elias also both need a run of games at this level to see if they are impact subs or test starters
 
Wales do face a problem in the next 3 years or so the majority of our best players are coming to the end of their careers and out our under 20s have not been that special in the last few seasons
 
we will likely need to replace halfpenny , liam , foxy,  parkes biggar,Cawdor,ken,awj, toby f, tips by the time of the next world cup
 
If not priestland maybe sheedy should have got the call he has age on his side
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Owen111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2020 at 12:36pm
Wales have 3 years to give the newbies a run around and get them ready for the WC. 

World Cup seedings are done after the November tests this year. Pick your best team to win every game. 

SIMPLES 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PE SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2020 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by Owen111 Owen111 wrote:

Wales have 3 years to give the newbies a run around and get them ready for the WC. 

World Cup seedings are done after the November tests this year. Pick your best team to win every game. 

SIMPLES 
not really. that's until the world cup starts. squad building is before that. to get players up to and used to the international arena, used to the coaches and players etc, they need to come in asap.
 
I GET RRs point that Pivac may not have the luxury yet of potential bad results and not playing the likes of AWJ, Ken etc will have the media and pink hat brigade calling for his head.
 
But we have a shot here to build for the World Cup. pick your best team to win every game. Yes. but World Cup is far more important than 6N. Look at the squad now. No Foxy...we have no idea who we can play 13. we have brought in Tompkins thankfully whos a kid who will only get better with more international exposure and the more he gets to know the players etc. Biggar and Patch are injured. we are scratching heads for an outside half. AWJ has JUST come back from injury - I dread to think what we would do if he was injured still.
we need to start big games with less involvement from these guys as we not only to build up players for those positions, but also we need to find new leaders. As I said, Ken, AWJ and Foxy may not be at the world cup...we don't know...even tipuric will be touch and go...who will then take the reins as captain? theres a lot to do. ideally we can bring the players in now, so in 2 years time we have internationally exposed player pool to chose from and a new leader or two to choose from should they need to be called upon.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PE SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2020 at 1:20pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

I tend to agree with a lot of what you say. I think if gatland had remained in charge he would have experimented more as he has "credit in the bank" and would have been given a few years of iffy results with an eye to the future
 
I don't think pivac has that luxury  and is picking more with a short term eye
 
I would have given LRZ and Tompkins/Watkins a full 6 nations to bed in with being an eye to being future stalwarts of the team going forward
 
Dee or Elias also both need a run of games at this level to see if they are impact subs or test starters
 
Wales do face a problem in the next 3 years or so the majority of our best players are coming to the end of their careers and out our under 20s have not been that special in the last few seasons
 
we will likely need to replace halfpenny , liam , foxy,  parkes biggar,Cawdor,ken,awj, toby f, tips by the time of the next world cup
 
If not priestland maybe sheedy should have got the call he has age on his side
Yes agree that pivac may not have the luxury...but I do expect his changes to come in in the next 18months. already brought in a few surprises. 
as for sheedy, hasn't he had a call from Pivac? turning down a capped game for Wales this time round could be the end of his Welsh prospects IMO. hes pulled out of every game that would have tied him to Wales, and played an uncapped game for England. maybe he has no international aspirations?! he's 24 now and still undecided it seems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2020 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by PE SA PE SA wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

I tend to agree with a lot of what you say. I think if gatland had remained in charge he would have experimented more as he has "credit in the bank" and would have been given a few years of iffy results with an eye to the future
 
I don't think pivac has that luxury  and is picking more with a short term eye
 
I would have given LRZ and Tompkins/Watkins a full 6 nations to bed in with being an eye to being future stalwarts of the team going forward
 
Dee or Elias also both need a run of games at this level to see if they are impact subs or test starters
 
Wales do face a problem in the next 3 years or so the majority of our best players are coming to the end of their careers and out our under 20s have not been that special in the last few seasons
 
we will likely need to replace halfpenny , liam , foxy,  parkes biggar,Cawdor,ken,awj, toby f, tips by the time of the next world cup
 
If not priestland maybe sheedy should have got the call he has age on his side
Yes agree that pivac may not have the luxury...but I do expect his changes to come in in the next 18months. already brought in a few surprises. 
as for sheedy, hasn't he had a call from Pivac? turning down a capped game for Wales this time round could be the end of his Welsh prospects IMO. hes pulled out of every game that would have tied him to Wales, and played an uncapped game for England. maybe he has no international aspirations?! he's 24 now and still undecided it seems.

From what limited amount I have seen of Sheedy he just isn't good enough. Media keep building him up as available for 3 countries but from what I see nobody really wants him. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PE SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2020 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by PE SA PE SA wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

I tend to agree with a lot of what you say. I think if gatland had remained in charge he would have experimented more as he has "credit in the bank" and would have been given a few years of iffy results with an eye to the future
 
I don't think pivac has that luxury  and is picking more with a short term eye
 
I would have given LRZ and Tompkins/Watkins a full 6 nations to bed in with being an eye to being future stalwarts of the team going forward
 
Dee or Elias also both need a run of games at this level to see if they are impact subs or test starters
 
Wales do face a problem in the next 3 years or so the majority of our best players are coming to the end of their careers and out our under 20s have not been that special in the last few seasons
 
we will likely need to replace halfpenny , liam , foxy,  parkes biggar,Cawdor,ken,awj, toby f, tips by the time of the next world cup
 
If not priestland maybe sheedy should have got the call he has age on his side
Yes agree that pivac may not have the luxury...but I do expect his changes to come in in the next 18months. already brought in a few surprises. 
as for sheedy, hasn't he had a call from Pivac? turning down a capped game for Wales this time round could be the end of his Welsh prospects IMO. hes pulled out of every game that would have tied him to Wales, and played an uncapped game for England. maybe he has no international aspirations?! he's 24 now and still undecided it seems.

From what limited amount I have seen of Sheedy he just isn't good enough. Media keep building him up as available for 3 countries but from what I see nobody really wants him. 
I wouldn't say "nobody really wants him", he seems to keep refusing to commit. Ireland haven't really pursued him as he doesn't play an Irish province. he would need to do that before an Irish cap came like Beirne.
He has pulled out of Wales games that would have tied him to Wales, pulled out of Saxons, but played for uncapped England XV v Barbarians.
He seems to be playing down the Pivac call...to me sounds like he's said no. He's not an out and out 10, a player that can cover 10/12/13 so would be handy for any squad. He is keeping big names out of the Bristol side along with Ioan Lloyd. As I mentioned earlier, maybe he simply cant make a choice. If indeed he has turned Pivac down, then that's it for a Wales international career IMO.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 February 2020 at 3:15pm

The next 18 months is japan away nz x 2 away in summer , next ai series is Fiji Argentina  NZ and Boks and a 6 nations with England and Ireland home and all the blues away

 
Not many easy one's there!
 
that schedule looks pretty daft to me coming off the back of a world cup year and with a lions tour at the end of it (should have had a two test tour of japan in summer and played a Georgia or Romania in the autumn)
 
We should have started the rebuild against Italy home  both Tompkins and lrz should have started as a minimum .
 
It would be unfair to throw these young  guys in against England at twickers or out in nz in the summer, so I guess it'll be in the ai we see more of them
 
We really could do with the likes of moore at Cardiff, wheeler and morgan  at the ospreys, Costello and knott with ourselves  and basham and keddie at the dragons really kicking on and adding depth and youth to the welsh squad 
 
 
the nucleus of the next welsh world cup squad is likely to be carre dee  Francis Hill Beard Jenkins Adams and LRZ so lots of spaces to fill
 
 
 


Edited by RR1972 - 19 February 2020 at 3:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ladram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2020 at 7:22am
nice to see wales stooping to eddie jones level and getting their excuses in early,the irish and French are scrum cheats! I take it the Italians aren't because we beat them? I doubt you would find too many experts who didn't think that Dillon lewis going down wasn't a penalty.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2020 at 8:20am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

The next 18 months is japan away nz x 2 away in summer , next ai series is Fiji Argentina  NZ and Boks and a 6 nations with England and Ireland home and all the blues away

 
Not many easy one's there!
 
that schedule looks pretty daft to me coming off the back of a world cup year and with a lions tour at the end of it (should have had a two test tour of japan in summer and played a Georgia or Romania in the autumn)
 
We should have started the rebuild against Italy home  both Tompkins and lrz should have started as a minimum .
 
It would be unfair to throw these young  guys in against England at twickers or out in nz in the summer, so I guess it'll be in the ai we see more of them
 
We really could do with the likes of moore at Cardiff, wheeler and morgan  at the ospreys, Costello and knott with ourselves  and basham and keddie at the dragons really kicking on and adding depth and youth to the welsh squad 
 
 
the nucleus of the next welsh world cup squad is likely to be carre dee  Francis Hill Beard Jenkins Adams and LRZ so lots of spaces to fill
 
 
 

I hear what your saying with regard to development of players - i don't see any point in selecting the likes of LRZ, WGJ & Rowlands if your not going to give them gametime. Pivac should have selected all 3 in the 23 for Italy along with Tompkins. 

As for the next World Cup we have plenty of time - the summer tour in 2021 during the Lions tour will be the big opportunity to blood new guys. As for the current squad I see a lot more guys who will be available in 2023 :-

1. Rob, Smith, Carre, Wyn
2. Ryan, Dee, Lake
3. Francis, Samson, Brown, WGJ, Lewis
4/5 Jake, Beard, Hill, Seb, Rowlands
6/7 Wainwright, Hughes-Jones, Jenkins, Dan Davis, Navidi, Basham, Ollie Griffiths
8. Faletau, Moriarty, Josh McLoud
9. Cawdor, Tomos, Hardy, Morgan
10. Evans, Owen Williams, Patchell, Ioan Lloyd, Costellow, Cai Evans
11/14 Adams, North, LRZ, Lane, Steff
12/13 Watkins, Tompkins, Baldwin, Thomas-Wheeler, Kieran Williams, Osian Knott
15. Liam, Amos.

Top level leadership is the key to develop as AWJ leaves a huge hole. Of the above Ellis Jenkins fits the bill for me along with Cory Hill. As for areas where we are light - centre & full back are clearly positions where we need some of the young guys to step up. All is not lost!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2020 at 8:46am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

The next 18 months is japan away nz x 2 away in summer , next ai series is Fiji Argentina  NZ and Boks and a 6 nations with England and Ireland home and all the blues away

 
Not many easy one's there!
 
that schedule looks pretty daft to me coming off the back of a world cup year and with a lions tour at the end of it (should have had a two test tour of japan in summer and played a Georgia or Romania in the autumn)
 
We should have started the rebuild against Italy home  both Tompkins and lrz should have started as a minimum .
 
It would be unfair to throw these young  guys in against England at twickers or out in nz in the summer, so I guess it'll be in the ai we see more of them
 
We really could do with the likes of moore at Cardiff, wheeler and morgan  at the ospreys, Costello and knott with ourselves  and basham and keddie at the dragons really kicking on and adding depth and youth to the welsh squad 
 
 
the nucleus of the next welsh world cup squad is likely to be carre dee  Francis Hill Beard Jenkins Adams and LRZ so lots of spaces to fill
 
 
 


Agreed, sadly Knott is out for 5 months following surgery.

I think Basham is pulling up trees at the Dragons but Keddie doesn't seem to be playing as well as he first did when he first burst onto the scene. Mind
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