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SospanMawr View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 hours 17 minutes ago at 3:38pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Very interesting debate by all contributors. To come back to the subject of Robinson and his 9 year old tweets. It is pretty clear from his Gary Speed comments that he was not a very nice guy - should that preclude him from playing for England?

I hate to think what current thinking would be about Fred Trueman telling an Indian batsman when he edged him again through slips for 4 that he had more edges than a broken pisspot. Also would the furore over Fred's comments have been worse because it was an Indian batsmen & not a white Australian? 

For me political correctness is out of control - racism is of course repugnant, intolerance because of religion, colour or sexuality is equally repugnant but it can only be improved by tolerance & education. We should all look at, for me, one of the most abused people in recent memory and how they dealt with that abuse - Nelson Mandela, to see the power of forgiveness.

Robinson's comments were horrible, made when he was old enough to know better - he has apologised unreservedly - for me he plays for England if he is good enough. If all sporting teams are now only to made up of people who pass the political correctness threshold then our games are going to be the poorer. 
I would personally say that I would hope not. But some of it strayed past “not very nice” into the realms of outright racist and the usage of slurs.

I completely understand why he has been suspended. Imagine if the ECB, already having picked someone with that sort of history that they missed, picked him again and more/worse things came out?

At the same time though, I understand that the ECB as a business, brand and representative organisation are allowed to choose who they have representing them exactly the same as any other company. 

I think it was ex England opener Michael Carberry on Sky Sports who (rightly) asked where has Ollie Robinson’s education/change/development in his personal views been evidenced? This is not to say it hasn’t happened, or that he’s not the same silly kid he was, but where’s the proof?

It’s a sticky situation (some would say a sticky wicket but I won’t go for that low hanging fruit).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 hours 9 minutes ago at 3:46pm
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

I’m quite looking forward to growing up in a society where there’s genuine repercussions for things like casual homophobia, racism, sexism etc.
You're being taught tolerance but its actually intolerance in many ways too. Everyone has rights.
When I get sacked for being labelled a racist or sexist..? Surely the best way to avoid that is.. don’t be racist or sexist?

The thing that’s non-obvious about what you’re saying here is that the definitions of these words are actively changing quicker than most people feel comfortable. 

James D’amore, a Google employee, gets sacked for saying that men and woman are, on average, different. This is something that’s provably true and 99% of people agree with. But he is sacked for sexism. 

A white cop kills a black citizen and we are told it’s an example of institutionally racist crime - even though there are video examples of white officers killing white citizens in directly similar examples e.g. Tony Tempa & Daniel Shaver. 

We are told that BLM is a protest about police brutality, until it’s not. Suddenly it’s about challenging implicit racism and “decolonising the curriculum”. 

Everyone is a sinner in this religion, everyone must confess and there will be no forgiveness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 hours 1 minutes ago at 3:54pm
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

I’m quite looking forward to growing up in a society where there’s genuine repercussions for things like casual homophobia, racism, sexism etc.
You're being taught tolerance but its actually intolerance in many ways too. Everyone has rights.
When I get sacked for being labelled a racist or sexist..? Surely the best way to avoid that is.. don’t be racist or sexist?

The thing that’s non-obvious about what you’re saying here is that the definitions of these words are actively changing quicker than most people feel comfortable. 

James D’amore, a Google employee, gets sacked for saying that men and woman are, on average, different. This is something that’s provably true and 99% of people agree with. But he is sacked for sexism.

A white cop kills a black citizen and we are told it’s an example of institutionally racist crime - even though there are video examples of white officers killing white citizens in directly similar examples e.g. Tony Tempa & Daniel Shaver. 

We are told that BLM is a protest about police brutality, until it’s not. Suddenly it’s about challenging implicit racism and “decolonising the curriculum”. 

Everyone is a sinner in this religion, everyone must confess and there will be no forgiveness.
Sounds good, but that’s a bit (possibly purposefully) over simplistic isn’t it?

He said that discrimination does exist, and made points that women are, among other things, more prone to neuroticism (feelings of anxiety, worry, fear, anger, guilt etc) which naturally isn’t a trait that you’d want in a high end business. So then it suggests that they shouldn’t be in those positions doesn’t it? He’s also been accused of misinterpreting the science involved by multiple people who collated and undertook the research and wrote what he quoted.

In terms of institutionally racist, just because while people are also killed by US Police doesn’t mean that there can’t be institutional racism. Both things can be true. There are numerous facts and statistics concerning the treatment of BAME by American Police that support the statement that they are more in danger of death or mistreatment at the hands of the police.


Edited by SospanMawr - 18 hours 59 minutes ago at 3:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 hours 45 minutes ago at 4:10pm
Ok playing devils advocate bame people are much more likely to be killed by other bame people  than by the police both in the usa and uk. Should the focus of bame anger be looking more at that aspect. Just the other day a leading uk blm activist was shot and all the suspects are young bame males. Where is the protest against that crime?? Btw i’m not bame but i have travelled all over the world and had plenty of stick for being welsh be it good natured or other wise again not comparing this to what bame people have put up with. But your very niave to think
White people don’t get racist abuse at times No one should be victimised for their creed colour  skin  gender religion or sexuality. Be they stephen lawrence or kris donald


Edited by RR1972 - 18 hours 24 minutes ago at 4:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 hours 27 minutes ago at 4:28pm
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Very interesting debate by all contributors. To come back to the subject of Robinson and his 9 year old tweets. It is pretty clear from his Gary Speed comments that he was not a very nice guy - should that preclude him from playing for England?

I hate to think what current thinking would be about Fred Trueman telling an Indian batsman when he edged him again through slips for 4 that he had more edges than a broken pisspot. Also would the furore over Fred's comments have been worse because it was an Indian batsmen & not a white Australian? 

For me political correctness is out of control - racism is of course repugnant, intolerance because of religion, colour or sexuality is equally repugnant but it can only be improved by tolerance & education. We should all look at, for me, one of the most abused people in recent memory and how they dealt with that abuse - Nelson Mandela, to see the power of forgiveness.

Robinson's comments were horrible, made when he was old enough to know better - he has apologised unreservedly - for me he plays for England if he is good enough. If all sporting teams are now only to made up of people who pass the political correctness threshold then our games are going to be the poorer. 
I would personally say that I would hope not. But some of it strayed past “not very nice” into the realms of outright racist and the usage of slurs.

I completely understand why he has been suspended. Imagine if the ECB, already having picked someone with that sort of history that they missed, picked him again and more/worse things came out?

At the same time though, I understand that the ECB as a business, brand and representative organisation are allowed to choose who they have representing them exactly the same as any other company. 

I think it was ex England opener Michael Carberry on Sky Sports who (rightly) asked where has Ollie Robinson’s education/change/development in his personal views been evidenced? This is not to say it hasn’t happened, or that he’s not the same silly kid he was, but where’s the proof?

It’s a sticky situation (some would say a sticky wicket but I won’t go for that low hanging fruit).
the proof i would guess is the 9 years since that tweet. He hasn’t been involved any controversy, he must have played with and aganist lots of bame crickters not one has ever accused him of a racist remark. Neither have any members of the public. What evidence has carberry got to say otherwise? Or has he never done anything stupid as a 18 year old he later regretted as mature grown adult?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dai Guevara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 hours 2 minutes ago at 5:53pm
All empires must be racist. How else can you justify plundering and enslaving whole continents? Believing that you are vastly superior to those you are colonising / and whose lands you are plundering is essential or your colonising force won't be able justify their violence and greed and will be forced to live and work in peace and share equally the products of their "work". The fact that there is a significant remnant of this attitude still in the minds of the colonising race isn't really a shock. Deeply ingrained prejudices, some with religious backing, don't vanish overnight. In the USA you can still hear it in the speeches of their leading politicians who still "drone" on about being the exceptional country, the shining city on the hill, and all the other excuses for why they should be able to bomb anyone who doesn't agree back to the stone age.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 hours 36 minutes ago at 6:19pm
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

I’m quite looking forward to growing up in a society where there’s genuine repercussions for things like casual homophobia, racism, sexism etc.
You're being taught tolerance but its actually intolerance in many ways too. Everyone has rights.
When I get sacked for being labelled a racist or sexist..? Surely the best way to avoid that is.. don’t be racist or sexist?

The thing that’s non-obvious about what you’re saying here is that the definitions of these words are actively changing quicker than most people feel comfortable. 

James D’amore, a Google employee, gets sacked for saying that men and woman are, on average, different. This is something that’s provably true and 99% of people agree with. But he is sacked for sexism.

Sounds good, but that’s a bit (possibly purposefully) over simplistic isn’t it?

He said that discrimination does exist, and made points that women are, among other things, more prone to neuroticism (feelings of anxiety, worry, fear, anger, guilt etc) which naturally isn’t a trait that you’d want in a high end business. So then it suggests that they shouldn’t be in those positions doesn’t it? He’s also been accused of misinterpreting the science involved by multiple people who collated and undertook the research and wrote what he quoted.

Accused of “misinterpreting the science” meant he got fired. Thats what people mean about cancel culture - It’s not about tolerance all of a sudden, he was fired for ‘allegedly’ misrepresenting science. 

Neuroticism is a scientific term, it’s the technical term for a cluster of traits. He wasn’t saying all women are neurotic he was saying “women on average are more prone to neuroticism”. Something which psychologists have studied for decades since the big 5 personality traits were ‘discovered’. It’s the same thing as suggesting men, on average, have more upper body strength than women. 

It was supposed to be about tolerance and equality? It was supposed to be about repercussions for racism, sexism or other heresies. But all of a sudden it’s about firing people who relay a plausible but possibly inaccurate interpretation of science. 

Do you see that now? Can you understand why people think this is a sinister ideology? 

A movement that might all of a sudden come for them? Not because they’re a raging sexist/racist but because something as gentle as suggesting men and women are, on average, different might end up being held up as an opinion that is beyond the pale and you’ve lost your livelihood. 

D’amore was just one example, but there are many. 


Edited by dyniol53 - 16 hours 33 minutes ago at 6:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 hours 29 minutes ago at 6:26pm
Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

All empires must be racist. How else can you justify plundering and enslaving whole continents? Believing that you are vastly superior to those you are colonising / and whose lands you are plundering is essential or your colonising force won't be able justify their violence and greed and will be forced to live and work in peace and share equally the products of their "work". The fact that there is a significant remnant of this attitude still in the minds of the colonising race isn't really a shock. Deeply ingrained prejudices, some with religious backing, don't vanish overnight. In the USA you can still hear it in the speeches of their leading politicians who still "drone" on about being the exceptional country, the shining city on the hill, and all the other excuses for why they should be able to bomb anyone who doesn't agree back to the stone age.

Do you include the Ottoman Empire in this? How should modern Turkey deal with their legacy of colonialism? 

Likewise Japan, how should Japan deal with their legacy of imperialism? 

Would you’d say Japan, or the Japanese, are racist?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dai Guevara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 hours 12 minutes ago at 8:43pm
Any country using military conquest to plunder a country must be included, and we of course are England's first colony, although the colonisers' media are hardly likely to be so honest about it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 hours 8 minutes ago at 8:47pm
Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

Any country using military conquest to plunder a country must be included, and we of course are England's first colony, although the colonisers' media are hardly likely to be so honest about it.
that’s pretty much any major nation then from denmark to italy to portugal to china
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 hours 17 minutes ago at 10:38pm
Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

All empires must be racist. How else can you justify plundering and enslaving whole continents? Believing that you are vastly superior to those you are colonising / and whose lands you are plundering is essential or your colonising force won't be able justify their violence and greed and will be forced to live and work in peace and share equally the products of their "work". The fact that there is a significant remnant of this attitude still in the minds of the colonising race isn't really a shock. Deeply ingrained prejudices, some with religious backing, don't vanish overnight. In the USA you can still hear it in the speeches of their leading politicians who still "drone" on about being the exceptional country, the shining city on the hill, and all the other excuses for why they should be able to bomb anyone who doesn't agree back to the stone age.

If you define the act of invading your neighbours for financial or geographical gain as evidence of racism then every country, village, tribe in human history is racist. You particularly hate the English due to their colonial history. Where did the Celts come from you think? Reckon they never invaded each other as well? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 hours 8 minutes ago at 10:47pm
Blimey this thread went a strange direction. Even I don't think this is Johnson's fault.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8 hours 35 minutes ago at 2:20am
This thread is all Jac Morgans fault 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8 hours 34 minutes ago at 2:21am
Every country on earth has conversations , discussions, debates, arguments about too many people coming to live in their countries i.e. foreigners. It has nothing to do with the colour of peoples skin. 
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 8 hours 23 minutes ago at 2:32am
Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

All empires must be racist. How else can you justify plundering and enslaving whole continents? Believing that you are vastly superior to those you are colonising / and whose lands you are plundering is essential or your colonising force won't be able justify their violence and greed and will be forced to live and work in peace and share equally the products of their "work". The fact that there is a significant remnant of this attitude still in the minds of the colonising race isn't really a shock. Deeply ingrained prejudices, some with religious backing, don't vanish overnight. In the USA you can still hear it in the speeches of their leading politicians who still "drone" on about being the exceptional country, the shining city on the hill, and all the other excuses for why they should be able to bomb anyone who doesn't agree back to the stone age.

Put simply, the empires ruthlessly utilised their competitive advantages at the time to plunder the world of its resources. Sometimes out of pure greed and gluttony, for profit and riches, for fame and glory, sometimes to create opium wars, sometimes to create empires and make Gods of themselves... But also in some cases, there were some benefits whether by accident or by design, creating huge strides in education, scientific medical advancement, for the betterment of human kind. One might also argue the empire seemed to leave behind some kind of lasting, albeit flawed democracies too.


Edited by roy munster - 8 hours 21 minutes ago at 2:34am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 1 hour 22 minutes ago at 9:33am
Anyhow looks like restrictions are staying untill 19.7 in england and goodness knows when here. Doubt well get a full crowd in pys untill 2022!
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