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Refs: Very simple question....

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KID A View Drop Down
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    Posted: 22 December 2013 at 9:40am
In a ruck........Is the ball playable, once the scrum half has his hands on it?

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scarletman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 December 2013 at 10:34am
There are a number of opinions .. mine is as follows.
if both hands are on the ball in a way that the opposition believe that the ball is going to be played then the ball is out !
This is something I include in my pre match briefing.
Other referees have different interpretations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haydn_davies Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 December 2013 at 10:40am
IMO, if the scrum half has two hands on the ball then the ball technically isn't in the ruck/maul and the ball is out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 December 2013 at 10:59am
Originally posted by haydn_davies haydn_davies wrote:

IMO, if the scrum half has two hands on the ball then the ball technically isn't in the ruck/maul and the ball is out.

what if he has two hands on the ball but is reaching into the ruck  / maul to get it?

I'd say it's two hands when the ball is past the back foot of the ruck or when it's in his two hands and he is in a passing motion

It is a subjective call, you will always get refs that view different laws in a different manner I'm afraid.

That's the nature of rugby
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 December 2013 at 11:36am
Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

There are a number of opinions .. mine is as follows.
if both hands are on the ball in a way that the opposition believe that the ball is going to be played then the ball is out !
This is something I include in my pre match briefing.
Other referees have different interpretations.

Not having a go, but this is why the whole bloody sport is so frustrating. It really shouldn't be about opinions and interpretations!

More specifically in this case, why not make it simpler and say "if the SH has both hands on the ball, it is playable", without add-ons such as "in a way to make the opposition believe the ball is going to be played", which just adds ambiguity to things?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 December 2013 at 11:39am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by haydn_davies haydn_davies wrote:

IMO, if the scrum half has two hands on the ball then the ball technically isn't in the ruck/maul and the ball is out.

what if he has two hands on the ball but is reaching into the ruck  / maul to get it?

I'd say it's two hands when the ball is past the back foot of the ruck or when it's in his two hands and he is in a passing motion

It is a subjective call, you will always get refs that view different laws in a different manner I'm afraid.

That's the nature of rugby

Well so what? The SH is the only one allowed to play the ball so this is independent of where it is in the ruck isn't it? If he is reaching into the ruck then so be it - this is then rewarding better ball placement for quick ball.

And if the ball is past the back foot it is also technically out as well.

So I agree with Hadyn that two hands = ball out and thus is playable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gnasher1975 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 December 2013 at 12:07pm
If the player was standing in touch with 2 hands on the ball in field it would be a linout wouldn't it.

So if a player is standing outside a ruck with 2 hands on the ball stands to reason the ball would be outside of the ruck.ie the player in control/possesion of the ball is not part of the ruck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 December 2013 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by gnasher1975 gnasher1975 wrote:

If the player was standing in touch with 2 hands on the ball in field it would be a linout wouldn't it.

So if a player is standing outside a ruck with 2 hands on the ball stands to reason the ball would be outside of the ruck.ie the player in control/possesion of the ball is not part of the ruck.

sometimes the player has to dig the ball out of the ruck though, if a player puts both hands on the ball to free it from the ruck , howevet the ball is still in the ruck and  he is then tackled by the opposition that is a penalty imo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote gnasher1975 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 December 2013 at 12:34pm
I see what your sayong but usually its a foot that frees a ball from the ruck
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 December 2013 at 12:56pm
Question ...
how do you "legally" release the ball from a ruck with your hands ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 December 2013 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Question ...
how do you "legally" release the ball from a ruck with your hands ?

when the player places the ball on the floor, you reach in and pull it out and pass it?

I agree you mainly use your feet to get hands or a body away, but you often see the scrum half have to go in there and "dig" the ball out

Basically the refs need to use common sense, the best ones do.

Rugby laws are very open to interpretation


Edited by RR1972 - 22 December 2013 at 1:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haydn_davies Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 December 2013 at 1:41pm
Scenario:-

Ball is in the ruck - not at the back but a bit further in so that the SH has to reach in to get it. To waste a bit of time, the SH reaches in to get the ball out, but pauses for a few seconds with his hands on the ball.

Is he or isn't he fair game to be taken out by an opponent coming in from outside of the ruck?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 December 2013 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by haydn_davies haydn_davies wrote:

Scenario:-

Ball is in the ruck - not at the back but a bit further in so that the SH has to reach in to get it. To waste a bit of time, the SH reaches in to get the ball out, but pauses for a few seconds with his hands on the ball.

Is he or isn't he fair game to be taken out by an opponent coming in from outside of the ruck?


According to the laws no. The ball has to be out of the ruck. This is why I asked. We constantly see the likes of Jake ball get pinged for pressing too early, yet Nigel Owens rigidly officiates with the ball in hand = ball playable mindset, even though that isn't strictly the law. The players must be totally confused.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 December 2013 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by haydn_davies haydn_davies wrote:

Scenario:-

Ball is in the ruck - not at the back but a bit further in so that the SH has to reach in to get it. To waste a bit of time, the SH reaches in to get the ball out, but pauses for a few seconds with his hands on the ball.

Is he or isn't he fair game to be taken out by an opponent coming in from outside of the ruck?


According to the laws no. The ball has to be out of the ruck. This is why I asked. We constantly see the likes of Jake ball get pinged for pressing too early, yet Nigel Owens rigidly officiates with the ball in hand = ball playable mindset, even though that isn't strictly the law. The players must be totally confused.


players should do video analysis on refs as well as the opposition, they are full time now and should know how each ref operates.

The old adage is still true, play the ref and not the rules
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 December 2013 at 8:14pm
Yes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 December 2013 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Originally posted by scarletman scarletman wrote:

Question ...
how do you "legally" release the ball from a ruck with your hands ?

when the player places the ball on the floor, you reach in and pull it out and pass it?

I agree you mainly use your feet to get hands or a body away, but you often see the scrum half have to go in there and "dig" the ball out

Basically the refs need to use common sense, the best ones do.

Rugby laws are very open to interpretation


So Law 16:4b doesn't then apply ?

16.4 Other ruck offences

(b)

Players must not handle the ball in a ruck except after a tackle if they are on their feet and have their hands on the ball before the ruck is formed.



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