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Next Conservative leader

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roy munster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 August 2022 at 1:49pm
Energy and the utilities should all be government run imo


ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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salmidach View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote salmidach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 August 2022 at 1:55pm
and transport.. the core infrastructure of a country should ALWAYS be owned by the country.

we subsidise foreign national energy and travel firms.
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance - Terry Pratchett
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SA14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 August 2022 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

FFS I know you come on here to wind things up, but that is either expert trolling or just complete naivety.

we get 3% of our oil and gas from Russia. this is complete profiteering at the highest level. 

these energy companies have massive profits in the billions and where does that money go, into dividends to their share holders, and who are the majory share holders, tory donators...

people WILL be dying this winter, of pneumonia, hypothermia and starvation in the 6th richest country in the world... and what are the tories doing, telling us Macron is a bad guy, telling us it's putin's fault... 

the government has the power to regulate ofgem and stop the increases, they just choose not to.

so don't tar the tories with labour and say labour are a joke and are doing nothing. they can't do ANYTHING as they are not in government ffs. 

That last paragraph is my point. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SA14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 August 2022 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

Originally posted by crj89 crj89 wrote:

Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

Labour saying there’d be no price increase if they were in charge. 😂😂

Similar to what France are doing then? Limited to a 4% rise, long before any increase, costing the French government far more than what a price freeze at this stage would cost. France has one of the lowest rates of inflation in Europe.

It’s just this forum is obviously anti-tory. If the last conservative government was a 100 years ago people would be blaming that. If the next government is Labour and [beep] up the default excuse will be, it’s the last government’s fault. 

But you consistently imply that the anti-Tory views are irrespective of what they do when in Government. I don't think that's the case: they have been in power 30 of the last 43 years and are the ones in power currently. Their policies and political stance have had a big impact on the country. This is not just picking sides where you are blue or red, it is actually the case that one party has been in power for a substantial length of time, over twice as long as t'other, with a political agenda that posters here disagree with. If they agree with the views of the "other side", which is naturally more about supporting public services, then this is not side-ism at all: it is an inherent difference in opinion on what policies are best and disliking Conservative ones.

Would I level the same blame if Labour behaved and did exactly the same as the Conservatives when in charge? Yes, I think so... but I'm sure there is some bias based on my experiences. But my point is that that is unlikely; there are overlaps of course but there are also fundamental differences between the two parties, or at least between what voters want from each of the two parties. It is also harder to level the same criticism at each party when one of them is not even in charge so has almost no power.

People rightly see our system as unfair and just look at the media coverage of all our political parties for where the true bias really is. If Labour had done what the Conservatives had for the last 12 years the press would have destroyed them and the public would have voted them out. 

Expertly put. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Legendinmybathroom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 August 2022 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

But the places we get our oil  and gas from now have loads more people wanting buy from then. It’s supply and demand so they have upped their prices what can any uk govt do about foreign nations and firms upping their costs? Offgen can’t do anything about the price enery providers charge our energy suppliers can they? Not defending the inept torys but this is a global issue. Btw what is the labour led welsh assembly doing about this in wales?

no they can't, but when you are making billions more profits off these sales then something has to give and it will be the lives of people....

Ofgem can stop the rises from happening, they didn't HAVE to allow these prices to rise and neither does the government.
ofgen can’t , they can’t make the energy these firms are oaying for any cheaper so that increased cost is going to get passed on, it is basic economics tbh

OFGEN may not be in the position to make the energy companies stop passing on the increases, but the whole idea of having a regulator is to regulate the amount customers have to pay.  As regulators they could stipulate that the government should step in and cover the rises the energy companies are charging.  They (the government) could then, If they have the gumption to do, go after the energy companies and try and recoup some of their profits via further windfall taxes.
To say that the energy companies have their hands tied with regards to the cost of energy is just incorrect, these energy companies (despite paying more for their energy supplies) are still turning over multi billion pound profits every quarter at the expense of hard working, underpaid British citizens/home/business owners.
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Jones2004 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 August 2022 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by Legendinmybathroom Legendinmybathroom wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

But the places we get our oil  and gas from now have loads more people wanting buy from then. It’s supply and demand so they have upped their prices what can any uk govt do about foreign nations and firms upping their costs? Offgen can’t do anything about the price enery providers charge our energy suppliers can they? Not defending the inept torys but this is a global issue. Btw what is the labour led welsh assembly doing about this in wales?

no they can't, but when you are making billions more profits off these sales then something has to give and it will be the lives of people....

Ofgem can stop the rises from happening, they didn't HAVE to allow these prices to rise and neither does the government.
ofgen can’t , they can’t make the energy these firms are oaying for any cheaper so that increased cost is going to get passed on, it is basic economics tbh

OFGEN may not be in the position to make the energy companies stop passing on the increases, but the whole idea of having a regulator is to regulate the amount customers have to pay.  As regulators they could stipulate that the government should step in and cover the rises the energy companies are charging.  They (the government) could then, If they have the gumption to do, go after the energy companies and try and recoup some of their profits via further windfall taxes.
To say that the energy companies have their hands tied with regards to the cost of energy is just incorrect, these energy companies (despite paying more for their energy supplies) are still turning over multi billion pound profits every quarter at the expense of hard working, underpaid British citizens/home/business owners.
The regulator has no power to tell the government what to do. People also seem to mistake the point of OFGEM. Their job is to regulate the profits of energy RETAILERS, not producers. Considering most energy retailers have gone bust in the last year it’s wrong to argue that the retailers are making massive profits or that OFGEM aren’t regulating their profits (although OFGEM do deserve criticism for other reasons that I won’t go into here). 
The simple problem is that the cost of the energy that households use will have gone from ~£30bn in 2021 to ~£170bn in 2023. Nationalising energy retailers won’t make a blind bit of difference to that simple fact. 
So what can the government do? There’s two things they can do. They can do nothing and allow households to absorb the full £140bn price increase - in which case a lot of people will freeze to death. Or (as is more likely) the government can absorb the majority of the £140bn price increase. They’ll be able to make a bit of that money back through windfall taxes on BP and Shell but they’ll also have to either increase taxes on high earners or massively increase borrowing. And to be clear the French government also have to make these decision - just that freezing prices was quicker and easier for them because EDF are nationalised (although it will cost a bomb if they carry on with only increasing prices by 4% for the next three or four years). 

P.S I do support energy nationalisation I’m just pointing out it’s not a silver bullet and that it would only marginally reduce the cost to government of the current energy crisis. 

PPS. There’s another debate to be had about whether north sea oil and gas should ever have been allowed into private hands or should’ve been run by the government like Norway. That debate also carries on into the present day with the question of whether all these wind turbines and solar panels should be run by the government or by private companies. The problem is that changing what happens with these will make precious little difference to bills in the short term - although they should be run by the government for long term benefit IMO. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2022 at 7:32am
A good summary Jones2004. Of course its the energy producers who should be nationalised & just like France the government will have to face the consequences. Just why precious utilities which are fundamental to our very existence have been allowed to be run for personal gain is completely beyond me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Legendinmybathroom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2022 at 9:40am
Because of the small state Tory party agenda- started under Thatcher and continued by Major etc.  Its been the Tory party mantra since the 80s, let’s sell off all nationalised services for short term gain and let the public pay for it through yearly price hikes for generations to come.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2022 at 11:41am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

A good summary Jones2004. Of course its the energy producers who should be nationalised & just like France the government will have to face the consequences. Just why precious utilities which are fundamental to our very existence have been allowed to be run for personal gain is completely beyond me.
how we can nationalise foreign companys? A lot of our energy is imported isn’t it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2022 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by Legendinmybathroom Legendinmybathroom wrote:

Because of the small state Tory party agenda- started under Thatcher and continued by Major etc.  Its been the Tory party mantra since the 80s, let’s sell off all nationalised services for short term gain and let the public pay for it through yearly price hikes for generations to come.
Let’s not forget Blair also did nothing to renationalise any services. So for 13 years it was not a labour policy. I don’t believe it was a labour policy until Corbyn became leader. 

She asks why i still can't answer. I guess its in the blood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote salmidach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2022 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

Originally posted by Legendinmybathroom Legendinmybathroom wrote:

Because of the small state Tory party agenda- started under Thatcher and continued by Major etc.  Its been the Tory party mantra since the 80s, let’s sell off all nationalised services for short term gain and let the public pay for it through yearly price hikes for generations to come.
Let’s not forget Blair also did nothing to renationalise any services. So for 13 years it was not a labour policy. I don’t believe it was a labour policy until Corbyn became leader. 


Clause IV has ALWAYS been a Labour policy. Labour under blair was tory lite. it wasn't Labour it was the "third way" a very centrist government with a mix of left and right policies. Starmer is a third way prodigy and if he wins we will se the return of the third way and that isn't a bad thing.

Blair brought in a number of fantastic policies and legislation, but you live and die by the sword and he took us into Iraq.
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance - Terry Pratchett
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2022 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

Originally posted by Legendinmybathroom Legendinmybathroom wrote:

Because of the small state Tory party agenda- started under Thatcher and continued by Major etc.  Its been the Tory party mantra since the 80s, let’s sell off all nationalised services for short term gain and let the public pay for it through yearly price hikes for generations to come.
Let’s not forget Blair also did nothing to renationalise any services. So for 13 years it was not a labour policy. I don’t believe it was a labour policy until Corbyn became leader. 

don’t think it’s a labour policy as of now is it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2022 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

Originally posted by Legendinmybathroom Legendinmybathroom wrote:

Because of the small state Tory party agenda- started under Thatcher and continued by Major etc.  Its been the Tory party mantra since the 80s, let’s sell off all nationalised services for short term gain and let the public pay for it through yearly price hikes for generations to come.
Let’s not forget Blair also did nothing to renationalise any services. So for 13 years it was not a labour policy. I don’t believe it was a labour policy until Corbyn became leader. 

don’t think it’s a labour policy as of now is it?

Pretty sure it's not. Starmer took it off the table, saying it was too expensive.

Another interesting aspect of our two party politics: it doesn't swing back and forth to the extent you may expect from two parties with such contrasting views... both parties keep the things they secretly like.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SA14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2022 at 4:04pm
Noticed a lot of Tweets by Labour on how they’d get rid of all these problems. Can’t help but think they’re a total waste of time seeing as there’s a Tory government. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote crj89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2022 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

Noticed a lot of Tweets by Labour on how they’d get rid of all these problems. Can’t help but think they’re a total waste of time seeing as there’s a Tory government. 

Whatever Labour do it seems they can’t win, on one hand there’s people out there who say they haven’t got a plan if they ever got into power, then if they do say something it’s regarded as pointless. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote salmidach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2022 at 8:45am
Clause IV can't be taken off the table. Just not enacted upon. Unlike the UK government, Labour has a written constitution.

Edited by salmidach - 01 September 2022 at 8:46am
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