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New WRU funding model

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ladram View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ladram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2019 at 10:56am
Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

A North Wales pro team is being used, to coin a phrase, as a backstop. It should be a warning to the others that if they don't get their own house in order, they could be ditched in favour of a development region in the north. It's like the unloved old banger that follows the Top Gear trio on their pan-continental expeditions - no one wants to be the one to drive it, but it's always there, lurking in the background.

While this sounds like the same outcome that the WRU were trying to achieve by hostile take-over a few years ago under Lewis and Pickering, this feels a little different. The danger was that, as soon as PRW achieved a coup within the WRU, the regions could be become complacent and pass all the hard problems to the Union.

Dragons threw in the towel and handed over the keys to Rodney Parade, while the others had to reduce their debt - Scarlets debtors exchanged theirs for shares, and went after every possible funding and sponsorship opportunity to top up the coffers and maximise playing budgets. Uncle Peter finally released his grip on Cardiff with a magnanimous debt write-off, but the same team and culture is otherwise in place there, so they haven't made any further progress. The Ospreys have lost and not replaced their generous benefactors, including Cuddy, leading them to the brink of insolvency.

It sounds like Ospreys have managed to delay the announcement due yesterday, presumably as they've found a way to keep going a little further, but it must come to a head at some point. The worry is that a pro RGC will be even more unsustainable than any of the current 4, but I guess if budgets and expectations can be kept exceptionally low, it makes one or two relatively well-funded, competitive pro teams feasible.

But we need the Ospreys to be strong - as Wales's most successful team of the professional era, and our fiercest rival, we'd all be poorer without them in some guise. Let's hope the stalking horse doesn't need to be saddled.
well said,ClapClap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2019 at 11:34am
Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

A North Wales pro team is being used, to coin a phrase, as a backstop. It should be a warning to the others that if they don't get their own house in order, they could be ditched in favour of a development region in the north. It's like the unloved old banger that follows the Top Gear trio on their pan-continental expeditions - no one wants to be the one to drive it, but it's always there, lurking in the background.

While this sounds like the same outcome that the WRU were trying to achieve by hostile take-over a few years ago under Lewis and Pickering, this feels a little different. The danger was that, as soon as PRW achieved a coup within the WRU, the regions could be become complacent and pass all the hard problems to the Union.

Dragons threw in the towel and handed over the keys to Rodney Parade, while the others had to reduce their debt - Scarlets debtors exchanged theirs for shares, and went after every possible funding and sponsorship opportunity to top up the coffers and maximise playing budgets. Uncle Peter finally released his grip on Cardiff with a magnanimous debt write-off, but the same team and culture is otherwise in place there, so they haven't made any further progress. The Ospreys have lost and not replaced their generous benefactors, including Cuddy, leading them to the brink of insolvency.

It sounds like Ospreys have managed to delay the announcement due yesterday, presumably as they've found a way to keep going a little further, but it must come to a head at some point. The worry is that a pro RGC will be even more unsustainable than any of the current 4, but I guess if budgets and expectations can be kept exceptionally low, it makes one or two relatively well-funded, competitive pro teams feasible.

But we need the Ospreys to be strong - as Wales's most successful team of the professional era, and our fiercest rival, we'd all be poorer without them in some guise. Let's hope the stalking horse doesn't need to be saddled.


Sums it up nicely.
The Ospreys Board have basically not met, or possibly ignored, the challenges the new WRU Board presented.
The changes requested were understandable and hardly revolutionary... get your house in order, maximise you revenue, reduce or clear debts.

It would be surprising if an eleventh hour reprieve was any more than that, just a reprieve.

They need to go back, cap in hand, to Dai Princes Gate, or any other possible backer ( Dai was all lined up to take over only a few weeks ago), and accept that he, nor anyone else, was going to refund them either partially, or in whole, for their investment in the Os down the years.
That way, the Os may, just may, find a way out of this.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NobbySosban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2019 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

What a bloody mess. The professional players in Wales are being shafted & I, personally, wouldn't blame any of them for walking away & securing their futures. The pipe dream of having a professional team in North Wales is total and utter nonsense. The final decisions on the existing regions will clearly have more to do with current finances/support but the obvious merger would be the Dragons & Blues as I see it. Regardless of their current predicament the Ospreys are the most successful regional side to date followed by us and that history should be rewarded. 

The Blues playing base is still not resolved long term so maybe a move to the Dragons would make sense in more ways than one. Going to 3 regions would free up around £2 million per remaining region which should make the promises thrown around at the outset of Project Reset far more deliverable. The whole shambolic way this has been handled by the WRU makes Roger the dodger look like a saint. The recruitment of all regions for next season will mean all are going to start 2019/20 weaker than this so the gap to the other Scots/Italian & Irish teams will get bigger. 

Couple of issues with this:
  • 3 Regions = less competition & TV money --> so no net gain
  • this is not now the WRU imposing a model on the regions - it's a round table of 4 Pro team + WRU trying to thrash out realistic, sustainable solutions to deliver successful pro & international squads - the limiting factor is the quality and commercial ability among the top execs in some of the pro clubs who will revert to posturing & toy-throwing unless and until they understand that it's their own problem to fix; Project Reset will not immediately deliver a pot of cash, but it's necessary to put the platform in place that can lead to revenue gains to fulfill those objectives



Edited by NobbySosban - 27 February 2019 at 12:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ffidel Bennett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2019 at 12:08pm
Although the least logical in terms of geography a Scarlets- Dragons link-up would appeal to me in terms of development of playing talent. The Dragons Academy /U20/U18 are turning out some excellent prospects and playing some fine rugby. Anyway it would be less of a journey than travelling to N. Wales and as far as training goes I'm sure lots of people travel further than that each day, with many Scarlets players living in Cardiff and sharing lifts already -they could then all catch the daily Scarlet Dragons bus and learn some  Welsh songs on the way.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BlackwoodScarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2019 at 12:32pm
Didn't the rugby paper state the Dragons had overspent by a million, the Blues needed to find a million , also the arms park deal hasn't be sorted yet and the Ospreys had a 500k loan off the Wru
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HollowayScarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2019 at 12:44pm
I wonder if the English League would be looking to swoop up any left over team? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NobbySosban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2019 at 1:46pm
The English Premiership doesn't want/need a Welsh team - they have their own rivalries which bring significant TV audiences as well as travelling supporters, and are moving towards ring-fencing among their own shareholding clubs, plus an investment from CVC for a successful model.

Edited by NobbySosban - 27 February 2019 at 1:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reesytheexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2019 at 1:53pm
With our modern rugby dedicated stadium the future of Professional rugby being played in Llanelli must be 99% assured? Now, who plays in it and carrying what name may now be one of the melting pot Agenda items! I pray it is the Scarlets !

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NobbySosban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2019 at 2:14pm
Pivac has been asked for his thoughts.

Key quotes:
  • "Four teams are important to get that number of players (the) exposure at this level, to bolster that national team"
  • "Back home in New Zealand, there has always been a lot of history at all clubs and nobody wants to lose that. It's happened before in other countries and it may happen here in the future, who knows? I'm just pleased to say that the Scarlets are in reasonable shape off the field."
    Pivac says he has had assurances over the future of the Scarlets region.
  • Pivac says coaches and players have become used to the uncertainty.
    "It's gone on for quite some time now. All we can do is focus on the here and now and it's my last season with the Scarlets so all my time is devoted to getting the boys to perform the best we can. It's taking a little bit of time to make these pretty important decisions and pretty frustrating in terms of finalising squads."


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ladram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2019 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

Pivac has been asked for his thoughts.

Key quotes:
  • "Four teams are important to get that number of players (the) exposure at this level, to bolster that national team"
  • "Back home in New Zealand, there has always been a lot of history at all clubs and nobody wants to lose that. It's happened before in other countries and it may happen here in the future, who knows? I'm just pleased to say that the Scarlets are in reasonable shape off the field."
    Pivac says he has had assurances over the future of the Scarlets region.
  • Pivac says coaches and players have become used to the uncertainty.
    "It's gone on for quite some time now. All we can do is focus on the here and now and it's my last season with the Scarlets so all my time is devoted to getting the boys to perform the best we can. It's taking a little bit of time to make these pretty important decisions and pretty frustrating in terms of finalising squads."


which makes the union look like the bunch of self centred w*****s they always have been.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NobbySosban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2019 at 3:37pm
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

which makes the union look like the bunch of self centred w*****s they always have been.

How so?

Remember, the PRB is the 4 Regions plus the WRU - PRB have discussed, agreed and set the ground rules for the new Rugby Services Agreement - they've all signed up to it together.

Now one team has failed to achieve the financial conditions, for whatever reasons, and risks being excluded. They've got a chance to sort themselves out now, but it's a short window of opportunity, and it's not clear whether they have the will or the wherewithal to make it happen with their current leadership.

Instead of trying to fight the union, everyone needs to understand that we're all part of the problem and the solution, otherwise the good old Welsh blame game goes on and all the infighting will tear it apart.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote surfing-mtber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2019 at 5:46pm
Wales players have requested a meeting with the WRU. For clarification (according to the BBC).
Joshua24:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ladram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2019 at 6:31pm
Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

which makes the union look like the bunch of self centred w*****s they always have been.

How so?

Remember, the PRB is the 4 Regions plus the WRU - PRB have discussed, agreed and set the ground rules for the new Rugby Services Agreement - they've all signed up to it together.

Now one team has failed to achieve the financial conditions, for whatever reasons, and risks being excluded. They've got a chance to sort themselves out now, but it's a short window of opportunity, and it's not clear whether they have the will or the wherewithal to make it happen with their current leadership.

Instead of trying to fight the union, everyone needs to understand that we're all part of the problem and the solution, otherwise the good old Welsh blame game goes on and all the infighting will tear it apart.
i'm assuming the one team being the ospreys?yet the other team that is a pile of rubbish is being propped up by the governing body,yet the self same governing body are willing to take a punt and spend money on a venture in north wales that even stevie wonder can see is doomed to fail,it has taken 15 years to get where we are now and instead of trying to shake the status quo fund it properly as it's these 4 regions that have put wales on the brink of a grand slam.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletnut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2019 at 6:35pm
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

which makes the union look like the bunch of self centred w*****s they always have been.


How so?

Remember, the PRB is the 4 Regions plus the WRU - PRB have discussed, agreed and set the ground rules for the new Rugby Services Agreement - they've all signed up to it together.

Now one team has failed to achieve the financial conditions, for whatever reasons, and risks being excluded. They've got a chance to sort themselves out now, but it's a short window of opportunity, and it's not clear whether they have the will or the wherewithal to make it happen with their current leadership.

Instead of trying to fight the union, everyone needs to understand that we're all part of the problem and the solution, otherwise the good old Welsh blame game goes on and all the infighting will tear it apart.

i'm assuming the one team being the ospreys?yet the other team that is a pile of rubbish is being propped up by the governing body,yet the self same governing body are willing to take a punt and spend money on a venture in north wales that even stevie wonder can see is doomed to fail,it has taken 15 years to get where we are now and instead of trying to shake the status quo fund it properly as it's these 4 regions that have put wales on the brink of a grand slam.
Spot on
I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2019 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

which makes the union look like the bunch of self centred w*****s they always have been.

How so?

Remember, the PRB is the 4 Regions plus the WRU - PRB have discussed, agreed and set the ground rules for the new Rugby Services Agreement - they've all signed up to it together.

Now one team has failed to achieve the financial conditions, for whatever reasons, and risks being excluded. They've got a chance to sort themselves out now, but it's a short window of opportunity, and it's not clear whether they have the will or the wherewithal to make it happen with their current leadership.

Instead of trying to fight the union, everyone needs to understand that we're all part of the problem and the solution, otherwise the good old Welsh blame game goes on and all the infighting will tear it apart.
i'm assuming the one team being the ospreys?yet the other team that is a pile of rubbish is being propped up by the governing body,yet the self same governing body are willing to take a punt and spend money on a venture in north wales that even stevie wonder can see is doomed to fail,it has taken 15 years to get where we are now and instead of trying to shake the status quo fund it properly as it's these 4 regions that have put wales on the brink of a grand slam.

true
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NobbySosban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2019 at 10:22am
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

i'm assuming the one team being the ospreys?yet the other team that is a pile of rubbish is being propped up by the governing body,yet the self same governing body are willing to take a punt and spend money on a venture in north wales that even stevie wonder can see is doomed to fail,it has taken 15 years to get where we are now and instead of trying to shake the status quo fund it properly as it's these 4 regions that have put wales on the brink of a grand slam.

Entirely valid. But if the maximum budget available is, say, £25m, how do you cut the cake? That's the hard discussion that's now being had within PRB...
  • 2 x full fat @ £8m each + 2 skimmed WRU-owned development teams @ £4.5m each
  • 3 x semi-skimmed @ £7m each + powdered milk @ £4m
  • all 4 @ £6.25m each - Coffee Mate and doomed to mediocrity
Business case for pro RGC is incredibly flaky - I just don't see how it could stack up, unless Gog benefactors suddenly appear with a long-term commitment - but if an existing region is on the brink, the North Wales option comes into play as a 'well, we might as well' option, even if it's just being used as a stalking horse for now.

It's pointless any pro team or supporter squealing or [beep]ging off the WRU now - we're all part of the problem, and the top brass, collectively, need to create the solution. I hope a plan can be formulated for the Os, and that they have the right people in charge to make the changes they need and secure new investment to stay in the game, but it needs to happen soon otherwise Compass Rugby may become a reality.
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