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dr_martinov
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Posted: 17 February 2022 at 3:58pm |
totallybiasedscarlet wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
totallybiasedscarlet wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
totallybiasedscarlet wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
Far too many posters on here who credit the Tories with securing Brexit when they really know deep down that the credit for that was all down to the good ole British people who can always be relied upon to do the right thing.
Do posters really think that baffoon Boris is any different now to when he led the Brexit campaign? Frankly if he had not been involved the margin would have been bigger.
As for opportunities post Brexit - how long have I got........... |
Nah, it was a Tory internal squabble that got pumped into the public domain via the right wing press. 30 years of drip drip anti Europe propaganda fed into the thoughts of people who were suffering the consequences of de-industrialisation followed by neo-Liberalism. Played into the hands of the very political establishment responsible for their being left behind. Played out with a faux patriotism and appeal to a (debatable) bygone "greatness."
The right thing? Not in a million years.
The analysis on Boris, sorry, that's wrong. Johnson has proven his popularity (in England) with a huge win in 2019. Yes, people actually voted for him. I know it's hard to believe but he was a popular figure ... I'm sure you'll recall GPR. Polls suggest differently now ... I would say let's hope they prove correct but the so-called government in waiting has very little to commend them either.
I continue to despair. |
So your response is that Boris has become a baffoon since he became PM and the country have now seen through him- well there you go!!!!!! Don't quite hear the defence of the non elected, twin parliament bureaucracy posing as the united Europe. |
No. That's quite some leap there GPR. Boris is a walking ego on stilts, a populist when it suits his ambition, a known liar and was always ill suited to public office. But he was popular wasn't he. Clearly people were stupid enough to vote for him. Get what you deserve and all that ... except for the majority who didn't vote for him, but hey, the voting system is a debate for another time. And it's strange, but I remember voting in European Parliament elections. I don't agree the pro-Brexit guff about the EU being anti-democratic. We voted to leave didn't we? Nobody stopped us. We live with the consequences. |
Would you like me to list the unelected who preside over the fortunes of many Europeans from either Strasbourg or Brussels; the cost of moving between both centres by the way is £140m per year which really is a bargain don't you think???? |
Ah, the appointments by elected governments. That list?
£140 million. Yeah, not great. What do you think of the £12 Billion to renovate the Palace of Westminster? Money well spent? What do you think of the FPTP election system that delivers a majority of MP's on a minority of the popular vote? But, you know ... that awful EU.
Don't get me wrong, I never thought the EU was perfect or wouldn't benefit from reform but there's far more wrong with the UK and most of the problems we face are the consequence of domestic incompetence.
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Good point, I wonder how much we've wasted on our unelected monarchy over the same timeframe as EU membership? Latest is Andrew needs 10 million to pay off someone who accused him of serious sexual abuse. Wonder where the origins of that money will be?
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Posted: 17 February 2022 at 4:42pm |
dr_martinov wrote:
totallybiasedscarlet wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
totallybiasedscarlet wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
totallybiasedscarlet wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
Far too many posters on here who credit the Tories with securing Brexit when they really know deep down that the credit for that was all down to the good ole British people who can always be relied upon to do the right thing.
Do posters really think that baffoon Boris is any different now to when he led the Brexit campaign? Frankly if he had not been involved the margin would have been bigger.
As for opportunities post Brexit - how long have I got........... |
Nah, it was a Tory internal squabble that got pumped into the public domain via the right wing press. 30 years of drip drip anti Europe propaganda fed into the thoughts of people who were suffering the consequences of de-industrialisation followed by neo-Liberalism. Played into the hands of the very political establishment responsible for their being left behind. Played out with a faux patriotism and appeal to a (debatable) bygone "greatness."
The right thing? Not in a million years.
The analysis on Boris, sorry, that's wrong. Johnson has proven his popularity (in England) with a huge win in 2019. Yes, people actually voted for him. I know it's hard to believe but he was a popular figure ... I'm sure you'll recall GPR. Polls suggest differently now ... I would say let's hope they prove correct but the so-called government in waiting has very little to commend them either.
I continue to despair. |
So your response is that Boris has become a baffoon since he became PM and the country have now seen through him- well there you go!!!!!! Don't quite hear the defence of the non elected, twin parliament bureaucracy posing as the united Europe. |
No. That's quite some leap there GPR. Boris is a walking ego on stilts, a populist when it suits his ambition, a known liar and was always ill suited to public office. But he was popular wasn't he. Clearly people were stupid enough to vote for him. Get what you deserve and all that ... except for the majority who didn't vote for him, but hey, the voting system is a debate for another time. And it's strange, but I remember voting in European Parliament elections. I don't agree the pro-Brexit guff about the EU being anti-democratic. We voted to leave didn't we? Nobody stopped us. We live with the consequences. |
Would you like me to list the unelected who preside over the fortunes of many Europeans from either Strasbourg or Brussels; the cost of moving between both centres by the way is £140m per year which really is a bargain don't you think???? |
Ah, the appointments by elected governments. That list?
£140 million. Yeah, not great. What do you think of the £12 Billion to renovate the Palace of Westminster? Money well spent? What do you think of the FPTP election system that delivers a majority of MP's on a minority of the popular vote? But, you know ... that awful EU.
Don't get me wrong, I never thought the EU was perfect or wouldn't benefit from reform but there's far more wrong with the UK and most of the problems we face are the consequence of domestic incompetence.
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Good point, I wonder how much we've wasted on our unelected monarchy over the same timeframe as EU membership? Latest is Andrew needs 10 million to pay off someone who accused him of serious sexual abuse. Wonder where the origins of that money will be? |
Yup, add to that the House of Lords, the billions lost on wasted PPE, the preferred supplier scandal that gets no press, the tens of billions - must be over £40Bn by now - on track and trace that's largely lined the pockets of Tory mates in the glorious new Chumocracy of Brexitain. Well, we got what most of us didn't vote for ... an anglo-British Nationalist, hard right, low tax (except they're having to raise taxes thanks to their pilfering), small state government.
And people say they prefer it. Iesu Mawr. That's why I despair.
Edited by totallybiasedscarlet - 17 February 2022 at 4:46pm
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dr_martinov
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Posted: 17 February 2022 at 5:50pm |
totallybiasedscarlet wrote:
Yup, add to that the House of Lords, the billions lost on wasted PPE, the preferred supplier scandal that gets no press, the tens of billions - must be over £40Bn by now - on track and trace that's largely lined the pockets of Tory mates in the glorious new Chumocracy of Brexitain. Well, we got what most of us didn't vote for ... an anglo-British Nationalist, hard right, low tax (except they're having to raise taxes thanks to their pilfering), small state government.
And people say they prefer it. Iesu Mawr. That's why I despair.
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Never thought I'd say anything positive about it but at least some of the Lords are ex-politicians with experience to push back stupid laws...
As to the Royal Family, Price Andrew's £10 million paying for his own significant sins was headline news one day, forgotten the next. I just don't see how there's not massive protests over this. He was a naval officer as his only job right? I doubt that it paid enough money for him to afford £10 million by himself. As such, it is us, the public, who are paying for this. It's unacceptable and other countries would riot over crap like this.
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Posted: 17 February 2022 at 5:53pm |
dr_martinov wrote:
totallybiasedscarlet wrote:
Yup, add to that the House of Lords, the billions lost on wasted PPE, the preferred supplier scandal that gets no press, the tens of billions - must be over £40Bn by now - on track and trace that's largely lined the pockets of Tory mates in the glorious new Chumocracy of Brexitain. Well, we got what most of us didn't vote for ... an anglo-British Nationalist, hard right, low tax (except they're having to raise taxes thanks to their pilfering), small state government.
And people say they prefer it. Iesu Mawr. That's why I despair.
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Never thought I'd say anything positive about it but at least some of the Lords are ex-politicians with experience to push back stupid laws...
As to the Royal Family, Price Andrew's £10 million paying for his own significant sins was headline news one day, forgotten the next. I just don't see how there's not massive protests over this. He was a naval officer as his only job right? I doubt that it paid enough money for him to afford £10 million by himself. As such, it is us, the public, who are paying for this. It's unacceptable and other countries would riot over crap like this. |
Indeed.
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SA14
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Posted: 17 February 2022 at 10:16pm |
totallybiasedscarlet wrote:
dr_martinov wrote:
totallybiasedscarlet wrote:
Yup, add to that the House of Lords, the billions lost on wasted PPE, the preferred supplier scandal that gets no press, the tens of billions - must be over £40Bn by now - on track and trace that's largely lined the pockets of Tory mates in the glorious new Chumocracy of Brexitain. Well, we got what most of us didn't vote for ... an anglo-British Nationalist, hard right, low tax (except they're having to raise taxes thanks to their pilfering), small state government.
And people say they prefer it. Iesu Mawr. That's why I despair.
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Never thought I'd say anything positive about it but at least some of the Lords are ex-politicians with experience to push back stupid laws...
As to the Royal Family, Price Andrew's £10 million paying for his own significant sins was headline news one day, forgotten the next. I just don't see how there's not massive protests over this. He was a naval officer as his only job right? I doubt that it paid enough money for him to afford £10 million by himself. As such, it is us, the public, who are paying for this. It's unacceptable and other countries would riot over crap like this. |
Indeed. |
Puzzled why she accepted a pay off (not for the first time) instead of bringing him to justice.
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roy munster
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Posted: 18 February 2022 at 1:21am |
SA14 wrote:
totallybiasedscarlet wrote:
dr_martinov wrote:
totallybiasedscarlet wrote:
Yup, add to that the House of Lords, the billions lost on wasted PPE, the preferred supplier scandal that gets no press, the tens of billions - must be over £40Bn by now - on track and trace that's largely lined the pockets of Tory mates in the glorious new Chumocracy of Brexitain. Well, we got what most of us didn't vote for ... an anglo-British Nationalist, hard right, low tax (except they're having to raise taxes thanks to their pilfering), small state government.
And people say they prefer it. Iesu Mawr. That's why I despair.
|
Never thought I'd say anything positive about it but at least some of the Lords are ex-politicians with experience to push back stupid laws...
As to the Royal Family, Price Andrew's £10 million paying for his own significant sins was headline news one day, forgotten the next. I just don't see how there's not massive protests over this. He was a naval officer as his only job right? I doubt that it paid enough money for him to afford £10 million by himself. As such, it is us, the public, who are paying for this. It's unacceptable and other countries would riot over crap like this. |
Indeed. |
Puzzled why she accepted a pay off (not for the first time) instead of bringing him to justice. |
supposedly she agreed if it was all sent to victims charities. However we have no evidence of how much was paid, for what or from where?
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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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dr_martinov
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Posted: 18 February 2022 at 6:44am |
It's disgusting... yet most don't seem to mind. They're parasites.
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GPR - Rochester
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Posted: 18 February 2022 at 7:56am |
RR1972 wrote:
totallybiasedscarlet wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
totallybiasedscarlet wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
totallybiasedscarlet wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
Far too many posters on here who credit the Tories with securing Brexit when they really know deep down that the credit for that was all down to the good ole British people who can always be relied upon to do the right thing.
Do posters really think that baffoon Boris is any different now to when he led the Brexit campaign? Frankly if he had not been involved the margin would have been bigger.
As for opportunities post Brexit - how long have I got........... |
Nah, it was a Tory internal squabble that got pumped into the public domain via the right wing press. 30 years of drip drip anti Europe propaganda fed into the thoughts of people who were suffering the consequences of de-industrialisation followed by neo-Liberalism. Played into the hands of the very political establishment responsible for their being left behind. Played out with a faux patriotism and appeal to a (debatable) bygone "greatness."
The right thing? Not in a million years.
The analysis on Boris, sorry, that's wrong. Johnson has proven his popularity (in England) with a huge win in 2019. Yes, people actually voted for him. I know it's hard to believe but he was a popular figure ... I'm sure you'll recall GPR. Polls suggest differently now ... I would say let's hope they prove correct but the so-called government in waiting has very little to commend them either.
I continue to despair. |
So your response is that Boris has become a baffoon since he became PM and the country have now seen through him- well there you go!!!!!! Don't quite hear the defence of the non elected, twin parliament bureaucracy posing as the united Europe. |
No. That's quite some leap there GPR. Boris is a walking ego on stilts, a populist when it suits his ambition, a known liar and was always ill suited to public office. But he was popular wasn't he. Clearly people were stupid enough to vote for him. Get what you deserve and all that ... except for the majority who didn't vote for him, but hey, the voting system is a debate for another time. And it's strange, but I remember voting in European Parliament elections. I don't agree the pro-Brexit guff about the EU being anti-democratic. We voted to leave didn't we? Nobody stopped us. We live with the consequences. |
Would you like me to list the unelected who preside over the fortunes of many Europeans from either Strasbourg or Brussels; the cost of moving between both centres by the way is £140m per year which really is a bargain don't you think???? |
Ah, the appointments by elected governments. That list?
£140 million. Yeah, not great. What do you think of the £12 Billion to renovate the Palace of Westminster? Money well spent? What do you think of the FPTP election system that delivers a majority of MP's on a minority of the popular vote? But, you know ... that awful EU.
Don't get me wrong, I never thought the EU was perfect or wouldn't benefit from reform but there's far more wrong with the UK and most of the problems we face are the consequence of domestic incompetence.
| we had a referendum on pr we voted to keep the same system we had a referendum on leaving the eu we voted leave. I disagree with both results but they were voted for by the british public. That is democracy for you i’m afraid
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TBS you ask me what I think of certain things above - I think RR has answered for me. I happen to be a fan of proportional representation but here is the key thing - we have a democracy and can & have voted on many issues such as PR & Brexit. I supported both but only won one - thats democracy. I don't recall ever being given a chance to accept the absurd idea of constructing a whole new EU HQ in Strasbourg or the even more insane idea of moving the HQ every year from Brussels to Strasbourg at enormous annual cost.
For sure there are areas where we can all agree that expenditures are absurd within our own democracy but we have the ability to change. I would totally support a change in how parliament works & if the Labour party had any forward thinking it would realise that it should support the idea of PR because, even with an absolute mess of a Tory government, the odds are not great on them winning the next election.
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Posted: 18 February 2022 at 8:44am |
Fair enough GPR but the point is that the accusation that the EU is anti-democratic was a line spun by the likes of Farage. That the examples you give can so easily be met with examples in our own State shows how weak an attack line it always was. Political appointments are everywhere. Did you get to vote on the restoration of Westminster? Do you get to vote on the appointments to the Lords? How about our representatives to the UN? WTO? WHO? I think in the end you answer yourself. Yes there is a need for reform. But Brexit was characterised by absolute hooey and propaganda. Now we have trade barriers to a market with a combined GDP getting on for ten times bigger than the UK's that happens to be on our doorstep ... and for what? So a few so called "patriots" get to feel "great" again? Because Britain is now a paragon of Democracy? Because now British people are so much better off economically?
You're right. We should respect the democratic vote. I'm allright. Financially I won't take an unmanageable hit. But we're already seeing the poorest in society being impacted as Brexit amplifies the challenges hitting the economy. In the meantime the Brexit Tory Party that now constitutes the UK Govt is inflicting their hard right ideology on us all And yes, as you say, Labour don't look close to being ready for government.
Yes I know I'm ranting now but you cannot seperate Brexit from the people behind it and their motives. Hard right, radical libertarian, anglo-Bitish Nationalist ideologues. But you know, that awful EU ...
Back in 2016 on the day of the result, I turned to my wife and said that Britain would rejoin the EU one day ... one Nation at a time. I still think that. It looks like Covid is running out of steam. Expect indy campaigns in Scotland and Wales to start ramping up again. Brexit isn't the endpoint. It is producing a reaction. Where this goes is uncertain and I have my concerns. Hence my backing for a positive proposal for a progressive replacement to the UK. Brexit is a c**k-up ... but it also presents a chance to put a dysfunctional UK out of its' misery.
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Kentexile
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Posted: 18 February 2022 at 8:57am |
Saw a cartoon a few years back it was on a lads 18th birthday his father handed him a piece of paper with 20 or so x’s on it with the words “that is your life time of democracy son”. Thought it rather poiniant.
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GPR - Rochester
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Posted: 18 February 2022 at 8:59am |
totallybiasedscarlet wrote:
Fair enough GPR but the point is that the accusation that the EU is anti-democratic was a line spun by the likes of Farage. That the examples you give can so easily be met with examples in our own State shows how weak an attack line it always was. Political appointments are everywhere. Did you get to vote on the restoration of Westminster? Do you get to vote on the appointments to the Lords? How about our representatives to the UN? WTO? WHO? I think in the end you answer yourself. Yes there is a need for reform. But Brexit was characterised by absolute hooey and propaganda. Now we have trade barriers to a market with a combined GDP getting on for ten times bigger than the UK's that happens to be on our doorstep ... and for what? So a few so called "patriots" get to feel "great" again? Because Britain is now a paragon of Democracy? Because now British people are so much better off economically?
You're right. We should respect the democratic vote. I'm allright. Financially I won't take an unmanageable hit. But we're already seeing the poorest in society being impacted as Brexit amplifies the challenges hitting the economy. In the meantime the Brexit Tory Party that now constitutes the UK Govt is inflicting their hard right ideology on us all And yes, as you say, Labour don't look close to being ready for government.
Yes I know I'm ranting now but you cannot seperate Brexit from the people behind it and their motives. Hard right, radical libertarian, anglo-Bitish Nationalist ideologues. But you know, that awful EU ...
Back in 2016 on the day of the result, I turned to my wife and said that Britain would rejoin the EU one day ... one Nation at a time. I still think that. It looks like Covid is running out of steam. Expect indy campaigns in Scotland and Wales to start ramping up again. Brexit isn't the endpoint. It is producing a reaction. Where this goes is uncertain and I have my concerns. Hence my backing for a positive proposal for a progressive replacement to the UK. Brexit is a c**k-up ... but it also presents a chance to put a dysfunctional UK out of its' misery. |
TBS I respect your views but as you know I disagree. I do not know what the future holds for the EU or the British constitution but I am at peace with my vote for leaving. I am certainly none of the above type of leave supporter & frankly I believe that there were a large number of leave voters who were not hard right, radical libertarian or anglo-British Nationalists. I too believe that the Indy campaigns in both Scotland & Wales will intensify over the coming years. The introduction of a PR style of Westminster Government could derail the full Independence push but change, much needed, could be round the corner.
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Posted: 18 February 2022 at 9:28am |
That's fair enough GPR, we don't have to agree and I wouldn't charactarise all Leave voters in the same way. How many were influenced by 30 years of rhetoric from the press? How many in post-industrial areas who were presented with a scapegoat for their troubles. I stand by what I said about the current government. They are ostensibly a Brexit government. That was the mandate given (by the largest minority). That was the platform on which they stood. We have as PM and various members of the cabinet, senior figures from the leave campaign ... who also happen to be opportunists and ideologues as I outlined above. These people have been enabled by a dysfunctional British political establishment. We have a Labour opposition at pains to portray itself as UK patriots, not Corbynist, not anti-Brexit but not pro-anything really exept for some vague "values" and being "inclusive" ... "umm we're not the Tories, please vote for us."
Starmer squashed a motion to support PR so that won't happen under Labour. Brown is conducting some sort of commission into the constitution. Welsh Labour are doing their own and seem to have a different take. In the meantime Welsh Labour's internal polling show that roughly half of their members and half their voters now favour Welsh independence. This goes a long way towards explaining their shift in policy position, albeit remaining Unionist. Interestingly, Labour HQ recently announced a "non-aggression pact" with the Lib Dems to target seats at the next election. They included Plaid seats in their list. How that will go down with the Welsh Govt who are now running a subset of their policies in agreement with Plaid (these are the policies they had in common and where a super-majority is required), is another matter.
Going forward, Brexit has taken a lump hammer and wedge to constitutional cracks that had already appeared. The Tories think "Muscular Unionism" will save the UK - idiots. Sorry, I've no respect for them. Labour seem to be hellbent on alienating their own Welsh branch.
All of which brings me back to Plaid's policy on the constitution. Form a Confederation of British Nation States. Of all the options on the table, hand on heart, this seems the most sensible way forward. A fantastic opportunity to reform and deliver functional democracies. Not guaranteed. Will take a lot of effort and dilligence. But the best chance of improving our lot. I just think the UK is going through the motions now and we're slipping into a Tory hellvision of a State. I'm eager to get on with the job of building a better alternative. I feel like we're all wasting our time otherwise.
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Posted: 18 February 2022 at 9:36am |
One thing I haven't mentioned is Dafydd Iwan's recent comments https://nation.cymru/news/an-independent-welsh-labour-party-would-be-the-end-of-plaid-cymru-says-dafydd-iwan/
Should Welsh Labour become an independent political party in its' own right could he countenance a Plaid Cymru - Welsh Labour merger ... sure, why not?
Like I said, Brexit is producing all sorts of consequences. There are a lot of changes going on under the surface ... now then, who's up for some dialectics?
Edited by totallybiasedscarlet - 18 February 2022 at 9:39am
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Posted: 18 February 2022 at 11:04pm |
Comment from Heseltine here. "If Boris goes, Brexit goes." Interesting line of thought. I'll mull that one over I think. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/16/panic-boris-johnson-allies-brexit-unravelling-michael-heseltine
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RR1972
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Posted: 18 February 2022 at 11:33pm |
that’s wishful thiking on “tarzans” behalf
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Posted: 18 February 2022 at 11:48pm |
RR1972 wrote:
that’s wishful thiking on “tarzans” behalf |
Dunno. Not sure it's as clear cut as he suggests. But I do wonder if there's some truth in it. Johnson was instrumental in the Tories gaining their majority in 2019. He did it off the back of two big policy promises - "Get Brexit done" and "Levelling up." Now we have a cost of living crisis that's being intensified by the costs of Brexit, with taxes and poverty going up, undermining any notion of "levelling up." On top of that, Johnson and his government have proven themselves craven (Afghanistan), corrupt (Covid contracts), liars (Party gate) and incompetent (where do I start?). The electorate can be pretty unforgiving. Will the electorate begin to feel that they've been led up the garden path and let down?
Maybe. Just maybe ...
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