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Moving on, after Munster

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scarletpimp View Drop Down
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    Posted: 13 October 2021 at 2:59pm
Its now 3 days since the 'Munster reality check', for the Scarlets, and the pain of such a hammering, still hurts. There are many angry people on Scarlet Fever, and I can sympathise, because, not just the defeat, but the nature of it, is demoralising.
Last season, when we lost to Sale by 50points, in a high profile European game, it was a totally unacceptable performance, with almost a full team.

Last Sunday, with the crowd back, and with Munster selecting allegedly an 'A' side, one would have thought the Scarlets would have maintained a winning home record this season. 
How wrong could we be ! 

Apart from Scarlets woeful failings, one has to give a huge amount of credit to a young, fit, fully
committed Munster side, totally well coached and prepared for this game.
Its sad to say it, but we were outplayed in every aspect of play.
What impressed me, was the zest in which they attacked and defended.
They swiftly altered their direction of attack, frequently using dummy - runners to confuse would be tacklers. Ball was quick, and rapidly delivered.
In contrast, they expertly slowed down our ball, and in true Munster fashion, 'played the ref like a fiddle'.
As a consequence it have them time to re-organise ,but fairness, they missed very few tackles, and their general structure was excellent.
The other thing which is often overlooked, is the general aerial skills, of many of the Irish sides.
Their kicking game was excellent,, from dead ball and open play. Kicks were usually excellent in height , and accompanied by a really good chase.

In contrast Scarlets, not only failed to match Munster physically, but technically, and tactically there were deficiencies and we need to LEARN not only from our mistakes, but also from what Munster achieved, as indicated above.
Under Gatland, Wales won our last Grand Slam, not with incredible creativity, but on a watertight defence, marshalled by Shaun Edwards.
Scarlets need to learn this lesson, and soon.
The new defence coach must have  had nightmares, watching the one on one missed tackles from Scarlets players in this game That is clearly something to work on.
What is equally, if not more important, is putting systems in place, that all players, whoever they are can buy in to , and slot in to seamlessly.
Those structures , may take a little time, but are essential for success.
You only have to look at the NZ national side, apart from the quality they have at their disposal,
whoever comes in, knows their role in the structure, and it works.
It is likely that the NZ regional sided operate in a similar vein, there making it easy for anyone joining the side.
Wayne Pivac having a regular dialogue with regional coaches, therefore makes sense.

Reading  what Munster head coach Johan van Graan  said aftre the match was quite education, particularly in the context of the above.

"We came here with a specific job in mind and we executed our game plane well.
We scored some very good open field tries and some excellent set piece tries.
We coach these players every day and we've been working on this project for the last five years.
We are improving every season, and it doesn't matter who takes the field, they've got a responsibility to the shirt, and to come away to Parc y Scarlets and get a five point bonus point win was excellent"

The most salient point to absorb from those comments is...
1) There is a "project" in place, short, medium and long term...5 years
2)Each player has to take responsibility to represent the jersey and the region.. whoever they are 
supported by structures put in place.

One could argue that Scarlets have been unlucky last season with the lengthy injury list.
To a degree, this has continued to blight the current season.
Witnessing our issues at the contact area against Munster, its easy to forget where we have come from.
In 2017/18. we had Barclay, Beirne, and Cubby. Two of these have now left, and one may not play again.
Things may improve significantly once Scott McLoud returns, and probably plays in tandem with Tomos Lezana.
We are  desperately missing a quality 10 to run the game for us, and consequently, Rhys Patchell's absence has been huge.
Sam Costeloe, is a fine young player, doing well, but is still learning the game at the top end.
Against Munster we need to exploit gaps behind their rush defence , which smothered us at every opportunity.
This is nor something new, and the Cardiff blues game, at home last year, is another example of lack of tactical nous.
To compound Scarlets issues, with the departure of Jake Ball and Tex, we are lacking serious firepower.
despite the great potential of Morgan Jones, Jac Price etc, Dwaine knows he will have to recruit , but for now, we have to deal the cards we have.

Of all the issues highlighted above, Scarlet's major problem has been one of CONTINUITY.
Firstly Simon Easterrby left to join Ireland as defence/ forwards coach
Wayne Pivac was appointed and it took two seasons (during which many were calling for his head)
before wee had significant and sustained success in 2017/2018.
Before Pivac could consolidate further, he left to became Wales national coach, taking the bulk of the coaching team with him.
He was replaced by Brad Moar who himself left after a season, to coach NZ national side,.
Moar was replaced by Glen Delaney, and as he was not suitable for the role, left after a year.
Delaney was replaced by Dwaine Peel.

NO business whatever it is, leave alone a sporting organisation, can survive that consistent turmoil and disruption to whatever is happening in terms, of expectancy, technical analysis, philosophy etc..in a word a complete lack of CONTINUITY, which is what we need right now.
There are voices calling already, that Dwaine has no experience as Head Coach, and was the wrong appointment.
I beg to differ.
Anyone listening to him talk, will know that not only is he a scarlet through and through, BUT he has the attitude and over arching philosophy, to take Scarlets to better things.
He has a team that itself will be learning, so there will be tough lessons along the way.
Given what  Munster's Van Graan has said about his long term project, I feel that as Scarlets fans we need to be patient,
Dwaine has inherited a squad, which he will clearly need to strengthen.
He will need need to assess the contribution of senior players, like Foxy, Ken and Shings, and how best to use them.
There will also  need to be some harsh decisions made, not just on selection, but in the longer term, with some having to be thanked for their excellent service to the Scarlets, before moving on.
That's the nature of professional sport !
I am sure that with the continued support of the board, Dwaine will succeed

Finally we all ,as supporter's have our part to play, shouting singing, and uniting together.
Being a Scarlet is one of most important things in my life, outside of family.
Just being with fellow Scarlets on matchdays is a joy!
Whatever difficulties we face ,we do if together.
We have to be brave , we may have to be patient., but success will come!

YMA O HYD
Let the wind blow from the east,
Let the storm roar from the sea,
Let the lightning split the heavens
and the thunder shout encore
lLet the tears of the faint hearted flow,
and the servile lick the floor
Despite the blackness around us
We are ready for the breaking dawn

We are still here,
We are still here.
In spite of everyone and everything
We are still here
###########################################




 


I stood yer on tanner bank
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Dic Penderyn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dic Penderyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2021 at 3:08pm
Great post!
Now where did I put that copy of War and Peace...???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2021 at 3:53pm
Ymlaen!
https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote surfing-mtber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2021 at 4:48pm
Originally posted by Dic Penderyn Dic Penderyn wrote:

Great post!
Now where did I put that copy of War and Peace...???


LOLLOLLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2021 at 7:39pm
Good discussion reset.
In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rubrum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2021 at 10:16am
A pragmatic and sensible view from Scarletpimp.
Yes, the Scarlets were rubbish as a whole against Munster, yet there were some flashes of brilliance such as Costelows kick on for Johnny Mac to score from.  So I see hope there.
However, as a fan I feel frustrated at our up-and-down performances.
We swing between the sublime and frankly ridiculous.
Some consistency would be welcome while, as you say, we regroup under Peels leadership.
And leadership is, I believe lacking on the field.  Foxy is a nice guy, an experienced player, but lacks the ability to get in the refs ear and mind.  Yes, Munster outdid us on the field and in the refs view of the game.  Is there coaching in getting into the refs ear at PyS ? 
It may be worth doing so if not.
Please, if it's to be a 'project' just improve the tackling to start with !

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2021 at 10:24am
Originally posted by Rubrum Rubrum wrote:

A pragmatic and sensible view from Scarletpimp.
Yes, the Scarlets were rubbish as a whole against Munster, yet there were some flashes of brilliance such as Costelows kick on for Johnny Mac to score from.  So I see hope there.
However, as a fan I feel frustrated at our up-and-down performances.
We swing between the sublime and frankly ridiculous.
Some consistency would be welcome while, as you say, we regroup under Peels leadership.
And leadership is, I believe lacking on the field.  Foxy is a nice guy, an experienced player, but lacks the ability to get in the refs ear and mind.  Yes, Munster outdid us on the field and in the refs view of the game.  Is there coaching in getting into the refs ear at PyS ? 
It may be worth doing so if not.
Please, if it's to be a 'project' just improve the tackling to start with !


Good post. A project it certainly is. I have to say I am struggling to see anything sublime in the 3 games so far - I have seen good rugby - good lines, great distribution by Costelow & Scott in particular. Leadership has been AWOL since Barclay & Scott left & I think Foxy being named captain was Peel's first mistake. 

Some of our basics are very poor and have been for a while - lineout, breakdown and defence. Those 3 should be the focus of all our work for the next two games & during the International break. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ndavies198 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2021 at 10:47am
According to Opta, Scarlets are second in the league for most entires into the opposition 22 but only fourth for converting that into points. The platform is there. If Scarlets can turn that pressure into points with the efficiency of Munster then the wins will surely come - along with sorting out the defence but hopefully that's just a case of adjusting to whatever Hogan is laying down and we'll see improvements as the season goes on.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2021 at 11:53am
Originally posted by ndavies198 ndavies198 wrote:

According to Opta, Scarlets are second in the league for most entires into the opposition 22 but only fourth for converting that into points. The platform is there. If Scarlets can turn that pressure into points with the efficiency of Munster then the wins will surely come - along with sorting out the defence but hopefully that's just a case of adjusting to whatever Hogan is laying down and we'll see improvements as the season goes on.

That stat is probably true but what mystifies me is our reliance on forward power, which we have little of, to score the tries instead of using our backs.
Cost Wales dear in 2015 World Cup against Australia when they are down to 13 men .
It is one of my bug  bears seeing forwards battering against defences metres from the line when often there is space out wide. 
She asks why i still can't answer. I guess its in the blood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ndavies198 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2021 at 12:40pm
Absolutely, it's the execution at the moment which appears to be letting the Scarlets down. I agree, for example, when I see us go to the maul from a lineout, I feel like I'm waiting for the ball to be turned over.

But as these stats show, I believe there are reasons to be hopeful, three games in with a new coaching set up and they're putting themselves into good positions, they just need to work on their decision making and finishing in the 22 to turn that position into points. 

Hopefully it's something we can see the coaches and players build on and from there we will see more wins. By Christmas time I'd hope we can see the team moving in a positive direction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2021 at 1:01pm
Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

Originally posted by ndavies198 ndavies198 wrote:

According to Opta, Scarlets are second in the league for most entires into the opposition 22 but only fourth for converting that into points. The platform is there. If Scarlets can turn that pressure into points with the efficiency of Munster then the wins will surely come - along with sorting out the defence but hopefully that's just a case of adjusting to whatever Hogan is laying down and we'll see improvements as the season goes on.

That stat is probably true but what mystifies me is our reliance on forward power, which we have little of, to score the tries instead of using our backs.
Cost Wales dear in 2015 World Cup against Australia when they are down to 13 men .
It is one of my bug  bears seeing forwards battering against defences metres from the line when often there is space out wide. 

Spot on Why.Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletnut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2021 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

Originally posted by ndavies198 ndavies198 wrote:

According to Opta, Scarlets are second in the league for most entires into the opposition 22 but only fourth for converting that into points. The platform is there. If Scarlets can turn that pressure into points with the efficiency of Munster then the wins will surely come - along with sorting out the defence but hopefully that's just a case of adjusting to whatever Hogan is laying down and we'll see improvements as the season goes on.

That stat is probably true but what mystifies me is our reliance on forward power, which we have little of, to score the tries instead of using our backs.
Cost Wales dear in 2015 World Cup against Australia when they are down to 13 men .
It is one of my bug  bears seeing forwards battering against defences metres from the line when often there is space out wide. 
But you can't separate the two. If you don't gain parity upfront then it becomes very difficult to utilise your back-line.
I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2021 at 1:34pm
Originally posted by scarletpimp scarletpimp wrote:


NO business whatever it is, leave alone a sporting organisation, can survive that consistent turmoil and disruption to whatever is happening in terms, of expectancy, technical analysis, philosophy etc..in a word a complete lack of CONTINUITY, which is what we need right now.
There are voices calling already, that Dwaine has no experience as Head Coach, and was the wrong appointment.
I beg to differ.
Anyone listening to him talk, will know that not only is he a scarlet through and through, BUT he has the attitude and over arching philosophy, to take Scarlets to better things.
He has a team that itself will be learning, so there will be tough lessons along the way.
Given what  Munster's Van Graan has said about his long term project, I feel that as Scarlets fans we need to be patient,
Dwaine has inherited a squad, which he will clearly need to strengthen.
He will need need to assess the contribution of senior players, like Foxy, Ken and Shings, and how best to use them.
There will also  need to be some harsh decisions made, not just on selection, but in the longer term, with some having to be thanked for their excellent service to the Scarlets, before moving on.
That's the nature of professional sport !
I am sure that with the continued support of the board, Dwaine will succeed



So much to agree with in the whole of scarletpimp's post. For me, the key section is this one and the highlighted points. A very pragmatic analysis.
What's going on?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote N14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2021 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

Originally posted by ndavies198 ndavies198 wrote:

According to Opta, Scarlets are second in the league for most entires into the opposition 22 but only fourth for converting that into points. The platform is there. If Scarlets can turn that pressure into points with the efficiency of Munster then the wins will surely come - along with sorting out the defence but hopefully that's just a case of adjusting to whatever Hogan is laying down and we'll see improvements as the season goes on.

That stat is probably true but what mystifies me is our reliance on forward power, which we have little of, to score the tries instead of using our backs.
Cost Wales dear in 2015 World Cup against Australia when they are down to 13 men .
It is one of my bug  bears seeing forwards battering against defences metres from the line when often there is space out wide. 
But you can't separate the two. If you don't gain parity upfront then it becomes very difficult to utilise your back-line.

Makes our lack of signings in key areas amongst the forwards all the more frustrating. Losing Ball and Tex without replacing them was madness
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2021 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

Originally posted by ndavies198 ndavies198 wrote:

According to Opta, Scarlets are second in the league for most entires into the opposition 22 but only fourth for converting that into points. The platform is there. If Scarlets can turn that pressure into points with the efficiency of Munster then the wins will surely come - along with sorting out the defence but hopefully that's just a case of adjusting to whatever Hogan is laying down and we'll see improvements as the season goes on.

That stat is probably true but what mystifies me is our reliance on forward power, which we have little of, to score the tries instead of using our backs.
Cost Wales dear in 2015 World Cup against Australia when they are down to 13 men .
It is one of my bug  bears seeing forwards battering against defences metres from the line when often there is space out wide. 
But you can't separate the two. If you don't gain parity upfront then it becomes very difficult to utilise your back-line.

Why is right Steff - you can get parity or near parity but still play to your strengths. I cannot recall the Scarlets in recent years ever being able to convert many 5 metre opportunities through forward power. Our tactic should be to make a few close charges to such in defenders and then get it wide. How many times have we seen pick and go after pick and go until we inevitably spill it - chance gone. It doesn't just happen once a game. Remember Edinburgh a few seasons ago we must have tries a dozen times with no return & we lost by 3 points. Mind numbingly stupid. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletpimp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2021 at 1:48pm
Many thanks to those who have replied to the thread I started yesterday.
Also , some great observations made tackling/defence, line out, and the breakdown.
It seems bizarre  that we were so strong in the back row at one time.
Now, a combination  of departures, injury, etc have left us struggling. 
Obviously, this could change, but the breakdown, as proven  against Munster, proving a real issue for us! 
The addition of Lezana, will hopefully improve things.

What a contrast when we look at Cardiff, who have Robinson, Williams,Botham, Navidi,Boyde, AND, now Young.
Surely going to be difficult to keep all these happy.
Dragons, also are very strong in this area.Anyone who saw Taine Basham's performance against Conaught last weekend, can only be hugely impressed. Definitely  deserves a chance in a Welsh Jersey! 

Anyway, let us hope, we can build something against Leinster
There will be no expectations, against the best side in the league,
particularly in their RDS fortress.
Ospreys won there last year, with a memorable 'comeback ', performance.
Can scarlets repeat that, I doubt it, but would settle for a performance showing more vigour, heart, and sheer pride, than we witnessed last sunday

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