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What do you think about European unity?

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najbritcol View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote najbritcol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 April 2017 at 9:46am
One thing I will say is that many people who claim to be pan-Europeanists are often quite racist and/or hypocritical.  While proclaiming on the one hand the unity and sameness of everyone from Lapland to Crete, at the same time they denounce some European phenotypes or ethnic groups (usually from the Mediterranean) as looking "less European" than others, usually those from Germanic and possibly Slavic countries.  Then you also get some racists and Nordicists from Mediterranean countries themselves, who claim that they actually look the same as Northern/Central Europeans and that all the darker types in their countries are (tick off as appropriate) Gypsies/Turks/immigrants etc.  In short, a pan-European outlook is most certainly NOT always conducive to a liberal, cosmopolitan or enlightened outlook at all.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 April 2017 at 10:17am
Originally posted by najbritcol najbritcol wrote:

One thing I will say is that many people who claim to be pan-Europeanists are often quite racist and/or hypocritical.  While proclaiming on the one hand the unity and sameness of everyone from Lapland to Crete, at the same time they denounce some European phenotypes or ethnic groups (usually from the Mediterranean) as looking "less European" than others, usually those from Germanic and possibly Slavic countries.  Then you also get some racists and Nordicists from Mediterranean countries themselves, who claim that they actually look the same as Northern/Central Europeans and that all the darker types in their countries are (tick off as appropriate) Gypsies/Turks/immigrants etc.  In short, a pan-European outlook is most certainly NOT always conducive to a liberal, cosmopolitan or enlightened outlook at all.  

They're just racists but it does get at something: if you end up defining commonality with a group of people, you often end up defining who is included and excluded, which can have dangerous consequences, particularly when some people place a lot of focus on race and ethnicity. For example, do people view themselves as "more" British or Welsh than others? Say recent immigrants or their decedents? I'm first generation Welsh - does that mean I am less Welsh than a family who have lived on the same street for 500 years?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote najbritcol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 April 2017 at 10:29am
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by najbritcol najbritcol wrote:

One thing I will say is that many people who claim to be pan-Europeanists are often quite racist and/or hypocritical.  While proclaiming on the one hand the unity and sameness of everyone from Lapland to Crete, at the same time they denounce some European phenotypes or ethnic groups (usually from the Mediterranean) as looking "less European" than others, usually those from Germanic and possibly Slavic countries.  Then you also get some racists and Nordicists from Mediterranean countries themselves, who claim that they actually look the same as Northern/Central Europeans and that all the darker types in their countries are (tick off as appropriate) Gypsies/Turks/immigrants etc.  In short, a pan-European outlook is most certainly NOT always conducive to a liberal, cosmopolitan or enlightened outlook at all.  

They're just racists but it does get at something: if you end up defining commonality with a group of people, you often end up defining who is included and excluded, which can have dangerous consequences, particularly when some people place a lot of focus on race and ethnicity. For example, do people view themselves as "more" British or Welsh than others? Say recent immigrants or their decedents? I'm first generation Welsh - does that mean I am less Welsh than a family who have lived on the same street for 500 years?

Surely a distinction here has to be made between civic and ethnic identity - you are less Welsh than the family who have been in the same street for 500 years in an ethnic sense, but NOT in a civic sense.  Anyway, what I was referring to earlier was not even attitudes towards recent immigrants and their descendants, but rather attitudes towards particular European phenotypes or ethnic groups themselves.  It is not that rare to hear Spaniards and Italians denounce very dark types among them like Nicolas Almagro or Fabio Quagliarella as being "not real Spaniards/Italians", even though there is zero evidence that either of them has any Gypsy or foreign ancestry, whereas those same people love to emphasise how many Spaniards and Italians look like Xabi Alonso or Massimo Ambrosini.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote TomTom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 April 2017 at 10:59am
Interesting comments made here...I voted to stay in Europe and i would again . Ignoring the racist lies spread by the leavers , the biggest and best thing from the European union has been the general stability in western europe, something that should not be ignored..Today i feel we are heading for another list of wars, which we know will only benefit the governing classes who benefit from it ...A lot has been said regarding people wanting to regain control over their lives from europe , well all i can see is that you have replaced one tyrant for another...the main difference between europe and west minster is that europe diverted uk payments back to the poorest areas , something that will not happen with a tory controlled majority. When you look at reports stating that wales is as poor as some eastern european counties , just take a moment and think , that we are in this state after 100's of years of west minster control ...and wales has just given them total control back ....Turkeys voting for xmas comes to mind.
If there was an example of stockholm syndrome..wales would win it ...
I fear for our future , yes we all stand and become proud for 80 minutes in every rugby international , but in general the majority of wales arnt welsh any more , we are 2nd class english , who are quite happy to go to war under another countries flag , and live off scraps like a sheepdog in a farmers kitchen.
It hasnt happened in scotland and northern ireland , but wales and the welsh in general are to frightened to stand up and be independant in deed and thought ....It may be poor education or a social phobia , but we are tied firmly to our english parents and nothing is going to get us to leave go .
At least with europe we could have grown up and been an equal partner in a union of countries ,but we chose not to ....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote najbritcol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 April 2017 at 11:11am
I agree that the European Union has been a force for peace, stability and democracy in the continent, and at least in order to join you have to fulfill certain criteria regarding democratic governance and human rights, which is not true of the UN for example.  The EU played an instrumental part in ending Fascism in Southern Europe and Communism in Eastern Europe, and assisting those countries in becoming NW Euro-style democracies (to varying degrees of success).  

@TomTom: Northern Ireland (or more specifically, the Protestants) are at least equally wedded to Westminster control as are Wales - the Unionists are more obsessed about being British than the English are, and look how often Stormont has had to be suspended for literally being unworkable.  Devolution has insulated Wales from some of the worst effects of Tory policy, especially regarding the slow-motion privatisation of the NHS and the loss of some maintenance grants.  As for Scotland, granted support for independence there is much more widespread than in either Wales or NI, but still a lot of their 'wealth' will be lost once the North Sea oil runs out, and however much Nicola Sturgeon may rabble rouse, there is no real evidence to suggest that support for independence is any greater now than three years ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote najbritcol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 April 2017 at 11:14am
Also, it is not true that ALL of Wales is as poor as parts of Eastern Europe: I think you're thinking of a report which showed that specifically Anglesey is as poor as Slovenia.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 April 2017 at 11:55pm
Originally posted by najbritcol najbritcol wrote:

One thing I will say is that many people who claim to be pan-Europeanists are often quite racist and/or hypocritical.  While proclaiming on the one hand the unity and sameness of everyone from Lapland to Crete, at the same time they denounce some European phenotypes or ethnic groups (usually from the Mediterranean) as looking "less European" than others, usually those from Germanic and possibly Slavic countries.  Then you also get some racists and Nordicists from Mediterranean countries themselves, who claim that they actually look the same as Northern/Central Europeans and that all the darker types in their countries are (tick off as appropriate) Gypsies/Turks/immigrants etc.  In short, a pan-European outlook is most certainly NOT always conducive to a liberal, cosmopolitan or enlightened outlook at all.  

Its a closed shop, a cartel of sorts that stops poorer african nations from traidng with us? It even prevents us recruiting the medical the numbers staff we require from asia and africa? Its a walking contraction
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2017 at 12:01am
Originally posted by TomTom TomTom wrote:

Interesting comments made here...I voted to stay in Europe and i would again . Ignoring the racist lies spread by the leavers , the biggest and best thing from the European union has been the general stability in western europe, something that should not be ignored..Today i feel we are heading for another list of wars, which we know will only benefit the governing classes who benefit from it ...A lot has been said regarding people wanting to regain control over their lives from europe , well all i can see is that you have replaced one tyrant for another...the main difference between europe and west minster is that europe diverted uk payments back to the poorest areas , something that will not happen with a tory controlled majority. When you look at reports stating that wales is as poor as some eastern european counties , just take a moment and think , that we are in this state after 100's of years of west minster control ...and wales has just given them total control back ....Turkeys voting for xmas comes to mind.
If there was an example of stockholm syndrome..wales would win it ...
I fear for our future , yes we all stand and become proud for 80 minutes in every rugby international , but in general the majority of wales arnt welsh any more , we are 2nd class english , who are quite happy to go to war under another countries flag , and live off scraps like a sheepdog in a farmers kitchen.
It hasnt happened in scotland and northern ireland , but wales and the welsh in general are to frightened to stand up and be independant in deed and thought ....It may be poor education or a social phobia , but we are tied firmly to our english parents and nothing is going to get us to leave go .
At least with europe we could have grown up and been an equal partner in a union of countries ,but we chose not to ....



The main difference is we have a democracy which means if you dont like those in westminster who makes our laws, then you vote them out. You cant do that with the EU. Firstly they make laws and a constitution of tens of thousands of laws, for nearly 30 totally diverse nations , over 550 million people and a powerful anti - democratic commission which controls it, which cant be voted out
I do agree that the drive for peace for the european nations was and is a great thing which must always continue. The fact some money is channelled to the poorer nations has been a major factor is stabilising these areas too. Sadly with no checks and balances the EU has grown totally out of control and way beyond its remit. Creating a long line of bankrupt nations, hand picked governments, mass unemployment etc


Edited by roy munster - 28 April 2017 at 2:48am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2017 at 8:12am
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by TomTom TomTom wrote:

Interesting comments made here...I voted to stay in Europe and i would again . Ignoring the racist lies spread by the leavers , the biggest and best thing from the European union has been the general stability in western europe, something that should not be ignored..Today i feel we are heading for another list of wars, which we know will only benefit the governing classes who benefit from it ...A lot has been said regarding people wanting to regain control over their lives from europe , well all i can see is that you have replaced one tyrant for another...the main difference between europe and west minster is that europe diverted uk payments back to the poorest areas , something that will not happen with a tory controlled majority. When you look at reports stating that wales is as poor as some eastern european counties , just take a moment and think , that we are in this state after 100's of years of west minster control ...and wales has just given them total control back ....Turkeys voting for xmas comes to mind.
If there was an example of stockholm syndrome..wales would win it ...
I fear for our future , yes we all stand and become proud for 80 minutes in every rugby international , but in general the majority of wales arnt welsh any more , we are 2nd class english , who are quite happy to go to war under another countries flag , and live off scraps like a sheepdog in a farmers kitchen.
It hasnt happened in scotland and northern ireland , but wales and the welsh in general are to frightened to stand up and be independant in deed and thought ....It may be poor education or a social phobia , but we are tied firmly to our english parents and nothing is going to get us to leave go .
At least with europe we could have grown up and been an equal partner in a union of countries ,but we chose not to ....



The main difference is we have a democracy which means if you dont like those in westminster who makes our laws, then you vote them out. You cant do that with the EU. Firstly they make laws and a constitution of tens of thousands of laws, for nearly 30 totally diverse nations , over 550 million people and a powerful anti - democratic commission which controls it, which cant be voted out
I do agree that the drive for peace for the european nations was and is a great thing which must always continue. The fact some money is channelled to the poorer nations has been a major factor is stabilising these areas too. Sadly with no checks and balances the EU has grown totally out of control and way beyond its remit. Creating a long line of bankrupt nations, hand picked governments, mass unemployment etc

I think it a little simplistic to credit the EU with a war free Europe. Who is to say that a war would have occurred without the EU? Any organisation that is capable of gross misspending of public money on the scale of the EU without any checks/counterbalances is an accident waiting to happen. The priceless decision to have two EU bases - one in Brussels & one in Strasbourg is a shining example of how rotten the edifice is - run by corrupt, unelected, bloated officials who have lived off European taxpayers for decades. The panic has set in of course since the Brexit vote & unrest in other countries as the free meal ticket comes under threat. My only regret - 20 years too late. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2017 at 10:45am
Merkel demanding £50 billion off us yesterday before she or the EU will even discuss brexit? She also insists we wont have a trade deal... Why does she think she is European leader? First she demanded we enact article 50, which we did, now its a massive cash grab...And the liberals under tim ferret seem to be supporting her case? In the world according to nick clegg every member who leaves a club has to foot a bill of £50 billion....Ahh what a patriot! He then pulls his most smug self satisfied look to underscore how the whole world should surely be aware of this fact? He seems to think anyone who fights for whats best in british national interest is a xenophobic little englander. 

Edited by roy munster - 28 April 2017 at 10:57am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2017 at 12:47pm
Leaving the EU is a big mistake for the UK and grave mistake for Wales.

1. Proportionately, Wales is more reliant on the EU single market for exports than any other UK region

2. Wales benefits from around £600m in extra public spending through EU funds. Whatever the argument about whose money this is, we were getting it and we are net financial beneficiaries of the EU. Let's hope Westminster Conservatives are equally benevolent.

3. Wales has very little EU immigration. In fact, our economy would be stronger if we had more.

4. Many of our anchor companies have integrated European operations and supply chains. The Welsh bases will now be disadvantaged in terms of future investment.

Left wing people voting because they see the EU as a symbol of unfettered capitalism baffles me. The EU is protectionist to a degree. Let's see how our farmers fare, for example, (the EU limits quotes of lamb from outside the EU) when the UK Government is rattling together Free Trade Agreements to save face. The British economy is about to become more deregulated, "global" and dog eat dog. Very difficult to see how this is going to suit our circumstances.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ffidel Bennett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2017 at 2:37pm
The EU does its best to promote unfettered capitalism. It will not allow the nationalisation of energy, steel, railways etc etc and what we get back in grants for various projects, that they have to approve,  are just crumbs compared to what we contribute. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2017 at 2:57pm
The UK is never going to renationalise industries anyway. It was the UK government that stopped the EU limiting Chinese steel dumping!

The UK is a net contributor to the EU budget, Wales certainly isn't. This has been evidenced. We are net beneficiaries financially.

The EU commission doesn't approve EU funded projects in Wales, that's done by the Welsh Government.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ffidel Bennett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2017 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by Mike Mike wrote:

The UK is never going to renationalise industries anyway. It was the UK government that stopped the EU limiting Chinese steel dumping!

The UK is a net contributor to the EU budget, Wales certainly isn't. This has been evidenced. We are net beneficiaries financially.

The EU commission doesn't approve EU funded projects in Wales, that's done by the Welsh Government.
 
1. It's just your opinion that we won't renationalise industries and that we'll forever prefer to be ripped off by capitalists whose only aim is to increase their profits.
 
2. Might be a cause for concern if we were anywhere near independence, but then again we would be better placed to guide our own economy.
 
3. So you are saying that the EU just hands over the cash and we can do whatever we like with it. Hardly seems worth having a EU commission unless it's only there to provide jobs for the boys.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 April 2017 at 3:56pm
1. If you think leaving the EU is going to pave the way for renationalised industry in the U.K/Wales, fair enough.

2. It's a cause for concern now because we are at the mercy of the UK Conservative Government whether this funding still comes into Wales.

3. I'm saying that the Welsh Government decides on how to invest EU funding in Wales.

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