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GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 April 2023 at 1:51pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Don't think there are any respected analysts of Brexit now trying to say that Brexit is a success. All are saying we are worse off.

A third of leave voters now dubbed 'Bregreters' think it was a mistake to leave the EU. If people had only been correctly informed, think what this would have done to the vote in 2016.  It would have resulted in a whopping 65% Remain to 35% leave.

We have to move on as others are saying but for me, moving on means raising the level of political debate in this country out of the gutter so that we have a democracy that actually works for all, not just the few who have no doubt benefited at the expense of the many who are losing out.


Two things spring to mind Rob - the 65% - 35% whopper you state is in fact a poll is it not? 4 weeks before the Brexit vote the polls showed 60-40 in favour of remain. 

Welcome to this debate by the way. Much has been made over countless pages since Brexit of leavers not having been correctly informed. I am fascinated by what these facts are - I based my decision on a set of facts that are as relevant today as they were then so I would be very interested in what you mean. By the way please don't mention the bloody bus again. LOL
I told myslelf I would just post one post in this thread GPR but here I am breaking my own promise to myself. Smile  These Brexit threads are like the Hotel Calafornia - you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

To answer your question, I think the main fact that people are disgruntled about is that they were all told that things would be better after Brexit but in fact they are worse. 

I love that Hotel California comment Rob. I can totally see that we are worse off now generally than we were before Brexit - I get it. My explanation though would place the reasons at the door of the pandemic, fuel crisis and shambolic governance rather than leaving the EU. 

At the time of leaving even with a steady tide it was going to take  a number of years before the financial benefits would show through to GDP; the actual choppy waters have, of course, lengthened that timescale considerably. If I had had a crystal ball which would have predicted the above circumstances I think I would have probably chosen to vote for steady as she goes rather than leave in all honesty.

Well, Hallelujah!

I never thought I'd live long enough to read those words. 

Although you blame the downturn in the UK's economy on other factors, IMHO Brexit was a major contributor to how badly things have gone (I know those other factors played a not insignificant part too). The best way to judge that is to compare the UK economy with those of the larger EU countries - the UK has done significantly worse, even though Germany (for example) is far more dependent on Russian gas and oil than the UK.

I wouldn't celebrate too much Aber - I did say if I had a crystal ball. Every major economy in the world bar none suffered severely as a result of covid. The basic reasons why I voted leave are as pertinent today as back then & I would vote exactly the same way if there is another vote with one proviso - that we have a functioning, honest government who are all aligned behind the policy. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 April 2023 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

On the passport control hoohah at Dover last weekend, just wait to when the ETIAS system is introduced.

It requires every passenger to get out of their vehicle and give fingerprints and be photographed. There’s a fee, of course. Can’t remember the exact details as its introduction has been postponed twice, maybe more.

iirc, the ETIAS last for 3 years. However, the havoc it will create when folk are getting them for the first time at the point of departure will be far worse than we’ve seen recently.

It’s great putting advance passenger info on the sites that allow/require this. If only something like that can be done for this then it would be great. However, how can you be sure to get the right fingerprints etc other than by a personal appearance somewhere?

The current visa system requires all applicants to turn up at Wandsworth, Manchester or Edinburgh with lots of info and proofs of various things - place to stay, health cover (a GHIC card) and adequate finances. Those are for visas of 6 months or 12 and other visas for studying or working off different lengths.

No politicians would remind those in the queues that its what they voted for. 

With respect to delays at passport control - two stories from personal experience:

1. Coaches - my wife used to take groups of up to 50 kids to France on exchange visits. She had to gather all this information about the pupils - their names and addresses, parents, passport numbers etc - and all of this info was put on two sheets of paper and presented at passport control along with the passports - which were not even looked at, usually. The process took around 10 minutes for the two documents to be stamped. Now, every single passport must be looked at and stamped individually - I have seen a time of around 2h quoted per coach, which seems realistic.

2. Coming off the ferry on Sunday morning, we had to spend 2h to clear immigration instead of the maximum of 45min in the past - each passport had to be scanned and stamped. 

Great, innit?
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 April 2023 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Don't think there are any respected analysts of Brexit now trying to say that Brexit is a success. All are saying we are worse off.

A third of leave voters now dubbed 'Bregreters' think it was a mistake to leave the EU. If people had only been correctly informed, think what this would have done to the vote in 2016.  It would have resulted in a whopping 65% Remain to 35% leave.

We have to move on as others are saying but for me, moving on means raising the level of political debate in this country out of the gutter so that we have a democracy that actually works for all, not just the few who have no doubt benefited at the expense of the many who are losing out.


Two things spring to mind Rob - the 65% - 35% whopper you state is in fact a poll is it not? 4 weeks before the Brexit vote the polls showed 60-40 in favour of remain. 

Welcome to this debate by the way. Much has been made over countless pages since Brexit of leavers not having been correctly informed. I am fascinated by what these facts are - I based my decision on a set of facts that are as relevant today as they were then so I would be very interested in what you mean. By the way please don't mention the bloody bus again. LOL
I told myslelf I would just post one post in this thread GPR but here I am breaking my own promise to myself. Smile  These Brexit threads are like the Hotel Calafornia - you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

To answer your question, I think the main fact that people are disgruntled about is that they were all told that things would be better after Brexit but in fact they are worse. 

I love that Hotel California comment Rob. I can totally see that we are worse off now generally than we were before Brexit - I get it. My explanation though would place the reasons at the door of the pandemic, fuel crisis and shambolic governance rather than leaving the EU. 

At the time of leaving even with a steady tide it was going to take  a number of years before the financial benefits would show through to GDP; the actual choppy waters have, of course, lengthened that timescale considerably. If I had had a crystal ball which would have predicted the above circumstances I think I would have probably chosen to vote for steady as she goes rather than leave in all honesty.

Well, Hallelujah!

I never thought I'd live long enough to read those words. 

Although you blame the downturn in the UK's economy on other factors, IMHO Brexit was a major contributor to how badly things have gone (I know those other factors played a not insignificant part too). The best way to judge that is to compare the UK economy with those of the larger EU countries - the UK has done significantly worse, even though Germany (for example) is far more dependent on Russian gas and oil than the UK.

I wouldn't celebrate too much Aber - I did say if I had a crystal ball. Every major economy in the world bar none suffered severely as a result of covid. The basic reasons why I voted leave are as pertinent today as back then & I would vote exactly the same way if there is another vote with one proviso - that we have a functioning, honest government who are all aligned behind the policy. 


... but every major economy in the world has recovered faster and better than the UK.

Your explanation?

A weaker than expected recovery from the coronavirus pandemic has left the UK as the only G7 country with a smaller economy than in early 2020, according to official figures
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/30/uk-is-only-g7-country-with-smaller-economy-than-before-covid-19

The UK's recovery from the damage caused by the Covid pandemic lagged behind other big economies in the first three months of 2021.

Economic output was 8.7% below pre-pandemic levels at the end of 2019, said the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57427997


(The figures show the UK BOTTOM of the G20 countries in terms of its recovery. No coincidence - IMHO.)

“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 April 2023 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Don't think there are any respected analysts of Brexit now trying to say that Brexit is a success. All are saying we are worse off.

A third of leave voters now dubbed 'Bregreters' think it was a mistake to leave the EU. If people had only been correctly informed, think what this would have done to the vote in 2016.  It would have resulted in a whopping 65% Remain to 35% leave.

We have to move on as others are saying but for me, moving on means raising the level of political debate in this country out of the gutter so that we have a democracy that actually works for all, not just the few who have no doubt benefited at the expense of the many who are losing out.


Two things spring to mind Rob - the 65% - 35% whopper you state is in fact a poll is it not? 4 weeks before the Brexit vote the polls showed 60-40 in favour of remain. 

Welcome to this debate by the way. Much has been made over countless pages since Brexit of leavers not having been correctly informed. I am fascinated by what these facts are - I based my decision on a set of facts that are as relevant today as they were then so I would be very interested in what you mean. By the way please don't mention the bloody bus again. LOL
I told myslelf I would just post one post in this thread GPR but here I am breaking my own promise to myself. Smile  These Brexit threads are like the Hotel Calafornia - you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

To answer your question, I think the main fact that people are disgruntled about is that they were all told that things would be better after Brexit but in fact they are worse. 

I love that Hotel California comment Rob. I can totally see that we are worse off now generally than we were before Brexit - I get it. My explanation though would place the reasons at the door of the pandemic, fuel crisis and shambolic governance rather than leaving the EU. 

At the time of leaving even with a steady tide it was going to take  a number of years before the financial benefits would show through to GDP; the actual choppy waters have, of course, lengthened that timescale considerably. If I had had a crystal ball which would have predicted the above circumstances I think I would have probably chosen to vote for steady as she goes rather than leave in all honesty.

Well, Hallelujah!

I never thought I'd live long enough to read those words. 

Although you blame the downturn in the UK's economy on other factors, IMHO Brexit was a major contributor to how badly things have gone (I know those other factors played a not insignificant part too). The best way to judge that is to compare the UK economy with those of the larger EU countries - the UK has done significantly worse, even though Germany (for example) is far more dependent on Russian gas and oil than the UK.

I wouldn't celebrate too much Aber - I did say if I had a crystal ball. Every major economy in the world bar none suffered severely as a result of covid. The basic reasons why I voted leave are as pertinent today as back then & I would vote exactly the same way if there is another vote with one proviso - that we have a functioning, honest government who are all aligned behind the policy. 


... but every major economy in the world has recovered faster and better than the UK.

Your explanation?

A weaker than expected recovery from the coronavirus pandemic has left the UK as the only G7 country with a smaller economy than in early 2020, according to official figures
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/30/uk-is-only-g7-country-with-smaller-economy-than-before-covid-19

The UK's recovery from the damage caused by the Covid pandemic lagged behind other big economies in the first three months of 2021.

Economic output was 8.7% below pre-pandemic levels at the end of 2019, said the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57427997


(The figures show the UK BOTTOM of the G20 countries in terms of its recovery. No coincidence - IMHO.)


My explanation - two simple words - poor governance. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 April 2023 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

On the passport control hoohah at Dover last weekend, just wait to when the ETIAS system is introduced.

It requires every passenger to get out of their vehicle and give fingerprints and be photographed. There’s a fee, of course. Can’t remember the exact details as its introduction has been postponed twice, maybe more.

iirc, the ETIAS last for 3 years. However, the havoc it will create when folk are getting them for the first time at the point of departure will be far worse than we’ve seen recently.

It’s great putting advance passenger info on the sites that allow/require this. If only something like that can be done for this then it would be great. However, how can you be sure to get the right fingerprints etc other than by a personal appearance somewhere?

The current visa system requires all applicants to turn up at Wandsworth, Manchester or Edinburgh with lots of info and proofs of various things - place to stay, health cover (a GHIC card) and adequate finances. Those are for visas of 6 months or 12 and other visas for studying or working off different lengths.

No politicians would remind those in the queues that its what they voted for. 

With respect to delays at passport control - two stories from personal experience:

1. Coaches - my wife used to take groups of up to 50 kids to France on exchange visits. She had to gather all this information about the pupils - their names and addresses, parents, passport numbers etc - and all of this info was put on two sheets of paper and presented at passport control along with the passports - which were not even looked at, usually. The process took around 10 minutes for the two documents to be stamped. Now, every single passport must be looked at and stamped individually - I have seen a time of around 2h quoted per coach, which seems realistic.

2. Coming off the ferry on Sunday morning, we had to spend 2h to clear immigration instead of the maximum of 45min in the past - each passport had to be scanned and stamped. 

Great, innit?
We’ve been on coach trips during EU membership and have had to get off the coach and go through passport control individually so they could see the document matched the person holding it. No stamp and that took not very long at all.

In years of PS (Passport Stamping) Eurotunnel are very efficient and 2 passports take less than a minute at the French booth and less at the prior UK booth. 

With the checks for Covid vaccinations etc you could double that probably.

Ferry wise - it’s easier for pet control as your dogs stay in the car and you wave the microchip reader over each dog (one at a time). They check it matches the documents and your dog’s jabs are in accordance with requirements - a couple of mins per dog/cat/ferret/ whatever.

The longest queue we’ve ever had coming off a ferry was just after the Bataclan shooting, iirc, and every car was searched. it took us nearly 2 hours from docking to leaving the port, although we were almost last off.

This week’s trip via the tunnel and an overnight stop near Rouen saw us have a coffee break next morning south of Le Mans. There, we were surprised to see lots of British numberplates and more arrived while we were there. They’d come off the morning arrival from Portsmouth at Caen. Yes it took longer, folk said. One guy was in the early batch of cars off and it took him 40 mins. He hated to think how long for the later cars.

It is what it is now. It was easy now it’s worse. 

It’s anticipating it and coping with it. It will get worse with the ETIAS system unless some bright thinking finds an improved solution. However, that would require optimism of a huge scale.

Those with the ability to travel mid-week and off-peak will fare far better than those fixed to Friday/Saturday travel.


In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 April 2023 at 8:29pm
On a side note reading bernard cornwls harlequin trology and they just stormed caen! Great books
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oracle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 April 2023 at 9:28pm
Is it the last kingdom series 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oracle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 April 2023 at 10:05pm
Interesting post regarding the same bullpoo spouted by Westminster 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 April 2023 at 10:16pm
Originally posted by Oracle Oracle wrote:

Is it the last kingdom series 
no it’s abour thomas of hookton an archer and it’s tied in with the holy grail, worth looking up

Edited by RR1972 - 06 April 2023 at 10:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oracle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 April 2023 at 10:43pm
I wasn't sure if you had the ebook or the colouring book version Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 April 2023 at 10:45pm
Audio book saves me the effort of readingWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oracle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 April 2023 at 11:09pm
Nice LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2023 at 8:58am
Something to do in those queues at Dover I suppose. 

Ah, there we go: the British audiobook market is booming because of Brexit!


Edited by dr_martinov - 07 April 2023 at 8:59am
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