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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletpimp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2023 at 1:08am
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Agree with you on a great number of matters Lofty but I agree with Peck's closing remarks and I'll explain why.

Which is not to say they’re not deliverable. Underestimating Keir Starmer is a big mistake, made all too often. He’s not where he is, in every respect, by accident. In some of his recent speeches he’s spoken about being weary of how Westminster works. That it’s all talk, and no one actually does anything. He is clearly an executive-minded person; the days of government-by-columnist are, pleasingly, over.

He had made enormous progress, but the next phase is by far the hardest. He still has to talk his way in to 10 Downing Street, via the voters’ affections; and he’s still got a long way to go to get there.


We're a year out from a GE. I can't see the Tories getting in now. Yet a great deal of support for Labour is by default, a case of they're the next taxi off the rank. Peck is making the point here that voters may not have great affection for Labour ... and it's a fair point. Many like you are saying that Labour's right to keep it's powder dry ... but it's not entirely true that they have. For example they went into quite a bit of detail about the future of the UK via Gordon Brown's constitutional review. I was personally massively disappointed by it. In other aspects he's dismissed really important stuff. He was interviewed by Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart for their podcast. They asked him about the way that Johnson abused the "good chaps" model of Parliamentary convention and if constitutional reforms were necessary to prevent this from happening. Starmer's response was basically to say that Labour were the "good chaps" the UK needs and that no reform was really needed. Again, I was hugely disappointed. I get that Labour are in election mode and don't want to give away policy so as to give the Tories a head start on them, but their pronouncements have left me cold. Grud yes, I want the Tories out and right now the only answer to that is for England to return a Labour majority. But this is where I agree with Peck - I've no great affection for Labour. I don't feel happy with the "vote for us, we'll do progressive stuff" approach. I don't find it reassuring. The state Britain is in is absolutely dreadful. "Trust us, we're the good guys" doesn't cut it for me. Right now "we're not the Tories" will be good enough but my goodness, there are seismic fractures running through the UK and folk all over Britain deserve a State that functions. I just wish I felt that there was some substance behind Labour.


Its clearly a case here of idealism versus pragmatism.
To be honest , all the the ideas totallybiasedscarlet has ,at considerable time and length on here,
I am quite interested in.
Concentrating power in Westminster, post  Brexit, without maybe passing all revenue streams to devolved administrations, that have might otherwise gone to Europe, does not stack up. 
 I am for an increased  authority, legislative, and otherwise, in the Senedd, and further down the line a review of how the UK would work as a confederation of states.

That's for then, and this is for now.
Starmer has a fine line to tread. Last election, there was a forum of voters in  Bristol who were questioned of their concerns. The obvious economy and NHS surfaced, as at that time Brexit.
What also  featured , was the clear irritation from ENGLISH voters , that Nicola sturgeon could hold the balance of power and call the shots to a possible Corbyn government
What would not go down well with them was Corbyn , buying her off with cheap political sweeteners regarding referendum etc.
Its almost the same with Brexit, with so many Labour votes voting Leave in red Wall seats.
They wanted to be listened too, and thought they were not, at the last  election.
Personally, I would want the UK to re-negotiate some terms with ,or the  free trade agreement, or the level playing field agreement, currently undermined by Sunak . Further down the line negotiate re-entry in to the customs union, which would solve NI problems.
That's my own opinion, but rightly Starmer has parked a lot of the discussion, which caused so much Angst for so long.

Starmer is no orator , with personality that be described as un charismatic.
I am sure there will be many things that will come from Labour proving forward in terms of detail.
Most certainly the five major points he made today were a in artistic terms "a rough sketch".
As I have said in previous post , he does not need to put in detail now and give Tories free points scoring.
Finally, I will say this Starmer , may not be everyone's cup of tea, even mine, but he MUST get credit from transforming the Labour party ,a party divided by racism and anti Semitism, and a total organisational mess under Jeremy Corbyn.
Capturing the mood of the nation is the next step, and as others have rightly said, its not enough to say "we are the good guys", or "vote for us we re' not Tories.
You have to connect, you have to energise, and most of all give hope.
To do that effectively you also need need to ensure that there are no distractions which blur your core messages.
The Tory lackies just wait for these opportunities  and explode them in the media, so you end up defensively, defending thins you don't want to defend, instead of talking about things you really want to talk about.
This is a really issue bearing in mind the media bias  we are currently facing and have always faced historically.

Starmer, generally speaking is playing it fine, and needs to continue to do much of the same for now.
Labour have have always been "softer" than than the Tories, who's "say anything " mentality has won them election after election.
As I have said earlier, it sometimes pays , not to say a lot.
Pragmatism , over idealism, maybe, but there is so much at stake here now. 
Its not just the the future of NHS, the economy, the clean energy programme, justice and job creation, but it is the lives of so many that are totally intertwined with these issues that is important.
These people face a cataclysmic disaster if Starmer fails
I stood yer on tanner bank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2023 at 7:35am
Originally posted by scarletpimp scarletpimp wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/keir-starmer-five-missions-speech-rishi-sunak-b2288229.html

A very tongue in cheek opinion piece for the most part ... but a very good conclusion I thought.

Very different views from Crace and Toynbee in the Guardian though.
Sorry, a very  poor conclusion. 
Tom Peck , a serious journalist..my arse!
What's he expect Starmer to do, a year away from an election...
do backwards  somersaults? LOL
At this stage,he's doing all he needs to do, and keep it that. 

The way  I view things simply  is this.
We the ordinary ' little people,  who have worked all our lives.
Paid our NI contributions,  been good citizens (mostly),
supported those in need, accepted what the failing NHS is manfully  trying to do with you, without  complaining  tooo much.
And what are faced by...the establishment..headed by the Tory party 
Their friends, including  oligarchs,  ahd other crooks,some so wealthy
they do'nt even know how much they have.We then have the landed gentry, some of whom trundling in to the House of Lords, if they can stay awake.  Some of these people own over three  quarters or the land in the UK.
Who are the defenders of this motley crew..none other than tye Great Grithish Press of course.
The Sun, the vilifier  of the miners and  innocent  Liverpool  football  fans at Hillsborough,  and phone tapping of people's phones including  tye rapidly of Millie Dowler. The Dailer Mail, a publication  so reactionary,  it names Norman Tebitt look like Corbyn.
I need not go on
This bunch of scum, want to maintain  the status quo, and keep the Tories in power, so they continue conning the public, and ruling with such arrogance, that Johnnson can break the law ahd Truss can destroy  our economy,  but there no real  apology! 
Worst of all we have the arrogance of people like Cameron  and Osborne,  who at the time of austerity,  expect the poorest and most disadvantaged,  proportionally,  to carry the burden. There were benefit  cuts, of course,  but no real talk of a mansion tax for the rich, who have more more money  than most of us , in ten future  lifetimes never mind this one.
To get up to speed  with arrogance,  we can only look at bastards like the new Tory deputy  chairman , who loves a good hanging and the
thinks that those who use foodbanks should do budget  better,and cook fresh food.Come to Llanelli,  my friend,  and see the people forced to used foodbanks now, its a sad reality of where Weare in society .
It's worrying to think that a lot of the public are conned by these people, but they are.
Professional  liars like Johnson see to that, supported,  by the media.

So facing this assorted alliance of Tories  landowners, wealthy, media moguls ,self satisfied  back slapping company directors and bankers
are we the public, the little men and women.
We have the audacity  to question  corruption,  decadence, cronyism, 
unequivocal unequality, racism, misogyny,  better pay and working  conditions, the right to take industrial  action,and to fight for a better society for...HOW DARE WE ?.?

We shelter behind a fragile shield wall, like the one our forefathers fought to standstill  behind.
But that shield Wall is fragile, and is breaking, fractured beyond repair in parts.Those most vulnerable sheltering behind  the wall are ravaged  by the ills that now faces them, with no where to hide.
The mechanisms,  there once to protect them are slowly disintegrating . Society as we once knew it, almost vaporised.

In the not too distant future the forces of entitlement, greed, and corruption,  will hit our shield wall again, with all the force it can muster.
It will will do so, to maintain  the status quo and to retain power,for the few, and to maintain therefore the misery of the many.

What I say is this, we must stay strong , link arms in the shield wall, and FIGHT. To lose would be catastrophic,  bearing in mind all that has happened in our recent  past.
We do this not just for ourselves, and our children but for their children too.
Whatever our disparate  views, whatever  our differences ,time to unite.
If Starmer doesn't say too in too much detail  ATM  , fine by me, keep your powder dry, the fight will be with soon enough, and FiGHT we must, its one we cannot afford  to lose


I agree with you Pimp - to a point. Starmer, so far, can rely on the Tories not getting their act together. Slowly but surely he is introducing his agenda/policies - again sensible thinking. However as the next election gets nearer he has to take the gloves off - for goodness sake his advisers must have so much evidence of downright corruption & profiteering by Tory scum that an offensive, timed correctly, by his in house rottweiler should pave the way for a successful campaign. I vote for TBS as a candidate for the rottweiler.Ouch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2023 at 8:21am
Good points SP & GPR (sorry, SP - don't know why I read Lofty on your reply to me). What you touch on towards the end is really about how the Tories are so deeply ingrained, how it is they dominate electorally. There is a way forward to unravel their built in advantages ... but Starmer has ruled some key parts out e.g PR, federalism, written constitution. And therein lies my frustration. Perhaps I'm too impatient but I really want to know what Labour has in mind for their (highly likely) term in government. I think that we're at a critical juncture in British history. Whatever our opinion on Brexit, there's no doubt that it was an historic event. The UK State is creaking if not splintering with internal tensions not least of which is the crippling economic inequalities it has inflicted on the nations and regions of these isles. Westminster must bear the brunt of criticism for this. I'm thankful that Starmer has in fact identified many of these problems and issues. But I am impatient for the solutions. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2023 at 8:41am
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/23/revealed-scale-of-forever-chemical-pollution-across-uk-and-europe

Another article about PFAS. These things are nasty. Another symptom of a broken system. 

I always find it interesting how we see "the working class" pitched against "capitalism" as the great fight of the industrial era. I also find it interesting how the right think they have a monopoly on "capitalism" and exclusive ownership of Adam Smith's legacy. It's strange because Marxism is a capitalist theory too. It just proposes a different model of ownership. And Adam Smith would likely be aghast at the modern model of capitalism. In his seminal work he warns against oligarchies and monopolies. His theory is of a market of many small players all in competition. He talks of the necessity of investing in "public good". Further we should consider what is known as the "tragedy of the commons" - when our environment is degraded to the point it adversely affects human activity. 

To me capitalism is a description of a model of ownership and trade. It can be done well. It can be done badly. I think all the signs are there that we're doing things badly right now and have done for some time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lofty evans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2023 at 8:57am
Some great posts on this thread...


In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty"

"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2023 at 9:01am
Communisum is great , if you don’t want freedom of religion, secuality, ability to protest and don’t want to live in poverty all your lifeWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Kentexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2023 at 9:22am
Whether it is capitalism, communism or any other system it will invariably be created in the image of and work to the benefit of whoever controls it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oracle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2023 at 9:41am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2023 at 11:03am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Communisum is great , if you don’t want freedom of religion, secuality, ability to protest and don’t want to live in poverty all your lifeWink

That's authoratarianism not communism - yes I know, the two things can coexist. Did so in Soviet Russia obviously. On the other end of the specrum you have Thatcher's ridiculous statement "no such thing as society". I don't know why people think everything has to be so polarised, so black and white? It seems obvious to me that the common good and the rights and responsibilities of individuals should be held in balance? Communalism - good thing when we work to gether for common cause. Individual human rights - good thing that people have the freedom to live the (legal) life they choose. But I see folk almost spitting at one idea or the other. Ok, that is the extreme Left/Right to be fair but it is wrecking me how polarised public discourse has become. Where are the moderates!?!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2023 at 11:38am
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Communisum is great , if you don’t want freedom of religion, secuality, ability to protest and don’t want to live in poverty all your lifeWink

That's authoratarianism not communism - yes I know, the two things can coexist. Did so in Soviet Russia obviously. On the other end of the specrum you have Thatcher's ridiculous statement "no such thing as society". I don't know why people think everything has to be so polarised, so black and white? It seems obvious to me that the common good and the rights and responsibilities of individuals should be held in balance? Communalism - good thing when we work to gether for common cause. Individual human rights - good thing that people have the freedom to live the (legal) life they choose. But I see folk almost spitting at one idea or the other. Ok, that is the extreme Left/Right to be fair but it is wrecking me how polarised public discourse has become. Where are the moderates!?!
no it’s commumisum see how it worked in tianman square? Try  and be openly gay in castros cuba ? Or being openly cathollic in china? The people who espouse the benefits of communisum have never lived in a communist state and will certainly never choose to move to one despite decrying captalism.  Socialsm is a far more acceptable   Form of government that is what we should aim for, not right or far left.  I do agree with you on extreme politics of any kind I have seen first hand what that can lead to and the destruction it can wreak on a country and human lives

Edited by RR1972 - 24 February 2023 at 11:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lofty evans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2023 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Communisum is great , if you don’t want freedom of religion, secuality, ability to protest and don’t want to live in poverty all your lifeWink

That's authoratarianism not communism - yes I know, the two things can coexist. Did so in Soviet Russia obviously. On the other end of the specrum you have Thatcher's ridiculous statement "no such thing as society". I don't know why people think everything has to be so polarised, so black and white? It seems obvious to me that the common good and the rights and responsibilities of individuals should be held in balance? Communalism - good thing when we work to gether for common cause. Individual human rights - good thing that people have the freedom to live the (legal) life they choose. But I see folk almost spitting at one idea or the other. Ok, that is the extreme Left/Right to be fair but it is wrecking me how polarised public discourse has become. Where are the moderates!?!

Karl Marx and his ideals where fair, what spoils everything are humans ....


In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2023 at 2:44pm
Glad to see the Welsh assembly get a slating on question time last night for their frankly insane abdication of their national welsh road strategy 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2023 at 4:52pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Communisum is great , if you don’t want freedom of religion, secuality, ability to protest and don’t want to live in poverty all your lifeWink

That's authoratarianism not communism - yes I know, the two things can coexist. Did so in Soviet Russia obviously. On the other end of the specrum you have Thatcher's ridiculous statement "no such thing as society". I don't know why people think everything has to be so polarised, so black and white? It seems obvious to me that the common good and the rights and responsibilities of individuals should be held in balance? Communalism - good thing when we work to gether for common cause. Individual human rights - good thing that people have the freedom to live the (legal) life they choose. But I see folk almost spitting at one idea or the other. Ok, that is the extreme Left/Right to be fair but it is wrecking me how polarised public discourse has become. Where are the moderates!?!
no it’s commumisum see how it worked in tianman square? Try  and be openly gay in castros cuba ? Or being openly cathollic in china? The people who espouse the benefits of communisum have never lived in a communist state and will certainly never choose to move to one despite decrying captalism.  Socialsm is a far more acceptable   Form of government that is what we should aim for, not right or far left.  I do agree with you on extreme politics of any kind I have seen first hand what that can lead to and the destruction it can wreak on a country and human lives

I still think you're mainly describing authoratarianism. The states you described sometimes conflate these things and yes, there are enormous problems with each and every one of them. Mind you, I find the label "communist" doesn't fit China very well at all. "One-party capitalist dictatorship" might be better nowdays? What none of those countries are is democratic. Have we ever seen communism at work in a democracy? I don't believe so. The two concepts are by no means antithetical. We can say that Marxism inspired Mao, Castro and Lenin certainly. Was Stalin a Marxist? Not sure really. He was a b*****d without a shadow of a doubt. But by and large there we're dealing with authoratarians and dictators. I get it is not easy to look at communism without the weight of those countries influencing our views but I don't believe that concepts of communality in the state are without merit. 

But here's the big thing for me. When people become diehard communists/socialists/liberals/progressives/greens/conservatives/libertarians and can only think in the specific terms of their political philosophy, I just can't go along with it. It's funny - I'd describe my politics as liberal/green/social democratic. But I can't stand dogmatic adherence and rallying to the flag type tribal politics. This is why my better half encouraged *cough* me to get off Twitter LOL. I really did try to be reasonable but it's not a good place for nuance. It's keyboard warrior country.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2023 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Glad to see the Welsh assembly get a slating on question time last night for their frankly insane abdication of their national welsh road strategy 

Senedd or Welsh Government Roy come on now Wink

I get why we can't just go building roads willy nilly. And it's not a complete moratorium on building roads. There's still 14 had the go ahead. The rest have to go back to consultation based on a new set of criteria that they do not raise CO2 emissions. There remains a budget to maintain and adapt existing roads. What was frankly insane, was that the WG have cut bus services to some areas! There is a reasonable point that we must get to grips with our carbon emissions, but give people viable alternatives. My take on the whole thing was, Ok, so we need to cut car use ... what's the strategy? And that's what I'd still like to know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2023 at 5:12pm
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Communisum is great , if you don’t want freedom of religion, secuality, ability to protest and don’t want to live in poverty all your lifeWink

That's authoratarianism not communism - yes I know, the two things can coexist. Did so in Soviet Russia obviously. On the other end of the specrum you have Thatcher's ridiculous statement "no such thing as society". I don't know why people think everything has to be so polarised, so black and white? It seems obvious to me that the common good and the rights and responsibilities of individuals should be held in balance? Communalism - good thing when we work to gether for common cause. Individual human rights - good thing that people have the freedom to live the (legal) life they choose. But I see folk almost spitting at one idea or the other. Ok, that is the extreme Left/Right to be fair but it is wrecking me how polarised public discourse has become. Where are the moderates!?!
no it’s commumisum see how it worked in tianman square? Try  and be openly gay in castros cuba ? Or being openly cathollic in china? The people who espouse the benefits of communisum have never lived in a communist state and will certainly never choose to move to one despite decrying captalism.  Socialsm is a far more acceptable   Form of government that is what we should aim for, not right or far left.  I do agree with you on extreme politics of any kind I have seen first hand what that can lead to and the destruction it can wreak on a country and human lives

I still think you're mainly describing authoratarianism. The states you described sometimes conflate these things and yes, there are enormous problems with each and every one of them. Mind you, I find the label "communist" doesn't fit China very well at all. "One-party capitalist dictatorship" might be better nowdays? What none of those countries are is democratic. Have we ever seen communism at work in a democracy? I don't believe so. The two concepts are by no means antithetical. We can say that Marxism inspired Mao, Castro and Lenin certainly. Was Stalin a Marxist? Not sure really. He was a b*****d without a shadow of a doubt. But by and large there we're dealing with authoratarians and dictators. I get it is not easy to look at communism without the weight of those countries influencing our views but I don't believe that concepts of communality in the state are without merit. 

But here's the big thing for me. When people become diehard communists/socialists/liberals/progressives/greens/conservatives/libertarians and can only think in the specific terms of their political philosophy, I just can't go along with it. It's funny - I'd describe my politics as liberal/green/social democratic. But I can't stand dogmatic adherence and rallying to the flag type tribal politics. This is why my better half encouraged *cough* me to get off Twitter LOL. I really did try to be reasonable but it's not a good place for nuance. It's keyboard warrior country.
every communist state has been a  1 party states by dedefintion they aren’t democratic. They are also anti religion and are basically a race to the bottom.  Any 1 party state is a recipe for disaster be they far right or far left. There is a reason communism won’t happen in a democracy given a choice , people wom’t vote for itWink

Edited by RR1972 - 24 February 2023 at 5:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sir Duckling Tuft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2023 at 5:12pm
The labour mp was asked 6 times is this a bad decision that will hurt the welsh economy,6 times she didnt answer and changed the subject....Totally disingenuous and frankly pathetic
There was over £100 million spent on the relief roads investigation which was all wasted too...Now therell be more delays more congestion, more pot holes more pollution and remote areas even more cut off and isolated....Labour have totally lost the plot on this and many issues in wales.
They need to get back to reality. we need infinitely better roads and relief roads and one connecting the north and south....we also need a proper airport run privately and a massive all encompassing long term plan and strategy to rebuild town centres and help small medium businesses rather than cow tow to the retaila and corporate giants , who pay far less to the treasury per head than sme's


Edited by Sir Duckling Tuft - 24 February 2023 at 5:27pm
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