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Jones2004 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 January 2021 at 11:57am
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

I'd love to read input from Super rugby watchers on many of these comments. I still think the offside line is where to look as rush defences have neutralised the tactical 10 and pushed much of the pressure-relieving kicking onto box kicks from 9, and so caterpillar for protection and depth.

Yes, it would be interesting to hear if SH fans are having the same dreary arguments. 

Some have argued for Rugby to turn into a Summer Sport - or perhaps create more indoor arenas like Millennium, Dunedin or La Defance in Paris.

But i’m not sure I’d be able to say Wales home games are more exciting than anyone else’s.. Racing are exciting but not just because they play indoors. Then I don’t watch the Highlanders much so couldn’t say.
We all talk about New Zealand rugby as the most exciting even though their teams kick a lot more than the global average and their weather isn’t exactly great! The difference is their kicks are attacking kicks, not necessarily chip kicks but well thought and executed kicks, and their basic skills are superb. If the Welsh teams came close to emulating that then the games would become a lot more interesting without needing to wait for any law changes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 January 2021 at 12:09pm
Well we in the Northern Hemisphere ( notable exceptions aside like all French teams) seem pretty incapable of clear attacking thought. How many clear overlaps have we wasted this season? The commentators were getting excited when Edinburgh made the most of a man in the bin and used the overlap to score last Saturday. This was after they had butchered an earlier chance when throwing a long miss pass which allowed the defender to drift & stop the try.

Very rarely do you see NZ or Australia for that matter make such mistakes when given nailed on try scoring chances. Are our players less naturally skillful - I don't think so; are they being coached to be risk free - too right with the result that even when a risk is not needed they play safety first. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 January 2021 at 12:44pm
So would the two previous posters say there’s nothing wrong with the game per-se, just the way teams are coached in Northern Hemisphere?

Edited by dyniol53 - 19 January 2021 at 12:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SA14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 January 2021 at 12:56pm
No kicking. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 January 2021 at 12:59pm
Some very good thinking on this thread. If only we could get some introduced.

Enforcing existing rules is easiest and would cure lack of space caused by offside, for example.

How about someone timing on the side whether the caterpillar has taken too long and they blow up, eg if ref has said use it, or doing it separately from the ref.

Giving the players the hurry up would soon get the message over and improve the game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 January 2021 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

So would the two previous posters say there’s nothing wrong with the game per-se, just the way teams are coached in Northern Hemisphere?

No I wouldn't say there's nothing wrong with the game. The breakdown battle has become far too important in my view. We are talking specifically here about making the game more entertaining and not safer - that is another thread. For greater entertainment most of us want to see running open pacey rugby with skillful players being rewarded. More time and space should equal more open rugby but players have to have an attacking mindset when they enter the arena. Perhaps we should look at what the rewards are for scoring. Make all kicks 2 points, tries from within 10 metres of the opposition  line 4 points, from within the opponents half 5 points, from your own half 7 points. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 January 2021 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

So would the two previous posters say there’s nothing wrong with the game per-se, just the way teams are coached in Northern Hemisphere?
No, I’d say it’s a combination of the two. My opinion is the game could be better if the players were coached differently, but rule changes could and probably should be introduced to make rugby more exciting (and hopefully safer.) But it’s a fine line between keeping the essence of the game, and making it a better spectacle to watch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 January 2021 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

So would the two previous posters say there’s nothing wrong with the game per-se, just the way teams are coached in Northern Hemisphere?

No I wouldn't say there's nothing wrong with the game. The breakdown battle has become far too important in my view. We are talking specifically here about making the game more entertaining and not safer - that is another thread. For greater entertainment most of us want to see running open pacey rugby with skillful players being rewarded. More time and space should equal more open rugby but players have to have an attacking mindset when they enter the arena. Perhaps we should look at what the rewards are for scoring. Make all kicks 2 points, tries from within 10 metres of the opposition  line 4 points, from within the opponents half 5 points, from your own half 7 points. 

FWIW I agree that there seems to be a mindset issue with Northern Hemisphere rugby “must not lose” & “no mistakes” attitude vs go out and try and play the game at high tempo.

Though I think Scotland tried the latter during the last WC cycle and what it meant was they would inevitably score try of the tournament but come 5th in the 6N and lost 2/3 Autumn Intls.

I find twisting the scoring perverts incentives - if you make a penalty worth less then defences infringe more because it’s less costly. 

Though I think you could trial a way where a conversion is worth 3 if the try is scored from outside the 22 etc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 January 2021 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

So would the two previous posters say there’s nothing wrong with the game per-se, just the way teams are coached in Northern Hemisphere?
No, I’d say it’s a combination of the two. My opinion is the game could be better if the players were coached differently, but rule changes could and probably should be introduced to make rugby more exciting (and hopefully safer.) But it’s a fine line between keeping the essence of the game, and making it a better spectacle to watch.

Agree with all points, I suppose the purpose of this thread would be to try and tweak the laws or change the way the laws are enforced so that coaches are incentivised to coach more positive rugby.

The thing I like about lowering subs is that it means the same players have to run that “rush” defence for 80 minutes - which means more fatigue, less intense defence, so hopefully more gaps space and opportunities for mismatches. 

Another alternative is to make the game 90 minutes (perhaps with 2 quarter times to keep the advertisers happy LOL )
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dic Penderyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2021 at 8:48am
Much of the problem lies with the coaches,and not the law-makers.For instance,no fly-half today has to contend with flankers breaking early from the scrum and flying up on him,as they did in Benny's day.Likewise with the lineout and the change to the offside line there.In spite of these  positive changes,coaches have failed to respond by encouraging attacking play at 10 .At the break-down,players are coached to win the penalty rather than win/provide the ball:this has become a massive part of flanker play,contributing to the attrtitional nature of the position,and is,I would argue,to the detriment of the game.There's an interview with Cipriani on Walesonline today(culled from the Mail)where he offers some interesting,sensible thoughts in relation to England.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2021 at 8:56am
Originally posted by Dic Penderyn Dic Penderyn wrote:

Much of the problem lies with the coaches,and not the law-makers.For instance,no fly-half today has to contend with flankers breaking early from the scrum and flying up on him,as they did in Benny's day.Likewise with the lineout and the change to the offside line there.In spite of these  positive changes,coaches have failed to respond by encouraging attacking play at 10 .At the break-down,players are coached to win the penalty rather than win/provide the ball:this has become a massive part of flanker play,contributing to the attrtitional nature of the position,and is,I would argue,to the detriment of the game.There's an interview with Cipriani on Walesonline today(culled from the Mail)where he offers some interesting,sensible thoughts in relation to England.

True, this is because they know they will have a kick to touch/goal rather than turn the ball over, have one phase & potentially lose it from a knock on. I don't know what the answer is but if you look at lower league, we have less subs (yes I know its not even close to being on the same level as the pro game but still) & I feel the game is better for it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2021 at 9:05am
Originally posted by Dic Penderyn Dic Penderyn wrote:

Much of the problem lies with the coaches,and not the law-makers.For instance,no fly-half today has to contend with flankers breaking early from the scrum and flying up on him,as they did in Benny's day.Likewise with the lineout and the change to the offside line there.In spite of these  positive changes,coaches have failed to respond by encouraging attacking play at 10 .At the break-down,players are coached to win the penalty rather than win/provide the ball:this has become a massive part of flanker play,contributing to the attrtitional nature of the position,and is,I would argue,to the detriment of the game.There's an interview with Cipriani on Walesonline today(culled from the Mail)where he offers some interesting,sensible thoughts in relation to England.

The breakdown area needs a complete overhaul. It is a recipe for negative rugby as well as being an area of lots of injuries in general including head. A rule limiting the number allowed to be involved in the ruck would be a start, only players on their feet, counter rucking ok with again limited numbers, no judo style clear outs, straight red card for anyone entering the ruck off their feet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dic Penderyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2021 at 9:09am
Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by Dic Penderyn Dic Penderyn wrote:

Much of the problem lies with the coaches,and not the law-makers.For instance,no fly-half today has to contend with flankers breaking early from the scrum and flying up on him,as they did in Benny's day.Likewise with the lineout and the change to the offside line there.In spite of these  positive changes,coaches have failed to respond by encouraging attacking play at 10 .At the break-down,players are coached to win the penalty rather than win/provide the ball:this has become a massive part of flanker play,contributing to the attrtitional nature of the position,and is,I would argue,to the detriment of the game.There's an interview with Cipriani on Walesonline today(culled from the Mail)where he offers some interesting,sensible thoughts in relation to England.

True, this is because they know they will have a kick to touch/goal rather than turn the ball over, have one phase & potentially lose it from a knock on. I don't know what the answer is but if you look at lower league, we have less subs (yes I know its not even close to being on the same level as the pro game but still) & I feel the game is better for it. 
The mind-set is depressing,and it's logical conclusion is to avoid passing/handling/running with the ball.I do think there's a valid argument re.subs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2021 at 9:11am
Originally posted by Dic Penderyn Dic Penderyn wrote:

The mind-set is depressing,and it's logical conclusion is to avoid passing/handling/running with the ball.I do think there's a valid argument re.subs.

It is very depressing. I never thought I wouldn't be incredibly excited about the 6 nations but I am not feeling it this year as I know that the sides are now preferring to kick the ball away & prey on mistakes from the oppostion.

The interview with Cips says that Eddie doesn't want England to have the ball but in all truth with the 2 flankers & backs they have got they are capable of playing a very attractive style of rugby.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dic Penderyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2021 at 9:21am
Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by Dic Penderyn Dic Penderyn wrote:

The mind-set is depressing,and it's logical conclusion is to avoid passing/handling/running with the ball.I do think there's a valid argument re.subs.

It is very depressing. I never thought I wouldn't be incredibly excited about the 6 nations but I am not feeling it this year as I know that the sides are now preferring to kick the ball away & prey on mistakes from the oppostion.

The interview with Cips says that Eddie doesn't want England to have the ball but in all truth with the 2 flankers & backs they have got they are capable of playing a very attractive style of rugby.

...but not,I'd say,with the slow,mechanical,pre-programmed play-makers they persist in picking.Always been a bit of an Anglo-Saxon trait,it could be argued,but one which spread throughout European rugby with professionalism.Fortunately,the French seem to be returning to some of their traditional values-I'd like to see Wales do the same.I'd argue that much of Gatland's success in 6 Nations was achieved at the expense of a French side that had lost its way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2021 at 9:21am
Yes interesting comments from Cipriani. Would I pay more to travel to watch a team with Cipriani playing 10 and allowed to play what was in front him over watching Farrell continually kick - for sure. The defensive negative tactics employed by most in the game will mean that England will always be there or thereabouts in competitions. However, as South Africa proved, no plan B = defeat when plan A doesn't work. 

When they come up against a side they cannot bully, who meet them head on the gainline and compete just as hard at set pieces they are going to need more. They may well come unstuck this season against France for that very reason. 
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