Scarlet Fever Llanelli Rugby Sport Wales Tickets Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > SOCIAL > CHAT BOARD
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Jezza Corbyn
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login


Jezza Corbyn

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1718192021 64>
Author
Message
roy munster View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 30 August 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 14838
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 December 2015 at 11:27pm

I was unimpressed with many of the arguments put across and the paucity of detail, much of it felt like a mediocre university debate, not a parliamentary one. These are the full time professionals voted in and paid to represent us. But the narrowness of their little speeches, the enormous list of issues that were ignored or brushed under the carpet was staggering. A north walian MP struck a chord when it said this isn't a proper choice between either A) bomb or B) do nothing......He called it a false dichotomy and there should have been many other choices and options mooted with the many potential costs and benefits to be discussed. Alex salmond spoke some sense too.

As for the schengen agreement that allows 10000s of people who pass undetected from middle east to france, grmany Luxembourg and back etc That wasn't even discussed as a massive issue that needs to be taken tot he EU. However the EU are currently fighting to further loosen border controls and lessen the need for visas across European borders?
 
The debates I saw were mostly shallow and narrow , a lot of chest thumping and amateur theatricals, but far less content than I expected. I fear this will come back to haunt us.


Edited by roy munster - 02 December 2015 at 11:56pm
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
roy munster View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 30 August 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 14838
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2015 at 12:25am

Deaths from gun violence vs. deaths from terrorism, in one chart

In his impassioned address in the wake of Thursday's horrible shooting at an Oregon community college, President Obama issued a challenge to the media. "Have news organizations tally up the number of Americans who've been killed through terrorist attacks in the last decade and the number of Americans who've been killed by gun violence, and post those side by side on your news reports," he asked.

Deaths from terrorism and gun homicide, 2001-2011

Time20012002200320042005200620072008200920102011Deaths02,0004,0006,0008,00010,00012,00014,0000200040006000800010000120001400020012002200320042005200620072008200920102011

More than 10,000 Americans are killed every year by gun violence. By contrast, so few Americans have been killed by terrorist attacks since 9/11 that when you chart the two together, the terrorism death count approximates zero for every year except 2001. This comparison, if anything, understates the gap: Far more Americans die every year from (easily preventable) gun suicides than gun homicides.

The point Obama is making is clear: We spend huge amounts of money every year fighting terrorism, yet are unwilling, at the national level, to take even minor steps (like requiring background checks on all gun sales nationally) to stop gun violence.

"We spent over a trillion dollars, and passed countless laws, and devote entire agencies to preventing terrorist attacks on our soil, and rightfully so," Obama said. "And yet we have a Congress that explicitly blocks us from even collecting data on how we could potentially reduce gun deaths. How can that be?"

ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
Back to Top
roy munster View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 30 August 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 14838
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2015 at 12:42am
The war is not meant to be won, it is meant to be continuous. Hierarchical society is only possible on the basis of poverty and ignorance. This new version is the past and no different past can ever have existed. In principle the war effort is always planned to keep society on the brink of starvation. The war is waged by the ruling group against its own subjects and its object is not the victory over either Eurasia or East Asia, but to keep the very structure of society intact.
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
Back to Top
aber-fan View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 25 October 2004
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 17323
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2015 at 9:30am
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

I was unimpressed with many of the arguments put across and the paucity of detail, much of it felt like a mediocre university debate, not a parliamentary one. These are the full time professionals voted in and paid to represent us. But the narrowness of their little speeches, the enormous list of issues that were ignored or brushed under the carpet was staggering. A north walian MP struck a chord when it said this isn't a proper choice between either A) bomb or B) do nothing......He called it a false dichotomy and there should have been many other choices and options mooted with the many potential costs and benefits to be discussed. Alex salmond spoke some sense too.

As for the schengen agreement that allows 10000s of people who pass undetected from middle east to france, grmany Luxembourg and back etc That wasn't even discussed as a massive issue that needs to be taken tot he EU. However the EU are currently fighting to further loosen border controls and lessen the need for visas across European borders?
 
The debates I saw were mostly shallow and narrow , a lot of chest thumping and amateur theatricals, but far less content than I expected. I fear this will come back to haunt us.

I was much disgusted by Hilary Benn - and I'm pretty sure his father would have been disgusted, too:






“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
Back to Top
redeyes View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 16 August 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 12247
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redeyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2015 at 9:35am
It has been widely reported how the speech by Hilary Benn brought the house to silence and was widely applauded, something which is very rarely seen in parliament. He suggested that IS are modern day fascists who had to be defeated. He acknowledged that IS could not be defeated by bombing alone but we had to start somewhere. 


For what it's worth, I'm not ashamed to say I agree with that sentiment.  
The stadium may change, but the dream will remain the same!


Back to Top
aber-fan View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 25 October 2004
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 17323
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2015 at 10:08am
Originally posted by redeyes redeyes wrote:

It has been widely reported how the speech by Hilary Benn brought the house to silence and was widely applauded, something which is very rarely seen in parliament. He suggested that IS are modern day fascists who had to be defeated. He acknowledged that IS could not be defeated by bombing alone but we had to start somewhere. 


For what it's worth, I'm not ashamed to say I agree with that sentiment.  

Benn's speech was a rabble-rousing rant, which was cynically delivered to present himself as a front-runner to succeed Corbyn (I suppose at least his father might have sympathised with that aim, if not the context).

Are you suggesting that those of us who oppose bombing in some sense support IS? if so, you are seriously mistaken.
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
Back to Top
redeyes View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 16 August 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 12247
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redeyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2015 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by redeyes redeyes wrote:

It has been widely reported how the speech by Hilary Benn brought the house to silence and was widely applauded, something which is very rarely seen in parliament. He suggested that IS are modern day fascists who had to be defeated. He acknowledged that IS could not be defeated by bombing alone but we had to start somewhere. 


For what it's worth, I'm not ashamed to say I agree with that sentiment.  

Benn's speech was a rabble-rousing rant, which was cynically delivered to present himself as a front-runner to succeed Corbyn (I suppose at least his father might have sympathised with that aim, if not the context).

Are you suggesting that those of us who oppose bombing in some sense support IS? if so, you are seriously mistaken.

I am not suggesting anything of the sort. I haven't done so in the past either. I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion either.

 You are perfectly entitled to your views, as am I.  I am only saying that I believe the correct decision has been taken.

Now we have Livingstone saying he would back deselection of labour members who voted for the airstrikes. I guess he can't grasp the concept of a free vote.


The stadium may change, but the dream will remain the same!


Back to Top
YoungScud View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 02 February 2015
Location: Glasgow
Status: Offline
Points: 118
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YoungScud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2015 at 12:17pm
Originally posted by redeyes redeyes wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by redeyes redeyes wrote:

It has been widely reported how the speech by Hilary Benn brought the house to silence and was widely applauded, something which is very rarely seen in parliament. He suggested that IS are modern day fascists who had to be defeated. He acknowledged that IS could not be defeated by bombing alone but we had to start somewhere. 


For what it's worth, I'm not ashamed to say I agree with that sentiment.  

Benn's speech was a rabble-rousing rant, which was cynically delivered to present himself as a front-runner to succeed Corbyn (I suppose at least his father might have sympathised with that aim, if not the context).

Are you suggesting that those of us who oppose bombing in some sense support IS? if so, you are seriously mistaken.

I am not suggesting anything of the sort. I haven't done so in the past either. I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion either.

 You are perfectly entitled to your views, as am I.  I am only saying that I believe the correct decision has been taken.

Now we have Livingstone saying he would back deselection of labour members who voted for the airstrikes. I guess he can't grasp the concept of a free vote.


 
 
I suppose you can't grasp the concept of a constituency party holding its MP to account and making a judgement as to whether or not he serves his constituents. A free vote is just that, and an MP is free to vote his conscience (hard to write without chuckling) but he also has to unedertsand that choices bring consequences. If he chooses to ignore the will of his constituents, there may be a price for that.
Back to Top
Ffidel Bennett View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 31 August 2014
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 6306
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ffidel Bennett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2015 at 12:24pm
IS do  have fascist tendencies but so too have The Gulf States, Turkey and to a lesser but increasing extent does the USA, especially in its foreign policy which demands a unipolar world under its domination and woe-betide any small nation that stands in its way, no matter what the consequences. 
IS will have to be confronted and defeated and if this was what Benn wanted he should have been campaigning for one united coalition involving the Syrian army, the Kurds, Iran, Hezbollah, Russia the Gulf States and NATO,
Then they would have boots on the ground to mop up after the sophisticated air forces cut off transport of IS arms and recruits. Unfortunately  Turkey and the Gulf States have been arming, training and supporting IS and even buying their oil. Leaked reports show that the subversion of the Syrian Govt started in 2005 under the Bush administration.
The unspoken aim of all those unwilling to join the Syrian army in fighting IS  is  regime change in Syria and Hilary Benn can't be very bright if he doesn't realize this. What makes matters worse is once the West makes up some excuse or false flag (as it has already done once with the sarin gas false flag) for turning its bombers on the real coalition to defeat IS, it will be up against a nuclear armed Russia as well as some pretty tough and experienced fighters.
 The very best that we can say of Benn is how naïve he is be. He should have realized immediately after the Tories gave him such an ovation for a speech that was hardly in the "we will fight them on the beaches" class.
Back to Top
GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 01 December 2014
Location: Rhydcymerau
Status: Offline
Points: 14383
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2015 at 12:34pm
We have naively taken the first step which will inevitably lead to more British body bags arriving home. IS will only be defeated with Western ground forces supported hopefully by Arab League & NATO. Cameron should have been honest & open about this fact so that Parliament could reach an informed decision. We have been here many times in the last 10-20 years & don't seem to have learnt any lessons. Europe should use their fighting forces to secure their borders as should we. Bombing IS in Syria will have no short or long term effect on their desire/ability to cause mass destruction in Western cities. 
Back to Top
roy munster View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 30 August 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 14838
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2015 at 1:42pm
https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/western-firms-plan-to-cash-in-on-syria-s-oil-and-gas-frontier-6c5fa4a72a92#.a80xyxx9x
well worth a read...as always some people will get awfully rich out of this civil war
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
Back to Top
Dan the Drover View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 20 April 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 3671
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan the Drover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2015 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

We have naively taken the first step which will inevitably lead to more British body bags arriving home. IS will only be defeated with Western ground forces supported hopefully by Arab League & NATO. Cameron should have been honest & open about this fact so that Parliament could reach an informed decision. We have been here many times in the last 10-20 years & don't seem to have learnt any lessons. Europe should use their fighting forces to secure their borders as should we. Bombing IS in Syria will have no short or long term effect on their desire/ability to cause mass destruction in Western cities. 


Yes, it is inevitable, and because we're the electorate (as distinct from the politicians) we'll be suitably outraged when an attack on London eventually happens and (for a time) we will demand escalation of our violent riposte to make us feel better, which simply hastens the day.

Nor is it clear how (in this case, and given the dreadful precedent of Libya) the UK can avoid involvement in a ground war and the suggestion that there is a coherent Syrian opposition ready and willing to do this for us is clearly a lie at least commensurate with Blair's "weapons of mass destruction" scam.  But it looks like the West will need considerably more goading before it embarks on yet another mass intervention, and since that's exactly what IS wants to have happen, I shudder to think how they might go about it.  But if I were them, I'd be thinking "so far, so good".

I was not in favour of our bombing IS except as part of a realistic plan to eradicate it as a movement, and sorting out the situation in Syria, Iraq, Kurdistan (and thence Iran and Turkey) that gave rise to it in the first place.  Imagining that trying to kill IS leaders from the air is the most appropriate starting point for that is both stupid and dishonest , but I suppose it fulfils the political imperative to be seen to be doing something.
Back to Top
roy munster View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 30 August 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 14838
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2015 at 2:10pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

We have naively taken the first step which will inevitably lead to more British body bags arriving home. IS will only be defeated with Western ground forces supported hopefully by Arab League & NATO. Cameron should have been honest & open about this fact so that Parliament could reach an informed decision. We have been here many times in the last 10-20 years & don't seem to have learnt any lessons. Europe should use their fighting forces to secure their borders as should we. Bombing IS in Syria will have no short or long term effect on their desire/ability to cause mass destruction in Western cities. 
 
 
This whole thing feels like another smokescreen...Unbelievably the EU have moved to loosen up further the border controls in the last few weeks? Nothing has been done or said about the insane Schengen agreement,  allowing 6 of the 8 paris bombers to move freely and unchecked back and forth between Syria and Europe for years? why didn't that idiot ham, hilary benn mention any of this, during his humiliating amateur dramatics? We cant stop them coming into Europe , we cant even check their paperwork, so we are defenceless. Now we are bombing Syria, with nothing mentioned about border controls, barely anything mentioned for building refugee camps....
 
One can logically conclude there will be more displacement, more mass immigration of poor refugees, more infiltration by terrorists across European borders, more recruitment for terrorists. But on the other side of the coin, we may bomb some of the weapons we originally supplied but we will not stop them receiving more weapons from the Saudis oh and from US in the west? So we can keep supplying weapons from all sides and keep using them as an excuse to go back in and bomb the area for decades to come? So weapon sales will go through the roof  and the countries resources will be divvied up amongst these very same people. Are we really safer? Or are the top 0.001% just richer?
 
 
 
 
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
Back to Top
roy munster View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 30 August 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 14838
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2015 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by Dan the Drover Dan the Drover wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

We have naively taken the first step which will inevitably lead to more British body bags arriving home. IS will only be defeated with Western ground forces supported hopefully by Arab League & NATO. Cameron should have been honest & open about this fact so that Parliament could reach an informed decision. We have been here many times in the last 10-20 years & don't seem to have learnt any lessons. Europe should use their fighting forces to secure their borders as should we. Bombing IS in Syria will have no short or long term effect on their desire/ability to cause mass destruction in Western cities. 


Yes, it is inevitable, and because we're the electorate (as distinct from the politicians) we'll be suitably outraged when an attack on London eventually happens and (for a time) we will demand escalation of our violent riposte to make us feel better, which simply hastens the day.

Nor is it clear how (in this case, and given the dreadful precedent of Libya) the UK can avoid involvement in a ground war and the suggestion that there is a coherent Syrian opposition ready and willing to do this for us is clearly a lie at least commensurate with Blair's "weapons of mass destruction" scam.  But it looks like the West will need considerably more goading before it embarks on yet another mass intervention, and since that's exactly what IS wants to have happen, I shudder to think how they might go about it.  But if I were them, I'd be thinking "so far, so good".

I was not in favour of our bombing IS except as part of a realistic plan to eradicate it as a movement, and sorting out the situation in Syria, Iraq, Kurdistan (and thence Iran and Turkey) that gave rise to it in the first place.  Imagining that trying to kill IS leaders from the air is the most appropriate starting point for that is both stupid and dishonest , but I suppose it fulfils the political imperative to be seen to be doing something.
 
Good post
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
Back to Top
redeyes View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 16 August 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 12247
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redeyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2015 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by Ffidel Bennett Ffidel Bennett wrote:

IS do  have fascist tendencies but so too have The Gulf States, Turkey and to a lesser but increasing extent does the USA, especially in its foreign policy which demands a unipolar world under its domination and woe-betide any small nation that stands in its way, no matter what the consequences. 
IS will have to be confronted and defeated and if this was what Benn wanted he should have been campaigning for one united coalition involving the Syrian army, the Kurds, Iran, Hezbollah, Russia the Gulf States and NATO,
Then they would have boots on the ground to mop up after the sophisticated air forces cut off transport of IS arms and recruits. Unfortunately  Turkey and the Gulf States have been arming, training and supporting IS and even buying their oil. Leaked reports show that the subversion of the Syrian Govt started in 2005 under the Bush administration.
The unspoken aim of all those unwilling to join the Syrian army in fighting IS  is  regime change in Syria and Hilary Benn can't be very bright if he doesn't realize this. What makes matters worse is once the West makes up some excuse or false flag (as it has already done once with the sarin gas false flag) for turning its bombers on the real coalition to defeat IS, it will be up against a nuclear armed Russia as well as some pretty tough and experienced fighters.
 The very best that we can say of Benn is how naïve he is be. He should have realized immediately after the Tories gave him such an ovation for a speech that was hardly in the "we will fight them on the beaches" class.

I've just heard a political journalist on sky news saying it's the best speech he's heard in the commons in twenty years.
The stadium may change, but the dream will remain the same!


Back to Top
roy munster View Drop Down
Veteran
Veteran
Avatar

Joined: 30 August 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 14838
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2015 at 2:40pm
every time his father opened his mouth it was infinitely better than Hilary's drivel.......Heres the great man lamenting the sales of arms to Iraq...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPL-IaFpcZA....A giant of a man with genius oration, huge heart and a phenomenal command of history...what the heck happened to Hilary ? Ive never seen an apple fall so far from a great tree
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1718192021 64>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.04
Copyright ©2001-2021 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.