Scarlet Fever Llanelli Rugby Sport Wales Tickets Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > RUGBY > GENERAL RUGBY
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Boring Rugby
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login


Boring Rugby

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
SA14 View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Don't blink

Joined: 15 August 2004
Location: Pemberton
Status: Offline
Points: 21203
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SA14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2021 at 5:52pm
If the Lions tour goes ahead I’d be a worried Gatland. 
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
dyniol53 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 April 2018
Location: Llundain
Status: Offline
Points: 875
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2021 at 5:36pm
3 weeks into the 6Nations, has anyone changed their minds?
https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en
Back to Top
dyniol53 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 April 2018
Location: Llundain
Status: Offline
Points: 875
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 January 2021 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by Dic Penderyn Dic Penderyn wrote:

Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by Dic Penderyn Dic Penderyn wrote:

Much of the problem lies with the coaches,and not the law-makers.

I don't know what the answer is but if you look at lower league, we have less subs (yes I know its not even close to being on the same level as the pro game but still) & I feel the game is better for it. 
The mind-set is depressing,and it's logical conclusion is to avoid passing/handling/running with the ball.I do think there's a valid argument re.subs.

Just reading an interview with a recently retired Irish centre who “didn’t fulfil his potential” in Leinster or Ireland; here’s what he says about coaching

Joe Schmidt came in as Leinster boss in 2010 and Macken admits “it wouldn’t take a rocket scientist to realise I didn’t get on particularly well with Joe.” There was no hostility, Macken stresses, but he never felt Schmidt backed him to be the player he wanted to be.

“He wanted me to be crash, bang, and wallop, which wasn’t how I played. I liked using my pass but I was told not to throw miss passes.”

https://www.the42.ie/brendan-macken-leinster-retirement-5332536-Jan2021/


Certainly is depressing to see that - when you read the article you hear that this kid was expected to go far but the Irish system didn’t suit how he wanted to play so essentially spat him out.

I think about Bierne and how incredible he was for us - and how the Irish system hasn’t fully managed to let him blossom. 

Then of  think how many of these incredibly skilful players is rugby spitting out because they’re “not heavy enough, not powerful enough” etc

https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en
Back to Top
Eastern outpost View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 13 March 2012
Location: South Suffolk
Status: Offline
Points: 17545
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2021 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Yes interesting comments from Cipriani. Would I pay more to travel to watch a team with Cipriani playing 10 and allowed to play what was in front him over watching Farrell continually kick - for sure. The defensive negative tactics employed by most in the game will mean that England will always be there or thereabouts in competitions. However, as South Africa proved, no plan B = defeat when plan A doesn't work. 

When they come up against a side they cannot bully, who meet them head on the gainline and compete just as hard at set pieces they are going to need more. They may well come unstuck this season against France for that very reason. 
I love watching Cipriani play when he’s at his best but he’s like a sieve in defence 
Shame he never played on the same side as Sivivatu. Wink
In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.
Back to Top
dr_martinov View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 06 August 2005
Location: Tycoch
Status: Offline
Points: 12325
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2021 at 9:40am
Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by Dic Penderyn Dic Penderyn wrote:

The mind-set is depressing,and it's logical conclusion is to avoid passing/handling/running with the ball.I do think there's a valid argument re.subs.

It is very depressing. I never thought I wouldn't be incredibly excited about the 6 nations but I am not feeling it this year as I know that the sides are now preferring to kick the ball away & prey on mistakes from the oppostion.

The interview with Cips says that Eddie doesn't want England to have the ball but in all truth with the 2 flankers & backs they have got they are capable of playing a very attractive style of rugby.

When many teams actively don't want the ball I think the sport has an issue. Dic's comment about the breakdown being about winning the penalty and not the ball is also very insightful. We could also look at changing the points for tries, conversion, penalties again, either increasing a try to 6 points or decreasing a penalty to 2. There would still be a lot of penalties kicked deep for lineouts but then at least there's options from that: catch and drive, ruck, out quick to backs.

The downside of course would possibly be teams cynically giving away more penalties if there's a lower er... penalty but if you then bring in cards for cynical stuff that could address that. I still think my point that refs should not be expected to explain the law constantly to both sides as some sort of running coach-commentator. If someone does something wrong, ping them and then explain why. They are professional rugby players who should know the laws. The ref's interpretation will always play a large part in the game I know but refs having to say "there's the offside line" or "no, you can't go in from that angle" or even "no, don't touch it" when a player is about to catch a ball in an offside position is silly when you compare it to other sports and it means players play the ref, not the actual laws. 
Back to Top
scarletnut View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 28 April 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 13182
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletnut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2021 at 9:37am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Yes interesting comments from Cipriani. Would I pay more to travel to watch a team with Cipriani playing 10 and allowed to play what was in front him over watching Farrell continually kick - for sure. The defensive negative tactics employed by most in the game will mean that England will always be there or thereabouts in competitions. However, as South Africa proved, no plan B = defeat when plan A doesn't work. 

When they come up against a side they cannot bully, who meet them head on the gainline and compete just as hard at set pieces they are going to need more. They may well come unstuck this season against France for that very reason. 
I love watching Cipriani play when he’s at his best but he’s like a sieve in defence 
I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1
Back to Top
Fscarlet View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group


Joined: 26 January 2015
Status: Offline
Points: 6151
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2021 at 9:24am
I just feel that coaches don't have the confidence in players handling skills now.

If you look at what Wales did under Gatland, incredible defence aside, Wales handling skills were very good & they did the basics right. How many times now do we see a prop or hooker as first receiver & there's a little fumble? 
Back to Top
GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 01 December 2014
Location: Rhydcymerau
Status: Offline
Points: 12423
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2021 at 9:21am
Yes interesting comments from Cipriani. Would I pay more to travel to watch a team with Cipriani playing 10 and allowed to play what was in front him over watching Farrell continually kick - for sure. The defensive negative tactics employed by most in the game will mean that England will always be there or thereabouts in competitions. However, as South Africa proved, no plan B = defeat when plan A doesn't work. 

When they come up against a side they cannot bully, who meet them head on the gainline and compete just as hard at set pieces they are going to need more. They may well come unstuck this season against France for that very reason. 
Back to Top
Dic Penderyn View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 03 November 2019
Location: Llanelli
Status: Offline
Points: 1043
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dic Penderyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2021 at 9:21am
Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by Dic Penderyn Dic Penderyn wrote:

The mind-set is depressing,and it's logical conclusion is to avoid passing/handling/running with the ball.I do think there's a valid argument re.subs.

It is very depressing. I never thought I wouldn't be incredibly excited about the 6 nations but I am not feeling it this year as I know that the sides are now preferring to kick the ball away & prey on mistakes from the oppostion.

The interview with Cips says that Eddie doesn't want England to have the ball but in all truth with the 2 flankers & backs they have got they are capable of playing a very attractive style of rugby.

...but not,I'd say,with the slow,mechanical,pre-programmed play-makers they persist in picking.Always been a bit of an Anglo-Saxon trait,it could be argued,but one which spread throughout European rugby with professionalism.Fortunately,the French seem to be returning to some of their traditional values-I'd like to see Wales do the same.I'd argue that much of Gatland's success in 6 Nations was achieved at the expense of a French side that had lost its way.
Back to Top
Fscarlet View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group


Joined: 26 January 2015
Status: Offline
Points: 6151
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2021 at 9:11am
Originally posted by Dic Penderyn Dic Penderyn wrote:

The mind-set is depressing,and it's logical conclusion is to avoid passing/handling/running with the ball.I do think there's a valid argument re.subs.

It is very depressing. I never thought I wouldn't be incredibly excited about the 6 nations but I am not feeling it this year as I know that the sides are now preferring to kick the ball away & prey on mistakes from the oppostion.

The interview with Cips says that Eddie doesn't want England to have the ball but in all truth with the 2 flankers & backs they have got they are capable of playing a very attractive style of rugby.
Back to Top
Dic Penderyn View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 03 November 2019
Location: Llanelli
Status: Offline
Points: 1043
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dic Penderyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2021 at 9:09am
Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by Dic Penderyn Dic Penderyn wrote:

Much of the problem lies with the coaches,and not the law-makers.For instance,no fly-half today has to contend with flankers breaking early from the scrum and flying up on him,as they did in Benny's day.Likewise with the lineout and the change to the offside line there.In spite of these  positive changes,coaches have failed to respond by encouraging attacking play at 10 .At the break-down,players are coached to win the penalty rather than win/provide the ball:this has become a massive part of flanker play,contributing to the attrtitional nature of the position,and is,I would argue,to the detriment of the game.There's an interview with Cipriani on Walesonline today(culled from the Mail)where he offers some interesting,sensible thoughts in relation to England.

True, this is because they know they will have a kick to touch/goal rather than turn the ball over, have one phase & potentially lose it from a knock on. I don't know what the answer is but if you look at lower league, we have less subs (yes I know its not even close to being on the same level as the pro game but still) & I feel the game is better for it. 
The mind-set is depressing,and it's logical conclusion is to avoid passing/handling/running with the ball.I do think there's a valid argument re.subs.
Back to Top
GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 01 December 2014
Location: Rhydcymerau
Status: Offline
Points: 12423
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2021 at 9:05am
Originally posted by Dic Penderyn Dic Penderyn wrote:

Much of the problem lies with the coaches,and not the law-makers.For instance,no fly-half today has to contend with flankers breaking early from the scrum and flying up on him,as they did in Benny's day.Likewise with the lineout and the change to the offside line there.In spite of these  positive changes,coaches have failed to respond by encouraging attacking play at 10 .At the break-down,players are coached to win the penalty rather than win/provide the ball:this has become a massive part of flanker play,contributing to the attrtitional nature of the position,and is,I would argue,to the detriment of the game.There's an interview with Cipriani on Walesonline today(culled from the Mail)where he offers some interesting,sensible thoughts in relation to England.

The breakdown area needs a complete overhaul. It is a recipe for negative rugby as well as being an area of lots of injuries in general including head. A rule limiting the number allowed to be involved in the ruck would be a start, only players on their feet, counter rucking ok with again limited numbers, no judo style clear outs, straight red card for anyone entering the ruck off their feet.
Back to Top
Fscarlet View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group


Joined: 26 January 2015
Status: Offline
Points: 6151
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2021 at 8:56am
Originally posted by Dic Penderyn Dic Penderyn wrote:

Much of the problem lies with the coaches,and not the law-makers.For instance,no fly-half today has to contend with flankers breaking early from the scrum and flying up on him,as they did in Benny's day.Likewise with the lineout and the change to the offside line there.In spite of these  positive changes,coaches have failed to respond by encouraging attacking play at 10 .At the break-down,players are coached to win the penalty rather than win/provide the ball:this has become a massive part of flanker play,contributing to the attrtitional nature of the position,and is,I would argue,to the detriment of the game.There's an interview with Cipriani on Walesonline today(culled from the Mail)where he offers some interesting,sensible thoughts in relation to England.

True, this is because they know they will have a kick to touch/goal rather than turn the ball over, have one phase & potentially lose it from a knock on. I don't know what the answer is but if you look at lower league, we have less subs (yes I know its not even close to being on the same level as the pro game but still) & I feel the game is better for it. 
Back to Top
Dic Penderyn View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 03 November 2019
Location: Llanelli
Status: Offline
Points: 1043
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dic Penderyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2021 at 8:48am
Much of the problem lies with the coaches,and not the law-makers.For instance,no fly-half today has to contend with flankers breaking early from the scrum and flying up on him,as they did in Benny's day.Likewise with the lineout and the change to the offside line there.In spite of these  positive changes,coaches have failed to respond by encouraging attacking play at 10 .At the break-down,players are coached to win the penalty rather than win/provide the ball:this has become a massive part of flanker play,contributing to the attrtitional nature of the position,and is,I would argue,to the detriment of the game.There's an interview with Cipriani on Walesonline today(culled from the Mail)where he offers some interesting,sensible thoughts in relation to England.
Back to Top
dyniol53 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 April 2018
Location: Llundain
Status: Offline
Points: 875
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 January 2021 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

So would the two previous posters say there’s nothing wrong with the game per-se, just the way teams are coached in Northern Hemisphere?
No, I’d say it’s a combination of the two. My opinion is the game could be better if the players were coached differently, but rule changes could and probably should be introduced to make rugby more exciting (and hopefully safer.) But it’s a fine line between keeping the essence of the game, and making it a better spectacle to watch.

Agree with all points, I suppose the purpose of this thread would be to try and tweak the laws or change the way the laws are enforced so that coaches are incentivised to coach more positive rugby.

The thing I like about lowering subs is that it means the same players have to run that “rush” defence for 80 minutes - which means more fatigue, less intense defence, so hopefully more gaps space and opportunities for mismatches. 

Another alternative is to make the game 90 minutes (perhaps with 2 quarter times to keep the advertisers happy LOL )
https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en
Back to Top
dyniol53 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 April 2018
Location: Llundain
Status: Offline
Points: 875
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 January 2021 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

So would the two previous posters say there’s nothing wrong with the game per-se, just the way teams are coached in Northern Hemisphere?

No I wouldn't say there's nothing wrong with the game. The breakdown battle has become far too important in my view. We are talking specifically here about making the game more entertaining and not safer - that is another thread. For greater entertainment most of us want to see running open pacey rugby with skillful players being rewarded. More time and space should equal more open rugby but players have to have an attacking mindset when they enter the arena. Perhaps we should look at what the rewards are for scoring. Make all kicks 2 points, tries from within 10 metres of the opposition  line 4 points, from within the opponents half 5 points, from your own half 7 points. 

FWIW I agree that there seems to be a mindset issue with Northern Hemisphere rugby “must not lose” & “no mistakes” attitude vs go out and try and play the game at high tempo.

Though I think Scotland tried the latter during the last WC cycle and what it meant was they would inevitably score try of the tournament but come 5th in the 6N and lost 2/3 Autumn Intls.

I find twisting the scoring perverts incentives - if you make a penalty worth less then defences infringe more because it’s less costly. 

Though I think you could trial a way where a conversion is worth 3 if the try is scored from outside the 22 etc
https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.04
Copyright ©2001-2021 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.