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Wales v South Africa Semi Final Thread

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GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2019 at 10:04am
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

No side with Cawdor, Patchell, Foxy, Liam & Tipuric should be uninventive. Gatland has been hugely influential in bettering this team but I can't help feeling he has missed a trick. Surely we have as many creative players as England. His distrust of players like Anscombe &, for me, our best option still at 10 Rhys has led to a conservative approach. 

The 10/12 axis along with the breakdown have become two absolutely key components of the modern game. 
agree gareth that gatland has improved us as a team but go back 2 years to the autumn series when the likes of peter Jackson were on scrum v crying out how few players they had used with a view of the world cup,a lot of the players who have come through and shone such as wainwright and josh adams were only given chances due to injuries,how many more unearthed gems have missed the boat for this world cup?

Nigel Gats has always been conservative. He creates a family first atmosphere with the players and no doubt they respond. We talk up our strength in depth but that only goes so far - the past 2 seasons North should not really have been 1st choice - his performances have not warranted it. With his physical attributes he should be causing havoc in opposition defences but he doesn't - most games I cry out for him to get involved but in the main he is anonymous. Do we identify players who have the physical attributes we need and really work on improving them? 

A couple of cases spring to mind - Rhys Carre & Leon Brown. Both are very big guys who are powerful carriers. Carre seems to be the next big thing for our front row but Brown has the ability to play for Wales for a decade. Someone like Adam Jones would improve this guys scrummaging surely. We do punch above our weight but it shouldn't end there - we need to maximise every professional player available. For instance we decided to try Owen Williams at 12 - most would agree he played pretty well in his two outings but has since disappeared from the scene both for Gloucester & Wales. 

We cannot afford to not get the absolute best from players like this but I do wonder if we are organised effectively enough. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2019 at 10:09am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

No side with Cawdor, Patchell, Foxy, Liam & Tipuric should be uninventive. Gatland has been hugely influential in bettering this team but I can't help feeling he has missed a trick. Surely we have as many creative players as England. His distrust of players like Anscombe &, for me, our best option still at 10 Rhys has led to a conservative approach. 

The 10/12 axis along with the breakdown have become two absolutely key components of the modern game. 

Something England seem to have got right with Ford and Farrell, abandoning the crash ball 12s they had beforehand and they use Tuilagi very effectively now. Farrell's defensive ability allows him to play there but he is a natural distributor and game controller. Usually makes good decisions. Quite a luxury and more the NZ style second 5/8ths. I watched a bit of their game again and the pace at which they brought players onto the ball against NZ was great to see. The England game was shaped by their dominance at the breakdown, fast ball, turnovers and speed and aggression early on. None of which we had so not really comparable. Cawdor didn't have a good game but was subbed fairly early. Possibly Patchell coming on earlier could have made a difference but our centres, who aren't really natural distributors anyway, were absolutely battered and both were carrying significant injuries. No fault of theirs, we were just out of options by this point and up against a side who looked stronger and healthier than we did.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ladram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2019 at 10:17am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

No side with Cawdor, Patchell, Foxy, Liam & Tipuric should be uninventive. Gatland has been hugely influential in bettering this team but I can't help feeling he has missed a trick. Surely we have as many creative players as England. His distrust of players like Anscombe &, for me, our best option still at 10 Rhys has led to a conservative approach. 

The 10/12 axis along with the breakdown have become two absolutely key components of the modern game. 
agree gareth that gatland has improved us as a team but go back 2 years to the autumn series when the likes of peter Jackson were on scrum v crying out how few players they had used with a view of the world cup,a lot of the players who have come through and shone such as wainwright and josh adams were only given chances due to injuries,how many more unearthed gems have missed the boat for this world cup?

Nigel Gats has always been conservative. He creates a family first atmosphere with the players and no doubt they respond. We talk up our strength in depth but that only goes so far - the past 2 seasons North should not really have been 1st choice - his performances have not warranted it. With his physical attributes he should be causing havoc in opposition defences but he doesn't - most games I cry out for him to get involved but in the main he is anonymous. Do we identify players who have the physical attributes we need and really work on improving them? 

A couple of cases spring to mind - Rhys Carre & Leon Brown. Both are very big guys who are powerful carriers. Carre seems to be the next big thing for our front row but Brown has the ability to play for Wales for a decade. Someone like Adam Jones would improve this guys scrummaging surely. We do punch above our weight but it shouldn't end there - we need to maximise every professional player available. For instance we decided to try Owen Williams at 12 - most would agree he played pretty well in his two outings but has since disappeared from the scene both for Gloucester & Wales. 

We cannot afford to not get the absolute best from players like this but I do wonder if we are organised effectively enough. 
that is exactly what I mean,wainwright and adams have bust a gut to maintain their form and keep their place because they know they are the new kids on the block,that is obviously not the case with north who knows that barring injury he will not be replaced.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sosban89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2019 at 10:48am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

people calling for a different game plan need to realise we were missing our best attacker liam . We had two half fit centres had a centre on the wing and had arguably our first choice 8 9 and 10 out. If we had all those fit i think we’d open up a lot more. Gats is a great coach his cv proves that lions series wins grand slams european cups etc. Short term we are fine tbh chuck in hallolo jonny mac anscombe into that back line rob evans hill toby f and ellis into the pack we will be a lot stronger if anything. Its when guys like foxy alun wyn and ken step down in 2 years it could get messy.  Dee beard and co have huge boots to fill. The wru need to work with regions to ensure that regions get proper funding and that we dont see the likes of dillon lewis sat on the bench while arhip starts. I think the likes of tupric and biggar will be phased out come 6 nations time and certainly by summer tour
You don't need a totally different game plan, but surley you must at least ATTEMPT maybe one phase of going through the backs in their 22? JUST ONCE??

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2019 at 11:05am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

people calling for a different game plan need to realise we were missing our best attacker liam . We had two half fit centres had a centre on the wing and had arguably our first choice 8 9 and 10 out. If we had all those fit i think we’d open up a lot more. Gats is a great coach his cv proves that lions series wins grand slams european cups etc. Short term we are fine tbh chuck in hallolo jonny mac anscombe into that back line rob evans hill toby f and ellis into the pack we will be a lot stronger if anything. Its when guys like foxy alun wyn and ken step down in 2 years it could get messy.  Dee beard and co have huge boots to fill. The wru need to work with regions to ensure that regions get proper funding and that we dont see the likes of dillon lewis sat on the bench while arhip starts. I think the likes of tupric and biggar will be phased out come 6 nations time and certainly by summer tour

Your points are well made. I am not a great fan of Hallaholo but Jonny for me takes North's place. Some serious talent to come back from injury - Faletau being the main guy who we really could do with having an injury free run. 

Our younger players really need to be playing and we should be working with regional coaches to make sure they get game time. Dillon is one Lane must be allowed to play at 13 for the Blues if he is seen as Foxy's replacement. Likewise guys like Dewi Lake should be fast tracked as he will push Dee & Ryan all the way when Ken eventually calls time. Ellis Jenkins for me is a natural to take over at 7 and along with Faletau a strong candidate for captain at the next World Cup when AWJ finally calls time. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2019 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

No side with Cawdor, Patchell, Foxy, Liam & Tipuric should be uninventive. Gatland has been hugely influential in bettering this team but I can't help feeling he has missed a trick. Surely we have as many creative players as England. His distrust of players like Anscombe &, for me, our best option still at 10 Rhys has led to a conservative approach. 

The 10/12 axis along with the breakdown have become two absolutely key components of the modern game. 
agree gareth that gatland has improved us as a team but go back 2 years to the autumn series when the likes of peter Jackson were on scrum v crying out how few players they had used with a view of the world cup,a lot of the players who have come through and shone such as wainwright and josh adams were only given chances due to injuries,how many more unearthed gems have missed the boat for this world cup? Tbh i cant think of any can you?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2019 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

No side with Cawdor, Patchell, Foxy, Liam & Tipuric should be uninventive. Gatland has been hugely influential in bettering this team but I can't help feeling he has missed a trick. Surely we have as many creative players as England. His distrust of players like Anscombe &, for me, our best option still at 10 Rhys has led to a conservative approach. 

The 10/12 axis along with the breakdown have become two absolutely key components of the modern game. 
agree gareth that gatland has improved us as a team but go back 2 years to the autumn series when the likes of peter Jackson were on scrum v crying out how few players they had used with a view of the world cup,a lot of the players who have come through and shone such as wainwright and josh adams were only given chances due to injuries,how many more unearthed gems have missed the boat for this world cup? 
tbh i can’t think of any can you? Lane for amos but we all watch the regions and the aviva no one has really been crying out for and not  been given a chance
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ladram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2019 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

No side with Cawdor, Patchell, Foxy, Liam & Tipuric should be uninventive. Gatland has been hugely influential in bettering this team but I can't help feeling he has missed a trick. Surely we have as many creative players as England. His distrust of players like Anscombe &, for me, our best option still at 10 Rhys has led to a conservative approach. 

The 10/12 axis along with the breakdown have become two absolutely key components of the modern game. 
agree gareth that gatland has improved us as a team but go back 2 years to the autumn series when the likes of peter Jackson were on scrum v crying out how few players they had used with a view of the world cup,a lot of the players who have come through and shone such as wainwright and josh adams were only given chances due to injuries,how many more unearthed gems have missed the boat for this world cup? 
tbh i can’t think of any can you? Lane for amos but we all watch the regions and the aviva no one has really been crying out for and not  been given a chance
my keyword was unearthed if someone had asked you 2 years ago to name the flanker at the world cup would wainwright have been in your top 10 guesses?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2019 at 1:49pm
Wales doesn't have enough top quality international players, especially in some positions... we managed to survive the loss of Warburton and Faletau pretty well, as back row is an area of strength... even when Navidi dropped out, we still had Moriarty at 8, Shingler on the bench and Cubby not even in the 23.

However, centre has become an area of concern - poor Parkes, who played every game, nearly all of them with a broken bone in his hand and a dicey shoulder... and Foxy, who played on one leg v SA... have been heroic. If we'd had top class cover, they would have been left on the bench at most. (No insult to Scott, BTW - I don't think he's fully fit either.) Maybe by the 6N these guys will have recovered, but they'll need a long-ish convalescence, IMHO.

Similarly, we have had a prop problem - the guys out there have done pretty well, but if Francis is out we only have Lewis at TH, and he has only a handful of caps. (Samson and Rob, again, look some way short of full fitness.)

Second row is another weak-ish area (in terms of strength in depth) - AWJ has played pretty much every minute, I think, and looks exhausted... Ball has done well, and now that Beard is back we're a bit better off, but the loss of Cory Hill depleted that department.

So - compared to some other nations with far more players, we do struggle if too many players in the same position get crocked - we at the Scarlets have suffered similar problems in recent years, if too many injuries and/or call-ups to the Wales squad come in the same positions.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hendre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2019 at 2:06pm
Watched Leon Brown since he was 14/15, he couldn’t scrummage then and at 23 he still can’t! If Wales relies on players of that standard over the next 10 years then there will be some lean times ahead. Mind you, Dillon Lewis isn’t much better! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2019 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by Hendre Hendre wrote:

Watched Leon Brown since he was 14/15, he couldn’t scrummage then and at 23 he still can’t! If Wales relies on players of that standard over the next 10 years then there will be some lean times ahead. Mind you, Dillon Lewis isn’t much better! 

I don't quite get that. This is the guy who caused the kick off when Wales had scrummaging practice against England. Apparently Vunipola took great exception to eating grass too many times. Many forum members have said he can't scrummage & I must bow to their superior knowledge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletnut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2019 at 2:34pm
Originally posted by Hendre Hendre wrote:

Watched Leon Brown since he was 14/15, he couldn’t scrummage then and at 23 he still can’t! If Wales relies on players of that standard over the next 10 years then there will be some lean times ahead. Mind you, Dillon Lewis isn’t much better! 
Sale tighthead prop Willgriff John might be worth a look at. Has been scrummaging well in England for the last couple of seasons.
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