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Use of the TMO

Printed From: Scarlet Fever Llanelli Rugby Sport Wales Tickets
Category: RUGBY
Forum Name: ARE YOU BLIND REF.... OR ARE WE WRONG ???
Forum Description: Refereeing points of law questions and answers
URL: https://www.scarletfever.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42767
Printed Date: 28 May 2022 at 11:36am
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Topic: Use of the TMO
Posted By: John
Subject: Use of the TMO
Date Posted: 29 October 2016 at 10:56am
This query stems from a couple of incidents in last nights game- yupp we know them but I'll keep the questions general.

We know that the officials on the field can refer to the TMO at any point and quite often do for matters other than foul play or the award of a try (for instance how to restart the game) but:

1. If a player alleges there has been foul play against him to the referee, is the referee obliged to make the TMO review the incident?

2. For an incident not foul play, can a player ask for a TMO review of a passage of play, principally to reverse a wrong decision?  



Replies:
Posted By: ap sior
Date Posted: 29 October 2016 at 11:28am
I'd add to that shouldn't the TMO intervene when there is an obvious mistake? Didn't see the game but it seems that the incident to YC A Shingler was a complete error/mistake.


Posted By: Mogwen
Date Posted: 29 October 2016 at 12:37pm
And the punch on elias from myhill!! He even told the ref "I've been punched" laughable decision making

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The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.


Posted By: ap sior
Date Posted: 29 October 2016 at 2:34pm
Originally posted by Mogwen Mogwen wrote:

And the punch on elias from myhill!! He even told the ref "I've been punched" laughable decision making

I'm sure there'll be a citing for that.

However isn't the TMo supposed to draw the attention of the ref to instances of foul play ?


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 29 October 2016 at 3:17pm
I don't think the referee is obliged to go to the TMO, but they can always ask the TMO just to check, whilst play is ongoing.

Nigel Owens ignoring Pascal Pape's accusation of a punch by Sean O'Brien is an example of when the referee should have gone to TMO as O'Brien was suspended for it. But I guess it encourages players to make more accusations.


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 29 October 2016 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by ap sior ap sior wrote:

Originally posted by Mogwen Mogwen wrote:

And the punch on elias from myhill!! He even told the ref "I've been punched" laughable decision making


I'm sure there'll be a citing for that.

However isn't the TMo supposed to draw the attention of the ref to instances of foul play ?


what minute in the match was this punch?


Posted By: Mogwen
Date Posted: 29 October 2016 at 3:34pm
At end of first half during scrumathon.

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The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.


Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 29 October 2016 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by Mogwen Mogwen wrote:

At end of first half during scrumathon.


Can't see it anywhere on the footage


Posted By: Mogwen
Date Posted: 29 October 2016 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

Originally posted by Mogwen Mogwen wrote:

At end of first half during scrumathon.


Can't see it anywhere on the footage


Elias comes up from a scrum(don't know which one) , there a scuffle, his nose is bleeding and he tells the ref and shows the ref that he's been punched. Ref did nothing

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The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.


Posted By: ExileTom
Date Posted: 29 October 2016 at 6:10pm
A good example of the TMO being used after an intervention would be the high tackle on Jonny Mcnicholl today. The touch judge suggested to the ref to go up to TMO and he rightly reversed the penalty and awarded a yellow card. I'd say we have a problem in the pro12 with how passive the touch judges are at times, rarely seeing them step in to advise the ref. Linton clearly needed help last night


Posted By: scarletman
Date Posted: 31 October 2016 at 9:10am
http://laws.worldrugby.org/downloads/TMO_Protocol_Aug_14_EN.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://laws.worldrugby.org/downloads/TMO_Protocol_Aug_14_EN.pdf

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Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 31 October 2016 at 10:39am
Watching Brive v Clermont yesterday, The third Clermont try from Nakataci (spelling?) caused referral to the TMO. It was awarded when the TV couldn't show any separation of the hand from the ball, even though the ball bounced away with great height and distance.

A physics question, can you get downwards pressure on the ball when it's in contact with the ground and the ball still travel a long way after, other than by perfect timing? Andy Goode wasn't convinced it was a try and thought he'd lost control. However, due to lack of TV camera operator skill, the best angle showed nothing of the hand and ball, just the arm and body of the player.

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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: John
Date Posted: 31 October 2016 at 12:35pm
Elias makes his allegation to the Referee at 35.15 on the game clock. Watch Parkes looking at the referee at the same time. If ever a player was assessing the referee for what he is, that was it. And that is why Parkes is a leader and should be our captain. You can't actually see any punch, just the reaction to it.

Scarletman's link is so full of legaleese as to be impenetrable but it seems to imply that the TMO cannot draw the ref's attention to foul play, just to a minor offence that might invalidate a try. And that surely is wrong (and being widely ignored but not on friday?)

But the fourth bullet point in the guiding principles would seem to be a complete shambles. At the very least, Poite and Linton need to have a discussion at length as to why they make so completely different uses of the TMO.  


Posted By: haydn_davies
Date Posted: 31 October 2016 at 3:41pm
Key for me:-

Any of the match officials, including the TMO, may recommend a review by the TMO. The reviews will take place in accordance with TMO protocol in place at the time which will be available on worldrugby.org/laws

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Posted By: KID A
Date Posted: 31 October 2016 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by haydn_davies haydn_davies wrote:

Key for me:-

Any of the match officials, including the TMO, may recommend a review by the TMO. The reviews will take place in accordance with TMO protocol in place at the time which will be available on worldrugby.org/laws


Surely one of the linesmen or the TMO saw the Shingler fiasco and had to step in.There are newspapers in Australia and New Zealand carrying the story and it makes the Pro12 look embarrassing.


Posted By: scarletman
Date Posted: 31 October 2016 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Watching Brive v Clermont yesterday, The third Clermont try from Nakataci (spelling?) caused referral to the TMO. It was awarded when the TV couldn't show any separation of the hand from the ball, even though the ball bounced away with great height and distance.

A physics question, can you get downwards pressure on the ball when it's in contact with the ground and the ball still travel a long way after, other than by perfect timing? Andy Goode wasn't convinced it was a try and thought he'd lost control. However, due to lack of TV camera operator skill, the best angle showed nothing of the hand and ball, just the arm and body of the player.

The Law in Rugby Union doesn't mention downward pressure. It only quotes "Grounding the Ball" !

It only has to touch the ground on or over the line whilst the attacking player is in contact with the ball !


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Herman Tours ... Still the best way to travel !


Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 31 October 2016 at 4:32pm
Thank you Scarletman.

Good to have that cleared up.

Is that any part of the attacker's body?

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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: scarletman
Date Posted: 01 November 2016 at 8:46am
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Thank you Scarletman.

Good to have that cleared up.

Is that any part of the attacker's body?

See below


Law 22.1 (see below) covers attacking and defending players but in the event of an attacking player carrying out either action a try is scored....

22.1 GROUNDING THE BALL
There are two ways a player can ground the ball:
(a) Player touches the ground with the ball. A player grounds the ball by holding the ball and touching the ground with it, in in-goal. ‘Holding’ means holding in the hand or hands, or in the arm or arms. No downward pressure is required.
(b) Player presses down on the ball. A player grounds the ball when it is on the ground in the in-goal and the player presses down on it with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of the player’s body from waist to neck inclusive.

22.4 OTHER WAYS TO SCORE A TRY
(a) Grounded on the goal line. The goal line is part of the in-goal. If an attacking player is first to ground the ball on the opponents’ goal line, a try is scored.
(b) Grounded against a goal post. The goal posts and padding surrounding them are part of the goal line, which is part of in-goal. If an attacking player is first to ground the ball against a goal post or padding, a try is scored.


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Herman Tours ... Still the best way to travel !


Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 01 November 2016 at 10:13am
Thanks, once more, Scarletman.

Knowledge is power

Much appreciated.

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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 01 November 2016 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

I don't think the referee is obliged to go to the TMO, but they can always ask the TMO just to check, whilst play is ongoing.

Nigel Owens ignoring Pascal Pape's accusation of a punch by Sean O'Brien is an example of when the referee should have gone to TMO as O'Brien was suspended for it. But I guess it encourages players to make more accusations.

I think this is the key quote from Scarletman's link:

Any of the match officials, including the TMO, may recommend a review by the TMO. 

So the TMO, or assistant ref,  could in theory have asked the ref to look at the Shingler  incident - maybe the ref was simply too quick to allow an intervention - or the Elias punch (must admit I could not see it, only hte after-effects).












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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 01 November 2016 at 6:49pm
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Watching Brive v Clermont yesterday, The third Clermont try from Nakataci (spelling?) caused referral to the TMO. It was awarded when the TV couldn't show any separation of the hand from the ball, even though the ball bounced away with great height and distance.

A physics question, can you get downwards pressure on the ball when it's in contact with the ground and the ball still travel a long way after, other than by perfect timing? Andy Goode wasn't convinced it was a try and thought he'd lost control. However, due to lack of TV camera operator skill, the best angle showed nothing of the hand and ball, just the arm and body of the player.

I didn't see this incident, but in general if a player bangs the ball down one-handed (for a legitimate try), the ball is pretty much guaranteed to bounce quite a distance unless the ball is touched down vertically. Any angle, and the ball and hand will separate after the touchdown, and how far it goes will depend on the force applied hand-to-ball (or if you prefer, the speed with which the ball is moving during touchdown), and the angle to the horizontal as the ball is moved towards the ground. (A former Physics teacher writes!)

I note that a PhD student at Loughborough has studied oval ball mechanics, though a brief perusal does not convince me that he has studied the situation under consideration in your question. Should you be so inclined - and have several days at your disposal - the link is: 

http:// dspace.lboro.ac.uk/dspace-jspui/bitstream/2134/10869/1/Thesis-2008-Holmes.pdf" rel="nofollow -  https://dspace.lboro.ac.uk/dspace-jspui/bitstream/2134/10869/1/Thesis-2008-Holmes.pdf







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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 01 November 2016 at 7:21pm
Thanks Gerran, much appreciated.

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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 02 November 2016 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Thanks Gerran, much appreciated.

No problem.

The PhD thesis looked a bit heavy to me! As I say, it didn't seem to cover the situation you described.

I do find - as do the commentators - that it is quite difficult to tell if the ball has been 'properly' touched down one-handed - and perhaps counter-intuitively, it can be harder to take a view on that in slo-mo than at normal speed. A tricky one!


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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)



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