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Jones2004 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2022 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

So we have a choice of someone who is going to reduce taxation immediately or someone who will do it as soon as he can. Well that is really helpful to those in society who cannot afford to eat properly and look ahead with dread to what the Autumn/winter brings. In addition our NHS and social care system is broken & guess what who suffers?????

I have personal, recent experience of trying to help our elderly neighbours who are reaching the stage where they cannot safely look after themselves. My wife met one of the social services team & explained what help we were giving them with hygiene, medication & meals which we felt should be supplied by a social care system to be told that not a lot was available due to lack of staff/resources. people all over the country are waiting hours for ambulances to arrive, thousands are being given urgent A&E treatment in ambulances in car parks which contributes to the wait for other vulnerable people & all the while we have two tory MP's who are arguing about when is the right time to cut taxes and reduce the cost of the State. 

FFS wake up and see the reality of where being one of the top 5 richest countries in the World has got us to - rampant inflation, NHS & social care system broken almost beyond repair, food bank usage at his highest level ever & we have muppets in our government who tell us we have never had it so good!!!!!

We need a government in waiting to stand up and give us some real levelling up policies at the same time spelling out the terrible truth that you cannot have World class education, NHS & social care in a society where people are living longer without paying for it. Rant over!!!!!!
Social care is probably the biggest problem the country faces, but only a minority of the country has to deal with it and so politicians (including the last Labour government) have decided that it’s easier to do nothing about it. However it has become steadily worse over the last decade and has now reached crisis point. The problems with social care are also heavily impacting the NHS (as people can’t be discharged from hospitals as there are no carers available), and contributing to the shocking waiting list and A&E response times. While money won’t solve everything it’s blindingly obvious that enough of it will solve most problems (if carers are paid less than Amazon workers why would someone become a carer). There’s a real debate to be had about if it’s fair to tax the young more to fund the social care of the elderly, or if some type of inheritance / wealth tax, or higher taxes on private pensions, are fairer (and realistic) ways of paying for it. However to pretend that tax cuts is what we need is absurd. We need tax rises to fund increased social care - what taxes need to rise is what Sunak and Truss should be debating. 
It should also be noted that while the Tories talk about tax cuts growing the economy, sorting social care would probably have a much greater economic impact. How many hours of work are lost each year because people (mostly women) have to care for their elderly parents? Getting carers to care, and allowing the children of elderly people to work would have a much greater economic impact than any tax cuts. And yet this government won’t do a thing because of ‘small state’. The unbelievable thing however is that Labour has no real alternative plan (or at least haven’t actually said what their plan is). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ap sior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2022 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

So we have a choice of someone who is going to reduce taxation immediately or someone who will do it as soon as he can. Well that is really helpful to those in society who cannot afford to eat properly and look ahead with dread to what the Autumn/winter brings. In addition our NHS and social care system is broken & guess what who suffers?????

I have personal, recent experience of trying to help our elderly neighbours who are reaching the stage where they cannot safely look after themselves. My wife met one of the social services team & explained what help we were giving them with hygiene, medication & meals which we felt should be supplied by a social care system to be told that not a lot was available due to lack of staff/resources. people all over the country are waiting hours for ambulances to arrive, thousands are being given urgent A&E treatment in ambulances in car parks which contributes to the wait for other vulnerable people & all the while we have two tory MP's who are arguing about when is the right time to cut taxes and reduce the cost of the State. 

FFS wake up and see the reality of where being one of the top 5 richest countries in the World has got us to - rampant inflation, NHS & social care system broken almost beyond repair, food bank usage at his highest level ever & we have muppets in our government who tell us we have never had it so good!!!!!

We need a government in waiting to stand up and give us some real levelling up policies at the same time spelling out the terrible truth that you cannot have World class education, NHS & social care in a society where people are living longer without paying for it. Rant over!!!!!!
Social care is probably the biggest problem the country faces, but only a minority of the country has to deal with it and so politicians (including the last Labour government) have decided that it’s easier to do nothing about it. However it has become steadily worse over the last decade and has now reached crisis point. The problems with social care are also heavily impacting the NHS (as people can’t be discharged from hospitals as there are no carers available), and contributing to the shocking waiting list and A&E response times. While money won’t solve everything it’s blindingly obvious that enough of it will solve most problems (if carers are paid less than Amazon workers why would someone become a carer). There’s a real debate to be had about if it’s fair to tax the young more to fund the social care of the elderly, or if some type of inheritance / wealth tax, or higher taxes on private pensions, are fairer (and realistic) ways of paying for it. However to pretend that tax cuts is what we need is absurd. We need tax rises to fund increased social care - what taxes need to rise is what Sunak and Truss should be debating. 
It should also be noted that while the Tories talk about tax cuts growing the economy, sorting social care would probably have a much greater economic impact. How many hours of work are lost each year because people (mostly women) have to care for their elderly parents? Getting carers to care, and allowing the children of elderly people to work would have a much greater economic impact than any tax cuts. And yet this government won’t do a thing because of ‘small state’. The unbelievable thing however is that Labour has no real alternative plan (or at least haven’t actually said what their plan is). 

I agree with much of what you say however, 

1. pay for carers needs to rise so that we can recruit more. Perhaps we need to allow some level of immigration so that we can recruit outside of the UK. Many carers have repatriated as a result of Brexit. 

2. I'm not sure that I agree with tax rises, or atleast we must very v=careful where that money is raised. Many face th eat/heat quandary, and whilst we don't necessarily need heat at the moment, that need will return, so to speak, when the winteer arrives. There is also, by all accounts, going to be another hike in energy prices before the next winter.

3. Long term, we really must invest in nurses doctors and health care workers generally. 'The wealth of an economy depends on the health of its workers'. The Tories are still blaming Labour on this one. It will be a shock to some tories when they realise that they have been in power for the last 12 years. It takes about 3/4 years to recruit and train a nurse, and about 5/6 years to train and recruit a doctor. So in 12 years they could have trained 2 doctors and 3/4 nurses. (You get my drift).

4. As many have pointed out, we have inflation and pay for workers has been realatively low for a number of years. So this particular round of inflation has not been wage led it seems. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2022 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

So we have a choice of someone who is going to reduce taxation immediately or someone who will do it as soon as he can. Well that is really helpful to those in society who cannot afford to eat properly and look ahead with dread to what the Autumn/winter brings. In addition our NHS and social care system is broken & guess what who suffers?????

I have personal, recent experience of trying to help our elderly neighbours who are reaching the stage where they cannot safely look after themselves. My wife met one of the social services team & explained what help we were giving them with hygiene, medication & meals which we felt should be supplied by a social care system to be told that not a lot was available due to lack of staff/resources. people all over the country are waiting hours for ambulances to arrive, thousands are being given urgent A&E treatment in ambulances in car parks which contributes to the wait for other vulnerable people & all the while we have two tory MP's who are arguing about when is the right time to cut taxes and reduce the cost of the State. 

FFS wake up and see the reality of where being one of the top 5 richest countries in the World has got us to - rampant inflation, NHS & social care system broken almost beyond repair, food bank usage at his highest level ever & we have muppets in our government who tell us we have never had it so good!!!!!

We need a government in waiting to stand up and give us some real levelling up policies at the same time spelling out the terrible truth that you cannot have World class education, NHS & social care in a society where people are living longer without paying for it. Rant over!!!!!!
Social care is probably the biggest problem the country faces, but only a minority of the country has to deal with it and so politicians (including the last Labour government) have decided that it’s easier to do nothing about it. However it has become steadily worse over the last decade and has now reached crisis point. The problems with social care are also heavily impacting the NHS (as people can’t be discharged from hospitals as there are no carers available), and contributing to the shocking waiting list and A&E response times. While money won’t solve everything it’s blindingly obvious that enough of it will solve most problems (if carers are paid less than Amazon workers why would someone become a carer). There’s a real debate to be had about if it’s fair to tax the young more to fund the social care of the elderly, or if some type of inheritance / wealth tax, or higher taxes on private pensions, are fairer (and realistic) ways of paying for it. However to pretend that tax cuts is what we need is absurd. We need tax rises to fund increased social care - what taxes need to rise is what Sunak and Truss should be debating. 
It should also be noted that while the Tories talk about tax cuts growing the economy, sorting social care would probably have a much greater economic impact. How many hours of work are lost each year because people (mostly women) have to care for their elderly parents? Getting carers to care, and allowing the children of elderly people to work would have a much greater economic impact than any tax cuts. And yet this government won’t do a thing because of ‘small state’. The unbelievable thing however is that Labour has no real alternative plan (or at least haven’t actually said what their plan is). 

I agree with much of what you say however, 

1. pay for carers needs to rise so that we can recruit more. Perhaps we need to allow some level of immigration so that we can recruit outside of the UK. Many carers have repatriated as a result of Brexit. 

2. I'm not sure that I agree with tax rises, or atleast we must very v=careful where that money is raised. Many face th eat/heat quandary, and whilst we don't necessarily need heat at the moment, that need will return, so to speak, when the winteer arrives. There is also, by all accounts, going to be another hike in energy prices before the next winter.

3. Long term, we really must invest in nurses doctors and health care workers generally. 'The wealth of an economy depends on the health of its workers'. The Tories are still blaming Labour on this one. It will be a shock to some tories when they realise that they have been in power for the last 12 years. It takes about 3/4 years to recruit and train a nurse, and about 5/6 years to train and recruit a doctor. So in 12 years they could have trained 2 doctors and 3/4 nurses. (You get my drift).

4. As many have pointed out, we have inflation and pay for workers has been realatively low for a number of years. So this particular round of inflation has not been wage led it seems. 
I’ll reply to your points in the order you made them:

1 - absolutely agree that carers pay needs to increase (that’s why I made the point about them being able to earn more at Amazon), but to do that you have to have either more money in the system, or less carers. Clearly there’s already too few carers so more money needs to be poured into the care system. Of course allowing immigration is part of the solution, but we can’t rely on just that. 

2 - I’ve explained in point 1 why I think more money needs to go into the care system, but to do that you either need more government borrowing or higher taxes. I think government borrowing should only be done either to invest, or for one off events (such as covid). Therefore the only other way to achieve a pay rise for carers would be increasing taxes. Clearly they should be increased in a way that targets high earners, and not those who are struggling with increased energy bills. 

3 - Absolutely that should be done, and should’ve been done over the last decade. However training doctors and nurses takes time, and won’t solve the current backlog. Training care workers takes a lot less time, and could make a substantial difference to the amount of time it takes to clear the current NHS backlog. 

4 - Completely agree. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2022 at 5:44pm
The only way to sort is to go full logan run! Adios folks was nice knowing youWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2022 at 7:50pm
I think I agree with Sunak that we probably shouldn’t cut taxes before sorting out inflation. 

I have asked friends how cutting taxes (AKA giving working people more money per month) would help limit impact inflation and no one can give me a good explanation how it would - anyone on here want to help me out?

I get the sense that Liz Truss is a nutter and one of those really annoying Tories who can rile up her crowd and her base but is actually a bit of a moron.

I tend to disagree with posters on here as to what the biggest problem is and I’d say it’s U.K. wide productivity - and I think the biggest barriers to that are Housing supply, specifically in the South East of England, and low fertility/population growth. 

I don’t think the country wants more mass migration (at least enough of the population that votes doesn’t) and fertility policies don’t seem to work without a mass rediscovery of an old religion.

What I’m saying is Sunak or Truss need to build some houses in Surrey or everyone will have to become Mormons.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2022 at 8:13pm
Sunak would be the youngest PM since 1812
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoppy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2022 at 8:43pm
BBC 1 Tonight 9PM our next prime minister debate with our two candidates 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2022 at 2:39pm
Don't let them pull the same trick as before - the Tory party will cut taxes for the rich, but refuse to do anything (much) to help the lower paid.

"Levelling up"? You could have fooled me - "levelling down" is what it looks like on the ground.

Politics these days seems all about slogans, not policies. Empty words.
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2022 at 3:34pm
In other news: a Welsh wine importer has moved to... France!

Daniel Lambert, who supplies Marks & Spencer, Waitrose and 300 independent retailers, is moving to Montpellier in France later this week with his wife and two teenage children.

There he will set up a French company to export back to his own company in Wales.

He said the only way he could get around the “incredibly complicated” paperwork for importing alcohol was to establish a French company to export into the UK, and do the administration in the EU himself....

“It is absolutely incredible that in the 21st century people are being, in effect, barred from importing from Europe unless they pay brokers lots of money,” he said.

He described the UK government’s claims that Brexit was done as “fatuous”, as many small- to medium-sized businesses could not cope with trade barriers that now exist for anyone trading with Europe.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/26/british-wine-wholesaler-leave-uk-over-post-brexit-paperwork

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote salmidach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2022 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

I think I agree with Sunak that we probably shouldn’t cut taxes before sorting out inflation. 

I have asked friends how cutting taxes (AKA giving working people more money per month) would help limit impact inflation and no one can give me a good explanation how it would - anyone on here want to help me out?

I get the sense that Liz Truss is a nutter and one of those really annoying Tories who can rile up her crowd and her base but is actually a bit of a moron.

I tend to disagree with posters on here as to what the biggest problem is and I’d say it’s U.K. wide productivity - and I think the biggest barriers to that are Housing supply, specifically in the South East of England, and low fertility/population growth. 

I don’t think the country wants more mass migration (at least enough of the population that votes doesn’t) and fertility policies don’t seem to work without a mass rediscovery of an old religion.

What I’m saying is Sunak or Truss need to build some houses in Surrey or everyone will have to become Mormons.

Cutting VAT by 5% will not increase inflation as it cuts all products across the board.
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance - Terry Pratchett
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2022 at 7:47pm
Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

I have asked friends how cutting taxes (AKA giving working people more money per month) would help limit impact inflation and no one can give me a good explanation how it would

Cutting VAT by 5% will not increase inflation as it cuts all products across the board.

So thinking there is that with everyone having to spend a decent chunk of their money on energy soon, they then won’t be able to spend that on other parts of the economy cause it’s going on a fixed cost - so reducing VAT would help people continue spending money out and about and offset the reduction that will likely happen anyway. 

Sounds plausible. 

I guess the definition of VAT is that these things aren’t essential so would be a weird place to start but I sort of understand the logic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote salmidach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2022 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

I have asked friends how cutting taxes (AKA giving working people more money per month) would help limit impact inflation and no one can give me a good explanation how it would

Cutting VAT by 5% will not increase inflation as it cuts all products across the board.

So thinking there is that with everyone having to spend a decent chunk of their money on energy soon, they then won’t be able to spend that on other parts of the economy cause it’s going on a fixed cost - so reducing VAT would help people continue spending money out and about and offset the reduction that will likely happen anyway. 

Sounds plausible. 

I guess the definition of VAT is that these things aren’t essential so would be a weird place to start but I sort of understand the logic.

I'm pretty sure that energy and most foods are essential....
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance - Terry Pratchett
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote salmidach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2022 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

I have asked friends how cutting taxes (AKA giving working people more money per month) would help limit impact inflation and no one can give me a good explanation how it would

Cutting VAT by 5% will not increase inflation as it cuts all products across the board.

So thinking there is that with everyone having to spend a decent chunk of their money on energy soon, they then won’t be able to spend that on other parts of the economy cause it’s going on a fixed cost - so reducing VAT would help people continue spending money out and about and offset the reduction that will likely happen anyway. 

Sounds plausible. 

I guess the definition of VAT is that these things aren’t essential so would be a weird place to start but I sort of understand the logic.

I'm pretty sure that energy and most foods are essential....

the majority of food that we buy in supermarkets is VAT free. but the process of production and delivery isn't so the prices go up because of this.

By making an overall cut of 5% on VAT it will reduce overheads, thus reducing the cost of foods.

To beat inflation we need to have more money in our pockets to stave off recession. 

I can't stand Truss (or Sunak for that matter), but she is right on this. we need to spend our way out of recession. There's been that old age line of thinking, the best time to invest is when growth is slowing as it produces more growth.


Edited by salmidach - 28 July 2022 at 12:14pm
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance - Terry Pratchett
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Legendinmybathroom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2022 at 7:44pm
So we are down to 2 candidates, one who has stated that we can’t afford tax cuts and public sector pay rises close to the inflation rate and another who is promising everything but without any clear vision of where these promises will come from and how we will fund them, she’s already had to do a u-turn on one of her key promises.
We are doomed either way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2022 at 10:43pm
Truss is Johnson 2 1/2: The smell of cheese.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 August 2022 at 12:01pm
And did Truss actually say that Brexit had caused no disruption? 

Even Rees-Mogg admitted he can sometimes acknowledge reality.

I just don't really understand why they aren't held to account for their blatant lying. I hoped it would end with Johnson but how naive I was and we are now looking at the realistic possibility of someone just as bad.

Their whole Thatcher-worshipping cult is just weird and I also look forward to their next wave of imagined enemies who they steer everyone to blame for their own failings. The EU, the French, the poor, the woke, intellectuals (I can see why they dislike these in particular), the Russians, the Chinese... 
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