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Lions dinosaurs call for the end of tactical subs

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salmidach View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote salmidach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 August 2021 at 10:36pm
Originally posted by bills burr bills burr wrote:

Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

so people think keeping players on the pitch for 80 minutes will speed up the game?

Rugby is going backwards at a rate of knots...

we've gone from creating rules to protecting players, to getting rid of tactical subs and forcing players to play 80 minute rugby week in week out...

You are against all suggestions so far mooted and you consider all older ex players dinosaurs, pretty rude really, so lets get productive what are your suggestions?

stopping tactical subs isn't the answer. change the rules, make tries really expensive to concede, increase the points for tries, decrease the points for kicks. get rid of conversions to speed up the game.

We all want the ball in play longer. I think the longest the ball was in play during the lions tests was 28 minutes, in a game that lasted nearly 2 hours. Get rid of the scrum half human centipede, stop mauls (technically offside). There are many ways to speed up the game. 

The hits will ALWAYS be in the game now due to the size of the players and the enhancements (legal) in sports development and nutrition. By removing tactical subs, you might as well remove the coaches from attending the game and we'll have bloodgate after bloodgate.

quite a few of you don't remember pre-professional rugby when we didn't have tactical subs and the obvious motioning of coaches to tell players to go down and stay down so that they could be subbed off the field. It made a mockery of the injured player sub issue...

Who's going to say if a player is injured? the field doctor? is there going to be an extensive examination of a player to see if they are injured. Hey doc I've got a pulled ham. right well we'll have to take you for a scan to see if you are actually injured before we can let the other player on.

It's a bloody farce.....

If you want to make the game more entertaining then bloody officiate it properly. use the yellow card system for what it was brought in for and that is the professional foul, for slowing the game down. 

The game is being run by a bunch of [beep]ing idiots who just watch league and say we want to be like that. No we bloody don't. we want quick recycling, less kicking (the 50:22 rule will make more kicking) (the drop out from under the posts will mean MORE kicking) we want ball in bloody hand not ball to foot all the time. 
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bills burr View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bills burr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 August 2021 at 12:05am
Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

Originally posted by bills burr bills burr wrote:

Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

so people think keeping players on the pitch for 80 minutes will speed up the game?

Rugby is going backwards at a rate of knots...

we've gone from creating rules to protecting players, to getting rid of tactical subs and forcing players to play 80 minute rugby week in week out...

You are against all suggestions so far mooted and you consider all older ex players dinosaurs, pretty rude really, so lets get productive what are your suggestions?

stopping tactical subs isn't the answer. change the rules, make tries really expensive to concede, increase the points for tries, decrease the points for kicks. get rid of conversions to speed up the game.

We all want the ball in play longer. I think the longest the ball was in play during the lions tests was 28 minutes, in a game that lasted nearly 2 hours. Get rid of the scrum half human centipede, stop mauls (technically offside). There are many ways to speed up the game. 

The hits will ALWAYS be in the game now due to the size of the players and the enhancements (legal) in sports development and nutrition. By removing tactical subs, you might as well remove the coaches from attending the game and we'll have bloodgate after bloodgate.

quite a few of you don't remember pre-professional rugby when we didn't have tactical subs and the obvious motioning of coaches to tell players to go down and stay down so that they could be subbed off the field. It made a mockery of the injured player sub issue...

Who's going to say if a player is injured? the field doctor? is there going to be an extensive examination of a player to see if they are injured. Hey doc I've got a pulled ham. right well we'll have to take you for a scan to see if you are actually injured before we can let the other player on.

It's a bloody farce.....

If you want to make the game more entertaining then bloody officiate it properly. use the yellow card system for what it was brought in for and that is the professional foul, for slowing the game down. 

The game is being run by a bunch of [beep]ing idiots who just watch league and say we want to be like that. No we bloody don't. we want quick recycling, less kicking (the 50:22 rule will make more kicking) (the drop out from under the posts will mean MORE kicking) we want ball in bloody hand not ball to foot all the time. 

Fair do's that was a nice ematy reply with some interesting suggestions for us all to chew over. Without going into depth at this time of night, I wholly agree that the yellow isnt being used enough to punish ball killers. The aerialping pong obviously needs to be challenged, its more like gaelic football at times.Also are the refs really policing the back foot offside law? Do players take regular drugs tests too? Is the speed of their accelerated growth healthy ? Lifting at lineouts ? why not outlaw that? its dangerous as heck and slows the game down further....Not going bac k to 1970s lineouts but just ensure the gap is closed and players are in their correct positions and let them compete fairly for possession. 

There is also using our nous more, the all blacks have never commmitted more than 3 men to the ruck for 30 years, most other teams dive in long after the ball is lost. so we end up out numbered by their defence and hammered. Force them to cmmit to rucks pick and drive if necessary, snipe etc easier said than done lol

more later .....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dai38 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 August 2021 at 12:27pm
There are 2 issues to be discussed:-

A-Player safety

B-The game of rugby

I feel reducing the usage of subs is aimed to make the game safer, it will take a few seasons to sort it all out, but it can be done, training is geared now for power and short time on the pitch, IF it does change, then players training techniques will also change with emphasis on playing for longer, i.e. 80 minutes, it could lead to a more open game, if you remember Wales and Llanelli in the 60's & 70's, it was their fitness that won a lot of games, with scoring 20/30 points in the last 15/20 minutes, tries were 3 pts for much of that time, so while not advocating going back to that way, teams can adapt with the 21st century version of that game.
Tom Hudson and Ieuan Evans (coach) were paramount in that in the mid 60's.

How many of us, or more important mothers would want their sons or daughters to play rugby, one can see from so many head injuries how bad it is. That has to change.

As far as rugby goes that will keep on changing and as I said at the start another discussion point.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote salmidach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 August 2021 at 3:34pm
Again, who legislates the injury, who decides whether a player is injured or not.

A team would still require a complete front row cover on the bench!
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance - Terry Pratchett
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 August 2021 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

Again, who legislates the injury, who decides whether a player is injured or not.

A team would still require a complete front row cover on the bench!

And the proposal is not all positive about player safety. It introduces incentives to keep injured players on the pitch, particularly those who had a bang to the head. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SA14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 August 2021 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

Again, who legislates the injury, who decides whether a player is injured or not.

A team would still require a complete front row cover on the bench!

Doctors paper?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bills burr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 August 2021 at 11:42pm
Originally posted by Dai38 Dai38 wrote:

There are 2 issues to be discussed:-

A-Player safety

B-The game of rugby

I feel reducing the usage of subs is aimed to make the game safer, it will take a few seasons to sort it all out, but it can be done, training is geared now for power and short time on the pitch, IF it does change, then players training techniques will also change with emphasis on playing for longer, i.e. 80 minutes, it could lead to a more open game, if you remember Wales and Llanelli in the 60's & 70's, it was their fitness that won a lot of games, with scoring 20/30 points in the last 15/20 minutes, tries were 3 pts for much of that time, so while not advocating going back to that way, teams can adapt with the 21st century version of that game.
Tom Hudson and Ieuan Evans (coach) were paramount in that in the mid 60's.

How many of us, or more important mothers would want their sons or daughters to play rugby, one can see from so many head injuries how bad it is. That has to change.

As far as rugby goes that will keep on changing and as I said at the start another discussion point.
 
and fathers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2021 at 5:41pm
John Barclay has written a response to this but it’s behind a paywall so I don’t know why he’s disagreeing but anyone who does have a Times sub is welcome to read https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-want-rugby-to-be-safer-but-suspect-famous-five-are-wrong-on-subs-86zsr5nj7
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rugger8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 September 2021 at 2:01pm
Sorry for a somewhat cotroversial first post but there is a huge elephant in the room here. Which also transends the the issue of head injuries. How are these people getting to this size? Anyone who thinks its by eating chicken and brocoli and doing weights is extremely deluded. Anyone who thinks that drugtesting works is also deluded. Research the amount of time the HGH is dedectable after administration and how many times the normal level of Testostorone in the body will pass a drug test. The only people getting caught are idiots at lower levels. It was quite common in the game going back to the 1980s, it is now the norm. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 September 2021 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by Rugger8 Rugger8 wrote:

Sorry for a somewhat cotroversial first post but there is a huge elephant in the room here. Which also transends the the issue of head injuries. How are these people getting to this size? Anyone who thinks its by eating chicken and brocoli and doing weights is extremely deluded. Anyone who thinks that drugtesting works is also deluded. Research the amount of time the HGH is dedectable after administration and how many times the normal level of Testostorone in the body will pass a drug test. The only people getting caught are idiots at lower levels. It was quite common in the game going back to the 1980s, it is now the norm. 

Croeso! I do often wonder about this in rugby, specifically how few cases there are at the pro level seems to surprise me.

Maybe some the teams are doing well to evade getting caught but I think S&C teams are so highly skilled now that there’s probably not that much to gain from being 5% stronger if your chances of getting caught are even remotely close to 5%.

A bit of testosterone top up could help but in a complex sport like rugby it has only marginal gains vs in simpler sports like athletics and cycling the whole competition is about marginal gains, so efforts to beat the doping tests has a potentially bigger payoff.

Maybe I’m naive, but rugby takes punishments seriously, Sarries got relegated for financial misconduct, Harlquins had to live in the shadow of bloodgate for a long time. 

There’s huge sums to lose by doping in pro-rugby and it doesn’t make you that much more likely to win. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rugger8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 September 2021 at 8:04pm
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by Rugger8 Rugger8 wrote:

Sorry for a somewhat cotroversial first post but there is a huge elephant in the room here. Which also transends the the issue of head injuries. How are these people getting to this size? Anyone who thinks its by eating chicken and brocoli and doing weights is extremely deluded. Anyone who thinks that drugtesting works is also deluded. Research the amount of time the HGH is dedectable after administration and how many times the normal level of Testostorone in the body will pass a drug test. The only people getting caught are idiots at lower levels. It was quite common in the game going back to the 1980s, it is now the norm. 

Croeso! I do often wonder about this in rugby, specifically how few cases there are at the pro level seems to surprise me.

Maybe some the teams are doing well to evade getting caught but I think S&C teams are so highly skilled now that there’s probably not that much to gain from being 5% stronger if your chances of getting caught are even remotely close to 5%.

A bit of testosterone top up could help but in a complex sport like rugby it has only marginal gains vs in simpler sports like athletics and cycling the whole competition is about marginal gains, so efforts to beat the doping tests has a potentially bigger payoff.

Maybe I’m naive, but rugby takes punishments seriously, Sarries got relegated for financial misconduct, Harlquins had to live in the shadow of bloodgate for a long time. 

There’s huge sums to lose by doping in pro-rugby and it doesn’t make you that much more likely to win. 


Thank you for your welcome. I can assure you that the gains to be made are far in excess of 5%, and that the gains are not only strength. Indeed there is no sport IMO that is more suited to the use of PEDs. than rugby. It means you can train more and recover quicker, you have more aggression and drive, you are less likely to get injured and when you do you have shorter layoffs. You can be bigger stronger and faster. It in effect gives you a similar advantage to puberty, it takes you to the next level. It can be and is often the difference between being a professional sportsman and not. The drug of choice is HGH usually stacked with testosterone or one of its derivetives, no one is getting caught taking HGH because you must be tested within 2 houres of taking it, no one. I have no answer, its is what it is but if anyone believes you can get to the size of these players, with the percentage bodyfat they have and still do significant amounts of anearobic and aerobic training then the human race as evolved to a remarkable degree in 20 years. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 September 2021 at 7:00pm
Interesting, I don’t know much about it. I think you’re right at the individual level there can be a big incentive to take it, but at the pro level there’s too much to lose from getting caught. 

If one player thinks he needs to take it to make it, but then gets caught once they’ve made it they’ve f***ed their whole club? Serious breach of contract or serious damage for the club.

One thing that’s going to be interesting is because of covid athletes are now used to regular, even daily, testing - it wouldn’t surprise me if WADA look to find ways of testing and measuring players for T or other hormones on a regular basis, like they do with SCAT concussion. 

I believe they do do doping testing randomly, as well as the scheduled Whereabouts tests that I’ve heard Foxy mention (~36mins).

I think it’s rife in schools and semi-pro. Because exactly what you say, for the individual it’s what’s gonna get you in the A team or the First XV. Very sadly a friend of mine at school died of a heart attack aged 18. A super-talented rugby player, but he had been taking fat burning pills he’d bought online from America.

What you say about how quick it goes out of the system is the worrying part
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