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Pension Riots in France

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    Posted: 24 March 2023 at 8:32pm
Interesting to see that the riot police have removed their helmets and are sideing with the protestors....Nice to see 

Edited by Oracle - 24 March 2023 at 8:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lofty evans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2023 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by Oracle Oracle wrote:

Interesting to see that the riot police have removed their helmets and are sideing with the protestors....Nice to see 

At least the French are making a protest...this Country rises the retirement age to another couple of years and it's a case of which way Sir. We are a internally feeble....yet if we are threatened we are the opposite....mad as hell it is.


In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty"

"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oracle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2023 at 10:34pm
Viva la revolution
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lofty evans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2023 at 10:39pm
Originally posted by Oracle Oracle wrote:

Viva la revolution

I wish we'd wake up.


In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty"

"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2023 at 12:28am
Originally posted by lofty evans lofty evans wrote:

Originally posted by Oracle Oracle wrote:

Viva la revolution

I wish we'd wake up.



Preach Lofty, preach Hug

Too many people accept what is called "received wisdom" but is only the tone set or the framing provided by those who leach off our backs. The UK is an old boys club but people cannot conceive of what is outside their normative experience or are at best frightened of change. We have instead a state and political system with it's roots in the old feudal Norman Kingdom that grew to become an Empire then collapsed. It's still collapsing now. It's left us with a Frankenstein State, a scrapbook, back of a cigarette packet constitution, and a class consciousness more ubiquitous than sheep s**t on a hill farm. 

Look at the way the far right infested the public sphere. Do you remember the old National Front posters? "Stop Imigration, Reject Common Market, Restore capital punishment, Make Britain great again, Scrap overseas aid, Rebuild our armed forces. Vote National Front". There is a direct straight line from there through the BNP and on to Farage and UKIP. And look at the Tories now. I've heard different Tory MP's championing one or more of those policies on various occasions. This has framed our politics for nearly 50 years now. Think of the bile the Daily Mail and Telegraph etc pump out. So we end up with a known liar who treats democracy and Parliament with contempt as PM with a whopping majority on the back of a frenzy of voters who were hoping for much of what the NF were campaigning for all those years ago. Now he's bumbled his way out of No.10 he's left behind one of the most odious Home Secretaries I've ever known on a callous campaign to scapegoat immigrants as they look to manipulate the "manufactured consent" on this to secure votes.

We need a different framing to our public discourse. Here's a small step in the right direction ... Immigration isn't a "bad thing." Another ... Europe isnt a "bad thing." Perhaps when we finally ditch the right wing narratives that have poisoned the public sphere for so long we can finally have the sort of politics the public desperately needs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2023 at 12:37am
.

Edited by RR1972 - 25 March 2023 at 12:51am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oracle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2023 at 9:02am
ClapClap
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by lofty evans lofty evans wrote:

Originally posted by Oracle Oracle wrote:

Viva la revolution

I wish we'd wake up.



Preach Lofty, preach Hug

Too many people accept what is called "received wisdom" but is only the tone set or the framing provided by those who leach off our backs. The UK is an old boys club but people cannot conceive of what is outside their normative experience or are at best frightened of change. We have instead a state and political system with it's roots in the old feudal Norman Kingdom that grew to become an Empire then collapsed. It's still collapsing now. It's left us with a Frankenstein State, a scrapbook, back of a cigarette packet constitution, and a class consciousness more ubiquitous than sheep s**t on a hill farm. 

Look at the way the far right infested the public sphere. Do you remember the old National Front posters? "Stop Imigration, Reject Common Market, Restore capital punishment, Make Britain great again, Scrap overseas aid, Rebuild our armed forces. Vote National Front". There is a direct straight line from there through the BNP and on to Farage and UKIP. And look at the Tories now. I've heard different Tory MP's championing one or more of those policies on various occasions. This has framed our politics for nearly 50 years now. Think of the bile the Daily Mail and Telegraph etc pump out. So we end up with a known liar who treats democracy and Parliament with contempt as PM with a whopping majority on the back of a frenzy of voters who were hoping for much of what the NF were campaigning for all those years ago. Now he's bumbled his way out of No.10 he's left behind one of the most odious Home Secretaries I've ever known on a callous campaign to scapegoat immigrants as they look to manipulate the "manufactured consent" on this to secure votes.

We need a different framing to our public discourse. Here's a small step in the right direction ... Immigration isn't a "bad thing." Another ... Europe isnt a "bad thing." Perhaps when we finally ditch the right wing narratives that have poisoned the public sphere for so long we can finally have the sort of politics the public desperately needs.

ClapClapClap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2023 at 9:28am
So the narrative appears to be that we have the right wing press combined with an electorate, or at least a sizeable minority of that electorate, who cannot be trusted to make their own minds up on who is best qualified to represent them. 

If this is the case how do we fix this system. Curtailing the powers of the "free" press is a tricky task. Certainly restrictions on political articles could be introduced in the run up to elections & ownership rules could be drastically tightened. Some form of proportional representation must be introduced to at least give every voter an incentive to take part - I support making voting compulsory as long, of course, as each vote does really count. Once we can establish a much fairer system we can then look to devolve power away from Westminster.

This is, of course, no quick fix but the solution has to start somewhere. TBS you state that the system is collapsing - I tend to agree but if a system is collapsing & the wealth gap is widening which it surely is how can we support spending 100's of millions on overseas aid when we have more homeless people and the use of foodbanks is at record levels. We have a population many of which are struggling yet we still appear to want to walk the walk of our Empire status. For me this is a dilemma.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2023 at 9:30am
Where are the riot police joining with protestors? It’s all over social media they are battering the protestors. 

Edited by RR1972 - 25 March 2023 at 9:32am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2023 at 9:34am
You can’t gag the press the mail is right wing no one has to buy it the morning star is left wing no one has to buy it. If people don’t want to read a  paper no one forces them to do it, it’s called freedom of choice . I  don’t want to get into any personal spats but looking at the torys run of succes the brexit result, the uk is in the main a centre / centre right country and that is where we are at. If labour want to win a ge they have to win the centre ground and lots of voters there support a well finamced military and the return of hamging for some offences not that this will ever happen

Edited by RR1972 - 25 March 2023 at 9:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2023 at 9:55am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

You can’t gag the press the mail is right wing no one has to buy it the morning star is left wing no one has to buy it. If people don’t want to read a  paper no one forces them to do it, it’s called freedom of choice . I  don’t want to get into any personal spats but looking at the torys run of succes the brexit result, the uk is in the main a centre / centre right country and that is where we are at. If labour want to win a ge they have to win the centre ground and lots of voters there support a well finamced military and the return of hamging for some offences not that this will ever happen

I understand the difficulty in attempting to limit the press but a blanket restriction at certain times in the election cycle regardless of wing could work. I totally appreciate that what someone reads is their choice but we are being presented with a narrative that says the right wing press has an undue influence on voters. If we believe that should we not act? 

As for Labour winning the centre ground I agree. Blair made no apology for placing himself & his policies firmly in the centre & he had more success than any other post war Labour leader. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2023 at 10:02am
Imo it’s a lazy trope and just a weak excuse  to say people vote because of the right wing media, most people don’t even buy papers . Those who buy the mail are already right wing leaning it’s why they buy the paper. Maybe the left leaning parties should follow how people vote and listen to their concerns abd adapt accordingly, you don’t win votes by telling people they are thick right wing bigots (even if you believe they are) you have to get them onside . You can’t change anything in opposition
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2023 at 10:03am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

So the narrative appears to be that we have the right wing press combined with an electorate, or at least a sizeable minority of that electorate, who cannot be trusted to make their own minds up on who is best qualified to represent them. 

If this is the case how do we fix this system. Curtailing the powers of the "free" press is a tricky task. Certainly restrictions on political articles could be introduced in the run up to elections & ownership rules could be drastically tightened. Some form of proportional representation must be introduced to at least give every voter an incentive to take part - I support making voting compulsory as long, of course, as each vote does really count. Once we can establish a much fairer system we can then look to devolve power away from Westminster.

This is, of course, no quick fix but the solution has to start somewhere. TBS you state that the system is collapsing - I tend to agree but if a system is collapsing & the wealth gap is widening which it surely is how can we support spending 100's of millions on overseas aid when we have more homeless people and the use of foodbanks is at record levels. We have a population many of which are struggling yet we still appear to want to walk the walk of our Empire status. For me this is a dilemma.

I am perfectly happy with a free press but it is worrying when people take opinions as fact. People should always question the evidence for why a columnist or journalist is making their claims and, if found to have none, they should rightly ignore their future input. This is different to bias but people should be aware a publication supports a certain political party. I can bring up a certain Boris Johnson who wrote very shaky opinion columns, including an example of making up a quote for which he was fired, and how this made him "a personality" to become an MP, Mayor of London and then Prime Minister. With the inevitable consequences. If the system was functioning correctly, he would have been discredited early on in his journalistic career for lying and his subsequent words ignored. I argue this would have been to the benefit of the UK.

Personally, if I was a DM reader and read "At last, a TRUE Tory budget" about an event that crashed the economy, I would have second thoughts about buying it again. But readerships are loyal with an aligned political stance (I read the Guardian although I don't think this has an official party alliance but is obviously left wing) and we can all see the impact of a dominant right wing press who control the narrative. Does that reflect the UK or have they shaped it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2023 at 10:07am
Blair best move was to get onsude with murdoch, it’s all about winning and he did what he had to do to win. The left often seem to want to win the debate rather than the election
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eastern outpost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2023 at 10:20am
Some background as to why the pensions dispute matters more in France than here, from my conversations with folk there. My understanding is a long way from complete so this post remains within what I believe to be correct.

In the UK, the State Pension is a much lower figure in comparison to what France provide. There, the state takes on much of the responsibility for retirement income for their population. The benefits are a proportion of your income so affect pretty much everyone, including people earning high(er) incomes.

In the UK, the provision of pensions has been a responsibility of the private sector for its employees for a very long time. In the past, there were plenty of Final Salary schemes provided by the private sector. Now, not quite hens’ teeth but close. They became too costly and brought too much responsibility for the companies running them. 

Only the public sector can be confident of a pension that is a benefit promise (near guarantee) and depending on how long worked there it can be up to 2/3rds of earnings at/nr retirement. The cost of these schemes is probably close to 40% of the pensionable earnings, a fact not really appreciated by many or valued by its members. Everyone outside the public sector contributes to the cost of these through their taxes. 

The Autoenrolment replacement schemes have derisory levels of contributions - 8% or 9% of earnings in total and the employer is only required to put in 3%. While this has brought pension contributions to people who never had them before, it has seen many companies ditching benefit promise schemes and the high contributions and responsibilities required. Sharp practice indeed and not enough (could be/was) done to stop that.

The UK has been ahead of most of Europe in understanding how much benefits cost and funding those in advance. 

France - the government have looked at how much the benefit promises are costing and have worked out it’s unaffordable, especially within the financial strictures of the € mechanism. Rather than say this is how much it costs to provide these benefits, here are the options to do that so choose one, it’s become a stand off between the govt’s can’t afford it so we’re putting in this solution and the unions and workers saying plant another magic money tree.

They could raise taxes to fund the status quo. However, no politician that wants to be re-elected is willing to risk that solution.

Changes to the UK State Pension, now about 10K a year for someone with a full NI contribution record - down from maybe 20K at the peak of SERPS (eighties, Barbara Castle’s idea possibly) are small compared to the changes in France.

The govt there used the law 49.3 to force through the retirement age changes without a vote in parliament.

The comparison to make, in my opinion is if the UK govt suddenly told all the beneficiaries of the Council staff, Teachers, NHS, Firefighters and others possibly including posties, that their benefits were going to be reduced or their normal retirement age postponed by a couple more years. We’ve seen plenty of industrial action when pension changes have been put forward by the employers. It’s never been that co-ordinated.

Living longer after retirement has to be paid for somehow and there’s no easy solution.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oracle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2023 at 10:20am
Murdoch has had huge influence over American and British politics , but he has always fuelled far right views , including support of the biggest self harm event a country has ever done (Brexit) and supported the rise of Trump ..He's currently being taken to court in the USA , so maybe his past us catching up with him 
Ironically I never understood how the owners of the express and the lies it openly prints can also own the mirror ....Can't square that circle at all 
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