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aber-fan 
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 Topic: Did the ref ask the 'right' question?
Posted: 08 February 2012 at 11:10am |
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On Sunday, Ryan Jones got over the Irish line with the ball. It appeared to touch the ground from one angle. An Irish player probably also had his hands on the ball by then.
The ref asked 'Try - yes or no?'. The TMO decided the evidence was inconclusive, so no try was awarded.
It seemed to me that it was 80% probable that a try had been scored. Why did the ref not ask 'Is there any reason why I can NOT award a try?'. Is there any guidance on which question to ask, or is it at the ref's discretion?
What Q would YOU have asked, refs out there?
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Scargog
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Posted: 08 February 2012 at 11:36am |
The ref normally asks the "is there any reason why I cannot award the try" question when he has seen the ball on the floor, but wants to check if anything happened prior to him seeing the ball grounded. Normally he believes the try has been scored but just wants clarification (as in the Hodgson try in the Scotland England game). In this case Barnes obviously did not see the ball on the floor, so asked if the try was scored. In this case I believe he asked the right question.
You are right in that it was probable the try was scored, however, the referee and in this case the TMO has to be sure before it can be awarded. Unfortunately for Ryan Jones and Wales, neither the Referee, the AR or the TMO actually saw the ball being grounded, so the correct decision was attacking 5m scrum.
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scarletman
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Posted: 08 February 2012 at 12:05pm |
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Very good "defence" by Ireland in making sure all camera angles are hidden from TMO !
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A Evans
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Posted: 08 February 2012 at 12:19pm |
 scarletman wrote:
Very good "defence" by Ireland in making sure all camera angles are hidden from TMO !
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As a matter of inerest why are there 2 different questions the ref can ask, shouldnt it just be one?
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scarletman
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Posted: 08 February 2012 at 3:13pm |
A Evans wrote:
scarletman wrote:
Very good "defence" by Ireland in making sure all camera angles are hidden from TMO !
|
As a matter of inerest why are there 2 different questions the ref can ask, shouldnt it just be one?
|
- "Is it a Try .. Yes or No" ? - Used when the Referee & or Assistant Referees are unsighted, & the Referee believes that the TMO may have an angle that can give a decision either way.
- "Is there any reason why I cannot award a Try" - Used when the Referee has seen the grounding of the ball, but doubt arises whether an an infringement or foul play was instrumental in the Scoring .
The following is an extract form the Referee Comms Guide....................
Television Match
Official Communication Guidelines
3.1 The Referee will blow time out and
make the “time out” T signal.
3.2 The Referee will make a “square
box” signal with his hands and at the same time inform the TMO
through the two way communication that he will require his
advice.
3.3 The Referee will then outline to
the TMO the exact nature of the
problem and the advice required. The
TMO should repeat the
Referee’s request to ensure the
message is correct.
Examples of requests
for advice:
“The maul went over the goal line. I
did not see the ball touch the ground and I did not see which team was in possession could you please advise.”
or
“I am entirely happy with the touch
down, please can you check if the player’s foot was in touch
prior to grounding and please advise.”
or
“I believe that a defender touched
down and I believe I award a 22. Please advise”
“I believe that a try was scored could
you please advise”
“I believe the attacking side grounded
the ball and scored a try unless you tell me otherwise”
3.4 The TMO will then liaise with the
TV Director and look at all available footage in order to gather
enough information in order to provide informed advice.
3.5 The broadcaster must provide all
the angles requested by the TMO.
3.6 When the TMO has concluded his
analysis he will provide the match referee with his advice and
recommendations. The Referee should repeat the TMO’s
recommendation to ensure that he is absolutely satisfied that
he has heard what has been recommended.
3.7 The TMO will then advise the
Referee as to when he may go ahead and signal his decision. (This
process is essential in order to allow time for TV to focus
their cameras on the Referee for his decision).
3.8 The Referee will then communicate
his decision in the correct manner. Play will then continue and
the time clock restarted.
3.9 Where large on-ground video
screens are available the TV Director may also communicate the
decision.
3.10 In the absence of a video screen
some grounds may use Red and Green lights to advise the crowd.
3.11 The important and primary method
of communication still rests firmly with the Referee who will
indicate in the normal way after receiving the TMO’s advice.
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aber-fan
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Posted: 09 February 2012 at 10:09am |
scarletman wrote:
A Evans wrote:
scarletman wrote:
Very good "defence" by Ireland in making sure all camera angles are hidden from TMO !
|
As a matter of inerest why are there 2 different questions the ref can ask, shouldnt it just be one?
|
- "Is it a Try .. Yes or No" ? - Used when the Referee & or Assistant Referees are unsighted, & the Referee believes that the TMO may have an angle that can give a decision either way.
- "Is there any reason why I cannot award a Try" - Used when the Referee has seen the grounding of the ball, but doubt arises whether an an infringement or foul play was instrumental in the Scoring .
The following is an extract form the Referee Comms Guide....................
Television Match
Official Communication Guidelines
3.1 The Referee will blow time out and
make the “time out” T signal.
3.2 The Referee will make a “square
box” signal with his hands and at the same time inform the TMO
through the two way communication that he will require his
advice.
3.3 The Referee will then outline to
the TMO the exact nature of the
problem and the advice required. The
TMO should repeat the
Referee’s request to ensure the
message is correct.
Examples of requests
for advice:
“The maul went over the goal line. I
did not see the ball touch the ground and I did not see which team was in possession could you please advise.”
or
“I am entirely happy with the touch
down, please can you check if the player’s foot was in touch
prior to grounding and please advise.”
or
“I believe that a defender touched
down and I believe I award a 22. Please advise”
“I believe that a try was scored could
you please advise”
“I believe the attacking side grounded
the ball and scored a try unless you tell me otherwise”
3.4 The TMO will then liaise with the
TV Director and look at all available footage in order to gather
enough information in order to provide informed advice.
3.5 The broadcaster must provide all
the angles requested by the TMO.
3.6 When the TMO has concluded his
analysis he will provide the match referee with his advice and
recommendations. The Referee should repeat the TMO’s
recommendation to ensure that he is absolutely satisfied that
he has heard what has been recommended.
3.7 The TMO will then advise the
Referee as to when he may go ahead and signal his decision. (This
process is essential in order to allow time for TV to focus
their cameras on the Referee for his decision).
3.8 The Referee will then communicate
his decision in the correct manner. Play will then continue and
the time clock restarted.
3.9 Where large on-ground video
screens are available the TV Director may also communicate the
decision.
3.10 In the absence of a video screen
some grounds may use Red and Green lights to advise the crowd.
3.11 The important and primary method
of communication still rests firmly with the Referee who will
indicate in the normal way after receiving the TMO’s advice.
|
Scarletman - your brief explanations at the top are much clearer than the long winded and confusing official 'examples' - thanks for those! An anecdote you may not have heard - a long time ago when the Lions were playing SA (and the ref was a Saffer, no TMO, no help from assistant refs), a Lions player crossed the line and touched down. As he did so, the ref turned his back and disallowed the try as 'I didn't see it being scored'!. As far as I know, this really happened... 
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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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scarletman
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Married with Kids - Close to Bankruptcy
Joined: 18 August 2004
Location: Heol-y-Cyw
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Posted: 09 February 2012 at 10:46am |
aber-fan wrote:
scarletman wrote:
A Evans wrote:
scarletman wrote:
Very good "defence" by Ireland in making sure all camera angles are hidden from TMO !
|
As a matter of inerest why are there 2 different questions the ref can ask, shouldnt it just be one?
|
- "Is it a Try .. Yes or No" ? - Used when the Referee & or Assistant Referees are unsighted, & the Referee believes that the TMO may have an angle that can give a decision either way.
- "Is there any reason why I cannot award a Try" - Used when the Referee has seen the grounding of the ball, but doubt arises whether an an infringement or foul play was instrumental in the Scoring .
The following is an extract form the Referee Comms Guide....................
Television Match
Official Communication Guidelines
3.1 The Referee will blow time out and
make the “time out” T signal.
3.2 The Referee will make a “square
box” signal with his hands and at the same time inform the TMO
through the two way communication that he will require his
advice.
3.3 The Referee will then outline to
the TMO the exact nature of the
problem and the advice required. The
TMO should repeat the
Referee’s request to ensure the
message is correct.
Examples of requests
for advice:
“The maul went over the goal line. I
did not see the ball touch the ground and I did not see which team was in possession could you please advise.”
or
“I am entirely happy with the touch
down, please can you check if the player’s foot was in touch
prior to grounding and please advise.”
or
“I believe that a defender touched
down and I believe I award a 22. Please advise”
“I believe that a try was scored could
you please advise”
“I believe the attacking side grounded
the ball and scored a try unless you tell me otherwise”
3.4 The TMO will then liaise with the
TV Director and look at all available footage in order to gather
enough information in order to provide informed advice.
3.5 The broadcaster must provide all
the angles requested by the TMO.
3.6 When the TMO has concluded his
analysis he will provide the match referee with his advice and
recommendations. The Referee should repeat the TMO’s
recommendation to ensure that he is absolutely satisfied that
he has heard what has been recommended.
3.7 The TMO will then advise the
Referee as to when he may go ahead and signal his decision. (This
process is essential in order to allow time for TV to focus
their cameras on the Referee for his decision).
3.8 The Referee will then communicate
his decision in the correct manner. Play will then continue and
the time clock restarted.
3.9 Where large on-ground video
screens are available the TV Director may also communicate the
decision.
3.10 In the absence of a video screen
some grounds may use Red and Green lights to advise the crowd.
3.11 The important and primary method
of communication still rests firmly with the Referee who will
indicate in the normal way after receiving the TMO’s advice.
|
Scarletman - your brief explanations at the top are much clearer than the long winded and confusing official 'examples' - thanks for those!
An anecdote you may not have heard - a long time ago when the Lions were playing SA (and the ref was a Saffer, no TMO, no help from assistant refs), a Lions player crossed the line and touched down. As he did so, the ref turned his back and disallowed the try as 'I didn't see it being scored'!.
As far as I know, this really happened...
|
Myth !  
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Herman Tours ... Still the best way to travel !
|
|
TonduTurk
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Location: Wales
Status: Offline
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Posted: 09 February 2012 at 12:34pm |
scarletman wrote:
aber-fan wrote:
scarletman wrote:
A Evans wrote:
scarletman wrote:
Very good "defence" by Ireland in making sure all camera angles are hidden from TMO !
|
As a matter of inerest why are there 2 different questions the ref can ask, shouldnt it just be one?
|
- "Is it a Try .. Yes or No" ? - Used when the Referee & or Assistant Referees are unsighted, & the Referee believes that the TMO may have an angle that can give a decision either way.
- "Is there any reason why I cannot award a Try" - Used when the Referee has seen the grounding of the ball, but doubt arises whether an an infringement or foul play was instrumental in the Scoring .
The following is an extract form the Referee Comms Guide.................... <!--if gte mso 9>
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<p ="msonormal"="" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height: normal;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Television Match
Official Communication Guidelines</span>
<p ="msonormal"="" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height: normal;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">3.1 The Referee will blow time out and
make the “time out” T signal.</span>
<p ="msonormal"="" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height: normal;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">3.2 The Referee will make a “square
box” signal with his hands and at the same time inform the TMO
through the two way communication that he will require his
advice.</span>
<p ="msonormal"="" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height: normal;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">3.3 The Referee will then outline to
the TMO the exact nature of the</span>
<p ="msonormal"="" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height: normal;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">problem and the advice required. The
TMO should repeat the</span>
<p ="msonormal"="" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height: normal;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Referee’s request to ensure the
message is correct.</span>
<p ="msonormal"="" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height: normal;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Examples of requests
for advice:</span>
<p ="msonormal"="" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height: normal;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">“The maul went over the goal line. I
did not see the ball touch the ground and I did not see which team was in possession could you please advise.”</span>
<p ="msonormal"="" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height: normal;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">or</span>
<p ="msonormal"="" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height: normal;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">“I am entirely happy with the touch
down, please can you check if the player’s foot was in touch
prior to grounding and please advise.”</span>
<p ="msonormal"="" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height: normal;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">or</span>
<p ="msonormal"="" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height: normal;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">“I believe that a defender touched
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<p ="msonormal"="" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height: normal;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">“I believe that a try was scored could
you please advise”</span>
<p ="msonormal"="" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height: normal;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">“I believe the attacking side grounded
the ball and scored a try unless you tell me otherwise”</span>
<p ="msonormal"="" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height: normal;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">3.4 The TMO will then liaise with the
TV Director and look at all available footage in order to gather
enough information in order to provide informed advice.</span>
<p ="msonormal"="" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height: normal;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">3.5 The broadcaster must provide all
the angles requested by the TMO.</span>
<p ="msonormal"="" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height: normal;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">3.6 When the TMO has concluded his
analysis he will provide the match referee with his advice and
recommendations. The Referee should repeat the TMO’s
recommendation to ensure that he is absolutely satisfied that
he has heard what has been recommended.</span>
<p ="msonormal"="" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height: normal;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">3.7 The TMO will then advise the
Referee as to when he may go ahead and signal his decision. (This
process is essential in order to allow time for TV to focus
their cameras on the Referee for his decision).</span>
<p ="msonormal"="" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height: normal;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">3.8 The Referee will then communicate
his decision in the correct manner. Play will then continue and
the time clock restarted.</span>
<p ="msonormal"="" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height: normal;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">3.9 Where large on-ground video
screens are available the TV Director may also communicate the
decision.</span><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
3.10 In the absence of a video screen
some grounds may use Red and Green lights to advise the crowd.</span>
<p ="msonormal"="" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height: normal;mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">3.11 The important and primary method
of communication still rests firmly with the Referee who will
indicate in the normal way after receiving the TMO’s advice.</span>
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Scarletman - your brief explanations at the top are much clearer than the long winded and confusing official 'examples' - thanks for those!
An anecdote you may not have heard - a long time ago when the Lions were playing SA (and the ref was a Saffer, no TMO, no help from assistant refs), a Lions player crossed the line and touched down. As he did so, the ref turned his back and disallowed the try as 'I didn't see it being scored'!.
As far as I know, this really happened...
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Myth !
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all 4 test matches in '74 had saffer refs mate.
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scarletman
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Posted: 09 February 2012 at 1:25pm |
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Herman Tours ... Still the best way to travel !
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aber-fan
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Posted: 10 February 2012 at 2:06pm |
This is the 'try' I was thinking of - quote from an article about Lions and Ireland flanker Fergus Slattery: "From there he moved on to South Africa with the all-conquering 1974
Lions, this time becoming a key member of the most feared pack the Lions
have ever fielded.
The Springboks were swamped 3-0 in the four-game series, with the last match being drawn.
That was the only game the Lions didnt win and Slattery scored six
tries in 12 outings. And there could so easily have been a seventh,
crucial try in the fourth and final Test at Ellis Park as the Lions
drove over the line. Slattery appeared to get the ball down for a try
that would have broken the deadlock at 13-13, but South African referee
Max Baise didnt award it.
The referee is always right even if hes wrong, said Slattery. But
I dont think that was the reason why we didnt win that final Test."
I think Slattery is being 'tactful' here.
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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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BrummieScarlet
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Posted: 10 February 2012 at 4:32pm |
aber-fan wrote:
This is the 'try' I was thinking of - quote from an article about Lions and Ireland flanker Fergus Slattery:
"From there he moved on to South Africa with the all-conquering 1974
Lions, this time becoming a key member of the most feared pack the Lions
have ever fielded.
The Springboks were swamped 3-0 in the four-game series, with the last match being drawn.
That was the only game the Lions didnt win and Slattery scored six
tries in 12 outings. And there could so easily have been a seventh,
crucial try in the fourth and final Test at Ellis Park as the Lions
drove over the line. Slattery appeared to get the ball down for a try
that would have broken the deadlock at 13-13, but South African referee
Max Baise didnt award it.
The referee is always right even if hes wrong, said Slattery. But
I dont think that was the reason why we didnt win that final Test."
I think Slattery is being 'tactful' here.
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I remember hearing a supposed quote from that ref saying "Its alright for them (Lions) they're going home in a few days - I've got to live here"!!!
Edited by BrummieScarlet - 10 February 2012 at 4:32pm
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TonduTurk
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Posted: 10 February 2012 at 5:35pm |
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i think it was in phil bennett's autobiography that he said that an s.a. ref (when ref'ing a lions game in s.a.) stopped gareth edwards putting the ball into a scrum by saying "oh, its OUR put-in".
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scarletman
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Posted: 11 February 2012 at 8:46am |
TonduTurk wrote:
i think it was in phil bennett's autobiography that he said that an s.a. ref (when ref'ing a lions game in s.a.) stopped gareth edwards putting the ball into a scrum by saying "oh, its OUR put-in". |
Yes it was ... Nigel talking in Welsh to Welsh speakers pales into insignificance when you compare the two incidents !
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Herman Tours ... Still the best way to travel !
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ap sior
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Posted: 11 February 2012 at 10:11pm |
TonduTurk wrote:
i think it was in phil bennett's autobiography that he said that an s.a. ref (when ref'ing a lions game in s.a.) stopped gareth edwards putting the ball into a scrum by saying "oh, its OUR put-in". |
Didn't Steve Walsh the AB ref say something similar on the last Lions Tour to NZ ?
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