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GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 10:39am
Originally posted by Rich (Bris) Rich (Bris) wrote:

Whether Webb is better than Rhodri Williams is a different matter to the one I was responding to (which was about we being a laughing stock over Webb and Bath) and, no, no-one I've spoken to about this has made any comparison between Rhys and Webb.

My comment about only using this site is that I was not aware if the 'laughing stock' comment was brought about by numerous things said on other sites/platforms - as from what I can see it is only 2 or 3 people on here who might seem to think we are a laughing stock over this. And all I'm saying is that I don't think that is the case from the many I've spoken to about this over the past few days (as Webb going to Bath has certainly been discussed a fair it)

My comments about the WRU being a laughing stock are not imported from other sites they are quite long held personal beliefs. From appointing a failed B&Q executive with zero experience of the hospitality industry which, after all, is what the Principality Stadium asset is part of through to the 60 cap rule fiascoes to the Project Reset debacle which led to the Scarlets/Ospreys merger talks during last year's 6 nations & now to another 60 cap rule nonsense with Webb's selection to the National squad. You may not find this a worrying trend but I do. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich (Bris) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 10:53am
Ah there's much in what you say - but I didn't and don't think the Webb and Bath matter is making WRU a laughing stock (and that is what I thought I was responding to)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NobbySosban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 10:55am
Since he was injured and lost his form in Toulon, it's easy to forget that Webb was the 1st choice scrum half for Wales, with 2 B&I Lions Test appearances in New Zealand, and was effectively the only 'victim' of the new WRU '60 cap' policy.

It's possible that making him an exception for him in the 2020 squad is an acknowledgement of that, and may have been part of the deal to entice him back to the Os from next season. I doubt they could afford him for the rest of the season (esp if WRU isn't chipping in 80%), but playing himself back into form down the road at Bath makes some sense for strength at depth at 9.

He had a go at one of the top clubs in world rugby, and it didn't quite work out, for his family or (temporarily?) his career, although I'm sure he earned a fair crust there, but I kind of admire him for trying a different life.

My main issue is that any blurring of clear lines in the '60-cap' policy leads to confusion and more arguments for 'exceptions' to be made. Those applying the situation to Rhys Priestland perhaps haven't considered that he may not want to play for Wales again after his shoddy previous treatment by the RMWP, but I'm bemused that Rhodri Williams hasn't been included in the squad for both his form and his commitment to play in Wales.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 10:57am
Originally posted by Rich (Bris) Rich (Bris) wrote:

Ah there's much in what you say - but I didn't and don't think the Webb and Bath matter is making WRU a laughing stock (and that is what I thought I was responding to)

I agree Rich - Webb to anyone to get some minutes under his belt is a good idea but my issues are a lot deeper. Sorry for any misunderstanding. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletnut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 11:16am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

No drama, just a catalogue of confused thinking and clearly un-scripted outcomes, played out in the public domain.

All for a 3rd choice scrum half.


Precisely. Doesn't everyone see the total nonsense that now exists with Webb & Priestland playing for Bath. One has 30 caps the other 50. One is available to play for Wales the other isn't. This is what happens when you have people in charge of Welsh rugby who really don't get it. We are a laughing stock. 
You want to scrap a rule that has significantly strengthened the Scarlets. All the regions and PRB are in complete agreement over the 60 cap law. If it wasn’t there you’d be moaning about the amount of players leaving us. I don’t agree with the Webb situation though 

I want Wales to be able to select their very best 23 players wherever they play. I want all professional players to be able to maximise their earnings without the threat of being ostracised from their National team. 

It is pretty easy to make statements about 20 or so players would have left the Scarlets if it were not for the 60 cap rule and then proceed to not name anyone. My point is pretty simple - the 60 cap rule did not entice Liam back to the Scarlets. He could have probably got more money playing in France but the combination of a good salary from the WRU/Scarlets along with his guaranteed appearance money from playing for Wales along with the undoubted better health & fitness regime in Wales made his decision fairly simple. 

As for the Rhys Webb saga I defy anyone who loves Welsh rugby to suggest that the whole episode has not brought Welsh rugby into disrepute. Firstly we have a player who has 30+ caps but over 10 years regional service suddenly becoming unavailable; then he suddenly becomes available while still being paid by Toulon; then he is parachuted into the Welsh squad despite very little game time when genuine contenders who are fit and firing and abiding by the rules are not considered - Rhodri & Aled.

My long standing criticism of the 60 rule is that it is unworkable as there are always going to be anomalies as a one size fits all rule never works. Look at Rhys Priestland - not available to play as he has only 50 caps but could not return to Wales despite 10 years regional service because he could not find a region to employ him; Tomas Francis no regional service and a rolling contract renewal with Exeter but available. Jonny McNichol has a little over 3 years regional service but is available. 

If anyone reading this can honestly stand up and say they agree with all of it and it doesn't make you embarrassed then I feel great sympathy for you. 
Well everyone on the PRB disagrees with you. No 60 cap law equals a far weaker Scarlets. It's as simple as that really. Also you'll see the benefits of it after the Six Nations with many exiles returning to play in Wales. Scrap this law and you may as well scrap the regions. Presumably you think the RFU, IRFU, ARU and NZRU are a shambles as well?

Edited by scarletnut - 26 February 2020 at 11:16am
I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gate12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 11:36am
I think the issue with anything involving Rhys Webb at the moment is that it'll always bring the wider issues around him and the 60 cap rule, and now exception, into a discussion, him going to Bath isn't really a talking point.
 
 
Don't think we'll ever know the full truth about his move to Toulon, so just dealing with recent events (the exceptions at 9 and 10) I don't see any justification for bending the rules for Webb or Priestland. In Webb's case every first choice 9 at the regions, who were all capped, were fit (apart from Cawdor for the first game) for the 6 nations and for Priestland 2 of the first choice 10's at regions, again already capped, were fit (Jarrod Evans and Sam Davies).
 
 
I'd consider an exception to be where we're considering a firmly second choice 10 from a region or someone from the under 20's to step up, and even then they may be the better long term option.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote PE SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

No drama, just a catalogue of confused thinking and clearly un-scripted outcomes, played out in the public domain.

All for a 3rd choice scrum half.


Precisely. Doesn't everyone see the total nonsense that now exists with Webb & Priestland playing for Bath. One has 30 caps the other 50. One is available to play for Wales the other isn't. This is what happens when you have people in charge of Welsh rugby who really don't get it. We are a laughing stock. 
You want to scrap a rule that has significantly strengthened the Scarlets. All the regions and PRB are in complete agreement over the 60 cap law. If it wasn’t there you’d be moaning about the amount of players leaving us. I don’t agree with the Webb situation though 

I want Wales to be able to select their very best 23 players wherever they play. I want all professional players to be able to maximise their earnings without the threat of being ostracised from their National team. 

It is pretty easy to make statements about 20 or so players would have left the Scarlets if it were not for the 60 cap rule and then proceed to not name anyone. My point is pretty simple - the 60 cap rule did not entice Liam back to the Scarlets. He could have probably got more money playing in France but the combination of a good salary from the WRU/Scarlets along with his guaranteed appearance money from playing for Wales along with the undoubted better health & fitness regime in Wales made his decision fairly simple. 

As for the Rhys Webb saga I defy anyone who loves Welsh rugby to suggest that the whole episode has not brought Welsh rugby into disrepute. Firstly we have a player who has 30+ caps but over 10 years regional service suddenly becoming unavailable; then he suddenly becomes available while still being paid by Toulon; then he is parachuted into the Welsh squad despite very little game time when genuine contenders who are fit and firing and abiding by the rules are not considered - Rhodri & Aled.

My long standing criticism of the 60 rule is that it is unworkable as there are always going to be anomalies as a one size fits all rule never works. Look at Rhys Priestland - not available to play as he has only 50 caps but could not return to Wales despite 10 years regional service because he could not find a region to employ him; Tomas Francis no regional service and a rolling contract renewal with Exeter but available. Jonny McNichol has a little over 3 years regional service but is available. 

If anyone reading this can honestly stand up and say they agree with all of it and it doesn't make you embarrassed then I feel great sympathy for you. 
 
The flipside was where it was heading though.
If things didnt change, we would have had over the last 5 years:
15. Halfpenny (Toulon)
14. North (Northampton)
13. Foxy (Clermont)
12. Roberts (Bath)
11. Liam (Sarries)
10. Biggar (Northamton)
9. Webb (Toulon)
8. Faletau (Bath)
7. Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues)
6. Morriarty (Gloucester)
5. Ball (Northampton)
4. AWJ (Ospreys)
3. Francis (Exeter)
2. Ken Owen (Scarlets)
1. Smith/Evans/Jones (Ospreys/Scarlets)

it wasnt even that long ago when the above was a stark reality with many asking questions if Wales were fielding a side where majority played outside of Wales...what exaclty is the point of the regions?
To me though, that looks painful.
Add to that players like Josh Adams...would have stayed where he was if the rule was not in place. Anscombe would have left Wales, Priestland already did, Rhys Gill now has but is not captured (dont get me started on that)...so it already filters down to squad players.
But because these players (or majority) have chosen to stay in Wales don't forget that means the extra time that the Welsh Coaches get with the selected squad.
If the above line ups were in place at their clubs outside of Wales, then we would have had no team for that 4th International and also, the coaches would have had the players in camp MUCH less. So its a huge benefit for both regions and Wales to have the players stay in Wales. If you want the strongest team available for Wales, then surely you must look beyond the starting 15 and the added time Team Wales coaches get with the squad because of the agreement with the regions.

I can not understand why any regional rugby fan would be against the 60 cap rule. I can understand the argument coming from a Team Wales only fan who has zero interest in the regions, but don't we all want a competitive Scarlets team and Wales team on here?
surely this is the only way rugby wise and business wise.
Welsh regions, with their internationals.

You have been vocal before that you want more and more Welsh coaches etc....why would you want a potential Wales team, even squad, filled with players playing outside Wales? that is where it was heading.

I personally love seeing the playing come through making their debuts in the Scarlet jersey, cementing themselves into the first 15 then getting a call up and then representing the Scarlets for Wales. Seeing the current side filled with so many Scarlet players is another part I enjoy. Seeing in the match programme Leigh Halfpenny - Toulon, George North - Northampton, Jon Davies - Clermont etc...that was a very sad feeling and to be honest with you, I lost so much joy with the international game as I felt very little affinity. Dont get me wrong, Im Welsh and I supported them etc...but personally, there's an extra passion to the support that I cant describe when our own lads are playing for Wales representing the team the region we all support.



Edited by PE SA - 26 February 2020 at 12:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dai38 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 1:25pm
PE SA, I congratulate you on your post.

I have gone on record that the 60 cap rule is 100% correct.

One point that I have made and not embarrassed to make again, what effect would that team have on the young supporters, they would not see what I saw when I grew up. D K Jones was my hero, and then players came around my age,  Barry John, Gerald Davies, very briefly in the Scarlet jersey, and then Delme, Derek, & Phil, all know by their 1st name. 

It is so important for the future of the game, see the young players at half time, walking around with a huge smile. 

You just can not beat it.
Be careful when you pick up the stick.........IT MAY BE THE WRONG END!!!!!!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by PE SA PE SA wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

No drama, just a catalogue of confused thinking and clearly un-scripted outcomes, played out in the public domain.

All for a 3rd choice scrum half.


Precisely. Doesn't everyone see the total nonsense that now exists with Webb & Priestland playing for Bath. One has 30 caps the other 50. One is available to play for Wales the other isn't. This is what happens when you have people in charge of Welsh rugby who really don't get it. We are a laughing stock. 
You want to scrap a rule that has significantly strengthened the Scarlets. All the regions and PRB are in complete agreement over the 60 cap law. If it wasn’t there you’d be moaning about the amount of players leaving us. I don’t agree with the Webb situation though 

I want Wales to be able to select their very best 23 players wherever they play. I want all professional players to be able to maximise their earnings without the threat of being ostracised from their National team. 

It is pretty easy to make statements about 20 or so players would have left the Scarlets if it were not for the 60 cap rule and then proceed to not name anyone. My point is pretty simple - the 60 cap rule did not entice Liam back to the Scarlets. He could have probably got more money playing in France but the combination of a good salary from the WRU/Scarlets along with his guaranteed appearance money from playing for Wales along with the undoubted better health & fitness regime in Wales made his decision fairly simple. 

As for the Rhys Webb saga I defy anyone who loves Welsh rugby to suggest that the whole episode has not brought Welsh rugby into disrepute. Firstly we have a player who has 30+ caps but over 10 years regional service suddenly becoming unavailable; then he suddenly becomes available while still being paid by Toulon; then he is parachuted into the Welsh squad despite very little game time when genuine contenders who are fit and firing and abiding by the rules are not considered - Rhodri & Aled.

My long standing criticism of the 60 rule is that it is unworkable as there are always going to be anomalies as a one size fits all rule never works. Look at Rhys Priestland - not available to play as he has only 50 caps but could not return to Wales despite 10 years regional service because he could not find a region to employ him; Tomas Francis no regional service and a rolling contract renewal with Exeter but available. Jonny McNichol has a little over 3 years regional service but is available. 

If anyone reading this can honestly stand up and say they agree with all of it and it doesn't make you embarrassed then I feel great sympathy for you. 
 
The flipside was where it was heading though.
If things didnt change, we would have had over the last 5 years:
15. Halfpenny (Toulon)
14. North (Northampton)
13. Foxy (Clermont)
12. Roberts (Bath)
11. Liam (Sarries)
10. Biggar (Northamton)
9. Webb (Toulon)
8. Faletau (Bath)
7. Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues)
6. Morriarty (Gloucester)
5. Ball (Northampton)
4. AWJ (Ospreys)
3. Francis (Exeter)
2. Ken Owen (Scarlets)
1. Smith/Evans/Jones (Ospreys/Scarlets)

it wasnt even that long ago when the above was a stark reality with many asking questions if Wales were fielding a side where majority played outside of Wales...what exaclty is the point of the regions?
To me though, that looks painful.
Add to that players like Josh Adams...would have stayed where he was if the rule was not in place. Anscombe would have left Wales, Priestland already did, Rhys Gill now has but is not captured (dont get me started on that)...so it already filters down to squad players.
But because these players (or majority) have chosen to stay in Wales don't forget that means the extra time that the Welsh Coaches get with the selected squad.
If the above line ups were in place at their clubs outside of Wales, then we would have had no team for that 4th International and also, the coaches would have had the players in camp MUCH less. So its a huge benefit for both regions and Wales to have the players stay in Wales. If you want the strongest team available for Wales, then surely you must look beyond the starting 15 and the added time Team Wales coaches get with the squad because of the agreement with the regions.

I can not understand why any regional rugby fan would be against the 60 cap rule. I can understand the argument coming from a Team Wales only fan who has zero interest in the regions, but don't we all want a competitive Scarlets team and Wales team on here?
surely this is the only way rugby wise and business wise.
Welsh regions, with their internationals.

You have been vocal before that you want more and more Welsh coaches etc....why would you want a potential Wales team, even squad, filled with players playing outside Wales? that is where it was heading.

I personally love seeing the playing come through making their debuts in the Scarlet jersey, cementing themselves into the first 15 then getting a call up and then representing the Scarlets for Wales. Seeing the current side filled with so many Scarlet players is another part I enjoy. Seeing in the match programme Leigh Halfpenny - Toulon, George North - Northampton, Jon Davies - Clermont etc...that was a very sad feeling and to be honest with you, I lost so much joy with the international game as I felt very little affinity. Dont get me wrong, Im Welsh and I supported them etc...but personally, there's an extra passion to the support that I cant describe when our own lads are playing for Wales representing the team the region we all support.


First question is this - how on earth is wanting the strongest 23 players for Wales & wanting a strong Scarlets squad mutually exclusive? A lot of nonsense is talked about the 60 cap rule & it can be summed up by your team selected above. Of the 15 players Roberts, Biggar, Francis and Faletau still play outside Wales. Halfpenny, Liam, North & Foxy certainly didn't return because of the 60 cap rule. Ball to Northampton is pure conjecture & the only players in that team who have returned to Wales possibly because of the 60 cap rule are Moriarty & Webb. Now Moriarty came back because the Dragons threw an exorbitant amount of money at him which, by the way, will not be repeated by the WRU under the new rules and Webb is 3rd/4th/5th choice for us and is not wanted at the moment by the Ospreys. 

I have indeed been vocal about giving Welsh coaches a chance - again that is not in any way contradictory to my dislike of the 60 cap rule. A one size fits all rule will never work & instances like the Webb/Priestland nonsense affects the credibility of the whole game in Wales. 

Finally coming back to your imaginary 15 the only other players I have not dealt with are AWJ, Warburton, Ken & a loose head. Of these only Ken & the loose head would have been subject to the 60 cap rule so I totally fail to see what point you are trying to make. A total of 20 players has been quoted as staying with the Scarlets because of the 60 cap rule. To date I have not seen any evidence of one. I remain totally convinced that by far the biggest reason why players want to remain within our regional set up is the added health & fitness benefits available in Wales along with their increased chances of selection by being available for all training sessions both of which have absolutely nothing to do with the 60 cap rule. 

I too share your joy at seeing local boys like Dan Davis & Baldwin making their way in the game & establishing themselves in the Scarlet team but i really don't care if Foxy is playing for Clermont or us when it comes to watching Wales. he, like every other player, is entitled to maximise his earnings from a very short career. Indeed a very strong case can be made for encouraging established Internationals to move on & make way for the development of the next generation. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

No drama, just a catalogue of confused thinking and clearly un-scripted outcomes, played out in the public domain.

All for a 3rd choice scrum half.


Precisely. Doesn't everyone see the total nonsense that now exists with Webb & Priestland playing for Bath. One has 30 caps the other 50. One is available to play for Wales the other isn't. This is what happens when you have people in charge of Welsh rugby who really don't get it. We are a laughing stock. 
You want to scrap a rule that has significantly strengthened the Scarlets. All the regions and PRB are in complete agreement over the 60 cap law. If it wasn’t there you’d be moaning about the amount of players leaving us. I don’t agree with the Webb situation though 

I want Wales to be able to select their very best 23 players wherever they play. I want all professional players to be able to maximise their earnings without the threat of being ostracised from their National team. 

It is pretty easy to make statements about 20 or so players would have left the Scarlets if it were not for the 60 cap rule and then proceed to not name anyone. My point is pretty simple - the 60 cap rule did not entice Liam back to the Scarlets. He could have probably got more money playing in France but the combination of a good salary from the WRU/Scarlets along with his guaranteed appearance money from playing for Wales along with the undoubted better health & fitness regime in Wales made his decision fairly simple. 

As for the Rhys Webb saga I defy anyone who loves Welsh rugby to suggest that the whole episode has not brought Welsh rugby into disrepute. Firstly we have a player who has 30+ caps but over 10 years regional service suddenly becoming unavailable; then he suddenly becomes available while still being paid by Toulon; then he is parachuted into the Welsh squad despite very little game time when genuine contenders who are fit and firing and abiding by the rules are not considered - Rhodri & Aled.

My long standing criticism of the 60 rule is that it is unworkable as there are always going to be anomalies as a one size fits all rule never works. Look at Rhys Priestland - not available to play as he has only 50 caps but could not return to Wales despite 10 years regional service because he could not find a region to employ him; Tomas Francis no regional service and a rolling contract renewal with Exeter but available. Jonny McNichol has a little over 3 years regional service but is available. 

If anyone reading this can honestly stand up and say they agree with all of it and it doesn't make you embarrassed then I feel great sympathy for you. 
Well everyone on the PRB disagrees with you. No 60 cap law equals a far weaker Scarlets. It's as simple as that really. Also you'll see the benefits of it after the Six Nations with many exiles returning to play in Wales. Scrap this law and you may as well scrap the regions. Presumably you think the RFU, IRFU, ARU and NZRU are a shambles as well?

Scrap the 60 cap rule and you may as well scrap the regions - you heard it here first folks - what a load of bull..... . No I don't actually think that the other unions are a shambles because there are many more reasons other than the 60 cap rule why I consider the WRU as a shambles most of which I have explained recently. I do however think that any union who tries to arbitrarily enforce a means of measuring a players loyalty to his country is destined to fail. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 2:02pm
Originally posted by Dai38 Dai38 wrote:

PE SA, I congratulate you on your post.

I have gone on record that the 60 cap rule is 100% correct.

One point that I have made and not embarrassed to make again, what effect would that team have on the young supporters, they would not see what I saw when I grew up. D K Jones was my hero, and then players came around my age,  Barry John, Gerald Davies, very briefly in the Scarlet jersey, and then Delme, Derek, & Phil, all know by their 1st name. 

It is so important for the future of the game, see the young players at half time, walking around with a huge smile. 

You just can not beat it.

Oh for the nostalgia. In case you haven't noticed Dai the game is now professional and a million miles away from your halycon days. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

No drama, just a catalogue of confused thinking and clearly un-scripted outcomes, played out in the public domain.

All for a 3rd choice scrum half.


Precisely. Doesn't everyone see the total nonsense that now exists with Webb & Priestland playing for Bath. One has 30 caps the other 50. One is available to play for Wales the other isn't. This is what happens when you have people in charge of Welsh rugby who really don't get it. We are a laughing stock. 
You want to scrap a rule that has significantly strengthened the Scarlets. All the regions and PRB are in complete agreement over the 60 cap law. If it wasn’t there you’d be moaning about the amount of players leaving us. I don’t agree with the Webb situation though 

I want Wales to be able to select their very best 23 players wherever they play. I want all professional players to be able to maximise their earnings without the threat of being ostracised from their National team. 

It is pretty easy to make statements about 20 or so players would have left the Scarlets if it were not for the 60 cap rule and then proceed to not name anyone. My point is pretty simple - the 60 cap rule did not entice Liam back to the Scarlets. He could have probably got more money playing in France but the combination of a good salary from the WRU/Scarlets along with his guaranteed appearance money from playing for Wales along with the undoubted better health & fitness regime in Wales made his decision fairly simple. 

As for the Rhys Webb saga I defy anyone who loves Welsh rugby to suggest that the whole episode has not brought Welsh rugby into disrepute. Firstly we have a player who has 30+ caps but over 10 years regional service suddenly becoming unavailable; then he suddenly becomes available while still being paid by Toulon; then he is parachuted into the Welsh squad despite very little game time when genuine contenders who are fit and firing and abiding by the rules are not considered - Rhodri & Aled.

My long standing criticism of the 60 rule is that it is unworkable as there are always going to be anomalies as a one size fits all rule never works. Look at Rhys Priestland - not available to play as he has only 50 caps but could not return to Wales despite 10 years regional service because he could not find a region to employ him; Tomas Francis no regional service and a rolling contract renewal with Exeter but available. Jonny McNichol has a little over 3 years regional service but is available. 

If anyone reading this can honestly stand up and say they agree with all of it and it doesn't make you embarrassed then I feel great sympathy for you. 
Well everyone on the PRB disagrees with you. No 60 cap law equals a far weaker Scarlets. It's as simple as that really. Also you'll see the benefits of it after the Six Nations with many exiles returning to play in Wales. Scrap this law and you may as well scrap the regions. Presumably you think the RFU, IRFU, ARU and NZRU are a shambles as well?

One further point Scarletnut of the unions mentioned to my knowledge only one has a cap rule. All the other unions have a very clear unambiguous ruling. Play in England, Ireland or New Zealand and play for England, Ireland or New Zealand. That is a totally different situation. Are you really holding up the ARU as a bastion of common sense to be followed by us? The same union who made themselves look idiotic in their handing of the Folau case and who are on the brink of financial failure. I am afraid my aspirations/expectations for Welsh rugby are a little higher than that. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PE SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 5:50pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by PE SA PE SA wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

No drama, just a catalogue of confused thinking and clearly un-scripted outcomes, played out in the public domain.

All for a 3rd choice scrum half.


Precisely. Doesn't everyone see the total nonsense that now exists with Webb & Priestland playing for Bath. One has 30 caps the other 50. One is available to play for Wales the other isn't. This is what happens when you have people in charge of Welsh rugby who really don't get it. We are a laughing stock. 
You want to scrap a rule that has significantly strengthened the Scarlets. All the regions and PRB are in complete agreement over the 60 cap law. If it wasn’t there you’d be moaning about the amount of players leaving us. I don’t agree with the Webb situation though 

I want Wales to be able to select their very best 23 players wherever they play. I want all professional players to be able to maximise their earnings without the threat of being ostracised from their National team. 

It is pretty easy to make statements about 20 or so players would have left the Scarlets if it were not for the 60 cap rule and then proceed to not name anyone. My point is pretty simple - the 60 cap rule did not entice Liam back to the Scarlets. He could have probably got more money playing in France but the combination of a good salary from the WRU/Scarlets along with his guaranteed appearance money from playing for Wales along with the undoubted better health & fitness regime in Wales made his decision fairly simple. 

As for the Rhys Webb saga I defy anyone who loves Welsh rugby to suggest that the whole episode has not brought Welsh rugby into disrepute. Firstly we have a player who has 30+ caps but over 10 years regional service suddenly becoming unavailable; then he suddenly becomes available while still being paid by Toulon; then he is parachuted into the Welsh squad despite very little game time when genuine contenders who are fit and firing and abiding by the rules are not considered - Rhodri & Aled.

My long standing criticism of the 60 rule is that it is unworkable as there are always going to be anomalies as a one size fits all rule never works. Look at Rhys Priestland - not available to play as he has only 50 caps but could not return to Wales despite 10 years regional service because he could not find a region to employ him; Tomas Francis no regional service and a rolling contract renewal with Exeter but available. Jonny McNichol has a little over 3 years regional service but is available. 

If anyone reading this can honestly stand up and say they agree with all of it and it doesn't make you embarrassed then I feel great sympathy for you. 
 
The flipside was where it was heading though.
If things didnt change, we would have had over the last 5 years:
15. Halfpenny (Toulon)
14. North (Northampton)
13. Foxy (Clermont)
12. Roberts (Bath)
11. Liam (Sarries)
10. Biggar (Northamton)
9. Webb (Toulon)
8. Faletau (Bath)
7. Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues)
6. Morriarty (Gloucester)
5. Ball (Northampton)
4. AWJ (Ospreys)
3. Francis (Exeter)
2. Ken Owen (Scarlets)
1. Smith/Evans/Jones (Ospreys/Scarlets)

it wasnt even that long ago when the above was a stark reality with many asking questions if Wales were fielding a side where majority played outside of Wales...what exaclty is the point of the regions?
To me though, that looks painful.
Add to that players like Josh Adams...would have stayed where he was if the rule was not in place. Anscombe would have left Wales, Priestland already did, Rhys Gill now has but is not captured (dont get me started on that)...so it already filters down to squad players.
But because these players (or majority) have chosen to stay in Wales don't forget that means the extra time that the Welsh Coaches get with the selected squad.
If the above line ups were in place at their clubs outside of Wales, then we would have had no team for that 4th International and also, the coaches would have had the players in camp MUCH less. So its a huge benefit for both regions and Wales to have the players stay in Wales. If you want the strongest team available for Wales, then surely you must look beyond the starting 15 and the added time Team Wales coaches get with the squad because of the agreement with the regions.

I can not understand why any regional rugby fan would be against the 60 cap rule. I can understand the argument coming from a Team Wales only fan who has zero interest in the regions, but don't we all want a competitive Scarlets team and Wales team on here?
surely this is the only way rugby wise and business wise.
Welsh regions, with their internationals.

You have been vocal before that you want more and more Welsh coaches etc....why would you want a potential Wales team, even squad, filled with players playing outside Wales? that is where it was heading.

I personally love seeing the playing come through making their debuts in the Scarlet jersey, cementing themselves into the first 15 then getting a call up and then representing the Scarlets for Wales. Seeing the current side filled with so many Scarlet players is another part I enjoy. Seeing in the match programme Leigh Halfpenny - Toulon, George North - Northampton, Jon Davies - Clermont etc...that was a very sad feeling and to be honest with you, I lost so much joy with the international game as I felt very little affinity. Dont get me wrong, Im Welsh and I supported them etc...but personally, there's an extra passion to the support that I cant describe when our own lads are playing for Wales representing the team the region we all support.


First question is this - how on earth is wanting the strongest 23 players for Wales & wanting a strong Scarlets squad mutually exclusive? A lot of nonsense is talked about the 60 cap rule & it can be summed up by your team selected above. Of the 15 players Roberts, Biggar, Francis and Faletau still play outside Wales. Halfpenny, Liam, North & Foxy certainly didn't return because of the 60 cap rule. Ball to Northampton is pure conjecture & the only players in that team who have returned to Wales possibly because of the 60 cap rule are Moriarty & Webb. Now Moriarty came back because the Dragons threw an exorbitant amount of money at him which, by the way, will not be repeated by the WRU under the new rules and Webb is 3rd/4th/5th choice for us and is not wanted at the moment by the Ospreys. 

I have indeed been vocal about giving Welsh coaches a chance - again that is not in any way contradictory to my dislike of the 60 cap rule. A one size fits all rule will never work & instances like the Webb/Priestland nonsense affects the credibility of the whole game in Wales. 

Finally coming back to your imaginary 15 the only other players I have not dealt with are AWJ, Warburton, Ken & a loose head. Of these only Ken & the loose head would have been subject to the 60 cap rule so I totally fail to see what point you are trying to make. A total of 20 players has been quoted as staying with the Scarlets because of the 60 cap rule. To date I have not seen any evidence of one. I remain totally convinced that by far the biggest reason why players want to remain within our regional set up is the added health & fitness benefits available in Wales along with their increased chances of selection by being available for all training sessions both of which have absolutely nothing to do with the 60 cap rule. 

I too share your joy at seeing local boys like Dan Davis & Baldwin making their way in the game & establishing themselves in the Scarlet team but i really don't care if Foxy is playing for Clermont or us when it comes to watching Wales. he, like every other player, is entitled to maximise his earnings from a very short career. Indeed a very strong case can be made for encouraging established Internationals to move on & make way for the development of the next generation. 
Foxy was on record stating if he was not given a NDC, he would have stayed at clermont. The NDC in part was a step towards the rule. Jake Ball again, if he wasn't given a NDC he WOULD have gone to Northampton. As for the rest, it's not imaginary. They all left and played for Wales whilst outside Wales. There was no fun in that for me. 
WRU aren't stopping players becoming internationals with this rule. If they choose to gain bigger earnings, they can leave. Just like an All Black can leave, an English Rugby player can leave, Irish internationals can leave (slightly different with Ireland with their tax) but the option is there for them. Without the 60cap rule, the squad would not be in place if they played in England and France. Yes the added benefits that they are looked after etc is also a big factor especially for the players getting older. Rob Evans on his last renewal stated that he wants to play for Wales so leaving for an English team was simply a no go for him and he couldn't see himself playing for another region. 
So it does and has worked. 

Unless you think these players have had no options from England/France. 

We shall agree to disagree on it. 

But personallly, i think it's great for the regions and Wales. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dai38 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 6:30pm
GPR-----I fully appreciate that the game is now professional, what I do not appreciate is people not respecting other points of view.

We are a  "a million miles away"  away from agreeing, but I must admit being patronised is never a good way of getting me to be sensible, and to continue the discussion. 

The team PE SA had down would have happened, if you want the strongest Welsh team then that is fine.......to my knowledge only Webb is missing when everyone is fit. I have ignored Priestland because he left Wales to keep his sanity.

This will probably be my last post on the site for a while, so congratulations for free speech and respecting free speech and other peoples opinion.

Nos da and may your God go with you
Be careful when you pick up the stick.........IT MAY BE THE WRONG END!!!!!!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 6:52pm
Originally posted by Dai38 Dai38 wrote:

GPR-----I fully appreciate that the game is now professional, what I do not appreciate is people not respecting other points of view.

We are a  "a million miles away"  away from agreeing, but I must admit being patronised is never a good way of getting me to be sensible, and to continue the discussion. 

The team PE SA had down would have happened, if you want the strongest Welsh team then that is fine.......to my knowledge only Webb is missing when everyone is fit. I have ignored Priestland because he left Wales to keep his sanity.

This will probably be my last post on the site for a while, so congratulations for free speech and respecting free speech and other peoples opinion.

Nos da and may your God go with you
Dai, 
Please disregard the criticism. 

You post extremely well and thoughtfully. Objectivity is to the fore in your posts.

Throughout life, someone tells someone else that they’re not good enough far too often, partly because it’s always easier to criticise than discuss objectively.

While the Moderators would probably not enforce a policy of, “Of you can’t be nice to each other, you can’t post on the forum” I suspect that they’d probably like to lean that way, possibly with the exception of SA14.........that’s a joke by the way.

The forum needs all the sensible posters and enthusiasts that it can get.

The Mods filter out the trolls, sometimes with more patience than many would prefer. However, they’re the folk who’ve volunteered to do this unpaid work in their spare time and it is their prerogative.

GPR is an ardent fan, a huge enthusiast, an indispensable part of the Baz Lewis Predictions League. He’s a fully committed Scarlet which “nobody can deny”.

He, like many of us, can feel passionately about a particular issue and express those sentiments fully. Occasionally, those strong views might be 180 degrees to other sensible posters.

Hopefully, there’s a bit of live and let live for the fully accredited, card-carrying, Scarlets through and through posters. For trolls, clearly the opposite applies.

After a little reflection and deep breathing, maybe normal service can be resumed.

Dai - stick with it
In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 February 2020 at 7:19pm
Good post EO. Dai--valued poster--crack on with those posts please...

Blood is running a little high, GPR has taken a few hits too by the way.

I think G12 has it about right, issuing the exception to Webb doesn't really follow through well.

The fact he's playing for Bath is just a small twist in the plot that I, for one, find quite ironic.
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