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Brexit: the results

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 January 2021 at 8:25am
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Today's new story on the Brexit effect concerns the effect on expatriates and 'swallows'. 

In the past, with free movement within the EU, it was easy for Brits to move to Spain (say) in retirement, to enjoy cheaper property prices and warmer weather. The 'swallows' would not live there all year, but go to a property for the winter, to enjoy the warmth and save on heating bills. All of this is now seriously compromised under Brexit.

I should point out that, although these people aren't poor, most are by no stretch 'rich' either - many have just been careful with what funds they have.

This is the report I'd like you to consider:


Some quotes: 

Travel to Spain is more complicated now that the new EU-UK trade agreement has come into force. Since 1 January, the UK has been considered as a "third country" to the EU - outside the club. Any newcomers will have to follow a new system.

For any UK citizens arriving now, here are some of the differences.

For tourists, including people who have second homes in the country but haven't taken residency, you can no longer come and go as you please. You can spend up to three months out of every six here.

To be able to live in Spain now, you will need to show proof that you're earning, either through having a contract with a Spanish company, or by proving that you have at least £2,000 (€2,223; $2,705) a month coming into your account.

For a family, it will be much more. You will need to show that you have an extra £500 a month for each member of the family. For example, a family of four will need to prove they earn a yearly salary of at least £42,000.

British driving licences will also need to be changed to Spanish ones.

The last few weeks have seen a frenetic period of adjustment, and change, with people leaving Spain for good, and others replacing them before the rules for residency changed.

"Our removal companies have never been busier. Every removal company across this coast has told our team they've never seen a situation like this," says Michel Euesden from Rochdale. She runs the Euro Weekly newspaper in Fuengirola, a paper that provides news for Brits living here.

"It's the first time in 25 years since we started the paper here that we've seen removal companies fully booked going out and coming back in.

"They are taking the elderly and people who haven't had jobs for a while, because of the Covid situation, back to the UK, and then they're bringing back younger generations with disposable income, and often with an online marketing presence, out here. So the dynamics have completely changed."...


Meanwhile, Eric Anderson is stuck in the UK. The 71-year-old former shipyard worker from Newcastle is one of thousands of so called "swallows" - people with second homes in Spain who spend winter in the sun and return to Britain in the summer.

Spanish Covid rules preventing non-essential travel mean that Eric can't fly out at the moment. When he can, his time will be limited under the new post-Brexit system.

"I feel badly let down. We paid a mortgage for 20 years to have a holiday home and a retirement bolt-hole for the winter. We're limited to just 90 days now, and that's not just for Spain, but anywhere we go in Europe on holiday. Say we cross from Newcastle to the Netherlands, that's counted.

"So you're already being restricted by time to come back into the UK. There's a lot of average working guys that have done exactly what I've done and it's just not going to be possible now. I don't think anyone expected the rug to be pulled from under them so quickly."

Tracy Turnero Sheehan has made her home in the hillside town of Marchena, famous for Flamenco music and olive growing.

She left Hereford 16 years ago, and is now a Spanish resident, running an English language school by Marchena's town square. She tells me over a socially distanced coffee that her life has become much more complicated as a consequence of the new rules.

"My husband Enrique is Spanish, my son Santiago is Spanish and British. If we ever wanted to move back to the UK as a family, say in five years, then I could move back, I imagine Santi could get a British passport.

"But Enrique would need to fit in with the minimum income or the points-based system. Which makes it almost impossible to live in the UK again. Honestly, I feel kind of forgotten about."

There is help for those considered more vulnerable who are seeking residency.

Three charities - Age in Spain, Babelia and the International Organisation for Migration - are offering legal help, or assistance in arranging appointments, for people struggling with the Spanish language, those in remote areas, and people with disabilities.


In total, there are now more than 360,000 British residents registered in Spain, according to official Spanish figures. Back in the offices of Euro Weekly, Michel Euesden predicts there will be a dramatic change to the population dynamic.

"We have traditionally been a community here of expats who are on average 50-plus. Last year it changed, and the average age was 45. If you come over in 12 months, it'll be more like an average age of 35.

"If you're 70 or 80 years old and you don't understand this new system, the new paperwork, the driving licences needing to be switched over, say for example they get ill - what are they going to do? I think a lot of people will go back to the country where they speak the language. You no longer have the best of both worlds, and people can't rely on speaking only English to get by.

"They will be replaced by a younger set of people who can afford to be here."

The stormy weather has finally passed. So too the era of easy travel to Spain. Estate agents tell me that British people used to be the biggest buyers of property on this coast. Not any more.

The Brexit effect has already begun to change the population here, and reshape the future plans of many Brits who want to live abroad.




So - it seems clear that older people will return to the UK, putting extra stress on the NHS and Social Services - and younger taxpayers are replacing them. It's too soon to say what the numbers will be like, but the trend is hardly a positive one for anyone -IMO. (That bit is an OPINION, not a FACT. Time will tell.)


So you expect me to feel sorry for someone who can now only spend 3 months in every 6 abroad - here is a fact you seem to crave - I don't. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 January 2021 at 8:39am
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

I see that 'supporters of Brexit' have so far been unable to post any good news stories relating to the event.

Not even the £350 million a week for the NHS? No?

So, in the absence of any good news from Brexiters, I'll help them out with one or two: here's the first - 


Boris Johnson's dad has applied for French citizenship. The fewer Johnsons in the UK, the better - aas far as I'm concerned.

It will be even better news when Boris follows suit.
that's because a lot of leave supporters found from farage that it was a lie,it was the only reason i voted leave and looking at the nhs it was a damn good reason so it's a bit churlish to bring that up as you and i know that it is not relevant,now.

You make an excellent point Nigel. I defy anyone, from any walk of life whether PHD's or not, to try to give a balanced assessment of the effects of Brexit on the UK economy over the next 5-10 years. The covid pandemic has completely overtaken events and made any comparisons seem pretty frivolous. Economies around the World will be feeling the negative effects for decades.


Earlier, you wrote something sensible about a batsman "looking in the book" to see the umpire's decision.

That is what I am doing now - looking in the 'Brexit book' to see the results - no more, no less.

I am still waiting for any Brexiters to post on here a single benefit which they can point to since 1 January 2021.

You voted for it - you now have to own it.

It's true that the COVID disaster will muddy the waters, but I shall try to stick to things which have only happened because of Brexit - such as the vastly increased amount of paperwork for food exporters - and not just fishermen, but meat exporters too:


Some quotes from this BBC report (BTW - the BBC is run by Conservatives these days):

UK meat exporters have claimed post-Brexit customs systems are "not fit for purpose", with goods delayed for hours, sometimes days, at the border.

The British Meat Processor Association said even experienced exporters were struggling with the system.

It said meat exports to the EU were 25% of normal levels for this time of year.

One large French meat importer told the BBC that he and his competitors were starting to look at alternative suppliers in Spain and Ireland.


Nick Allen, chief executive of the British Meat Processor Association, said: "Fundamentally, this is not a system that was designed for a 24/7, just-in-time supply chain.

"The export health certification process was designed for moving containers of frozen meat around the world where you have a bit of leeway on time.

"No matter how much better we get at filling in the forms, it's really not fit for purpose. This is going back to the dark ages in terms of a process really, in this digital age."

He added "It's going to be a problem for quite a time until we move forward and hopefully get a better digital system in place and can make it work a bit better, but until then, we've got to put up with all this paperwork and lorries arriving in Ireland with box files full of paper."

Rizvan Khalid, a lamb exporter based in Shropshire, cannot afford to get the paperwork wrong.

His company, Euro Quality Lambs, exports 70% of its meat to the EU, including France, Germany, Belgium and Portugal. He says what was once a once well-oiled machine now has a spanner in it.

"What used to take us 15 minutes is now taking us three or four hours on average before we can get the paperwork completed for one particular load," he says.

"It's taking them [on the French side] up to six hours to go through the health certificates, to open up the lorry and check the goods.

"All of that is adding time and costs. It's now an extra day before our product gets into the markets of Paris."


Down at the international freight checkpoint in Ashford, near the entrance to the Eurotunnel, customs consultant Steve Cocks gave a downbeat assessment.

"The temporary border post lorry park is full, roads are being closed off and lorries are being sent back to the Covid testing site to hold them there," he said.

"Last week wasn't much to write home about as it was very quiet, but volumes are building and it's just going to get worse. Exports are grinding to a halt and that will affect imports, but if you are a haulier. you don't want to get a lorry stuck on this side of the Channel."

After decades of friction-free trade, there are bound to be teething problems. Indeed, the government predicted that there would be "significant additional disruption" as traders, officials and customers became accustomed to new procedures.

However, some things cannot "bed in" and will become permanent features. HMRC estimates the additional cost to UK business of bog-standard customs declarations alone at £7bn.

When buyers and sellers want to trade, they will find a way, but significant additional cost and complexity is here to stay.


As I said at the start - I'm posting FACTS here. People can make up their own minds, but please read the reports. Don't ignore them in a 'three wise monkeys' way, and pretend this stuff isn't happening - because it is.


Well Aber you are excelling yourself I have to say. I don't own Brexit I am part of the 52% who voted for it. Nothing you have posted so far - although they may well be factual - makes me reconsider my decision for one millisecond. Most, if not all your points so far,  have concentrated on additional paperwork requirements. This did not get thrust on UK traders on 01/01/2021. I and all other exporters were told at least 12 months ago to prepare for the new arrangements. Copious amounts of information was available. 

It remains as of today that by far the largest disruption to border crossing came about due to the covid crisis which had absolutely nothing to do with Brexit. You clearly are on a mission and that is your right to post on here. However I can only say from my point of view you are coming across as a very bad loser who has lost touch with the reality of where we in the UK currently stand as a result of the covid pandemic. As for me or any Brexit supporter posting daily evidence of Brexit success I wouldn't hold my breath, certainly from my point of view. I have far more important issues to deal with on a daily basis which include keeping my family safe & funded during this crisis as well as looking out for my elderly neighbours. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 January 2021 at 9:29am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

I see that 'supporters of Brexit' have so far been unable to post any good news stories relating to the event.

Not even the £350 million a week for the NHS? No?

So, in the absence of any good news from Brexiters, I'll help them out with one or two: here's the first - 


Boris Johnson's dad has applied for French citizenship. The fewer Johnsons in the UK, the better - aas far as I'm concerned.

It will be even better news when Boris follows suit.
that's because a lot of leave supporters found from farage that it was a lie,it was the only reason i voted leave and looking at the nhs it was a damn good reason so it's a bit churlish to bring that up as you and i know that it is not relevant,now.

You make an excellent point Nigel. I defy anyone, from any walk of life whether PHD's or not, to try to give a balanced assessment of the effects of Brexit on the UK economy over the next 5-10 years. The covid pandemic has completely overtaken events and made any comparisons seem pretty frivolous. Economies around the World will be feeling the negative effects for decades.


Earlier, you wrote something sensible about a batsman "looking in the book" to see the umpire's decision.

That is what I am doing now - looking in the 'Brexit book' to see the results - no more, no less.

I am still waiting for any Brexiters to post on here a single benefit which they can point to since 1 January 2021.

You voted for it - you now have to own it.

It's true that the COVID disaster will muddy the waters, but I shall try to stick to things which have only happened because of Brexit - such as the vastly increased amount of paperwork for food exporters - and not just fishermen, but meat exporters too:


Some quotes from this BBC report (BTW - the BBC is run by Conservatives these days):

UK meat exporters have claimed post-Brexit customs systems are "not fit for purpose", with goods delayed for hours, sometimes days, at the border.

The British Meat Processor Association said even experienced exporters were struggling with the system.

It said meat exports to the EU were 25% of normal levels for this time of year.

One large French meat importer told the BBC that he and his competitors were starting to look at alternative suppliers in Spain and Ireland.


Nick Allen, chief executive of the British Meat Processor Association, said: "Fundamentally, this is not a system that was designed for a 24/7, just-in-time supply chain.

"The export health certification process was designed for moving containers of frozen meat around the world where you have a bit of leeway on time.

"No matter how much better we get at filling in the forms, it's really not fit for purpose. This is going back to the dark ages in terms of a process really, in this digital age."

He added "It's going to be a problem for quite a time until we move forward and hopefully get a better digital system in place and can make it work a bit better, but until then, we've got to put up with all this paperwork and lorries arriving in Ireland with box files full of paper."

Rizvan Khalid, a lamb exporter based in Shropshire, cannot afford to get the paperwork wrong.

His company, Euro Quality Lambs, exports 70% of its meat to the EU, including France, Germany, Belgium and Portugal. He says what was once a once well-oiled machine now has a spanner in it.

"What used to take us 15 minutes is now taking us three or four hours on average before we can get the paperwork completed for one particular load," he says.

"It's taking them [on the French side] up to six hours to go through the health certificates, to open up the lorry and check the goods.

"All of that is adding time and costs. It's now an extra day before our product gets into the markets of Paris."


Down at the international freight checkpoint in Ashford, near the entrance to the Eurotunnel, customs consultant Steve Cocks gave a downbeat assessment.

"The temporary border post lorry park is full, roads are being closed off and lorries are being sent back to the Covid testing site to hold them there," he said.

"Last week wasn't much to write home about as it was very quiet, but volumes are building and it's just going to get worse. Exports are grinding to a halt and that will affect imports, but if you are a haulier. you don't want to get a lorry stuck on this side of the Channel."

After decades of friction-free trade, there are bound to be teething problems. Indeed, the government predicted that there would be "significant additional disruption" as traders, officials and customers became accustomed to new procedures.

However, some things cannot "bed in" and will become permanent features. HMRC estimates the additional cost to UK business of bog-standard customs declarations alone at £7bn.

When buyers and sellers want to trade, they will find a way, but significant additional cost and complexity is here to stay.


As I said at the start - I'm posting FACTS here. People can make up their own minds, but please read the reports. Don't ignore them in a 'three wise monkeys' way, and pretend this stuff isn't happening - because it is.


Well Aber you are excelling yourself I have to say. I don't own Brexit I am part of the 52% who voted for it. Nothing you have posted so far - although they may well be factual - makes me reconsider my decision for one millisecond. Most, if not all your points so far,  have concentrated on additional paperwork requirements. This did not get thrust on UK traders on 01/01/2021. I and all other exporters were told at least 12 months ago to prepare for the new arrangements. Copious amounts of information was available. 


You say that as if it was a small thing...

Let's just wind back a bit, shall we?

Shellfish exports

On the Menai Strait, James Wilson of Deepdock Ltd has stopped sending live mussels to the Netherlands until he sees how the new trading relationship between the UK and the EU works out in practice.

"We'll just have to see how much the bureaucracy costs and assess the viability of the trade going forward," he said.

The trader said only one document had to be filled in in the past.

"A colleague sent a load out last week and he had to send 41 bits of paper with his load," he said.

Every bag of mussels has to have its own documentation.


Scottish fish and shellfish


I think that I may only have posed a link to this issue before - here is a quote, and a link to the full report:


Scottish fishermen have resorted to sailing to Denmark to land their catch as Brexit red tape continues to delay exports, an industry body has said.

The Scottish Fishermen's Federation, which campaigned to leave the EU, also said the Brexit trade deal was the worst of both worlds for the industry.

Many fishermen "now fear for their future", it said.

The UK government said the deal would "bring immediate gains to our fishermen and women across the whole UK".

Late last year, the Scottish Fishermen's Federation (SFF) said it was "deeply aggrieved" by the Brexit deal.

Fishing firms have also warned of impending bankruptcy as delays continue at ports following the introduction of post-Brexit regulations.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55669168


(Note: these people campaigned FOR Brexit.


Either they were idiots - or they were lied to. Which do you think it is?)


Meat exports


Nick Allen, chief executive of the British Meat Processor Association, said: "Fundamentally, this is not a system that was designed for a 24/7, just-in-time supply chain.

"The export health certification process was designed for moving containers of frozen meat around the world where you have a bit of leeway on time.

"No matter how much better we get at filling in the forms, it's really not fit for purpose. This is going back to the dark ages in terms of a process really, in this digital age."...

After decades of friction-free trade, there are bound to be teething problems. Indeed, the government predicted that there would be "significant additional disruption" as traders, officials and customers became accustomed to new procedures.

However, some things cannot "bed in" and will become permanent features. HMRC estimates the additional cost to UK business of bog-standard customs declarations alone at £7bn.



Now, I don't know about you, but none of this sounds trivial to me... 


Don't forget what I said at the start - I am inviting Brexiters to post good news stories in here. It's not my job to do that.


Please don't bother to make remarks based on nothing at all. Stick to the FACTS, man! That way, it'll be a lot clearer to all of us what the benefits and downsides are. You will see that I post links to all the stories I mention. I don't think you have posted any, yet - but I welcome them.


Boris said it was a 'cake and eat it deal', a day or two after it was signed. It surely can't be that hard to find the good news.

“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 January 2021 at 9:34am
For anyone thinking that all the U.K. expats living in the EU have plenty of dosh and can tu when they want, nothing could further further truth. Many sold up and left for cheaper living and better lifestyle. They’ve no hope of returning as house prices have taxed static in their new location, or dropped, hole U.K. prices continued to rise.

They will have to apply for the right to stay and citizenship of their location. Many feel very reluctant. To do so, however, those are the consequences for them.

Back on topic, are the supply issues in Northern Ireland a temporary blip, or here to stay with the unworkable deal? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 January 2021 at 9:34am
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Small check is that the EU have agreed that having a British driving license will remain valid.

I’ve lots of so called ‘ swallow ‘ friends. It’s a bud crash for most of them. Although what happening in Gibraltar could be an interesting outcome. Let’s be clear, Spain is going to take a heck of a hit here too.

Very likely - and I'm sure the Spanish aren't happy about it.

Do you have a link to the driving license story? That will be a relief, to many, assuming it's confirmed - though it can't count as 'good news', as it'll simply retain the status quo.

(This comes a bit late for us, as we forked out for International Driving Permits about a year ago - but never got to use them, because of COVID.

Ah, well.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 January 2021 at 9:41am
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

For anyone thinking that all the U.K. expats living in the EU have plenty of dosh and can tu when they want, nothing could further further truth. Many sold up and left for cheaper living and better lifestyle. They’ve no hope of returning as house prices have taxed static in their new location, or dropped, hole U.K. prices continued to rise.

They will have to apply for the right to stay and citizenship of their location. Many feel very reluctant. To do so, however, those are the consequences for them.

Back on topic, are the supply issues in Northern Ireland a temporary blip, or here to stay with the unworkable deal? 

A very good question, and of some interest to me - I spent 3 years there. Certainly not my area of expertise, so I turned to that well-known Marxist hotbed, the Financial Times, to see what they think.

This is their report with some quotes:


Please use the sharing tools found via the share button at the top or side of articles. Copying articles to share with others is a breach of FT.com T&Cs and Copyright Policy. Email licensing@ft.com to buy additional rights. Subscribers may share up to 10 or 20 articles per month using the gift article service. More information can be found here.
https://www.ft.com/content/8bdb2a68-8124-42d6-a477-d4ddf03000d8

The UK’s largest supermarkets have warned the government of “significant disruption to food supplies” to Northern Ireland because of “unworkable” post-Brexit border arrangements. Many supermarkets in the region have been hit by rows of empty shelves because of the new border regime. But in a letter to Cabinet Office secretary Michael Gove, chief executives of companies including Sainsbury, Marks and Spencer and Tesco UK warned that shortages would worsen when a Brexit grace period, which has exempted retailers from some arduous red tape, ends on March 31.  

The supermarkets urged the government to take “a number of steps to work with us to ensure the long-term sustainability of the Northern Irish grocery market”. The retailers also called on the government to begin an “open discussion” with the EU to explain why implementing the Irish protocol was “unworkable” in the current timeframe, raising the prospect of difficult negotiations with Brussels just weeks after the deal was agreed. We cannot stress enough that we need time to find and implement that solution ... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 January 2021 at 9:42am
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

I see that 'supporters of Brexit' have so far been unable to post any good news stories relating to the event.

Not even the £350 million a week for the NHS? No?

So, in the absence of any good news from Brexiters, I'll help them out with one or two: here's the first - 


Boris Johnson's dad has applied for French citizenship. The fewer Johnsons in the UK, the better - aas far as I'm concerned.

It will be even better news when Boris follows suit.
that's because a lot of leave supporters found from farage that it was a lie,it was the only reason i voted leave and looking at the nhs it was a damn good reason so it's a bit churlish to bring that up as you and i know that it is not relevant,now.

You make an excellent point Nigel. I defy anyone, from any walk of life whether PHD's or not, to try to give a balanced assessment of the effects of Brexit on the UK economy over the next 5-10 years. The covid pandemic has completely overtaken events and made any comparisons seem pretty frivolous. Economies around the World will be feeling the negative effects for decades.


Earlier, you wrote something sensible about a batsman "looking in the book" to see the umpire's decision.

That is what I am doing now - looking in the 'Brexit book' to see the results - no more, no less.

I am still waiting for any Brexiters to post on here a single benefit which they can point to since 1 January 2021.

You voted for it - you now have to own it.

It's true that the COVID disaster will muddy the waters, but I shall try to stick to things which have only happened because of Brexit - such as the vastly increased amount of paperwork for food exporters - and not just fishermen, but meat exporters too:


Some quotes from this BBC report (BTW - the BBC is run by Conservatives these days):

UK meat exporters have claimed post-Brexit customs systems are "not fit for purpose", with goods delayed for hours, sometimes days, at the border.

The British Meat Processor Association said even experienced exporters were struggling with the system.

It said meat exports to the EU were 25% of normal levels for this time of year.

One large French meat importer told the BBC that he and his competitors were starting to look at alternative suppliers in Spain and Ireland.


Nick Allen, chief executive of the British Meat Processor Association, said: "Fundamentally, this is not a system that was designed for a 24/7, just-in-time supply chain.

"The export health certification process was designed for moving containers of frozen meat around the world where you have a bit of leeway on time.

"No matter how much better we get at filling in the forms, it's really not fit for purpose. This is going back to the dark ages in terms of a process really, in this digital age."

He added "It's going to be a problem for quite a time until we move forward and hopefully get a better digital system in place and can make it work a bit better, but until then, we've got to put up with all this paperwork and lorries arriving in Ireland with box files full of paper."

Rizvan Khalid, a lamb exporter based in Shropshire, cannot afford to get the paperwork wrong.

His company, Euro Quality Lambs, exports 70% of its meat to the EU, including France, Germany, Belgium and Portugal. He says what was once a once well-oiled machine now has a spanner in it.

"What used to take us 15 minutes is now taking us three or four hours on average before we can get the paperwork completed for one particular load," he says.

"It's taking them [on the French side] up to six hours to go through the health certificates, to open up the lorry and check the goods.

"All of that is adding time and costs. It's now an extra day before our product gets into the markets of Paris."


Down at the international freight checkpoint in Ashford, near the entrance to the Eurotunnel, customs consultant Steve Cocks gave a downbeat assessment.

"The temporary border post lorry park is full, roads are being closed off and lorries are being sent back to the Covid testing site to hold them there," he said.

"Last week wasn't much to write home about as it was very quiet, but volumes are building and it's just going to get worse. Exports are grinding to a halt and that will affect imports, but if you are a haulier. you don't want to get a lorry stuck on this side of the Channel."

After decades of friction-free trade, there are bound to be teething problems. Indeed, the government predicted that there would be "significant additional disruption" as traders, officials and customers became accustomed to new procedures.

However, some things cannot "bed in" and will become permanent features. HMRC estimates the additional cost to UK business of bog-standard customs declarations alone at £7bn.

When buyers and sellers want to trade, they will find a way, but significant additional cost and complexity is here to stay.


As I said at the start - I'm posting FACTS here. People can make up their own minds, but please read the reports. Don't ignore them in a 'three wise monkeys' way, and pretend this stuff isn't happening - because it is.


Well Aber you are excelling yourself I have to say. I don't own Brexit I am part of the 52% who voted for it. Nothing you have posted so far - although they may well be factual - makes me reconsider my decision for one millisecond. Most, if not all your points so far,  have concentrated on additional paperwork requirements. This did not get thrust on UK traders on 01/01/2021. I and all other exporters were told at least 12 months ago to prepare for the new arrangements. Copious amounts of information was available. 


You say that as if it was a small thing...

Let's just wind back a bit, shall we?

Shellfish exports

On the Menai Strait, James Wilson of Deepdock Ltd has stopped sending live mussels to the Netherlands until he sees how the new trading relationship between the UK and the EU works out in practice.

"We'll just have to see how much the bureaucracy costs and assess the viability of the trade going forward," he said.

The trader said only one document had to be filled in in the past.

"A colleague sent a load out last week and he had to send 41 bits of paper with his load," he said.

Every bag of mussels has to have its own documentation.


Scottish fish and shellfish


I think that I may only have posed a link to this issue before - here is a quote, and a link to the full report:


Scottish fishermen have resorted to sailing to Denmark to land their catch as Brexit red tape continues to delay exports, an industry body has said.

The Scottish Fishermen's Federation, which campaigned to leave the EU, also said the Brexit trade deal was the worst of both worlds for the industry.

Many fishermen "now fear for their future", it said.

The UK government said the deal would "bring immediate gains to our fishermen and women across the whole UK".

Late last year, the Scottish Fishermen's Federation (SFF) said it was "deeply aggrieved" by the Brexit deal.

Fishing firms have also warned of impending bankruptcy as delays continue at ports following the introduction of post-Brexit regulations.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55669168


(Note: these people campaigned FOR Brexit.


Either they were idiots - or they were lied to. Which do you think it is?)


Meat exports


Nick Allen, chief executive of the British Meat Processor Association, said: "Fundamentally, this is not a system that was designed for a 24/7, just-in-time supply chain.

"The export health certification process was designed for moving containers of frozen meat around the world where you have a bit of leeway on time.

"No matter how much better we get at filling in the forms, it's really not fit for purpose. This is going back to the dark ages in terms of a process really, in this digital age."...

After decades of friction-free trade, there are bound to be teething problems. Indeed, the government predicted that there would be "significant additional disruption" as traders, officials and customers became accustomed to new procedures.

However, some things cannot "bed in" and will become permanent features. HMRC estimates the additional cost to UK business of bog-standard customs declarations alone at £7bn.



Now, I don't know about you, but none of this sounds trivial to me... 


Don't forget what I said at the start - I am inviting Brexiters to post good news stories in here. It's not my job to do that.


Please don't bother to make remarks based on nothing at all. Stick to the FACTS, man! That way, it'll be a lot clearer to all of us what the benefits and downsides are. You will see that I post links to all the stories I mention. I don't think you have posted any, yet - but I welcome them.


Boris said it was a 'cake and eat it deal', a day or two after it was signed. It surely can't be that hard to find the good news.


Aber please read my posts - I am not going to resort to your tactics which as I said seem quite desperate frankly. You keep repeating the same story - paperwork which the mussels exporter would have known long ago. It just didn't happen to him on 01/01/2021. In all honesty my small business now has 10's of extra pieces of paperwork needed but it is just a few bits of paperwork. If your business depends on filling it out then surely you just do it. I don't like filling in VAT returns every quarter but I do because I have to. 

You keep asking for good new stories here is one - to date we have saved around £43 million pounds in net contributions to the EU ( this fact is based on £10 billion per annum net savings). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 January 2021 at 9:43am
Sorry - those damn marxists don't make it easy to quote the odd paragraph from their pinko sheet!
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 January 2021 at 9:47am



Aber please read my posts - I am not going to resort to your tactics which as I said seem quite desperate frankly. You keep repeating the same story - paperwork which the mussels exporter would have known long ago. It just didn't happen to him on 01/01/2021. In all honesty my small business now has 10's of extra pieces of paperwork needed but it is just a few bits of paperwork. If your business depends on filling it out then surely you just do it. I don't like filling in VAT returns every quarter but I do because I have to. 

You keep asking for good new stories here is one - to date we have saved around £43 million pounds in net contributions to the EU ( this fact is based on £10 billion per annum net savings). 
[/QUOTE]

I do read your posts - you don't seem to read mine, which are factual.

By all means post a link to this £10 billion net saving. Most of it will be wiped out at once by the £7 billion which will have to be spent on 'bog-standard customs declarations', but never mind.


Edited by aber-fan - 16 January 2021 at 9:49am
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 January 2021 at 9:53am
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

If you get your news from the BBC or the Guardian you must not expect anything positive about Brexit, Trump, Russia, China, Iran, Syria, Cuba, Venezuela whereas anyone that has anything negative to say about them will be welcomed and allowed evidence free speculation, which is then quietly forgotten if proved baseless (eg Trump's Russiagate nonsense which was taken seriously enough by his accusers and investigated in the Mueller Report which found zero evidence). BBC World service probably mentioned the exoneration quietly at 3 am but compared to the insinuations beforehand it was virtually inaudible.

I disagree with practically everything you say in this post, and would like to see you stand up your claims, but I don't want to get sidelined by other issues, as I don't have the time or the inclination.Please open a NEW THREAD if you want to discuss those issues in detail.

Just one correction which I feel HAS to be made here - concerning the BBC - since if you are going to make the claim that BBC comments on Brexit can't be trusted, or that the corporation is part of some sort of left-wing plot - I really can't allow that to stand. So, once again, I'll stick to the FACTS. If you find ANYTHING AT ALL in this report which is factually incorrect, please let me know and I'll edit it and post a correction.

Can't say fairer than that, can I?

You write: If you get your news from the BBC... you must not expect anything positive about Brexit...

I really don't know who you THINK runs the BBC nowadays, but in fact it has been in Tory hands for years - not surprising, given that they have been in power since 2010.

For example - the new Chair of the BBC, Richard Sharp, has donated £400,000 to the Tories in recent years. He has worked for the bank Goldman Sachs in a senior role for 23 years. He was Rishi Sunak's boss. He worked with Boris Johnson when he was Mayor of London. 

So what about the director general, then? He must be a dyed-in-the-wool leftie, no? Well... no. He - Tim Davie - is also a Conservative.

All of this information is out there, and Google will find it for you in an instant.

Some quotes on Sharp and Davie, from the Byline Times (you will find exactly the same FACTS reported on very many other news websites):



The newly-appointed Chairman of the BBC has donated more than £400,000 to the Conservative Party since 2001, Electoral Commission records show.

Earlier today, it was announced that former Goldman Sachs banker Richard Sharp is set to be appointed as the chairman of the BBC’s board of directors.

According to the BBC’s Media Editor Amol Rajan, Sharp’s new role “will see him lead negotiations with the Government over the future of the licence fee”.

Sharp spent 23 years working for New York banking giant Goldman Sachs and reportedly oversaw the work of Rishi Sunak, during the now Chancellor’s early career in the finance industry. Latterly, Sharp was on the Bank of England’s Financial Policy Committee for six years until 2019.

It also seems that the new BBC Chairman has made a minor career in the field of Conservative Party fundraising – donating an estimated £416,189 to the party and its politicians since the turn of the century.

It appears as though Sharp’s latest donation to the Conservatives was in 2019, when he gave £2,500 to the Hereford and South Herefordshire branch of the party. From 2008 to 2010, he ploughed a whopping £211,590 into central party coffers.

Sharp has also since 2002 been a director at the Centre for Policy Studies – a right-wing think tank that has published studies calling for the abolition of the licence fee and accusing the BBC of having a left-wing bias.

His appointment follows that of Tim Davie, who was announced as the corporation’s new Director General in September. Davie stood as a councillor for the Conservative Party in 1993 and 1994, and was deputy chairman of the Hammersmith and Fulham Conservatives in the 1990s.


I am pretty sure my friend Dai has no need of my support here but how on earth does the fact that two senior people at the BBC being Tories prove that Dai's remarks are incorrect. Surely two die hard tories would indeed have a natural political antagonism to China, Russia, Cuba & Venezuela. As for their stance on Brexit I have no way of knowing whether they supported it or not so I fail to see your point again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 January 2021 at 10:01am
You read it here first folks - we're doomed. Its nothing to do with covid by the way its all down to Brexit which those sly tories allowed to happen with absolutely no warning. Never mind about the deaths worldwide approaching 2 million, hospitals in many countries approaching dangerous capacities, new variants providing threats of worse to come lets all really get concerned that a mussel exporter now has to fill in lots of paperwork & Dai Benidorm can only spend 3 months in every 6 sunning himself - what a catastrophe!!!!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 January 2021 at 11:03am
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Small check is that the EU have agreed that having a British driving license will remain valid.

I’ve lots of so called ‘ swallow ‘ friends. It’s a bud crash for most of them. Although what happening in Gibraltar could be an interesting outcome. Let’s be clear, Spain is going to take a heck of a hit here too.


Very likely - and I'm sure the Spanish aren't happy about it.

Do you have a link to the driving license story? That will be a relief, to many, assuming it's confirmed - though it can't count as 'good news', as it'll simply retain the status quo.

(This comes a bit late for us, as we forked out for International Driving Permits about a year ago - but never got to use them, because of COVID.

Ah, well.)



I can't find a link but it was put out by Grant Shapps on his Twitter account on 31 December..

It says ( quote )

'Welcome news for UK Drivers. We've now secured agreements with all 27 EU member countries to recognize UK driving licenses WITHOUT the need for an International Drivers permit. From tomorrow UK drivers can continue to drive in the EU without an IDP ( Covid restriction dependent)'.





Edited by Wil Chips - 16 January 2021 at 11:04am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 January 2021 at 11:08am
I'd say, as someone directly and indirectly impacted by the protracted trade negotiations, the outcome of that being only really concluded just before year end, that planning for the outcome could only really begin in earnest just after the agreement had been hashed out.

The final deal was a hybrid of what all parties expected.

As for people who elected to sell up and live abroad, most are in fact not cuckoos actually. They live in Europe and occasionally visit the UK.
Most are retired are not in full time employment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 January 2021 at 11:39am
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

I'd say, as someone directly and indirectly impacted by the protracted trade negotiations, the outcome of that being only really concluded just before year end, that planning for the outcome could only really begin in earnest just after the agreement had been hashed out.

The final deal was a hybrid of what all parties expected.

As for people who elected to sell up and live abroad, most are in fact not cuckoos actually. They live in Europe and occasionally visit the UK.
Most are retired are not in full time employment.

Well Wil as someone who is directly impacted by the trade negotiation outcome I have known since March 2019 that changes were coming. Since early 2020 I was told to prepare for possible WTO regulations and the paperwork that involved & also to still allow for some additional documentation requirements should a deal be agreed so personally no surprises.

With regards to people who live permanently in Spain I have two sets of friends who are retired and fall into that category. They both knew changes were afoot a couple of years ago. The final deal didn't bring them any surprises. One couple have decided to stay permanently having applied for and been granted Spanish citizenship. The other are going to spend 6 months in Spain & 6 in Britain. The 6 months in Britain costs of renting etc are being 85% met by the rental income of their property in Spain. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dai Guevara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 January 2021 at 12:54pm
Aberfan - why do you think that I believe (from my last post)that the BBC is a left-wing organisation. Far from it. What I was saying was that there are certain topics where the BBC is totally one-sided and being almost 100% negative on Brexit is one of them. Even if it finds some advantage that Brexit bestows and can't avoid including in a broadcast, it will hardly be positive and will usually throw in some negative aspect to lessen the impact on the undecided.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 January 2021 at 4:09pm
Don’t know the South Wales wine business in question. Hope someone on here does.

I imagine there will be plenty of other stories like this.

In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.
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