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2012 - 2013 Law Variation Trials
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Crug Mawr View Drop Down
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Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

The reason was although it gave an anchor point for the bind, it also gave an advantage to the opposition in the tackle / ruck ie something more substantial to get a better grip on to either drag away from the breakdown, or to make a "dead weight" tackle !To be fair to all situations, all shirrts would have to have two "handles" to create a "level playing field" !


Forgot about the increased risk of finger/wrist dislocations/fractures that was deemed too large to consider the addition of bind handles.
 
I think that's it - the term 'handles' - in it's literal sense we picture a loop which would create different issues in the tackle - but if TH & LH only could have shirts that utilised the shirt technology that exists then binding could be made more practical wthout compromising player safety. My recollection is that the loop was the IRB's stance that didn't get agreement, yet when it comes to women's tights an internal seam was discussed, so I think there was a lot of room for debate. 
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I was hoping the hit would be taken out of the scrum altogether, and the pushing would only start after the ball was placed into a stable scrum. At least that way the scrum would get going. Most penalties and delays seem to come from the actual hit, which is unsuprising given the forces that are colliding and the proponsity for one of 4 in the front row to lose his feet under such impact.
 
Seem to have made matters worse with this imo.
 
Like the ruch change, about time. Wonder how Martin Roberts will cope with this?
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Originally posted by Once a monkey Once a monkey wrote:

I was hoping the hit would be taken out of the scrum altogether, and the pushing would only start after the ball was placed into a stable scrum. At least that way the scrum would get going. Most penalties and delays seem to come from the actual hit, which is unsuprising given the forces that are colliding and the proponsity for one of 4 in the front row to lose his feet under such impact.
 
Seem to have made matters worse with this imo.
 
Like the ruch change, about time. Wonder how Martin Roberts will cope with this?


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Nah, too old mate. But surely the drive after the ball entered the scrum would remove half the nonsense we now see. I appreciate the really destructive packs, like the O's, lose out somewhat, byut as a spectacle it would be far better mate.
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Originally posted by Once a monkey Once a monkey wrote:

I was hoping the hit would be taken out of the scrum altogether, and the pushing would only start after the ball was placed into a stable scrum. At least that way the scrum would get going. Most penalties and delays seem to come from the actual hit, which is unsuprising given the forces that are colliding and the proponsity for one of 4 in the front row to lose his feet under such impact.
 
Seem to have made matters worse with this imo.
 
Like the ruch change, about time. Wonder how Martin Roberts will cope with this?

Agree with this OAM. The game would be speeded up no end and would be far safer, if both packs came together and bound properly and were not allowed to shove or move forward until the ref commanded the scrum half to put the ball in. 
I must say that one of the most frustrating pieces of refereeing I have ever seen was in the -20's game between Wales and the All Blacks on Sunday.  Hardly a single scrum was completed.  I felt sorry for both packs of forwards because the ref seemed was taking a ridiculous amount of time to get the packs in the right position ( as he saw things ) and he then exacerbated matters by his slow delivery of the commands.  Goodness knows how much time was wasted by him on the scrums.  Both teams suffered from his pedantry.
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Originally posted by Albert Albert wrote:

Originally posted by Once a monkey Once a monkey wrote:

I was hoping the hit would be taken out of the scrum altogether, and the pushing would only start after the ball was placed into a stable scrum. At least that way the scrum would get going. Most penalties and delays seem to come from the actual hit, which is unsuprising given the forces that are colliding and the proponsity for one of 4 in the front row to lose his feet under such impact.
 
Seem to have made matters worse with this imo.
 
Like the ruch change, about time. Wonder how Martin Roberts will cope with this?

Agree with this OAM. The game would be speeded up no end and would be far safer, if both packs came together and bound properly and were not allowed to shove or move forward until the ref commanded the scrum half to put the ball in. 
I must say that one of the most frustrating pieces of refereeing I have ever seen was in the -20's game between Wales and the All Blacks on Sunday.  Hardly a single scrum was completed.  I felt sorry for both packs of forwards because the ref seemed was taking a ridiculous amount of time to get the packs in the right position ( as he saw things ) and he then exacerbated matters by his slow delivery of the commands.  Goodness knows how much time was wasted by him on the scrums.  Both teams suffered from his pedantry.
As you say Albert, it would speed the game up, would improve player welfare and remove the lottery of refereeing following the hit. They train too hard and we spend too much money for this to go on for ever.
 
Was it the first or second try of the U20's game on Sunday, the NZ scrum splintered apart as the ball came in, but the ball popped out on their side as it disintegrated and they scored from the lose ball. Should have been a penalty to Wales, but the ref was at a loss what to do
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The guy seemed to be playing to the gallery. Totally clueless at scrum time and no empathy at all for the players. 
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Originally posted by Once a monkey Once a monkey wrote:

Originally posted by Albert Albert wrote:

Originally posted by Once a monkey Once a monkey wrote:

I was hoping the hit would be taken out of the scrum altogether, and the pushing would only start after the ball was placed into a stable scrum. At least that way the scrum would get going. Most penalties and delays seem to come from the actual hit, which is unsuprising given the forces that are colliding and the proponsity for one of 4 in the front row to lose his feet under such impact.
 
Seem to have made matters worse with this imo.
 
Like the ruch change, about time. Wonder how Martin Roberts will cope with this?

Agree with this OAM. The game would be speeded up no end and would be far safer, if both packs came together and bound properly and were not allowed to shove or move forward until the ref commanded the scrum half to put the ball in. 
I must say that one of the most frustrating pieces of refereeing I have ever seen was in the -20's game between Wales and the All Blacks on Sunday.  Hardly a single scrum was completed.  I felt sorry for both packs of forwards because the ref seemed was taking a ridiculous amount of time to get the packs in the right position ( as he saw things ) and he then exacerbated matters by his slow delivery of the commands.  Goodness knows how much time was wasted by him on the scrums.  Both teams suffered from his pedantry.
As you say Albert, it would speed the game up, would improve player welfare and remove the lottery of refereeing following the hit. They train too hard and we spend too much money for this to go on for ever.
 
Was it the first or second try of the U20's game on Sunday, the NZ scrum splintered apart as the ball came in, but the ball popped out on their side as it disintegrated and they scored from the lose ball. Should have been a penalty to Wales, but the ref was at a loss what to do


Completely agree with you guys about the scrum - we should go back to binding before the ball is put in, with neither side to push until the ball is in the scrum (free kick for early pushes).

I'm happy that a 'Dickson' law has been introduced to prevent 9s from just looking at the ball at he back of a ruck for two minutes or more - that was ridiculous.
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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Sorry for being a bit twp like ... but when have we ever put the ball in before the bind was formed .?????

I personally think (at personal risk of being mullered by front rows worldwide) that the "hit" should be taken out of the game ... ie ...

  1. Front Rows bind
  2. 2nd Rows Join
  3. Back Rows join
  4. When the scrum is steady & square, ball is fed "STRAIGHT" !
No problems ... just like the 60's & 70's !
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Incidentally ... Law reads

Stationary and parallel. Until the ball leaves the scrum half’s hands, the scrum must be stationary and the middle line must be parallel to the goal lines. A team must not shove the scrum away from the mark before the ball is thrown in.
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Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Sorry for being a bit twp like ... but when have we ever put the ball in before the bind was formed .?????

I personally think (at personal risk of being mullered by front rows worldwide) that the "hit" should be taken out of the game ... ie ...

  1. Front Rows bind
  2. 2nd Rows Join
  3. Back Rows join
  4. When the scrum is steady & square, ball is fed "STRAIGHT" !
No problems ... just like the 60's & 70's !


Indeed - you describe exactly what I mean. My playing days were in the 60s and 70s, and we didn't waste nearly as much time on scrums in those days.

I think you were being twp on purpose, Scarletman - I'm sure you knew what I meant!


Edited by aber-fan - 21 June 2012 at 3:25pm
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Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:



Completely agree with you guys about the scrum - we should go back to binding before the ball is put in, with neither side to push until the ball is in the scrum (free kick for early pushes).

I'm happy that a 'Dickson' law has been introduced to prevent 9s from just looking at the ball at he back of a ruck for two minutes or more - that was ridiculous.


I was referring to this bit ?????? Confused
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Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:



Completely agree with you guys about the scrum - we should go back to binding before the ball is put in, with neither side to push until the ball is in the scrum (free kick for early pushes).

I'm happy that a 'Dickson' law has been introduced to prevent 9s from just looking at the ball at he back of a ruck for two minutes or more - that was ridiculous.


I was referring to this bit ?????? Confused


I know - I expressed myself badly, which I'm 100% sure you realised !
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Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:



Completely agree with you guys about the scrum - we should go back to binding before the ball is put in, with neither side to push until the ball is in the scrum (free kick for early pushes).

I'm happy that a 'Dickson' law has been introduced to prevent 9s from just looking at the ball at he back of a ruck for two minutes or more - that was ridiculous.


I was referring to this bit ?????? Confused


I know - I expressed myself badly, which I'm 100% sure you realised !


Of course Wink LOL
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I've just been watching the IRB videos about enforcing current rules properly.  It would be good if they do that.  My overwhelming thought was I'm glad I'm not a referee it's bloomin difficult nay impossible.
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Originally posted by solihullscarlet solihullscarlet wrote:

I've just been watching the IRB videos about enforcing current rules properly.  It would be good if they do that.  My overwhelming thought was I'm glad I'm not a referee it's bloomin difficult nay impossible.



We can all expect and request that Referees apply all laws to the best of their ability & understanding ! I'ts a bit like driving ... Something new crops up every time you Ref !Wink
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