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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2022 at 7:48am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

He is at a big club big gates good coaching good league and now in a winning side not in a rush to move i guess? Shame he’d be ideal for us

Same with Zammit, leave him where he is - I hate that they have to leave a better league & often better coaching setups to come back to Wales to be allowed to continue their international career. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2022 at 9:51am
Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

He is at a big club big gates good coaching good league and now in a winning side not in a rush to move i guess? Shame he’d be ideal for us

Same with Zammit, leave him where he is - I hate that they have to leave a better league & often better coaching setups to come back to Wales to be allowed to continue their international career. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2022 at 9:59am
In order for us to compete in the URC and Europe, we need as much help as we can get so the « repatriation » of our internationals would be of enormous benefit.

Equally, having better coaches would help and there seems to be less restriction nationality wise on who you have in your off-pitch expertise.

If we produced as many players of quality as, for example, RSA, i wouldn’t be so concerned. Also, if the WRU funded the professional clubs on something much better than the starvation diet it’s grudgingly doled out over the years, again, there’d be less concern.

The 12 day HIA protocol, as others have said, is a counter to smaller pro squads. The coaching team and the Finance Director will be having many an interesting negotiation at all clubs in the coming season as a result.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2022 at 10:46am
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

In order for us to compete in the URC and Europe, we need as much help as we can get so the « repatriation » of our internationals would be of enormous benefit.

Equally, having better coaches would help and there seems to be less restriction nationality wise on who you have in your off-pitch expertise.

If we produced as many players of quality as, for example, RSA, i wouldn’t be so concerned. Also, if the WRU funded the professional clubs on something much better than the starvation diet it’s grudgingly doled out over the years, again, there’d be less concern.

The 12 day HIA protocol, as others have said, is a counter to smaller pro squads. The coaching team and the Finance Director will be having many an interesting negotiation at all clubs in the coming season as a result.

Undoubtedly smaller squads by economic necessity will mean huge challenges going forward. However forcing players to repatriate so they can carry on playing for Wales is neanderthal. In most other professions it would be deemed discriminatory. A cursory glance around the four regional squads & I really wonder would Reffell have become No 1 7 at any of the regions over the past seasons - competition would have been enormous - Tipuric, Morgan, Josh McLoud, Cubby, Navidi, Botham, Ellis Jenkins, Ollie Griffiths, Basham etc. Likewise Aled Davies went from being 2nd/3rd string at both the Scarlets & Ospreys to being one of the stand out scrum halves in the Premiership by being given constant starts. 

The WRU pay lip service to the regions when they state that the 60 cap rule is meant to strengthen regional rugby - the very same regions who are still waiting to hear what sort of ongoing finance they will have available next season and onwards; the very same regions who have had to drastically reduce squad size due to financial constraints. South Africa became World champions by picking the best 31 qualified players regardless of where they play their rugby - pretty hard nosed South African logic which, for me, makes total sense.

Finally a question for those who support the 60 cap rule - could you please explain to me over the years in which it has been active how much improvement we have seen in regional rugby fortunes? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2022 at 10:50am
As a quick follow on from the above before someone throws out that old chestnut of Pivacs " ah but I only have access to them for coaching for 25% of the time". It didn't seem to detract from Tommy Reffell's understanding of the gameplan that he only joined up with the squad after the Premiership final.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2022 at 1:56pm
You make a good point in asking whether Reffell would have developed as much as he has had he been in Wales. Like Josh Adams, sometimes you need to go elsewhere for your ultimate worth to be realised, whether that’s for opportunities to shine and gain experience or merely being under a coaching group where there’s no meeting of minds or quality coaching. 

How would you describe the All Blacks approach to international selection, Gareth?

I do like free trade etc, however, sometimes the scales need to be weighted in your favour as best you can.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2022 at 3:08pm
Him and costello big mates aren’t they?  Without sounding rude leicester is a bit of a hole (in fairness that is rude) hurry home tommy!Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 July 2022 at 7:43am
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

You make a good point in asking whether Reffell would have developed as much as he has had he been in Wales. Like Josh Adams, sometimes you need to go elsewhere for your ultimate worth to be realised, whether that’s for opportunities to shine and gain experience or merely being under a coaching group where there’s no meeting of minds or quality coaching. 

How would you describe the All Blacks approach to international selection, Gareth?

I do like free trade etc, however, sometimes the scales need to be weighted in your favour as best you can.

Good question Steve. The All Blacks are very clever which is what you would expect from them. They allow a number of their players to take up well paid contracts in France or Japan between World cups. In their absence they are able to develop the next generation whilst allowing good servants to fill their pension pots. 

They act from a position of huge strength of course which is not something which can be said of Wales. Similarly England, which has one of the biggest pools of professional players attempt to follow the restrictive model and struggle. Their best No 8 by a country mile at the moment is not allowed to be selected something the AB's would never allow. 

I am still waiting for posters to explain to me how the 60 cap rule has improved regional rugby as from where I am sitting it has deteriorated alarmingly. I can't help wonder if someone like Foxy had been allowed to leave for a mega pay deal how much development we would have seen in Joe Roberts & Cory Baldwin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 July 2022 at 8:12am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

You make a good point in asking whether Reffell would have developed as much as he has had he been in Wales. Like Josh Adams, sometimes you need to go elsewhere for your ultimate worth to be realised, whether that’s for opportunities to shine and gain experience or merely being under a coaching group where there’s no meeting of minds or quality coaching. 

How would you describe the All Blacks approach to international selection, Gareth?

I do like free trade etc, however, sometimes the scales need to be weighted in your favour as best you can.

Good question Steve. The All Blacks are very clever which is what you would expect from them. They allow a number of their players to take up well paid contracts in France or Japan between World cups. In their absence they are able to develop the next generation whilst allowing good servants to fill their pension pots. 

They act from a position of huge strength of course which is not something which can be said of Wales. Similarly England, which has one of the biggest pools of professional players attempt to follow the restrictive model and struggle. Their best No 8 by a country mile at the moment is not allowed to be selected something the AB's would never allow. 

I am still waiting for posters to explain to me how the 60 cap rule has improved regional rugby as from where I am sitting it has deteriorated alarmingly. I can't help wonder if someone like Foxy had been allowed to leave for a mega pay deal how much development we would have seen in Joe Roberts & Cory Baldwin.
Being allowed to leave and play wherever Starname X wants does give other development opportunities/other players more chances. Equally, it reduces the quality of the team that player leaves, assuming he is fully committed to the club.

If we want to win things, we need star players and we had a few in our 2017 triumph and the following year.

The decline in the pro clubs in Wales is more down to the financial starvation rations from the governing body than any effect of the 60 cap rule, IMO.

I agree with you re NZ’s approach and the sabbaticals etc as being far more sensible than Eddingland’s rigidity. After all, Mercer wasn’t even selected in the wider squad before he decided to try pastures new and develop himself on and off the pitch in the excellent environment in which he finds himself now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 July 2022 at 8:32am
Been to montpellier eo? What is like? Good wines? Mercer dad the ex cas rl player? He wAs a handful to

Edited by RR1972 - 09 July 2022 at 8:37am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 July 2022 at 11:12am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

In order for us to compete in the URC and Europe, we need as much help as we can get so the « repatriation » of our internationals would be of enormous benefit.

Equally, having better coaches would help and there seems to be less restriction nationality wise on who you have in your off-pitch expertise.

If we produced as many players of quality as, for example, RSA, i wouldn’t be so concerned. Also, if the WRU funded the professional clubs on something much better than the starvation diet it’s grudgingly doled out over the years, again, there’d be less concern.

The 12 day HIA protocol, as others have said, is a counter to smaller pro squads. The coaching team and the Finance Director will be having many an interesting negotiation at all clubs in the coming season as a result.

Undoubtedly smaller squads by economic necessity will mean huge challenges going forward. However forcing players to repatriate so they can carry on playing for Wales is neanderthal. In most other professions it would be deemed discriminatory. A cursory glance around the four regional squads & I really wonder would Reffell have become No 1 7 at any of the regions over the past seasons - competition would have been enormous - Tipuric, Morgan, Josh McLoud, Cubby, Navidi, Botham, Ellis Jenkins, Ollie Griffiths, Basham etc. Likewise Aled Davies went from being 2nd/3rd string at both the Scarlets & Ospreys to being one of the stand out scrum halves in the Premiership by being given constant starts. 

The WRU pay lip service to the regions when they state that the 60 cap rule is meant to strengthen regional rugby - the very same regions who are still waiting to hear what sort of ongoing finance they will have available next season and onwards; the very same regions who have had to drastically reduce squad size due to financial constraints. South Africa became World champions by picking the best 31 qualified players regardless of where they play their rugby - pretty hard nosed South African logic which, for me, makes total sense.

Finally a question for those who support the 60 cap rule - could you please explain to me over the years in which it has been active how much improvement we have seen in regional rugby fortunes? 

Its not about any of the things you mention- its about availability of players to go to international squad training as and when Pivac wants them- nothing more or less. And if an English club won't release a player when Pivac wants them outside the international window, then it really is quite fair, and not discriminatory, to say to the player- if you're not available for training, you're not getting to play.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 July 2022 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Been to montpellier eo? What is like? Good wines? Mercer dad the ex cas rl player? He wAs a handful to
I’ve not been to Montpellier, yet. We’ve a friend who is a fan. He guided us round Lyon for the European Finals in 2016 and we are still in touch.

There will be good wines there, certainly, whether from the local area or further afield. Sometimes, you just don’t get to see some wines away from their locale. Not enough is produced for sales further afield. A Savoie white we had the other day was terrific and very modestly priced on the restaurant menu.

No idea re Mercer’s dad, though.

Hoping to get to see La Rochelle v Toulon in mid-October. It’s a question of whether we can get tickets….
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Realwest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 July 2022 at 7:08pm
With the budgets of the big French teams and Leinster the regions have little chance of winning the European cup

The more welsh players playing in England the better we just need to negotiate their contracts better for release for international camps.

I feel the only way the Welsh will have any chance of winning the European cup is either stick the international squad at one region (WRU would choose Cardiff) or for a mega rich investor willing to splash the cash.

The current system is beyond broken and with the regions playing in the URC there’s no easy way out 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 July 2022 at 7:55pm
Originally posted by Realwest Realwest wrote:

With the budgets of the big French teams and Leinster the regions have little chance of winning the European cup

The more welsh players playing in England the better we just need to negotiate their contracts better for release for international camps.

I feel the only way the Welsh will have any chance of winning the European cup is either stick the international squad at one region (WRU would choose Cardiff) or for a mega rich investor willing to splash the cash.

The current system is beyond broken and with the regions playing in the URC there’s no easy way out 
I believe the Premiership don’t allow them to do that. It’s an agreement between all the clubs in the league that stops different release etc. 

Remember Northampton being fined for early release of George North multiple times?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2022 at 7:40am
Originally posted by John John wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

In order for us to compete in the URC and Europe, we need as much help as we can get so the « repatriation » of our internationals would be of enormous benefit.

Equally, having better coaches would help and there seems to be less restriction nationality wise on who you have in your off-pitch expertise.

If we produced as many players of quality as, for example, RSA, i wouldn’t be so concerned. Also, if the WRU funded the professional clubs on something much better than the starvation diet it’s grudgingly doled out over the years, again, there’d be less concern.

The 12 day HIA protocol, as others have said, is a counter to smaller pro squads. The coaching team and the Finance Director will be having many an interesting negotiation at all clubs in the coming season as a result.

Undoubtedly smaller squads by economic necessity will mean huge challenges going forward. However forcing players to repatriate so they can carry on playing for Wales is neanderthal. In most other professions it would be deemed discriminatory. A cursory glance around the four regional squads & I really wonder would Reffell have become No 1 7 at any of the regions over the past seasons - competition would have been enormous - Tipuric, Morgan, Josh McLoud, Cubby, Navidi, Botham, Ellis Jenkins, Ollie Griffiths, Basham etc. Likewise Aled Davies went from being 2nd/3rd string at both the Scarlets & Ospreys to being one of the stand out scrum halves in the Premiership by being given constant starts. 

The WRU pay lip service to the regions when they state that the 60 cap rule is meant to strengthen regional rugby - the very same regions who are still waiting to hear what sort of ongoing finance they will have available next season and onwards; the very same regions who have had to drastically reduce squad size due to financial constraints. South Africa became World champions by picking the best 31 qualified players regardless of where they play their rugby - pretty hard nosed South African logic which, for me, makes total sense.

Finally a question for those who support the 60 cap rule - could you please explain to me over the years in which it has been active how much improvement we have seen in regional rugby fortunes? 

Its not about any of the things you mention- its about availability of players to go to international squad training as and when Pivac wants them- nothing more or less. And if an English club won't release a player when Pivac wants them outside the international window, then it really is quite fair, and not discriminatory, to say to the player- if you're not available for training, you're not getting to play.

John I have already dealt with Pivac's red herring of 25% availability for training. He only quotes that when he is put in a hole by journalists asking him awkward questions. The two players in the current Welsh squad who he had the least time to work with for this current trip to South Africa have both been selected for both games and played 80 minutes in each. One of them - Tommy Reffell - has never been in  a Welsh camp before & that lack of training by Pivac hasn't stopped him having two storming games.

Far too much is made of this lack of preparation - you don't have to be at the Vale to get coached or get up to speed with calls/gameplans. The squad is surrounded by analysts, training is filmed and a player on the other side of the World can be kept right up to date with squad preparation. As long as the individual player is professional & responsible enough to look after his conditioning attendance at the Vale is not the be all as Reffell has proved. Your statement " if you're not available for training you're not getting to play" sums up most of what is wrong with our game. English based players are allowed to attend International training during the periods agreed by World rugby. They are not released for the extra week ahead of the 6 nations or the extra game in the Autumn or if they are not involved in the match day 23. 

That arrangement is not very different from what Eddie Jones gets with his squad & the RFU pay the English clubs a serious amount of money for the release of players. We need to stop making excuses why we select one player and not another. Just be honest and pick the best 23 in your opinion regardless of where they play.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2022 at 8:23pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

I bet everyone wants Tommy Reffell now, just glad Tigers have him on a long contract.

I don't think it took Saturday's game for most of us here in Scarletville to rate young Tommy. As a matter of interest how long is his contract. 

25 years.......................................Wink
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