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Welsh RegionsFunding

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PE SA View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27 March 2017 at 4:11pm
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KID A View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 March 2017 at 5:27pm
That's nearly 3 months old. Pretty good article though in fairness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PE SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 March 2017 at 9:11pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

That's nearly 3 months old. Pretty good article though in fairness.

Yes an old article, but only came across it today and I've not noticed it on here over the last 2months.
With the state of pro rugby, WRU take over of dragons, another take over on the cards with the blues, relevant IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 March 2017 at 10:06pm
Bowing to the more learned posters, above and elsewhere on here, I'd appreciate some clarification and hope you can all help.

Of the £9.6m of direct funding from the WRU, how does that divide between each region and what is paid over and above the Dual Contract money from the WRU?

How much of the £9.7m income passes through the WRU rather than is income they earn and then distribute to the regions? I'm under the (mis?) apprehension that the competition income belongs to the regions and it merely passes through the WRU as part of an accounting function/political settlement.

How much does it take to run a region, if you have to pay for your own premises?

Why is there a bigger spending three? Does that mean that a fourth hasn't been spending the money? Or it hasn't spent the money as it should have?

Peter Thomas is quoted as saying that unless regional rugby can have similar budgets to those in England and France, rugby at regional level will wither. He's really saying that anything below the national team will be uncompetitive.

Barring a stay at home to play for Wales, restraint of trade, approach, the foundations crumble. We all know what happens when a strong wind blows.............🤒😷💨🌪🙀💀☠️

Has anyone explained precisely why our TV revenue is a pittance compared to the Aviva and Top14?
Has there been any negligence in the negotiations? If so, is anyone personally liable?

What guarantees do the participants in, and fans of, the PRO12 have that the negotiations will be conducted on an arms length, commercial basis next time round - not so far away.

Changing the subject and going on to how things are supposed to happen, how is the money supposed to be divided between the regions?

For example, why does one side get the Lions' share of the loot and the others pick up the scraps?

Is this the sort of governance that Martyn Philips and Gareth Davies are onside with, or do they have to put up with it due to previous encumbents?

Maybe the PRW are best placed to answer this, unless the WRU are happy to open up.

Why don't we find out, or is there a less palatable set of answers?

We need to focus on driving the grass roots and regional sides to greater achievement. Without them, I believe the national team will struggle, despite the best efforts of the supremely talented.

Comments eagerly awaited.
Any offence taken on board is only a literate/cy consequence. Every attempt at humour is just that. No personal insult intended. Standards lowered for trolls.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2017 at 10:23am
I'm no expert, but I'll give it a shot.
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:


Of the £9.6m of direct funding from the WRU, how does that divide between each region and what is paid over and above the Dual Contract money from the WRU?


As the article says, the direct funding is £7.5m. That includes a core funding element, a NWQ player element and I believe £150k towards running each academy.

The majority (around £6.8m apparently) is set aside for player release, according to Simon Thomas this is the amount that differs between region to region depending on the amount of players supplied to Wales.

An additional £2.1m is set aside for NDC players (the majority is given to the Ospreys at the moment) and the regions set aside £1.2m between them to top this up.


Quote How much of the £9.7m income passes through the WRU rather than is income they earn and then distribute to the regions? I'm under the (mis?) apprehension that the competition income belongs to the regions and it merely passes through the WRU as part of an accounting function/political settlement.


Correct. It's all money owed to the regions. Alledgedly, the WRU insist that they get it first - in order for their turnover to be higher, so that they can meet regulations set by Barclays bank that link to their repayments for the stadium.

Quote How much does it take to run a region, if you have to pay for your own premises?


It costs around £10m a year to run the Scarlets. Around £5m to £6m of that is for staff wages. That includes wages of stadium managers, groundsman, chefs and shop assistants. The wage bill for our players is somewhere between £4.5m and £5m.

Quote Why is there a bigger spending three? Does that mean that a fourth hasn't been spending the money? Or it hasn't spent the money as it should have?


According to those in the know, the Dragons have only been spending around £2.5m on player wages for the last few seasons.

Quote Has anyone explained precisely why our TV revenue is a pittance compared to the Aviva and Top14?
Has there been any negligence in the negotiations? If so, is anyone personally liable?


The TV revenue is pittance, because nobody is prepared to pay any more than a pittance. The value of a product is as much as someone is willing to pay for it. That just shows how much the Pro12 is valued by the top tv companies. It is worth a quarter as much as the Aviva Premiership, and about an eighth as much as the French league.

Quote What guarantees do the participants in, and fans of, the PRO12 have that the negotiations will be conducted on an arms length, commercial basis next time round - not so far away.


The pro12 can negotiate as hard as they want but it doesn't mean they are going to get any more than they currently do.

Quote Changing the subject and going on to how things are supposed to happen, how is the money supposed to be divided between the regions?

For example, why does one side get the Lions' share of the loot and the others pick up the scraps?

Is this the sort of governance that Martyn Philips and Gareth Davies are onside with, or do they have to put up with it due to previous encumbents?

Maybe the PRW are best placed to answer this, unless the WRU are happy to open up.

Why don't we find out, or is there a less palatable set of answers?

We need to focus on driving the grass roots and regional sides to greater achievement. Without them, I believe the national team will struggle, despite the best efforts of the supremely talented.

Comments eagerly awaited.


I think PRW have many questions to answer. Why there was that farce earlier this season where no test players were released for the derbies remains a mystery to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ap sior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2017 at 10:49am
I think that the PRW have a lot to answer for in allowing a situation to arise similar to SW's last season.

I don't know the full story and I'm sure that others on here could put me right. I believe that there should be greater cooperation between Regions and an agreement made that a Region doesn't interfere when a contract renewal is being discussed between a player and his Region. 

By interfering it seems that one Region could be forced to pay more to retain their own player. If no agreement is reached then it's open season. If Region does not want to renew a player's contract then again let the bid begin.

We can do nothing when a bid comes from over the border for a player, but please let's not shoot ourselves in the foot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2017 at 12:40pm
Thanks Kid A.
Any offence taken on board is only a literate/cy consequence. Every attempt at humour is just that. No personal insult intended. Standards lowered for trolls.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nikostratos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2017 at 11:20pm
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:


Has anyone explained precisely why our TV revenue is a pittance compared to the Aviva and Top14?
Has there been any negligence in the negotiations? If so, is anyone personally liable?


Well, The population of England is about 55 million, France about 65.  Scotland 5.3, ROI 4.6, Wales 3, NI 1.8

Under 15 million in total. That ignores Italy, but then Italy almost entirely ignores rugby and the pro 12 there is televised on some obscure pay to view set up, so will contribute little or nothing to the pot.

It's hard to say what the potential viewing figures are, but any broadcaster is going to look at total population, then national average incomes, and then at special circumstances [Scotland not being as interested in rugby, by and large, as the rest  etc.].

I can't see even the best run league based on the Pro 12 nations getting a TV deal on a par with the English or French.  For that to happen, broadcasters [and their advertisers] would need to be convinced that the Pro 12 audience would be more than 3 times as great a proportion of the population base as for England [over 4 X for France], and as affluent. 

So if we say 15% of the English population might watch their league [total guess, for argument's sake], we'd need around 50% of the Celtic nations to be seen as likely viewers and that 50% would have to be seen as about as affluent as their English equivalents.  Never going to happen, obviously, so no question in my mind about this negligence on anyone's part.  And that ignores any arguments about the quality of the 'product', it's just based on rough population stats. 




Edited by minded - 29 March 2017 at 9:18am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 March 2017 at 9:16am
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:




Correct. It's all money owed to the regions. Alledgedly, the WRU insist that they get it first - in order for their turnover to be higher, so that they can meet regulations set by Barclays bank that link to their repayments for the stadium.

It costs around £10m a year to run the Scarlets. Around £5m to £6m of that is for staff wages. That includes wages of stadium managers, groundsman, chefs and shop assistants. The wage bill for our players is somewhere between £4.5m and £5m.



I've checked with an auditor and boosting turnover that way is illegal and almost certainly against the rules of a mortgage. If the money belongs to the regions, it isn't the WRUs and should not pass through their books.

If our wages are 6 million at maximum and our total expenditure is 10 million, what's the remaining 4 million spent on? We have about 17 away games a season, 20 perhaps including pre-season and given that four of those are in Wales (and just 7-8 involve leaving this island), they cannot cost more than a million or so in travel costs. In fact you should manage to add in the utility costs and a lot else to make it up to a million. This isnt a comment about the Scarlets because it applies to other sports teams as well. We spend flip-all on promotion for instance. 


Edited by John - 29 March 2017 at 9:17am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 March 2017 at 9:16am
Originally posted by Nikostratos Nikostratos wrote:



I can't see even the best run league based on the Pro 12 nations getting a TV deal on a par with the English or French.  For that to happen, broadcasters [and their advertisers] would need to be convinced that the Pro 12 audience would be more than 3 times as great a proportion of the population base as for England [over 4 X for France], and as affluent. 

So if we say 15% of the English population might watch their league [total guess, for argument's sake], we'd need around 50% of the Celtic nations to be seen as likely viewers and that 50% would have to be seen as about as affluent as their English equivalents.  Never going to happen, obviously, so no question in my mind about this negligence on anyone's part.  And that ignores any arguments about the quality of the 'product', it's just based on rough population stats. 


Absolutely. The only way we can be anywhere near the English in terms of tv income is to be in the same competition as them.

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