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GPR - Rochester View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 September 2022 at 7:51am
Originally posted by Legendinmybathroom Legendinmybathroom wrote:

That’s not what I’m saying.  The cost of the bailout is expected to be around 150 billion to the tax payers off the UK - so we will give you the money now (to survive) but you will pay it back over the next 30-40 years in taxes.
At the same time, many energy experts and scholars have estimated that the gas and energy companies would have made somewhere between 100 and 150 billion in profits by the end of 2023, without having to have lifted a finger to do so.
So labour’s suggestion of getting those companies to pick up most of that cost in the form of another windfall tax would seem reasonable and fair to most people (who are currently really struggling).
However, even labour would have to find some extra money to cover the total cost of the bailout, but obviously they wouldn’t be burdened the tax payers with the full amount.

On a more somber note, I would like to pay my respect to HRH Queen Elizabeth, and my condolences go her family.  The way she carried out her duties to the country and the commonwealth was exemplary, if only certain people in high office conducted themselves in the same manor in which she did, the world would be a much greater place to live in.


Good post legend. It is so simple a policy it hardly takes anytime to work it through. Allow energy producers to maintain their profits at pre price hike levels and tax the rest. That would probably bring in two thirds of the cost going forward saving future generations from a huge repayment. However the cronyism which reached new heights under Boris is alive & well in former Shell/BP? employee Liz Truss. 

As to your comments on the Queen I would never describe myself as a monarchist but I can spot a public servant when I see one. She will be sorely missed. 
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dr_martinov View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 September 2022 at 5:17pm
Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

Originally posted by Legendinmybathroom Legendinmybathroom wrote:

The money is coming from state borrowing, so that means the tax payers will be paying for this bailout for the next 30-40 years (so our children and grandchildren).  Truss and her generation will not be paying it back, and neither will the CEOs of the energy companies who will receive huge dividends from the 150billion pound profits they are expected to make in over the next 18 months or so.  Profits from not doing anything at all but profiteering from the global energy crisis and the way the Tory government structures the way the energy companies (in particular) can charge the consumer for gas and electricity.
How on earth is it right that energy companies (who produce renewable energy only) are allowed to charge consumers at the rate of those who produce electricity using oil fired power stations.  
It was mentioned yesterday on politics live that Liz Truss was a former executive of BP, if that is correct (even if it was as a non elected member) that is in anyones eyes would be seen as a conflict of interests.
On top of that, there was also talk yesterday that the new Tory government were trying to change the terms in which the investigation into whether BOJO mislead parliament over partygate.  If true, then I believe all faith in politics will be lost as one of the downfalls for BOJO ministerial position was his attempt to change the rules to cover his friend Owen Paterson.

So if Labour do it tax payers don’t pay?

Labour proposed raising £8 billion from a windfall tax, so from the profits of the energy companies. Trying to find the details, I think Truss' proposal is to transfer £150bn of borrowed money to energy suppliers to combat the cost of energy crisis. As that money is borrowed it is essentially going to be on the taxpayers to return it in future years. Or the UK to be declared bankrupt and debts erased. Or a government to sell off something very pricey to raise the funds.

But there's a pretty big difference between 150 and 8 billion and I also don't know where would Labour differs to make up the rest or did their plan also have substantial borrowing involved? So perhaps the windfall tax is a bit of a soundbyte and both are more similar than it comes across. 

You're completely right though, what happens when the cost of something simply goes up loads? It's a bit of an issue when that thing is needed to keep people alive and so what should a government do? This is why libertarian ones get into sticky situations as they fundamentally think it's on each individual, so are saying things like people should buy more jumpers and cook meals that cost 30p and so on (all of which have been suggested by Conservative MPs as solutions to the cost of energy crisis). We could legitimately look at energy rationing as well, I think Germany is doing this, not sure why that hasn't been suggested but we can all make sacrifices for the greater good but this certainly isn't within the current Government's approach or their voter base, so I doubt it will happen.

Another thing it's not just the rate these energy companies have put up but also the standing charge... that starts to look a bit like profiteering. Exactly what you would expect in a free market but the companies offering cheaper went bust so it appears ring fenced now as we don't have options do we?

Interestingly during her leadership campaign, Truss said there would be no handouts to help with energy crisis. Within days of winning she was then forced into a U turn on this and actually took on most of what Labour proposed. Sunak was more honest about what he'd do... and so lost. I've completely gone off optimism, it's just BS to me now. But it seems the lady is for turning.... (see Truss, I can make Thatcher references as well!)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Legendinmybathroom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 September 2022 at 7:10pm
I would expect  any windfall tax making far more than £8 billion, the previous windfall tax raised around £12 billion and that was based on far more moderate quarterly profits, the profits of all the companies in the last quarter have dwarfed the profits made previously.
Also another way of saving £6 billion would be to stop paying the energy companies who own and run wind farms their yearly renewable subsidies, or change the rate in which they charge their customers to take account of the fact that they produce their energy at a vastly reduced price to other forms of energy.
It surely can’t be right that these companies can make huge profits from the way that energy prices are set (despite them using natural resources), whilst also getting over £6 billion per annum in government subsidies.  The renewable energy companies are making the greatest profits form this crisis, yet are still receiving government handouts.
I wonder if the fact that Truss was an executive at BP has anything to do with her reluctance to impose any more windfall taxes.
A combination of windfall taxes, a change in the way the cost of a unit of energy is calculated, and a tightening up of the way these companies are able to claim government subsidies and offset profits against future development costs (loopholes), could raise well in excess of £50 billion, that would be a great starting point, taking a huge chunk off the tax burden of millions of tax payers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 September 2022 at 10:23am
Trying to escape the collective madness the media is forcing upon us all to celebrate tax-dodging billionaires with some pretty sordid behaviours that are above the law, looks like one of Truss's government first acts will be to get rid of the limit on bankers' bonuses. It's currently set to twice their annual salaries. 

I smell another U turn ahead...

Will anyone notice at the moment though? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 September 2022 at 11:05am
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Trying to escape the collective madness the media is forcing upon us all to celebrate tax-dodging billionaires with some pretty sordid behaviours that are above the law, looks like one of Truss's government first acts will be to get rid of the limit on bankers' bonuses. It's currently set to twice their annual salaries. 

I smell another U turn ahead...

Will anyone notice at the moment though? 

The very same bankers many of whom should have been doing time as a result of the 2008/09 financial collapse - as I keep saying funny old world!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 September 2022 at 11:17am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Trying to escape the collective madness the media is forcing upon us all to celebrate tax-dodging billionaires with some pretty sordid behaviours that are above the law, looks like one of Truss's government first acts will be to get rid of the limit on bankers' bonuses. It's currently set to twice their annual salaries. 

I smell another U turn ahead...

Will anyone notice at the moment though? 

The very same bankers many of whom should have been doing time as a result of the 2008/09 financial collapse - as I keep saying funny old world!!!!

Facilitated by a certain B-word the UK is now free to become the most corrupt country going!

I still think they'll backtrack as it really doesn't come across well during a cost of living crisis and mass strike action over low pay does it?

Ah and Theresa Coffey is already providing entertainment. You know I often said there should be more scientists in politics? In Trussian style, this statement was misquoted and misunderstood, despite the fact I personally said it. LOL 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 September 2022 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Trying to escape the collective madness the media is forcing upon us all to celebrate tax-dodging billionaires with some pretty sordid behaviours that are above the law, looks like one of Truss's government first acts will be to get rid of the limit on bankers' bonuses. It's currently set to twice their annual salaries. 

I smell another U turn ahead...

Will anyone notice at the moment though? 

Dare I say it for some unscrupulous politicians this may be a good time to bury such news
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Legendinmybathroom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 September 2022 at 4:13pm
As detestable and sneaky as it is, it’s very true.  Lots of people wouldn’t have seen or been interested in anything other than her majesty’s death and Charles becoming king.  So considering removing the bonuses cap on bankers and u-turning on the obesity policies set out by the previous government is likely to be far from many voters minds just now and is less likely to face as much of a backlash as it may of had a few weeks ago or if it was announced in a few months time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 September 2022 at 3:42am
she was also considering reducing vat a few ago too, allegedly. Alas it seems shes only reducing taxes for the big corporations and billionaires , but not for the masses. What a surprise. Maybes her main politician ambition is to out thatcher thatcher
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 September 2022 at 9:53am
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

she was also considering reducing vat a few ago too, allegedly. Alas it seems shes only reducing taxes for the big corporations and billionaires , but not for the masses. What a surprise. Maybes her main politician ambition is to out thatcher thatcher

Yes, that's it in a nutshell and it's looking brutal. I'll try to be objective on the following list but you have: A cost of living crisis, the negative impact of reduced trade with the EU from Brexit, financial deficit from Covid pandemic and Ukraine-Russia war, continued increase of wealth gap, increased numbers of Brits living in poverty, an NHS in a severely underfunded state, high inflation, a weak pound, and her early moves are:

Borrow money (that the public will have to repay) that disproportionately favours wealthier folk
Remove cap on bankers' bonuses
Cutting taxes - again, in a way that disproportionately favours well off

So it's pure trickle down economics with almost a 100% focus on growth of the economy. She even accompanied this with a statement that "fairness is inherently an argument of the left", which was interesting.

There is a plus side in that she is being more honest about things than her predecessor, even stating she is fine being disliked. This means we can now at least discuss the effects of policies, different approaches etc, rather than endless personality issues around Johnson's lies and character failings. It's early days yet I suppose but I personally look back to the effects of Reaganism and Thatcherism of the 80s as largely leading to the mess we find ourselves in now but there you go, Truss and her team clearly disagree.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 September 2022 at 10:08am
One benefit seems to be is that we all know what/who we are dealing with. As you have pointed out Dr M her solutions to the deep crisis we find ourselves in is to attempt to grow our way out of it with huge borrowings apparently being paid for by increases in tax revenues brought about by economic growth - where have I heard that before!!!!!

Of the reasons you give for our current predicament I will choose to overlook your cunning brexit reference as, for me, any arguments surrounding the economic benefits or not of brexit have been well & truly swallowed up by the catastrophic effects of covid and the energy crisis. 

Gone, of course, is Boris' great plan & vote winner namely levelling up - Truss is clear - us the unwashed need to get on our bikes and get our hands dirty because we are clearly work shy scroungers. 

For me this clear setting out of her policies should help to make the next election choices for us unwashed middle/lower classes very easy to make. All we need now is for an opposition leader to produce alternative policies which really do introduce a levelling up agenda and the choice will be clear & stark. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oracle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 September 2022 at 11:55am
I see raynor says she likes the first past the post system and not proportional representation... it makes me wonder if labour actually want to be in power... with the backing of the greens and lib dems... we could ensure that we never get another racist tory government in power. Ever.... if labour do mess it up,  I suggest that everyone in wales vote to leave the UK,  because the alternative is to bad to contemplate
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 September 2022 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

she was also considering reducing vat a few ago too, allegedly. Alas it seems shes only reducing taxes for the big corporations and billionaires , but not for the masses. What a surprise. Maybes her main politician ambition is to out thatcher thatcher

Yes, that's it in a nutshell and it's looking brutal. I'll try to be objective on the following list but you have: A cost of living crisis, the negative impact of reduced trade with the EU from Brexit, financial deficit from Covid pandemic and Ukraine-Russia war, continued increase of wealth gap, increased numbers of Brits living in poverty, an NHS in a severely underfunded state, high inflation, a weak pound, and her early moves are:

Borrow money (that the public will have to repay) that disproportionately favours wealthier folk
Remove cap on bankers' bonuses
Cutting taxes - again, in a way that disproportionately favours well off

So it's pure trickle down economics with almost a 100% focus on growth of the economy. She even accompanied this with a statement that "fairness is inherently an argument of the left", which was interesting.

There is a plus side in that she is being more honest about things than her predecessor, even stating she is fine being disliked. This means we can now at least discuss the effects of policies, different approaches etc, rather than endless personality issues around Johnson's lies and character failings. It's early days yet I suppose but I personally look back to the effects of Reaganism and Thatcherism of the 80s as largely leading to the mess we find ourselves in now but there you go, Truss and her team clearly disagree.

The critical and crucial part is that she is growing it from the top down, not from the bottom up
no talk whatsoever about helping sme's nor about closing the infinite tax, tariffs and licensing loopholes that allows the massive corporations to wipe out all competition and pay peanuts into the treasury 
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoppy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 September 2022 at 5:18pm
Question time tonight will be interesting to hear the panel debate about the cost of living crisis and energy crisis 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oracle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 September 2022 at 7:06pm
Question time is so poor now that the crowd is hand picked from the tory party council Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 September 2022 at 10:27am
This mini-budget confirms exactly what they said they'd do: massive tax cuts that favour the rich. Including abolishing the 45% income tax rate for the highest earners so very nice for those bankers who've just had the limit on their bonuses removed (which was twice their annual salaries so not exactly peanuts).

We are heading to a financial black hole here where the top 1% will profit massively. It's a smash and grab for the next 2 years. Note Kwertang also mentioned they are going to make it harder for workers to strike as well. Combined with their anti-protest laws of the previous Tory regime, a worrying picture is painted no?

It's an absolute open goal for Labour - this budget and Truss' policies are literally only in the interests of 1-10% of the voting population (as I am subjectively saying that I think trickle down economics is bollocks).


Edited by dr_martinov - 23 September 2022 at 10:48am
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