Refs: Very simple question.... |
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KID A
Moderator Group Joined: 16 August 2004 Location: Cardiff Status: Offline Points: 27572 |
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Posted: 22 December 2013 at 9:40am |
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In a ruck........Is the ball playable, once the scrum half has his hands on it?
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scarletman
Veteran Married with Kids - Close to Bankruptcy Joined: 18 August 2004 Location: Heol-y-Cyw Status: Offline Points: 12299 |
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There are a number of opinions .. mine is as follows.
if both hands are on the ball in a way that the opposition believe that the ball is going to be played then the ball is out ! This is something I include in my pre match briefing. Other referees have different interpretations. |
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haydn_davies
Veteran Joined: 10 April 2009 Location: Llanelli Status: Offline Points: 17955 |
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IMO, if the scrum half has two hands on the ball then the ball technically isn't in the ruck/maul and the ball is out.
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Think, think, think - it's a thinking man's game!! - The Great Carwyn James.
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RR1972
Veteran Joined: 27 April 2009 Status: Online Points: 18272 |
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what if he has two hands on the ball but is reaching into the ruck / maul to get it? I'd say it's two hands when the ball is past the back foot of the ruck or when it's in his two hands and he is in a passing motion It is a subjective call, you will always get refs that view different laws in a different manner I'm afraid. That's the nature of rugby
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dr_martinov
Veteran Joined: 06 August 2005 Location: Tycoch Status: Offline Points: 13286 |
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Not having a go, but this is why the whole bloody sport is so frustrating. It really shouldn't be about opinions and interpretations! More specifically in this case, why not make it simpler and say "if the SH has both hands on the ball, it is playable", without add-ons such as "in a way to make the opposition believe the ball is going to be played", which just adds ambiguity to things?
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dr_martinov
Veteran Joined: 06 August 2005 Location: Tycoch Status: Offline Points: 13286 |
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Well so what? The SH is the only one allowed to play the ball so this is independent of where it is in the ruck isn't it? If he is reaching into the ruck then so be it - this is then rewarding better ball placement for quick ball. And if the ball is past the back foot it is also technically out as well. So I agree with Hadyn that two hands = ball out and thus is playable.
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gnasher1975
Veteran Joined: 20 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2083 |
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If the player was standing in touch with 2 hands on the ball in field it would be a linout wouldn't it.
So if a player is standing outside a ruck with 2 hands on the ball stands to reason the ball would be outside of the ruck.ie the player in control/possesion of the ball is not part of the ruck. |
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RR1972
Veteran Joined: 27 April 2009 Status: Online Points: 18272 |
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sometimes the player has to dig the ball out of the ruck though, if a player puts both hands on the ball to free it from the ruck , howevet the ball is still in the ruck and he is then tackled by the opposition that is a penalty imo
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gnasher1975
Veteran Joined: 20 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2083 |
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I see what your sayong but usually its a foot that frees a ball from the ruck
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scarletman
Veteran Married with Kids - Close to Bankruptcy Joined: 18 August 2004 Location: Heol-y-Cyw Status: Offline Points: 12299 |
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Question ...
how do you "legally" release the ball from a ruck with your hands ? |
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RR1972
Veteran Joined: 27 April 2009 Status: Online Points: 18272 |
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when the player places the ball on the floor, you reach in and pull it out and pass it? I agree you mainly use your feet to get hands or a body away, but you often see the scrum half have to go in there and "dig" the ball out Basically the refs need to use common sense, the best ones do. Rugby laws are very open to interpretation
Edited by RR1972 - 22 December 2013 at 1:28pm |
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haydn_davies
Veteran Joined: 10 April 2009 Location: Llanelli Status: Offline Points: 17955 |
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Scenario:-
Ball is in the ruck - not at the back but a bit further in so that the SH has to reach in to get it. To waste a bit of time, the SH reaches in to get the ball out, but pauses for a few seconds with his hands on the ball. Is he or isn't he fair game to be taken out by an opponent coming in from outside of the ruck? |
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Think, think, think - it's a thinking man's game!! - The Great Carwyn James.
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KID A
Moderator Group Joined: 16 August 2004 Location: Cardiff Status: Offline Points: 27572 |
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According to the laws no. The ball has to be out of the ruck. This is why I asked. We constantly see the likes of Jake ball get pinged for pressing too early, yet Nigel Owens rigidly officiates with the ball in hand = ball playable mindset, even though that isn't strictly the law. The players must be totally confused. |
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RR1972
Veteran Joined: 27 April 2009 Status: Online Points: 18272 |
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players should do video analysis on refs as well as the opposition, they are full time now and should know how each ref operates. The old adage is still true, play the ref and not the rules
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Alun
Veteran Joined: 20 March 2005 Location: Ar lan y mor Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
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Yes.
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Cartref newydd, Stadiwm newydd, Penod newydd, Yr un freuddwyd.
"Does na unman yn debyg i adra, ond mae adra'n debyg iawn i 'chdi." All statements-My opinions |
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scarletman
Veteran Married with Kids - Close to Bankruptcy Joined: 18 August 2004 Location: Heol-y-Cyw Status: Offline Points: 12299 |
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So Law 16:4b doesn't then apply ? 16.4 Other ruck offences (b) Players must not handle the ball in a ruck except after a tackle if they are on their feet and have their hands on the ball before the ruck is formed. |
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