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dr_martinov 
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 Posted: 25 March 2023 at 10:28am |
 RR1972 wrote:
Blair best move was to get onsude with murdoch, it’s all about winning and he did what he had to do to win. The left often seem to want to win the debate rather than the election |
Which shows the power of the press and popular vote. I really think it should be about winning the debate as you put it. But most people are busy, not hugely interested in politics or distrustful of it, find in depth discussion about things like the economy boring... So no wonder an intermediate with punchy headlines has more impact.
Also I said does our majority right wing press reflect or influence but consider why we have more right wing papers... Generally, pro-business right wing leaning people are richer (or vice versa) so have more resources and will naturally align with a right-wing pro-business anti-worker or public services party. Murdoch being case in point. There's basically a massive drift towards the money, which is usually in the hands of a very small minority. This is at massive cost for electoral choice for the majority because the amount the right invests in PR is disproportionately greater and dominates the market.
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RR1972
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Posted: 25 March 2023 at 10:35am |
Eastern outpost wrote:
Some background as to why the pensions dispute matters more in France than here, from my conversations with folk there. My understanding is a long way from complete so this post remains within what I believe to be correct.
In the UK, the State Pension is a much lower figure in comparison to what France provide. There, the state takes on much of the responsibility for retirement income for their population. The benefits are a proportion of your income so affect pretty much everyone, including people earning high(er) incomes.
In the UK, the provision of pensions has been a responsibility of the private sector for its employees for a very long time. In the past, there were plenty of Final Salary schemes provided by the private sector. Now, not quite hens’ teeth but close. They became too costly and brought too much responsibility for the companies running them.
Only the public sector can be confident of a pension that is a benefit promise (near guarantee) and depending on how long worked there it can be up to 2/3rds of earnings at/nr retirement. The cost of these schemes is probably close to 40% of the pensionable earnings, a fact not really appreciated by many or valued by its members. Everyone outside the public sector contributes to the cost of these through their taxes.
The Autoenrolment replacement schemes have derisory levels of contributions - 8% or 9% of earnings in total and the employer is only required to put in 3%. While this has brought pension contributions to people who never had them before, it has seen many companies ditching benefit promise schemes and the high contributions and responsibilities required. Sharp practice indeed and not enough (could be/was) done to stop that.
The UK has been ahead of most of Europe in understanding how much benefits cost and funding those in advance.
France - the government have looked at how much the benefit promises are costing and have worked out it’s unaffordable, especially within the financial strictures of the € mechanism. Rather than say this is how much it costs to provide these benefits, here are the options to do that so choose one, it’s become a stand off between the govt’s can’t afford it so we’re putting in this solution and the unions and workers saying plant another magic money tree.
They could raise taxes to fund the status quo. However, no politician that wants to be re-elected is willing to risk that solution.
Changes to the UK State Pension, now about 10K a year for someone with a full NI contribution record - down from maybe 20K at the peak of SERPS (eighties, Barbara Castle’s idea possibly) are small compared to the changes in France.
The govt there used the law 49.3 to force through the retirement age changes without a vote in parliament.
The comparison to make, in my opinion is if the UK govt suddenly told all the beneficiaries of the Council staff, Teachers, NHS, Firefighters and others possibly including posties, that their benefits were going to be reduced or their normal retirement age postponed by a couple more years. We’ve seen plenty of industrial action when pension changes have been put forward by the employers. It’s never been that co-ordinated.
Living longer after retirement has to be paid for somehow and there’s no easy solution. |
logan’s run the only way to resolve this 
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GPR - Rochester
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Posted: 25 March 2023 at 10:36am |
Oracle wrote:
Murdoch has had huge influence over American and British politics , but he has always fuelled far right views , including support of the biggest self harm event a country has ever done (Brexit) and supported the rise of Trump ..He's currently being taken to court in the USA , so maybe his past us catching up with him Ironically I never understood how the owners of the express and the lies it openly prints can also own the mirror ....Can't square that circle at all |
Biggest self harm event..... - of course that is your honestly held opinion which you are perfectly entitled to. I don't agree - for me the biggest self harm event I have seen in my lifetime is Blair's insistence on going to war in Iraq due to non existent WMD or indeed the British electorate voting for Boris.
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GPR - Rochester
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Posted: 25 March 2023 at 10:38am |
Eastern outpost wrote:
Some background as to why the pensions dispute matters more in France than here, from my conversations with folk there. My understanding is a long way from complete so this post remains within what I believe to be correct.
In the UK, the State Pension is a much lower figure in comparison to what France provide. There, the state takes on much of the responsibility for retirement income for their population. The benefits are a proportion of your income so affect pretty much everyone, including people earning high(er) incomes.
In the UK, the provision of pensions has been a responsibility of the private sector for its employees for a very long time. In the past, there were plenty of Final Salary schemes provided by the private sector. Now, not quite hens’ teeth but close. They became too costly and brought too much responsibility for the companies running them.
Only the public sector can be confident of a pension that is a benefit promise (near guarantee) and depending on how long worked there it can be up to 2/3rds of earnings at/nr retirement. The cost of these schemes is probably close to 40% of the pensionable earnings, a fact not really appreciated by many or valued by its members. Everyone outside the public sector contributes to the cost of these through their taxes.
The Autoenrolment replacement schemes have derisory levels of contributions - 8% or 9% of earnings in total and the employer is only required to put in 3%. While this has brought pension contributions to people who never had them before, it has seen many companies ditching benefit promise schemes and the high contributions and responsibilities required. Sharp practice indeed and not enough (could be/was) done to stop that.
The UK has been ahead of most of Europe in understanding how much benefits cost and funding those in advance.
France - the government have looked at how much the benefit promises are costing and have worked out it’s unaffordable, especially within the financial strictures of the € mechanism. Rather than say this is how much it costs to provide these benefits, here are the options to do that so choose one, it’s become a stand off between the govt’s can’t afford it so we’re putting in this solution and the unions and workers saying plant another magic money tree.
They could raise taxes to fund the status quo. However, no politician that wants to be re-elected is willing to risk that solution.
Changes to the UK State Pension, now about 10K a year for someone with a full NI contribution record - down from maybe 20K at the peak of SERPS (eighties, Barbara Castle’s idea possibly) are small compared to the changes in France.
The govt there used the law 49.3 to force through the retirement age changes without a vote in parliament.
The comparison to make, in my opinion is if the UK govt suddenly told all the beneficiaries of the Council staff, Teachers, NHS, Firefighters and others possibly including posties, that their benefits were going to be reduced or their normal retirement age postponed by a couple more years. We’ve seen plenty of industrial action when pension changes have been put forward by the employers. It’s never been that co-ordinated.
Living longer after retirement has to be paid for somehow and there’s no easy solution. |
Thanks EO - some very informative meat on the bones there. 
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Oracle
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Posted: 25 March 2023 at 10:41am |
I would say that the war in Iraq was stupidity by UK and USA , but I felt that bush jnr seemed to have this desire to complete what his father started and Blair thought he would go with it because of some fantasy belief that the UK was somehow special to the USA ..which we have seen to be rubbish ... Brexit was purely down to us , I believe brexit is the only time in the entire history of the world that a country has imposed sanctions apon itself ...if the UK was a person , I believe it would be sectioned under the heading of self harm
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GPR - Rochester
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Posted: 25 March 2023 at 11:18am |
Oracle wrote:
I would say that the war in Iraq was stupidity by UK and USA , but I felt that bush jnr seemed to have this desire to complete what his father started and Blair thought he would go with it because of some fantasy belief that the UK was somehow special to the USA ..which we have seen to be rubbish ...Brexit was purely down to us , I believe brexit is the only time in the entire history of the world that a country has imposed sanctions apon itself ...if the UK was a person , I believe it would be sectioned under the heading of self harm |
Well Oracle Iraq was purely down to us as a free nation. Your thoughts on Brexit are well documented as, of course, is my disagreement with you. I don't think there is much more for either of us to say on that subject.
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Oracle
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Posted: 25 March 2023 at 11:25am |
But the weekend is for fishing
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GPR - Rochester
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Posted: 25 March 2023 at 11:40am |
Oracle wrote:
But the weekend is for fishing |
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SA14
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Posted: 25 March 2023 at 12:14pm |
Oracle wrote:
I would say that the war in Iraq was stupidity by UK and USA , but I felt that bush jnr seemed to have this desire to complete what his father started and Blair thought he would go with it because of some fantasy belief that the UK was somehow special to the USA ..which we have seen to be rubbish ...Brexit was purely down to us , I believe brexit is the only time in the entire history of the world that a country has imposed sanctions apon itself ...if the UK was a person , I believe it would be sectioned under the heading of self harm |
Brexit was never about the economy. Unfortunately it was about one thing. That the public voted for. Twice.
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Posted: 25 March 2023 at 12:21pm |
Oracle wrote:
I would say that the war in Iraq was stupidity by UK and USA , but I felt that bush jnr seemed to have this desire to complete what his father started and Blair thought he would go with it because of some fantasy belief that the UK was somehow special to the USA ..which we have seen to be rubbish ...Brexit was purely down to us , I believe brexit is the only time in the entire history of the world that a country has imposed sanctions apon itself ...if the UK was a person , I believe it would be sectioned under the heading of self harm |
The Iraq war was nothing short of iniquitous IMHO. Brexit was the single biggest collective tantrum a State has ever thrown. Rattle firmly out of the pram. Far right rubbing their hands in glee over it.
The way I see it Oracle, is that sometimes in politics it is necessary for political parties to be opinion formers. That's what I believe the Left needs to do with vigour. Dr M makes excellent points about the press. In which case the Left needs to organise and bring the power of collectivism to bear. Good to see the Bylines network growing. There is a Bylines Cymru page too. Early days so far but hoping that the Left can really begin to challenge right wing paradigms that have hitherto been accepted and normalised.
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lofty evans
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Posted: 25 March 2023 at 12:41pm |
Eastern outpost wrote:
Some background as to why the pensions dispute matters more in France than here, from my conversations with folk there. My understanding is a long way from complete so this post remains within what I believe to be correct.
In the UK, the State Pension is a much lower figure in comparison to what France provide. There, the state takes on much of the responsibility for retirement income for their population. The benefits are a proportion of your income so affect pretty much everyone, including people earning high(er) incomes.
In the UK, the provision of pensions has been a responsibility of the private sector for its employees for a very long time. In the past, there were plenty of Final Salary schemes provided by the private sector. Now, not quite hens’ teeth but close. They became too costly and brought too much responsibility for the companies running them.
Only the public sector can be confident of a pension that is a benefit promise (near guarantee) and depending on how long worked there it can be up to 2/3rds of earnings at/nr retirement. The cost of these schemes is probably close to 40% of the pensionable earnings, a fact not really appreciated by many or valued by its members. Everyone outside the public sector contributes to the cost of these through their taxes.
The Autoenrolment replacement schemes have derisory levels of contributions - 8% or 9% of earnings in total and the employer is only required to put in 3%. While this has brought pension contributions to people who never had them before, it has seen many companies ditching benefit promise schemes and the high contributions and responsibilities required. Sharp practice indeed and not enough (could be/was) done to stop that.
The UK has been ahead of most of Europe in understanding how much benefits cost and funding those in advance.
France - the government have looked at how much the benefit promises are costing and have worked out it’s unaffordable, especially within the financial strictures of the € mechanism. Rather than say this is how much it costs to provide these benefits, here are the options to do that so choose one, it’s become a stand off between the govt’s can’t afford it so we’re putting in this solution and the unions and workers saying plant another magic money tree.
They could raise taxes to fund the status quo. However, no politician that wants to be re-elected is willing to risk that solution.
Changes to the UK State Pension, now about 10K a year for someone with a full NI contribution record - down from maybe 20K at the peak of SERPS (eighties, Barbara Castle’s idea possibly) are small compared to the changes in France.
The govt there used the law 49.3 to force through the retirement age changes without a vote in parliament.
The comparison to make, in my opinion is if the UK govt suddenly told all the beneficiaries of the Council staff, Teachers, NHS, Firefighters and others possibly including posties, that their benefits were going to be reduced or their normal retirement age postponed by a couple more years. We’ve seen plenty of industrial action when pension changes have been put forward by the employers. It’s never been that co-ordinated.
Living longer after retirement has to be paid for somehow and there’s no easy solution. |
Why don't we call a spade a spade.....the ideal plan is you contribute all your working life and the real ideal is you die before you retire. Shamefully people don't smoke and drink themselves to an early grave and actually god forbid understand there is a life you should have before dying. Because that is coming to all of us.....so your not allowed to enjoy your existence...ever. Winds me up this pension stuff.
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In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty"
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
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GPR - Rochester
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Posted: 25 March 2023 at 1:34pm |
totallybiasedscarlet wrote:
Oracle wrote:
I would say that the war in Iraq was stupidity by UK and USA , but I felt that bush jnr seemed to have this desire to complete what his father started and Blair thought he would go with it because of some fantasy belief that the UK was somehow special to the USA ..which we have seen to be rubbish ...Brexit was purely down to us , I believe brexit is the only time in the entire history of the world that a country has imposed sanctions apon itself ...if the UK was a person , I believe it would be sectioned under the heading of self harm |
The Iraq war was nothing short of iniquitous IMHO. Brexit was the single biggest collective tantrum a State has ever thrown. Rattle firmly out of the pram. Far right rubbing their hands in glee over it.
The way I see it Oracle, is that sometimes in politics it is necessary for political parties to be opinion formers. That's what I believe the Left needs to do with vigour. Dr M makes excellent points about the press. In which case the Left needs to organise and bring the power of collectivism to bear. Good to see the Bylines network growing. There is a Bylines Cymru page too. Early days so far but hoping that the Left can really begin to challenge right wing paradigms that have hitherto been accepted and normalised. |
Tantrums & rattles out of the pram - tell you what TBS I'll take your word on that. 
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Oracle
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Posted: 25 March 2023 at 2:30pm |
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On a slightly different note, do you think the far right has won ...when you talk to young people who openly say that they will never be able to own their own house or that they know they will never have a pension if they ever can retire , and accept it with just a shrug ....No passion no annoyance, just passive acceptance ...I feel that things won't get better for them
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Oracle
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Posted: 25 March 2023 at 2:31pm |
SA14 wrote:
[QUOTE=Oracle]I would say that the war in Iraq was stupidity by UK and USA , but I felt that bush jnr seemed to have this desire to complete what his father started and Blair thought he would go with it because of some fantasy belief that the UK was somehow special to the USA ..which we have seen to be rubbish ...Brexit was purely down to us , I believe brexit is the only time in the entire history of the world that a country has imposed sanctions apon itself ...if the UK was a person , I believe it would be sectioned under the heading of self harm [/QUOTE
Brexit was never about the economy. Unfortunately it was about one thing. That the public voted for. Twice. |
You say twice , what do you mean
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Posted: 25 March 2023 at 11:28pm |
lofty evans wrote:
Eastern outpost wrote:
Some background as to why the pensions dispute matters more in France than here, from my conversations with folk there. My understanding is a long way from complete so this post remains within what I believe to be correct.
In the UK, the State Pension is a much lower figure in comparison to what France provide. There, the state takes on much of the responsibility for retirement income for their population. The benefits are a proportion of your income so affect pretty much everyone, including people earning high(er) incomes.
In the UK, the provision of pensions has been a responsibility of the private sector for its employees for a very long time. In the past, there were plenty of Final Salary schemes provided by the private sector. Now, not quite hens’ teeth but close. They became too costly and brought too much responsibility for the companies running them.
Only the public sector can be confident of a pension that is a benefit promise (near guarantee) and depending on how long worked there it can be up to 2/3rds of earnings at/nr retirement. The cost of these schemes is probably close to 40% of the pensionable earnings, a fact not really appreciated by many or valued by its members. Everyone outside the public sector contributes to the cost of these through their taxes.
The Autoenrolment replacement schemes have derisory levels of contributions - 8% or 9% of earnings in total and the employer is only required to put in 3%. While this has brought pension contributions to people who never had them before, it has seen many companies ditching benefit promise schemes and the high contributions and responsibilities required. Sharp practice indeed and not enough (could be/was) done to stop that.
The UK has been ahead of most of Europe in understanding how much benefits cost and funding those in advance.
France - the government have looked at how much the benefit promises are costing and have worked out it’s unaffordable, especially within the financial strictures of the € mechanism. Rather than say this is how much it costs to provide these benefits, here are the options to do that so choose one, it’s become a stand off between the govt’s can’t afford it so we’re putting in this solution and the unions and workers saying plant another magic money tree.
They could raise taxes to fund the status quo. However, no politician that wants to be re-elected is willing to risk that solution.
Changes to the UK State Pension, now about 10K a year for someone with a full NI contribution record - down from maybe 20K at the peak of SERPS (eighties, Barbara Castle’s idea possibly) are small compared to the changes in France.
The govt there used the law 49.3 to force through the retirement age changes without a vote in parliament.
The comparison to make, in my opinion is if the UK govt suddenly told all the beneficiaries of the Council staff, Teachers, NHS, Firefighters and others possibly including posties, that their benefits were going to be reduced or their normal retirement age postponed by a couple more years. We’ve seen plenty of industrial action when pension changes have been put forward by the employers. It’s never been that co-ordinated.
Living longer after retirement has to be paid for somehow and there’s no easy solution. |
Why don't we call a spade a spade.....the ideal plan is you contribute all your working life and the real ideal is you die before you retire. Shamefully people don't smoke and drink themselves to an early grave and actually god forbid understand there is a life you should have before dying. Because that is coming to all of us.....so your not allowed to enjoy your existence...ever. Winds me up this pension stuff. |
Some MP's obviously looking to top up their pensions here Lofty:
Bless 'em, it's a hard life eh ...
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RR1972
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Posted: 25 March 2023 at 11:52pm |
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Bojo hancock corbyn 3 money grabbing clowns
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