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20 mph speed limits from 18 September 2023

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Raised By Peregos View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raised By Peregos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2023 at 11:28am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Out of curio how do 40 moh roafs compare to 30 mph injury wise? ? If they are lower Maybe we should increase not reduce soeec


They are not. See table. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2023 at 11:45am
Originally posted by Raised By Peregos Raised By Peregos wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Out of curio how do 40 moh roafs compare to 30 mph injury wise? ? If they are lower Maybe we should increase not reduce soeec


They are not. See table. 
so now many 20 mph roads were compared to 30 mpg when that table was completed? If a lot less then it’s hardly a shock there are lot less injuries? It’s just a numbers thing really
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"It's not it's pretty much all roads in built up areas" - Roy

Yes, of course it's built-up areas... that's the point. They are the dangerous roads for pedestrians, which this is predominantly aimed at protecting. Roads that don't really have pedestrians will be exempt. The limit is mostly to reduce pedestrian casualties... for you and RR, I don't know how you can look at those statistics and NOT see the amount of pedestrians hurt or killed on 30mph speed limit roads is VASTLY higher than any others.

I'm not raving about this change either, but the data does show that when you reduce speeds you reduce the impact of collisions and therefore reduce the most negative outcomes and it provide greater time for motorists to see pedestrians, and pedestrians to see motorists. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2023 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by Raised By Peregos Raised By Peregos wrote:

"It's not it's pretty much all roads in built up areas" - Roy

Yes, of course it's built-up areas... that's the point. They are the dangerous roads for pedestrians, which this is predominantly aimed at protecting. Roads that don't really have pedestrians will be exempt. The limit is mostly to reduce pedestrian casualties... for you and RR, I don't know how you can look at those statistics and NOT see the amount of pedestrians hurt or killed on 30mph speed limit roads is VASTLY higher than any others.

I'm not raving about this change either, but the data does show that when you reduce speeds you reduce the impact of collisions and therefore reduce the most negative outcomes and it provide greater time for motorists to see pedestrians, and pedestrians to see motorists. 

ok ill bet you any money now we see more 20 mph roads we see more injuries and fatalties in 20 mph zones, the current stats are skewed due to the numbers . The reason more people are currently injured in 30 mph zones is becuse there a lot more 30 mph zones. Let’s see these stats in a years time

Edited by RR1972 - 19 September 2023 at 1:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2023 at 1:38pm
No one asked for this

Its such a mess out there people slamming on brakes confused as to whether its 20 or 30 mph guaranteed to create more accidents
The so called poll drakeford did of 1000 people must have been skewed or biased as 99% of people Ive spoken to think this is comlete and utter madness and yet another cash cow for the WAG to squeeze out of struggling workers

This added to the insane WAG landlord laws is yet another nail in the coffin after brexit, covid, cost of living crisis are they out to destroy the working people?

Little wonder were one of the poorest countries in europe no doubt climbing to the top soon


Edited by roy munster - 19 September 2023 at 1:39pm
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[/QUOTE] ok ill bet you any money now we see more 20 mph roads we see more injuries and fatalties in 20 mph zones, the current stats are skewed due to the numbers . The reason more people are currently injured in 30 mph zones is becuse there a lot more 30 mph zones. Let’s see these stats in a years time [/QUOTE]

Of course it will! That's a stupid bet to take. No-one's arguing that it won't change THOSE particular stats on THAT graph. 

But what it WILL change is that a car travelling at 20mph will kill and injure less people than a car travelling at 30mph! And because a large percentage of roads will change (35% I believe?) to 20mph that will reduce total casualties overall.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raised By Peregos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2023 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

No one asked for this

Its such a mess out there people slamming on brakes confused as to whether its 20 or 30 mph guaranteed to create more accidents
The so called poll drakeford did of 1000 people must have been skewed or biased as 99% of people Ive spoken to think this is comlete and utter madness and yet another cash cow for the WAG to squeeze out of struggling workers

This added to the insane WAG landlord laws is yet another nail in the coffin after brexit, covid, cost of living crisis are they out to destroy the working people?

Little wonder were one of the poorest countries in europe no doubt climbing to the top soon

I'm sure a lot of people asked for this. The people on that table for a start!

Respectfully, if you have a problem with the legitimate research of a 1000 people, I have a problem with you canvassing your mates' opinions.

 (all of the research (full reports), along with a shed load of other documents pertaining to this change, can be found extremely easily on the Welsh gov site btw).

Also, it's a default speed limit. They'll be signs saying if you can go 30mph. I'm sure people will figure that out. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greypower1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2023 at 3:07pm
Electric cars are 20% heavier than equivalent petrol/diesel cars so if they are involved in a collision they will cause more serious injuries to humans.
Maybe a case to ban them from 20 mph zones.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2023 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by Raised By Peregos Raised By Peregos wrote:


ok ill bet you any money now we see more 20 mph roads we see more injuries and fatalties in 20 mph zones, the current stats are skewed due to the numbers . The reason more people are currently injured in 30 mph zones is becuse there a lot more 30 mph zones. Let’s see these stats in a years time [/QUOTE]

Of course it will! That's a stupid bet to take. No-one's arguing that it won't change THOSE particular stats on THAT graph. 

But what it WILL change is that a car travelling at 20mph will kill and injure less people than a car travelling at 30mph! And because a large percentage of roads will change (35% I believe?) to 20mph that will reduce total casualties overall.


[/QUOTE] up untill this rule next to no cars were travelling at 20 mph lets see how those stats carry on. Ill wager we have no less deaths in the next calendar year. Most fatalties are not caused by pepple going 30 mph but  people speeding and going well over the linit.  Often these folk are uninsured over the linit on drink or drugs if you think this new rule will stop them your very much mistaken
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2023 at 4:57pm
Originally posted by Raised By Peregos Raised By Peregos wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

No one asked for this

Its such a mess out there people slamming on brakes confused as to whether its 20 or 30 mph guaranteed to create more accidents
The so called poll drakeford did of 1000 people must have been skewed or biased as 99% of people Ive spoken to think this is comlete and utter madness and yet another cash cow for the WAG to squeeze out of struggling workers

This added to the insane WAG landlord laws is yet another nail in the coffin after brexit, covid, cost of living crisis are they out to destroy the working people?

Little wonder were one of the poorest countries in europe no doubt climbing to the top soon

I'm sure a lot of people asked for this. The people on that table for a start!

Respectfully, if you have a problem with the legitimate research of a 1000 people, I have a problem with you canvassing your mates' opinions.

 (all of the research (full reports), along with a shed load of other documents pertaining to this change, can be found extremely easily on the Welsh gov site btw).

Also, it's a default speed limit. They'll be signs saying if you can go 30mph. I'm sure people will figure that out. 

Nonsense
The signs are a mess loads of roads which are meant to be 20 are sign posted 30 
Online polls show 87% are against it and 130,000 have signed a petition to scrap this cash cow

Meanwhile if the oliticians are that concenred with road safety why dont they fix the pot holes and reduce the speed bumps which damage cars and make cars more dangerous?
It will obviously pollute much more too the endless stop start the endless speed bumps always in the lower gears and the massive tyre pollution from endless stop start
This is lunacy

The trouble with this one size fits all radical draconian ruling is it shows no flexibility for all the variables .....deliveries of criticial sulies whether it be medical , machinery, food etc massively damaging the economy , people late for hospital appointments , operations, workm school, ambulances late etc

Lest we forget its nigh on impossible to get an ambulance now so people are driving emergency patients to hospital but only at 20mph where every second counts that too will cost lives


Edited by roy munster - 19 September 2023 at 5:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2023 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Raised By Peregos Raised By Peregos wrote:


ok ill bet you any money now we see more 20 mph roads we see more injuries and fatalties in 20 mph zones, the current stats are skewed due to the numbers . The reason more people are currently injured in 30 mph zones is becuse there a lot more 30 mph zones. Let’s see these stats in a years time

Of course it will! That's a stupid bet to take. No-one's arguing that it won't change THOSE particular stats on THAT graph. 

But what it WILL change is that a car travelling at 20mph will kill and injure less people than a car travelling at 30mph! And because a large percentage of roads will change (35% I believe?) to 20mph that will reduce total casualties overall.


[/QUOTE] up untill this rule next to no cars were travelling at 20 mph lets see how those stats carry on. Ill wager we have no less deaths in the next calendar year. Most fatalties are not caused by pepple going 30 mph but  people speeding and going well over the linit.  Often these folk are uninsured over the linit on drink or drugs if you think this new rule will stop them your very much mistaken[/QUOTE]

I know for a fact the police for whatever reason often do not prosecute uninsured car thieves / drinkers etc As I stated previously 2 cars stolen a few years ago, the police were given everything they could possibly need cctv footage, tracker reports, umpteen witnessesm even the finger prints matched and the man walked free?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SA14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2023 at 9:38pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Raised By Peregos Raised By Peregos wrote:

"It's not it's pretty much all roads in built up areas" - Roy

Yes, of course it's built-up areas... that's the point. They are the dangerous roads for pedestrians, which this is predominantly aimed at protecting. Roads that don't really have pedestrians will be exempt. The limit is mostly to reduce pedestrian casualties... for you and RR, I don't know how you can look at those statistics and NOT see the amount of pedestrians hurt or killed on 30mph speed limit roads is VASTLY higher than any others.

I'm not raving about this change either, but the data does show that when you reduce speeds you reduce the impact of collisions and therefore reduce the most negative outcomes and it provide greater time for motorists to see pedestrians, and pedestrians to see motorists. 

ok ill bet you any money now we see more 20 mph roads we see more injuries and fatalties in 20 mph zones, the current stats are skewed due to the numbers . The reason more people are currently injured in 30 mph zones is becuse there a lot more 30 mph zones. Let’s see these stats in a years time

I’d love to hear why you think there’d be more fatalities on a 20mph road. 

Hilarious seeing the loonies signing a petition as if they’re gonna revert back to 30mph. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletpimp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2023 at 3:39am
The hot air generated on this thread is laughable.LOL

My wife and I WALK in and around Llanelli quite a lot.
We also live in an existing 20mph (limit PRIOR to the new limits coming in to effect on Sunday).
Do people stick to the limits..do they hell !
I walked Llanelli today and saw people speeding around.
The police are not going to do anything , so as we live in a "free for all " society, people do what they want.
Nothing will change.

Historically,  it was Barbara Castle , then minister of Transport(1965-68), who brought  in restrictions.
In Feb. 1966 Castle addressed Parliament , calling for profound change in public attitudes" to curtail increasing road fatality figures, stating "Hitler did did not manage to kill as many civilians in Britain's have have been killed on the roads ,since the war". The statistics bore out; between 1945 and the mid 1960's 150,00 were killed and several million injured on Britain's roads.
The situation is 100 times worse now, with more and more cars on the road.

According to various road safety organisations including the AA & RAC, many local authorities representing 28 million people in the UK have declared the national 30mph limit as no longer fit for purpose for most of their urban and village streets and replaced it with 20mph limits.

Another interesting statistic, research unveiled  at the recent COP26 climate conference, revealed that a 20mph can reduce Co2 and people harming NOx by more than 25%.
With transport representing 27% of the total carbon emissions in the UK, then reducing it by a quarter, is a substantive measure that can easily taken to reduce climate warming

"Brake", the road safety charity, reported that every 16 minutes someone is killed or seriously injured on UK roads. In total 1,6008 were killed in 2021, with deaths up 20% on 2020.
The police recorded that 30% of deaths were attributed to drivers exceeding the speed limit.

Last year a motorcyclist was very seriously injured turning right in to Walters rd towards Bigyn hill.
Dreadful parking meant that visibility was partly obscured, but what caused the severity of the collision, was the car travelling down Walters rd at speed. This led to the 20mph being introduced.
I also saw a pensioner being knocked over at the crossing, from pottery street to Asda in Llanelli, simply because the car was going to fast to stop quickly. The poor woman suffered a cardiac arrest, and despite our best efforts, died in the ambulance before it could get to Glangwili

As I understand it there is no "blanket ban" and local authorities can administer a 30mph were  they think appropriate. There is no doubt however that 'technically' our streets are safer at 20mph, but as I stated in my opening intro..it will make little difference as people still do as they like.

Cars are 'Gods' in todays world are we are  afraid not attempt to step on the motorists shoes.
Back in Barbara Castle's day, she introduced the 70mph on motorways, and met the same outrage as the people who signed the recent petition. 
The metaphorical comparison, of course is of a blinkered dray horse plodding on blissful unaware of what is going on around it.
Until it affects them , specifically, if their child or elderly parent was killed or badly injured in a collision, by someone driving too fast, people  will shake their fist in protest that their "freedoms " have been appallingly infringed upon.
We are living in a rootless society devoid of morality and conviction. People will even block disable person access with their car, as has happened to my elderly  neighbour on a few occasions. A complete lack of thought , consideration or compassion

To digress, the law, is a joke when it comes to  offending linked to driving at speed 
A man recently killed 3 people, after driving furiously being well over the limit, and received just a 17 month jail sentence. How can that be fair ?
I have said for a long time that depending on the severity of offence, lifetime driving bans should be introduced for drink drivers

The Tories in the Senydd are also to be condemned. Andrew T Davis what  a scumbag (and big Boris fan) he is. Initially there was cross party consensus initially, when the 20mph limit was proposed, and trialled in eight different locations , going back some time. Since then Davies and his rag tag bunch of toe rag Tories have sniffed out a political opportunity and are now banging the drum in opposition to 20mph, telling lies about blanket bans.
Yes, its the same Tories who opposed the setting up of the NHS, the introduction of the minimum wage, and even devolution itself , and yet there they are banging the drum.

To conclude on a almost comical note ,apart from the fact its deadly serious.
We have been debating on here about the 20mph limits.
One of the thing that has amazed me recently that with the proliferation of electric scooters, how long is going to be before someone gets killed or injured on these things?
I am not of course referring to vespers/mopeds, but the type of scooter that as a child you used to propel with your foot.
Most of these are operated by children around our streets , without a helmet, and are incredibly dangerous, both for themselves  and pedestrians.
How can parents be so irresponsible to allow this, but if (god forbid) an accident happened then there would be a fuss.

Its just another example of the Laissez-Faire attitudes which prevail today





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2023 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by scarletpimp scarletpimp wrote:

The hot air generated on this thread is laughable.LOL

My wife and I WALK in and around Llanelli quite a lot.
We also live in an existing 20mph (limit PRIOR to the new limits coming in to effect on Sunday).
Do people stick to the limits..do they hell !
I walked Llanelli today and saw people speeding around.
The police are not going to do anything , so as we live in a "free for all " society, people do what they want.
Nothing will change.

Historically,  it was Barbara Castle , then minister of Transport(1965-68), who brought  in restrictions.
In Feb. 1966 Castle addressed Parliament , calling for profound change in public attitudes" to curtail increasing road fatality figures, stating "Hitler did did not manage to kill as many civilians in Britain's have have been killed on the roads ,since the war". The statistics bore out; between 1945 and the mid 1960's 150,00 were killed and several million injured on Britain's roads.
The situation is 100 times worse now, with more and more cars on the road.

According to various road safety organisations including the AA & RAC, many local authorities representing 28 million people in the UK have declared the national 30mph limit as no longer fit for purpose for most of their urban and village streets and replaced it with 20mph limits.

Another interesting statistic, research unveiled  at the recent COP26 climate conference, revealed that a 20mph can reduce Co2 and people harming NOx by more than 25%.
With transport representing 27% of the total carbon emissions in the UK, then reducing it by a quarter, is a substantive measure that can easily taken to reduce climate warming

"Brake", the road safety charity, reported that every 16 minutes someone is killed or seriously injured on UK roads. In total 1,6008 were killed in 2021, with deaths up 20% on 2020.
The police recorded that 30% of deaths were attributed to drivers exceeding the speed limit.

Last year a motorcyclist was very seriously injured turning right in to Walters rd towards Bigyn hill.
Dreadful parking meant that visibility was partly obscured, but what caused the severity of the collision, was the car travelling down Walters rd at speed. This led to the 20mph being introduced.
I also saw a pensioner being knocked over at the crossing, from pottery street to Asda in Llanelli, simply because the car was going to fast to stop quickly. The poor woman suffered a cardiac arrest, and despite our best efforts, died in the ambulance before it could get to Glangwili

As I understand it there is no "blanket ban" and local authorities can administer a 30mph were  they think appropriate. There is no doubt however that 'technically' our streets are safer at 20mph, but as I stated in my opening intro..it will make little difference as people still do as they like.

Cars are 'Gods' in todays world are we are  afraid not attempt to step on the motorists shoes.
Back in Barbara Castle's day, she introduced the 70mph on motorways, and met the same outrage as the people who signed the recent petition. 
The metaphorical comparison, of course is of a blinkered dray horse plodding on blissful unaware of what is going on around it.
Until it affects them , specifically, if their child or elderly parent was killed or badly injured in a collision, by someone driving too fast, people  will shake their fist in protest that their "freedoms " have been appallingly infringed upon.
We are living in a rootless society devoid of morality and conviction. People will even block disable person access with their car, as has happened to my elderly  neighbour on a few occasions. A complete lack of thought , consideration or compassion

To digress, the law, is a joke when it comes to  offending linked to driving at speed 
A man recently killed 3 people, after driving furiously being well over the limit, and received just a 17 month jail sentence. How can that be fair ?
I have said for a long time that depending on the severity of offence, lifetime driving bans should be introduced for drink drivers

The Tories in the Senydd are also to be condemned. Andrew T Davis what  a scumbag (and big Boris fan) he is. Initially there was cross party consensus initially, when the 20mph limit was proposed, and trialled in eight different locations , going back some time. Since then Davies and his rag tag bunch of toe rag Tories have sniffed out a political opportunity and are now banging the drum in opposition to 20mph, telling lies about blanket bans.
Yes, its the same Tories who opposed the setting up of the NHS, the introduction of the minimum wage, and even devolution itself , and yet there they are banging the drum.

To conclude on a almost comical note ,apart from the fact its deadly serious.
We have been debating on here about the 20mph limits.
One of the thing that has amazed me recently that with the proliferation of electric scooters, how long is going to be before someone gets killed or injured on these things?
I am not of course referring to vespers/mopeds, but the type of scooter that as a child you used to propel with your foot.
Most of these are operated by children around our streets , without a helmet, and are incredibly dangerous, both for themselves  and pedestrians.
How can parents be so irresponsible to allow this, but if (god forbid) an accident happened then there would be a fuss.

Its just another example of the Laissez-Faire attitudes which prevail today






whats the to speed on those scooters , do they wear helmets and do they use lights?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2023 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Raised By Peregos Raised By Peregos wrote:

"It's not it's pretty much all roads in built up areas" - Roy

Yes, of course it's built-up areas... that's the point. They are the dangerous roads for pedestrians, which this is predominantly aimed at protecting. Roads that don't really have pedestrians will be exempt. The limit is mostly to reduce pedestrian casualties... for you and RR, I don't know how you can look at those statistics and NOT see the amount of pedestrians hurt or killed on 30mph speed limit roads is VASTLY higher than any others.

I'm not raving about this change either, but the data does show that when you reduce speeds you reduce the impact of collisions and therefore reduce the most negative outcomes and it provide greater time for motorists to see pedestrians, and pedestrians to see motorists. 

ok ill bet you any money now we see more 20 mph roads we see more injuries and fatalties in 20 mph zones, the current stats are skewed due to the numbers . The reason more people are currently injured in 30 mph zones is becuse there a lot more 30 mph zones. Let’s see these stats in a years time

I’d love to hear why you think there’d be more fatalities on a 20mph road. 

Hilarious seeing the loonies signing a petition as if they’re gonna revert back to 30mph. 

Pretty disrespectful calling 160,000 people loons but to be expected of you

The reasons for more accidents and confusion with the new speed limits and unmarked speed limits have been well documented in this thread and elsewhere you conveniently ignore the facts. The complete confusion over the wrong speed signs putting 30mph signs in 20mph roads ....Added to the endless speed bumps, pot holes , wide pavements, central islands, one way streets, part one way streets more and more road works extra traffic lights , extra congestion, more cameras, more pressure on the cops to police it all, roads you can only drive down at certain times of the day , cutbacks on maintenance and relief roads , Higher pollution with cars in lower gears and tyre pollution from the endless braking.....

DPFs diesel particulate filters endlessly clogged up thrugh the endless stop starting  Do you know how much it costs to clean or replace a DPF>?? £800 to clean , to replace brand new £2780 ??? How many can afford that? etc All puts yet more pressure and distraction on drivers on all their varies types of vehicles...Isnt it hard enough to drive big trucks and buses already without all this extra pressure and confusion ....End result will be more people quitting these jobs. far slower supply of goods , services, essential supplies, foods, medication, productivity down....a £4.5 billion hit to the welsh economy (These are welsh labours own estimations so itll probably be greater) . 

You conveniently choose to ignore all of this which makes your opinion n the matter worthless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2023 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Raised By Peregos Raised By Peregos wrote:

"It's not it's pretty much all roads in built up areas" - Roy

Yes, of course it's built-up areas... that's the point. They are the dangerous roads for pedestrians, which this is predominantly aimed at protecting. Roads that don't really have pedestrians will be exempt. The limit is mostly to reduce pedestrian casualties... for you and RR, I don't know how you can look at those statistics and NOT see the amount of pedestrians hurt or killed on 30mph speed limit roads is VASTLY higher than any others.

I'm not raving about this change either, but the data does show that when you reduce speeds you reduce the impact of collisions and therefore reduce the most negative outcomes and it provide greater time for motorists to see pedestrians, and pedestrians to see motorists. 

ok ill bet you any money now we see more 20 mph roads we see more injuries and fatalties in 20 mph zones, the current stats are skewed due to the numbers . The reason more people are currently injured in 30 mph zones is becuse there a lot more 30 mph zones. Let’s see these stats in a years time

I’d love to hear why you think there’d be more fatalities on a 20mph road. 

Hilarious seeing the loonies signing a petition as if they’re gonna revert back to 30mph. 
 there will be more fataliitues on 20 mph as there willbe more 20 mph  roads. There will be less fatalities on 30 mph roads as there will be less 30 mph. It’s just a numbers game. If the total numbers of deaths dont fall what next?  Do we go to 10 mph then?
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