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dr_martinov View Drop Down
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Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

i don't condone anything but we would still be paying the poll tax now if we'd have marched with placards and just chanted sometimes things are so unfair it takes stronger action

I hear what you are saying Nigel but where do we draw the line - setting fire to the public offices in Bordeaux??? Its a tough one & I certainly don't have the answers. Without a shadow of doubt there would not be Northern Ireland peace agreement if the IRA had only protested peacefully nor bi-lingual Welsh signs if some holiday homes had not been destroyed. 

It's clear our own Government are adopting a very authoritarian approach. For example, blocking roads and slow marching hurts nobody. The UK Government wish to give police powers to arrest people doing so. In fact, anything deemed as "disruptive" can be dealt with similarly. So as long as you protest quietly where it doesn't impact anyone else please carry on. Otherwise, we can arrest you at any point, even before the protest has started. Sounds like something Putin would do.
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Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

i don't condone anything but we would still be paying the poll tax now if we'd have marched with placards and just chanted sometimes things are so unfair it takes stronger action

I hear what you are saying Nigel but where do we draw the line - setting fire to the public offices in Bordeaux??? Its a tough one & I certainly don't have the answers. Without a shadow of doubt there would not be Northern Ireland peace agreement if the IRA had only protested peacefully nor bi-lingual Welsh signs if some holiday homes had not been destroyed. 

It's clear our own Government are adopting a very authoritarian approach. For example, blocking roads and slow marching hurts nobody. The UK Government wish to give police powers to arrest people doing so. In fact, anything deemed as "disruptive" can be dealt with similarly. So as long as you protest quietly where it doesn't impact anyone else please carry on. Otherwise, we can arrest you at any point, even before the protest has started. Sounds like something Putin would do.

Very much so Dr. M. Police have more than enough powers at the moment. 
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Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Climate change is a World problem and needs global action. To date there has been a lot of talk about targets but very little on the ground action. Please correct me anyone as I will admit to a limited knowledge here. From my own little village I see opportunities for long term planning being wasted. I will cite one example. My best mate decided to move into a house 4 doors down from us. The property needed extensive modernisation but despite his best efforts no real help was forthcoming from government agencies which resulted in him fitting a new oil boiler.

I know one of the people posting on this thread will have a lot more knowledge in this field of solar & alternative heating systems so it would be great to have his input - over to you Rob of Bont!!!!
Well I wouldn't call myself an expert GPR, and a little knowledge is dangerous, but here we go.....

First of all, RR has a point, the climate problems of our planet are not going to be solved by anything we do in the UK, the problems  need to be addressed in Asia and South America.  That's a whole subject in itself but good luck to anyone trying to get those countries to adopt green technologies any time soon.

Yes we in the UK have to 'do our bit' but what does that actually mean?  Does it mean totally decarbonising the UK at great expense to our citizens only to find we haven't even touched the surface of the real global problem. When people talk about sustainability they usually wrongly think its all about the environment - it isn't. There are three pillars to sustainability namely Environment, Social and economic.  You have to get the balance right between all three.  A  good example of where we are getting it wrong in Wales is the M4 Relief Road past Newport. I know posters have cited this as a good example of the way forward but it isn't; it's a total disaster and the decision not to build it goes against all the advice given by Welsh Government's own advisors. We haven't got the sustainability balance right here at all.

Anyway, on to the question. When talking about energy there's another pillar - security of supply. It's good to look at how our villages can be greener and more secure in our energy supply. Our Government want's us to move to heat pumps, solar, maybe hydrogen in time but they need to be honest with us - it's going to cost.  At the moment I don't think the incentives are high enough to make anyone go green.  Maybe this needs to move to a different thread. Smile
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Good post but unfortunately the government is full of ministers with financial incentive not to actually go green , one of the main reason why shell and others don't pay windfall tax , let alone corporation tax ...Yesterday shell wanted all future investors to be anti green , and to campaign against any future ecology based ideology ....regarding other parts of the world , well it's the west's demand for cheap technology , our demand and especially the European market are the ultimate aim to sell too , without the demand there would be no production ...Apparently USA make most of their items at home ....
Interestingly the politicians in the UK who talk the talk but definitely don't walk the walk , the ones who allow sewerage to be dumped into rivers and seas , will be looking to be lifted above the suffering that the rest of us have to deal with ...
What the frightening thing is that we only have one planet , there is no where else for us to go to ...we ruin this one and it's game over 
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Originally posted by Oracle Oracle wrote:

Good post but unfortunately the government is full of ministers with financial incentive not to actually go green , one of the main reason why shell and others don't pay windfall tax , let alone corporation tax ...Yesterday shell wanted all future investors to be anti green , and to campaign against any future ecology based ideology ....regarding other parts of the world , well it's the west's demand for cheap technology , our demand and especially the European market are the ultimate aim to sell too , without the demand there would be no production ...Apparently USA make most of their items at home ....
Interestingly the politicians in the UK who talk the talk but definitely don't walk the walk , the ones who allow sewerage to be dumped into rivers and seas , will be looking to be lifted above the suffering that the rest of us have to deal with ...
What the frightening thing is that we only have one planet , there is no where else for us to go to ...we ruin this one and it's game over 

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Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Climate change is a World problem and needs global action. To date there has been a lot of talk about targets but very little on the ground action. Please correct me anyone as I will admit to a limited knowledge here. From my own little village I see opportunities for long term planning being wasted. I will cite one example. My best mate decided to move into a house 4 doors down from us. The property needed extensive modernisation but despite his best efforts no real help was forthcoming from government agencies which resulted in him fitting a new oil boiler.

I know one of the people posting on this thread will have a lot more knowledge in this field of solar & alternative heating systems so it would be great to have his input - over to you Rob of Bont!!!!
Well I wouldn't call myself an expert GPR, and a little knowledge is dangerous, but here we go.....

First of all, RR has a point, the climate problems of our planet are not going to be solved by anything we do in the UK, the problems  need to be addressed in Asia and South America.  That's a whole subject in itself but good luck to anyone trying to get those countries to adopt green technologies any time soon.

Yes we in the UK have to 'do our bit' but what does that actually mean?  Does it mean totally decarbonising the UK at great expense to our citizens only to find we haven't even touched the surface of the real global problem. When people talk about sustainability they usually wrongly think its all about the environment - it isn't. There are three pillars to sustainability namely Environment, Social and economic.  You have to get the balance right between all three.  A  good example of where we are getting it wrong in Wales is the M4 Relief Road past Newport. I know posters have cited this as a good example of the way forward but it isn't; it's a total disaster and the decision not to build it goes against all the advice given by Welsh Government's own advisors. We haven't got the sustainability balance right here at all.

Anyway, on to the question. When talking about energy there's another pillar - security of supply. It's good to look at how our villages can be greener and more secure in our energy supply. Our Government want's us to move to heat pumps, solar, maybe hydrogen in time but they need to be honest with us - it's going to cost.  At the moment I don't think the incentives are high enough to make anyone go green.  Maybe this needs to move to a different thread. Smile

Thanks Rob - great info.
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Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

i don't condone anything but we would still be paying the poll tax now if we'd have marched with placards and just chanted sometimes things are so unfair it takes stronger action

I hear what you are saying Nigel but where do we draw the line - setting fire to the public offices in Bordeaux??? Its a tough one & I certainly don't have the answers. Without a shadow of doubt there would not be Northern Ireland peace agreement if the IRA had only protested peacefully nor bi-lingual Welsh signs if some holiday homes had not been destroyed. 

Don't foget there'd be no SAC without Gwynfor Evans' threat to fast to death. On that point, a few weeks ago I went to see 'Y Swn' about the story to establish the channel. Duplicity by Thatcher's government, who in their 1979 election manifesto promised a Welsh language channel for Wales, but as soon as they got in to power went back on their word. 

By the way, Y Swn is well worth seeing. The main language is Welsh with parts in English when the scene switches to Whitelaw, Nicholas Edwards and Thatcher. However, the parts spoken in Welsh are well subtitled. I can heartily recommend it
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Following on from Rob’s posts earlier, the best money you can spend is in insulation. Enough of that, eliminating any thermal bridges etc is money very well deployed. Then the heat you want stays in and needs less boosting.

Some builders have to use lots of sticky tape ahead of their air tests in order to pass the required standard. Then, the tape comes off and you’ve an altogether less pleasant result and what would be a fail.

Passivhaus from Germany originally is an excellent way to go for those starting off.

Re GPR’s best mate neighbour, was any thought given to domestic wind turbines? Not the most slightly of things, they can be excellent amongst the windy spots of high up in West Wales, or anywhere else for that matter. Also, was solar explored at all?
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Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Climate change is a World problem and needs global action. To date there has been a lot of talk about targets but very little on the ground action. Please correct me anyone as I will admit to a limited knowledge here. From my own little village I see opportunities for long term planning being wasted. I will cite one example. My best mate decided to move into a house 4 doors down from us. The property needed extensive modernisation but despite his best efforts no real help was forthcoming from government agencies which resulted in him fitting a new oil boiler.

I know one of the people posting on this thread will have a lot more knowledge in this field of solar & alternative heating systems so it would be great to have his input - over to you Rob of Bont!!!!
Well I wouldn't call myself an expert GPR, and a little knowledge is dangerous, but here we go.....

First of all, RR has a point, the climate problems of our planet are not going to be solved by anything we do in the UK, the problems  need to be addressed in Asia and South America.  That's a whole subject in itself but good luck to anyone trying to get those countries to adopt green technologies any time soon.

Yes we in the UK have to 'do our bit' but what does that actually mean?  Does it mean totally decarbonising the UK at great expense to our citizens only to find we haven't even touched the surface of the real global problem. When people talk about sustainability they usually wrongly think its all about the environment - it isn't. There are three pillars to sustainability namely Environment, Social and economic.  You have to get the balance right between all three.  A  good example of where we are getting it wrong in Wales is the M4 Relief Road past Newport. I know posters have cited this as a good example of the way forward but it isn't; it's a total disaster and the decision not to build it goes against all the advice given by Welsh Government's own advisors. We haven't got the sustainability balance right here at all.

Anyway, on to the question. When talking about energy there's another pillar - security of supply. It's good to look at how our villages can be greener and more secure in our energy supply. Our Government want's us to move to heat pumps, solar, maybe hydrogen in time but they need to be honest with us - it's going to cost.  At the moment I don't think the incentives are high enough to make anyone go green.  Maybe this needs to move to a different thread. Smile

Well, if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem springs to mind but ultimately there's truth in that and few real solutions are being considered by any Government, let alone the world-wide scale that is needed. 

As a parallel, but something which irritates me a bit is the way nuclear power is described as sustainable and even renewable by some, attempting to present it favourably to the public. It still uses a fuel - uranium or plutonium - that there is a finite amount of. Present uranium resources will last for 90 years or so. Nuclear fusion has yet to be developed at all so is within the magic bullet category of "solution" that I think is simply can-kicking. So why am I bringing this up? Well, Hunt recently was trying to get nuclear power to be classed as sustainable essentially for financial benefit for the industry and political gain. Is it better than fossil fuels? Yes, as there is reduced CO2 emitted. Is it sustainable? No. Why people are fed these mistruths by politicians and their agenda, particularly when their agenda are for personal gain for them or their business associates, is why I have little hope anything useful will be done in time to combat the climate crisis. 
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Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Oracle Oracle wrote:

Good post but unfortunately the government is full of ministers with financial incentive not to actually go green , one of the main reason why shell and others don't pay windfall tax , let alone corporation tax ...Yesterday shell wanted all future investors to be anti green , and to campaign against any future ecology based ideology ....regarding other parts of the world , well it's the west's demand for cheap technology , our demand and especially the European market are the ultimate aim to sell too , without the demand there would be no production ...Apparently USA make most of their items at home ....
Interestingly the politicians in the UK who talk the talk but definitely don't walk the walk , the ones who allow sewerage to be dumped into rivers and seas , will be looking to be lifted above the suffering that the rest of us have to deal with ...
What the frightening thing is that we only have one planet , there is no where else for us to go to ...we ruin this one and it's game over 

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Originally posted by Oracle Oracle wrote:

Good post but unfortunately the government is full of ministers with financial incentive not to actually go green , one of the main reason why shell and others don't pay windfall tax , let alone corporation tax ...

Interestingly the politicians in the UK who talk the talk but definitely don't walk the walk , the ones who allow sewerage to be dumped into rivers and seas , will be looking to be lifted above the suffering that the rest of us have to deal with ...
What the frightening thing is that we only have one planet , there is no where else for us to go to ...we ruin this one and it's game over 

Good post - and quite right.

One point I don't recall being mentioned often enough is David Cameron's terrible decision on the environment, when he promised to "cut the green crap". Short-term thinking at its worst:

David Cameron’s promise in 2013 to “cut the green crap” will cost millions of households around £170 each when energy prices spike this spring, a new report has claimed.

Analysis from the Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit (ECIU) showed that households could have saved a combined £1.5 billion in the next financial year if insulation continued to be installed at the same rate as a decade ago.

In 2012, around 2.3 million homes added new insulation, but since 2013 this has collapsed to just around 230,000 homes, ECIU said.

Insulation

“The rate of insulating homes has crashed since 2012 through cut backs on helping households reduce energy waste,” said Darren Jones, a Labour MP who chairs the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee.

“The true cost of this short-termist thinking is now coming home to roost for millions of families struggling to pay their bills.”

These homes installed either insulation and cavity or solid wall insulation, something which the group said was enough to slash gas usage by 20 percent. 

The UK has the worst insulated homes in Europe, according to a 2020 survey by thermostat maker Tado. If outside temperatures are at freezing, UK homes heated to 20 degrees will lose three degrees in five hours.

In Norway, homes just lose 0.9 degrees in the same time under the same conditions, and even in warmer countries the insulation is better.

https://theecologist.org/2022/jan/25/cameron-cut-green-crap-costs-ps15-billion

Cameron has a lot to answer for, IMO.
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Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

I’m not overly familiar with the bill so plesse feel to expand.  Anyhow I ll await further info on this new law

My pleasure: here is an extract from the report of a Parliamentary Committee:

New policing powers risk creating a hostile environment for peaceful protestors, the Joint Committee on Human Rights warns in a report published following legislative scrutiny of the Public Order Bill. Designed to combat disruptive protests, the draft legislation would instead have a ‘chilling effect’ on the right to peaceful protest, putting fundamental democratic rights at risk.

The Government has introduced the Bill to give the police in England and Wales greater powers to deal with protests that are peaceful but disruptive. It adds to changes made to the law on protest by the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022, which the Committee previously criticised for threatening the right to protest. It includes new criminal offences for ‘locking-on’ or disrupting transport works and national infrastructure, greater powers for stop and search, and would create Serious Disruption Prevention Orders.

The report highlights that the right to freedom of expression and freedom of assembly are protected under Articles 10 and 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights, and urges the Government to revise the Bill to ensure that these rights are respected.

https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/93/human-rights-joint-committee/news/171503/government-creating-hostile-environment-for-peaceful-protest-report-finds/

Lest you think this is some sort of lefty cabal, may I also include a link to the membership? 12 members, including 5 Conservatives:

https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/93/human-rights-joint-committee/membership/
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This is powerful stuff:


It's easy (and true) to blame the Conservatives but they themselves are a result of "the pollution paradox" in that they are influenced and even led by said rich, but polluting, industries. I would extend this paradox to say that the "nasty" politics of right-wing authoritarianism that is inherently for the benefit of a wealthy minority also generates a similar paradox: if it is to ever to get elected it must dominate PR, media, propaganda. In the majority, it then usually uses these to invoke emotion, nationalism, hate and fear combined with aspects of snobbery and that voters can become one of the rich minority (or aspire to do so). This is not helped by our FPTP system; the major competition essentially has to fight over the same swing voters to get elected. So they in turn will also be filtered for the above and no solutions will be put forward.

If only we could harness political bullpoo as a fuel: now that would be truly sustainable.


Edited by dr_martinov - 29 March 2023 at 6:23pm
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Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by Oracle Oracle wrote:

Good post but unfortunately the government is full of ministers with financial incentive not to actually go green , one of the main reason why shell and others don't pay windfall tax , let alone corporation tax ...

Interestingly the politicians in the UK who talk the talk but definitely don't walk the walk , the ones who allow sewerage to be dumped into rivers and seas , will be looking to be lifted above the suffering that the rest of us have to deal with ...
What the frightening thing is that we only have one planet , there is no where else for us to go to ...we ruin this one and it's game over 

Good post - and quite right.

One point I don't recall being mentioned often enough is David Cameron's terrible decision on the environment, when he promised to "cut the green crap". Short-term thinking at its worst:

David Cameron’s promise in 2013 to “cut the green crap” will cost millions of households around £170 each when energy prices spike this spring, a new report has claimed.

Analysis from the Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit (ECIU) showed that households could have saved a combined £1.5 billion in the next financial year if insulation continued to be installed at the same rate as a decade ago.

In 2012, around 2.3 million homes added new insulation, but since 2013 this has collapsed to just around 230,000 homes, ECIU said.

Insulation

“The rate of insulating homes has crashed since 2012 through cut backs on helping households reduce energy waste,” said Darren Jones, a Labour MP who chairs the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee.

“The true cost of this short-termist thinking is now coming home to roost for millions of families struggling to pay their bills.”

These homes installed either insulation and cavity or solid wall insulation, something which the group said was enough to slash gas usage by 20 percent. 

The UK has the worst insulated homes in Europe, according to a 2020 survey by thermostat maker Tado. If outside temperatures are at freezing, UK homes heated to 20 degrees will lose three degrees in five hours.

In Norway, homes just lose 0.9 degrees in the same time under the same conditions, and even in warmer countries the insulation is better.

https://theecologist.org/2022/jan/25/cameron-cut-green-crap-costs-ps15-billion

Cameron has a lot to answer for, IMO.

Brilliant stat on insulation, Aber.
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Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

I’m not overly familiar with the bill so plesse feel to expand.  Anyhow I ll await further info on this new law

My pleasure: here is an extract from the report of a Parliamentary Committee:

New policing powers risk creating a hostile environment for peaceful protestors, the Joint Committee on Human Rights warns in a report published following legislative scrutiny of the Public Order Bill. Designed to combat disruptive protests, the draft legislation would instead have a ‘chilling effect’ on the right to peaceful protest, putting fundamental democratic rights at risk.

The Government has introduced the Bill to give the police in England and Wales greater powers to deal with protests that are peaceful but disruptive. It adds to changes made to the law on protest by the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022, which the Committee previously criticised for threatening the right to protest. It includes new criminal offences for ‘locking-on’ or disrupting transport works and national infrastructure, greater powers for stop and search, and would create Serious Disruption Prevention Orders.

The report highlights that the right to freedom of expression and freedom of assembly are protected under Articles 10 and 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights, and urges the Government to revise the Bill to ensure that these rights are respected.

https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/93/human-rights-joint-committee/news/171503/government-creating-hostile-environment-for-peaceful-protest-report-finds/

Lest you think this is some sort of lefty cabal, may I also include a link to the membership? 12 members, including 5 Conservatives:

https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/93/human-rights-joint-committee/membership/

seems v draconian has it been passed?, people must be able to legally protest lthough i dont agree with people chucking paint over works of art not sure whar purpose that serves

Edited by RR1972 - 29 March 2023 at 6:41pm
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Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Following on from Rob’s posts earlier, the best money you can spend is in insulation. Enough of that, eliminating any thermal bridges etc is money very well deployed. Then the heat you want stays in and needs less boosting.

Some builders have to use lots of sticky tape ahead of their air tests in order to pass the required standard. Then, the tape comes off and you’ve an altogether less pleasant result and what would be a fail.

Passivhaus from Germany originally is an excellent way to go for those starting off.

Re GPR’s best mate neighbour, was any thought given to domestic wind turbines? Not the most slightly of things, they can be excellent amongst the windy spots of high up in West Wales, or anywhere else for that matter. Also, was solar explored at all?

Excellent point regarding insulation. My best mate did not look into turbines as far as I am aware but he did look at solar extensively but proved quite costly bearing in mind a lack of incentives which, with 2035 emission targets, you would have expected. 
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