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Lions 2021

Printed From: Scarlet Fever Llanelli Rugby Sport Wales Tickets
Category: RUGBY
Forum Name: B&I Lions 2021
Forum Description: Tour of South Africa
URL: https://www.scarletfever.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45822
Printed Date: 28 September 2021 at 5:20pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Lions 2021
Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Subject: Lions 2021
Date Posted: 05 April 2020 at 7:51am
Some much needed clarity has been given by the wonderful Ian McGeechan over possible selection for next year's tour. Now we will not agree with all his selections but I have to say his 15 is a lot closer to the one I would select than some others I have seen - Will Greenwood to name one.

Geech's team :- 

15. Hogg 14. Watson 13. Foxy 12. Tuilagi 11. Liam 10. Farrell 9. Cawdor
1. Sutherland 2. George 3. Furlong 4. Itoje 5. Ryan 6. Ritchie 7. Curry 8. Vunipola. 

Some very interesting points arise which tells me a lot about the current Welsh team firstly no Welsh forwards highlights our biggest weakness with many of those mentioned as contenders being the wrong side of 30 - Ken, AWJ, Tips & Faletau. Secondly Geech's is totally clear that Cawdor starts which I agree with - perhaps someone should tell Pivac!!!

My team would be a little different with Adams replacing Liam & Liam replacing Hogg. I also think that Lawes would be close to playing at 6 to combat the Boks lineout although I thought Ritchie was outstanding in the 6 nations. What is without doubt is that Scotland will have a far bigger representation than in previous recent tours. 



Replies:
Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 05 April 2020 at 7:53am
Another interesting point that when debating the scrum half contenders no mention was made of Tomos Williams which I again agree with. Those mentioned were Murray, Webb, Price & Cawdor. 


Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 05 April 2020 at 8:10am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Another interesting point that when debating the scrum half contenders no mention was made of Tomos Williams which I again agree with. Those mentioned were Murray, Webb, Price & Cawdor. 
mike phillips will be gutted


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 05 April 2020 at 11:22am
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Another interesting point that when debating the scrum half contenders no mention was made of Tomos Williams which I again agree with. Those mentioned were Murray, Webb, Price & Cawdor. 
mike phillips will be gutted

Yes is Mike his agent?


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 05 April 2020 at 11:29am
Following on from Geech's 15 above it will be interesting how Gats looks to take them on. Fight fire with fire and go 6/2 bench split in which case our bench could look something like :-

16. Ken/Ryan 17. Mako/Genge/Carre 18. Sinckler/Fagerson 19. Henderson 20. Lawes 21. Watson 22. Murray 23. Biggar. 

Alternatively with two games at altitude Daly ( not my favourite player) could come on to the bench instead of Henderson with his ability to kick goals from 60-70 metres in that thin air. 

Again very worryingly if your a Welsh fan not too many forwards are threatening the 23. 


Posted By: Mogwen
Date Posted: 05 April 2020 at 11:40am
You have to ask the question will the Saracen players be up to speed with playing the best team i the world, with them playing their weekly games at a much lower level for a season in the championship. Im not doubting their quality, but will the likes of Farrell, George, itoje, vunipolas be able to up their game enough to challenge the boks??

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The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.


Posted By: scarletnut
Date Posted: 05 April 2020 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Another interesting point that when debating the scrum half contenders no mention was made of Tomos Williams which I again agree with. Those mentioned were Murray, Webb, Price & Cawdor. 
I’d have Williams ahead of Price who isn’t great


Posted By: reesytheexile
Date Posted: 05 April 2020 at 1:07pm
It seems that the more the rules take rugby away from huge physical hits and crunches by massive forwards  to fast tempo and offloading, the better for Wales . 

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"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook


Posted By: dyniol53
Date Posted: 17 February 2021 at 10:09pm

There is growing support for staging the British and Irish Lions series against South Africa in Australia following the latest projections that the matches could potentially be played Down Under in front of capacity crowds.

The blueprint for hosting the tour in Australia is expected to be considered by the Lions board in detail for the first time at a meeting on Thursday.

And after  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2021/01/31/australia-offer-host-lions-series-against-south-africa-likely/" rel="nofollow - an initially lukewarm response to Rugby Australia's offer  last month to host the eight-game tour, there now appears to be momentum behind the option from both administrators and players.

It is understood that the United Arab Emirates, which is second only to Israel in the world’s fastest Covid vaccination roll-outs, is also interested in hosting the tour, according to several sources, although the Lions have yet to receive a formal offer.

However, it is the offer by Australia, which has nearly zero community transition cases and has government support to host major sporting events with crowds that is now coming under serious consideration, given the complications of proceeding with the tour as scheduled to South Africa or hosting it in the UK and Ireland.

Hamish McLennan, the chairman of Rugby Australia, told Telegraph Sport they were in a position to deliver the closest thing to a Lions tour given the unique circumstances posed by the pandemic.

The plan would be to operate the tour from a “hub” with the Lions and South Africa based in Sydney or Perth. Potential Test venues would be Perth (the 65,000-capacity Optus Stadium), Brisbane (the 52,500-capacity Suncorp Stadium) and Sydney (the 83,500-capacity Stadium Australia and 48,000-capacity Sydney Cricket Ground).

Rugby Australia is confident that the Test matches would sell out given the number of expats in Australia from both the UK and Ireland and South Africa.

“If we sold out Sydney or Perth, which is achievable if we are allowed to have full crowds, it would just be mind-blowing for the players,” McLennan said. “I know lockdown in the UK has been tough but in Sydney life is relatively normal. We can successfully host this.”



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https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en


Posted By: dyniol53
Date Posted: 17 February 2021 at 10:13pm

Analysis - How a Lions tour to Australia would work

Amid the grimness and uncertainty of the current lockdowns, it seems impossible to imagine a Lions series against South Africa going ahead this summer with matches played at packed stadiums against the backdrop of the vibrancy  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2021/01/18/extra-dimension-playing-distant-lands-sets-lions-tours-apart/" rel="nofollow - and colour of a traditional tour.

postponement of the tour,  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2021/02/10/lions-remain-committed-staging-traditional-tour-south-africa/" rel="nofollow - which is South Africa’s preferred option , has effectively been ruled out, the board has been agonising over two options. The first is to proceed with the tour as planned, which has the safety net of financial commitments already in place, but with the knowledge that the matches are likely to be behind closed doors and with the added complication of touring South Africa given the prevalence of the Covid-19 variant there.

Yet, the other contingency plan – to host the “tour” in the UK and Ireland – is also laced with risk. Despite the success of the vaccine roll-out there still is no guarantee that capacity crowds will be permitted at stadiums by July and question marks remain about whether South Africa teams would be permitted to travel here given the variant risk.

Given the cost of hosting the series in the UK, without significant crowds the business plan alone becomes untenable, while Sky Sports, the biggest commercial partner, would be within its rights to demand a reduction in its fee, given it purchased a “tour” of South Africa.

The biggest drawback to the UK and Ireland option, however, is not crowds nor finances but the detrimental impact it would have on the touring heritage of the Lions. Willie John McBride, the most famous Lion of all, is among those who has warned  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2021/01/14/exclusive-british-lions-warned-not-play-south-africa-uk-damage/" rel="nofollow - the touring ethos would be “damaged forever”  if the games were played at home. Enough said.

That is why the Australia option, after a muted response, appears to be gaining traction within the board, with the clock ticking on a decision.

Hamish McLennan, who was appointed RA’s chairman last year, told Telegraph Sport that the offer was a “genuine and unconditional” one to ensure that an “important rugby tradition” is preserved.

Any suggestion that its offer was merely a PR move to garner support for its bid to host the 2027 World Cup is misplaced. McLennan is serious.


Significantly, there appears to be Australian state government support, too. “The New South Wales government is committed to hosting and running sports of all types and are probably the best at doing it in the world,” McLennan said.

“I think the players would really enjoy it and I am confident we could also deliver a really decent cheque back to South Africa and the Lions. We will get it sorted if we are told by April.”

The plan would be to operate the tour from a “hub” with the Lions and South Africa based in Sydney or Perth. Potential Test venues would be Perth (the 65,000-capacity Optus Stadium), Brisbane (the 52,500-capacity Suncorp Stadium) and Sydney (the 83,500-capacity Stadium Australia and 48,000-capacity Sydney Cricket Ground).

The RA modelling for a tour in Australia is based on a conservative project that stadiums will be allowed to be at 50 per cent capacity but there is optimism the matches could be played in front of full houses.

With significant UK and South African expat communities in the country, there has already been a huge interest in the Australian rugby community to host the tour.

The experiences of playing Tri-Nations matches last year and other major sporting events gives the RA the confidence to predict a tour could go ahead as normally as possible while also meeting the financial demands of the Lions and the South Africa Rugby Union.

McLennan is adamant that the hurdles to staging the tour, including adapting the two-week quarantine to enter the country, can be overcome and, critically, offer the players the closest experience to a traditional Lions tour.

“It is an evolving situation but if you look at what we did with New Zealand and Argentina last year, we created ‘bubbles’ where they were able to train and quarantine and we would do the same for the Lions and South Africa,” McLennan added.

“There was no diminishment in their training capabilities. Take Argentina, they knocked off the All Blacks for the first time ever and everyone had a great time. We just need a commitment and then we can get it organised.”

RA is flexible on the fixture schedule, with Super Rugby sides and potentially even Australia being lined up as opponents for the Lions.

The revenue from ticket sales would more than make up for any potential hit from the loss of any sponsors. And if the Australian government underwrote liabilities in the event of a short-notice lockdown that prevented crowds from attending Test matches, a Lions tour Down Under this summer could become a reality.

With the players having an input into the decision, the prospect of a tour in almost normal conditions once they have gone through the training quarantine is understood to be proving attractive.




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https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en


Posted By: dyniol53
Date Posted: 17 February 2021 at 10:25pm
Think it would be good for Australia to host IMO as Rugby Union is a 4th tier sport in NSW and Victoria these days - anything that boosts the profile of the sport there is good in my book.

Will be a shame that Japan don’t get a game against the Lions.


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https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en


Posted By: reesytheexile
Date Posted: 18 February 2021 at 11:59am
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Think it would be good for Australia to host IMO as Rugby Union is a 4th tier sport in NSW and Victoria these days - anything that boosts the profile of the sport there is good in my book.

Will be a shame that Japan don’t get a game against the Lions.
There will be significant Ex pats from U.K./ Ireland and S  Africa living in Oz and adding on Oz fans the stadiums should be pretty full . It has to be a serious option and will be great bonus for the ex pats . Coming to U.K. is just not an option for me

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"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook


Posted By: Fscarlet
Date Posted: 18 February 2021 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Think it would be good for Australia to host IMO as Rugby Union is a 4th tier sport in NSW and Victoria these days - anything that boosts the profile of the sport there is good in my book.

Will be a shame that Japan don’t get a game against the Lions.

I hope they do as I've got bloody tickets!


Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 05 March 2021 at 6:03am
It looks like the lions will play in britain this year ,to me this is a total sell out of everything the lions is about and is just another money making excercise that cheapens the whole ethos.


Posted By: scarletsrules
Date Posted: 05 March 2021 at 6:31am
It's a gutter that the tour to South Africa is unlikely to go ahead with games being played here instead but given the circumstances and the fact the unions won't agree to delay a year what more can they do?

It's a one off in a crazy year , I'm just happy to be able to watch it and maybe even get the chance to watch the Lions live which alot of people may never get the chance as going on tour is to expensive


Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 05 March 2021 at 6:42am
Originally posted by scarletsrules scarletsrules wrote:

It's a gutter that the tour to South Africa is unlikely to go ahead with games being played here instead but given the circumstances and the fact the unions won't agree to delay a year what more can they do?

It's a one off in a crazy year , I'm just happy to be able to watch it and maybe even get the chance to watch the Lions live which alot of people may never get the chance as going on tour is to expensive
football tournaments have delayed things,there's enough rugby at international level already,this just shows that the lions is just being used as a cash cow with no thought for the fans.


Posted By: Dic Penderyn
Date Posted: 05 March 2021 at 8:28am
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

It looks like the lions will play in britain this year ,to me this is a total sell out of everything the lions is about and is just another money making excercise that cheapens the whole ethos.
I agree,ladram.I have to say too that Gatland as coach again is difficult to square with the traditional ethos.Even the Olympics was cancelled,and the whole point of the Lions is to tour.


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 05 March 2021 at 8:46am
Originally posted by Dic Penderyn Dic Penderyn wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

It looks like the lions will play in britain this year ,to me this is a total sell out of everything the lions is about and is just another money making excercise that cheapens the whole ethos.
I agree,ladram.I have to say too that Gatland as coach again is difficult to square with the traditional ethos.Even the Olympics was cancelled,and the whole point of the Lions is to tour.

Yes Dic Gatland and the Lions has never really sat well with me. Was lucky enough to go on the 1997 tour to South Africa with McGeechan & Telfer in charge. Real bunker mentality stoked by Telfer in the main. Not only did he wind up the playing squad he managed to wind up 30,000 travelling supporters. 


Posted By: Fscarlet
Date Posted: 05 March 2021 at 8:55am
Agreed fellas, we have tickets for the Japan match at Murrayfield but if they are playing the tour here it won't feel quite as special.


Posted By: turkishrebel
Date Posted: 05 March 2021 at 9:35am
lions are a touring team not a home team, if the south africans are coming over they should just play a test against each of the home nations at their grounds. 
sell out of fans. very poor


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Once a Scarlet, always a Scarlet!


Posted By: EJPT
Date Posted: 05 March 2021 at 9:53am
I’d rather see it in a safe(-er) environment than not at all. It is a business decision and I have no doubt some of the magic will be taken away. Especially as Africa is the best timezone of all the tours so there is no getting up at 6am to watch it. I’m sure the South African team will be up for it. 
Be good if we could get some Midweek friendlies against british club sides though. Scarlets vs british and irish Lions anyone?Wink


Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 05 March 2021 at 10:43am
Given the current pandemic I think this is a fair option better than no lions tour  at all


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 05 March 2021 at 11:26am
I agree RR.

Needs must at the end of the day.


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 05 March 2021 at 12:28pm
Will their be any crowds? Where will they play?

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: Jones2004
Date Posted: 05 March 2021 at 12:53pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Will their be any crowds? Where will they play?
I suspect it will be wherever crowds are allowed (if it really is played in the British Isles). So if only England allow fans back all games in Twickenham - likewise with all the other nations. If fans are allowed back everywhere I suspect they’ll share the games around the 4 nations as much as possible (depending upon how many games there are). These are all just what I guess will happen and not based upon any extra knowledge before anyone asks.


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 05 March 2021 at 12:58pm
Where do the profits from a lions tour go? Is it to the home nations? If so if it is money making isn’t that a small price to pay and a bonus seeing as the money that’s been lost with no international crowds? People will be hungry for international rugby and the day out that goes with it around the country. They’ll be sold out games no question about that. I’d love to go (2025 is on my bucket list) Plus it’ll give people who may never see the lions play a chance to see them. This pandemic has seen unprecedented changes in everyday life. This will just be another on that list. 


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 05 March 2021 at 1:26pm
IF there are Lions games this season...

and IF they are played in the UK...

THEN

the basis of the Lions ethos is touring - it'll be a shame

BUT because of COVID, touring is difficult or maybe impossible

AND there have already been an awful lot of tests played in the Autumn (far more than usual)

(Just setting out the facts, there.)

FWIW - I'd far rather see the Lions tour this season, but if they can't then a few tests in the UK is better than none at all. I'd also prefer to see the Lions play than the individual nations, as that'll give at least some of our (Wales/Scarlets) players a well-earned break from playing.

The vaccination programme is going well, but we're not out of the woods by a long way - last thing we need is for any craziness to kick it off again (variants/relaxing lockdown too soon/whatever). So - no touring if that is risky, which it almost certainly is.


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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 05 March 2021 at 1:33pm
If anything the euros are what should be cancelled or postponed again. People mixing from all over Europe is a potential recipe for disaster. 


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 05 March 2021 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

If anything the euros are what should be cancelled or postponed again. People mixing from all over Europe is a potential recipe for disaster. 

Baffled.

Which tournament are you talking about? And are supporters allowed to travel to it - whichever it is?




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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 05 March 2021 at 2:06pm
I cant see a problem with this idea. Its better than nowt.

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: Jones2004
Date Posted: 05 March 2021 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

If anything the euros are what should be cancelled or postponed again. People mixing from all over Europe is a potential recipe for disaster. 
Baffled.

Which tournament are you talking about? And are supporters allowed to travel to it - whichever it is?
European Championship (football). Played in 13 different cities across Europe this summer. They haven’t said yet if there’ll be supporters from that country or travelling in the stadiums.


Posted By: reesytheexile
Date Posted: 05 March 2021 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

If anything the euros are what should be cancelled or postponed again. People mixing from all over Europe is a potential recipe for disaster. 
Absolutely- soocer fans from everywhere- madness 🤔? 

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"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 05 March 2021 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

If anything the euros are what should be cancelled or postponed again. People mixing from all over Europe is a potential recipe for disaster. 
Baffled.

Which tournament are you talking about? And are supporters allowed to travel to it - whichever it is?
European Championship (football). Played in 13 different cities across Europe this summer. They haven’t said yet if there’ll be supporters from that country or travelling in the stadiums.

If there’s no restrictions on travel then the supporters are gonna go all over Europe. 


Posted By: Fscarlet
Date Posted: 05 March 2021 at 5:55pm
England have a home football international two days or so after Boris’s planned end to all restrictions. 


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 07 March 2021 at 9:46am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Some much needed clarity has been given by the wonderful Ian McGeechan over possible selection for next year's tour. Now we will not agree with all his selections but I have to say his 15 is a lot closer to the one I would select than some others I have seen - Will Greenwood to name one.

Geech's team :- 

15. Hogg 14. Watson 13. Foxy 12. Tuilagi 11. Liam 10. Farrell 9. Cawdor
1. Sutherland 2. George 3. Furlong 4. Itoje 5. Ryan 6. Ritchie 7. Curry 8. Vunipola. 

Some very interesting points arise which tells me a lot about the current Welsh team firstly no Welsh forwards highlights our biggest weakness with many of those mentioned as contenders being the wrong side of 30 - Ken, AWJ, Tips & Faletau. Secondly Geech's is totally clear that Cawdor starts which I agree with - perhaps someone should tell Pivac!!!

My team would be a little different with Adams replacing Liam & Liam replacing Hogg. I also think that Lawes would be close to playing at 6 to combat the Boks lineout although I thought Ritchie was outstanding in the 6 nations. What is without doubt is that Scotland will have a far bigger representation than in previous recent tours. 

I posted McGeechan's Lions team back in April 2020 - boy how things can change. Tuiliagi is still not back, Foxy is struggling big time, Farrell needs some very big performances and Cawdor is under serious pressure from Hardy. LRZ is pushing Hogg & Liam for a spot. 

In the forwards some of our Welsh boys have really stepped up to the plate with Wyn, Ken, Francis, AWJ & Faletau all pushing very hard & AWJ's captaincy way ahead of any of the other contenders. Billy Vunipola has been a shadow of his former self and the calls for Sam Simmonds to be picked at 8 for England are getting very loud indeed. For him not to even feature in the squad is crazy. Another total outsider who could be in with a shout is Rhys Priestland. He still takes the ball flat, has a sweet range of passing skills and he has broken Jonny Wilkinson's record for most consecutive goal kicks. I have seen nothing from three of the top contenders for the 10 shirt so far this 6 nations - Biggar, Sexton & Farrell all look way off the pace. 


Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 07 March 2021 at 10:02am
Simmons is top classat 8. I have  been beating his drum for ages bet gats picks him


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 07 March 2021 at 10:25am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Simmons is top classat 8. I have  been beating his drum for ages bet gats picks him

I wouldn't be at all surprised RR. His power is immense. His try scoring feats are off the scale & his bursts from the back of a scrum eat up the ground with raw pace and power. He is a real pleasure to watch. Bath just couldn't handle him yesterday and they had a back row of Underhill, Faletau & Mercer which is not exactly a soft touch. 


Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 07 March 2021 at 10:30am
I expect Gats would enjoy the added bonus of a little dig at Fast Eddie/Groucho Jones in starting Simmonds for the Lions, if he reckoned he deserved the jersey on merit.

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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: Mogwen
Date Posted: 07 March 2021 at 10:44am
He and faletau at 6/8 would be great but not the biggest. If you pick those 2 youve got to go for a bigger 7 in the frame of Curry or Watson. SA will try to dominate the pack so we need a more aggresive back row

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The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.


Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 07 March 2021 at 11:44am
Underhill is a unit gats type of player to, tupric on bench for when game opens up


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 07 March 2021 at 1:11pm
Looks like every position is up for grabs atm

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 7:58am
Well now that we have had some more performances under our belts anyone have any thoughts. My twopenneth :-

1. Two Irish players who have one hand on Lions starting shirts - Beirne at 6 & Henshaw at 12. Can't see any better options out there at this point in time. Beirne has everything Gatland will be looking at to counter the Boks - huge workrate, fantastic over the ball and very good lineout operator. 

2. Russell will not make the 23.

3. James Lowe and Van der Merwe don't look defensively sound enough to even make the squad. 

4. The Welsh starting front row of Wyn, Ken & Francis are all in with a very good shout at getting selected for the squad. 

5. After seeing the shocking Scottish lineout performance yesterday - losing 8 from 10 was it - I don't see any of their front 5 making the 23 or perhaps even the overall squad. 

My 23 for what its worth :-

15. Hogg 14. Watson 13. North 12. Henshaw 11. LRZ 10. Farrell 9. Cawdor
1. Wyn 2. Ken 3. Furlong 4. Itoje 5. AWJ (C) 6. Beirne 7. Curry 8. Faletau

16. Cowan-Dickie 17. Mako 18. Sinckler 19. Ryan 20. Navidi 21. Murray 22. Sexton 23. Liam


Posted By: Fscarlet
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 8:17am
I agree that Watson & LRZ will be the wingers, I rate Watson over May every day of the week. If North continues as he has been at 13 he will be a shoe-in there. It's a toss up between Hogg & Liam at 15, Hogg on his day is unplayable but he drifts in & out of games. 


Posted By: scarletnut
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 9:35am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Well now that we have had some more performances under our belts anyone have any thoughts. My twopenneth :-

1. Two Irish players who have one hand on Lions starting shirts - Beirne at 6 & Henshaw at 12. Can't see any better options out there at this point in time. Beirne has everything Gatland will be looking at to counter the Boks - huge workrate, fantastic over the ball and very good lineout operator. 

2. Russell will not make the 23.

3. James Lowe and Van der Merwe don't look defensively sound enough to even make the squad. 

4. The Welsh starting front row of Wyn, Ken & Francis are all in with a very good shout at getting selected for the squad. 

5. After seeing the shocking Scottish lineout performance yesterday - losing 8 from 10 was it - I don't see any of their front 5 making the 23 or perhaps even the overall squad. 

My 23 for what its worth :-

15. Hogg 14. Watson 13. North 12. Henshaw 11. LRZ 10. Farrell 9. Cawdor
1. Wyn 2. Ken 3. Furlong 4. Itoje 5. AWJ (C) 6. Beirne 7. Curry 8. Faletau

16. Cowan-Dickie 17. Mako 18. Sinckler 19. Ryan 20. Navidi 21. Murray 22. Sexton 23. Liam
Good side. With regards the Scotland front five I do think Rory Sutherland will be involved.

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I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1


Posted By: Fscarlet
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 9:39am
I think Watson will be involved in the non test squads but can't see him stepping ahead of Tipuric & Curry as they are far better footballers than Watson, but he has been Scotlands best player.


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 9:41am
Tend to agree with you both that Sutherland & Watson will make the wider squad but they will have to go some to make the test 23 if injuries don't intervene. 


Posted By: Jones2004
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 10:25am
I do think 9 is a bit of a weakness. In all four of the home nations there are numerous good scrum halfs but no one close to the level of De Klerk and Dupont. Who Gatland will go with in the end I have no idea!


Posted By: Why
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 11:00am
Youngs was very good forEngland on Sat but if Tomos Williams is fit he should start with the Gibson park on bench. Cawdor not been too good this season so be lucky to go. 
Biggar has been best ten this campaign and I really think Farrell is more of a liability than an asset.
Tuperic has to start he never has a bad game Curry been lost without Underhill though did play very well last Sat.




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She asks why i still can't answer. I guess its in the blood.


Posted By: Fscarlet
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 11:06am
Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

Youngs was very good forEngland on Sat but if Tomos Williams is fit he should start with the Gibson park on bench. Cawdor not been too good this season so be lucky to go. 
Biggar has been best ten this campaign and I really think Farrell is more of a liability than an asset.
Tuperic has to start he never has a bad game Curry been lost without Underhill though did play very well last Sat.



Curry has struggled without Underhill, they are like Lydiate & Warburton really.

I don't see the clamour around Gibson-Park but at the end of the day he is a better option than Youngs. I think it will be the 2 Welsh 9's in the test squad.


Posted By: greypower1
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 11:24am
Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

Youngs was very good forEngland on Sat but if Tomos Williams is fit he should start with the Gibson park on bench. Cawdor not been too good this season so be lucky to go. 
Biggar has been best ten this campaign and I really think Farrell is more of a liability than an asset.
Tuperic has to start he never has a bad game Curry been lost without Underhill though did play very well last Sat.

Young's and Gibson Park for my money.  The latter is a New Zealander just like the main man. 😋



Curry has struggled without Underhill, they are like Lydiate & Warburton really.

I don't see the clamour around Gibson-Park but at the end of the day he is a better option than Youngs. I think it will be the 2 Welsh 9's in the test squad.


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Keep the faith


Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 11:27am
The backrow will be from underhill and curry , navidi and tips and  watson that  is a decent group of flankers then you pick a laws/beirne/henderson  in the second row contingent to give extra cover at 6
 
8's will be toby and billy v with either stander or simmons as the back up.
 
Starting front row for me is wyn ken furlong with mako cowan dickie and synkler on the bench
 
Francis is a v good prop but not really an impact player from the bench
 
Second rows will awj/itoje, with the likes of ryan grey and one of the aforementioned laws/beirne/Henderson covering both the back row and second row
 
My starting pack would be
 
wyn ken furlong
awj itoje
underhill curry toby f
 
bench
mako cowan dickie  synkler beirne and tupric
 
 
Backline I need to think about but I like the look of
 
liam Watson north Henderson van der merwe   half backs are a lottery biggar has been excellent last two games in fairness  
 
 


Posted By: dyniol53
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 11:38am
It’s all really interesting and I agree with most of what’s said.

Trying to fit Itoje, AWJ, Ryan and Bierne into a starting 15 is not easy. But I expect they’ll all be in the 23 for at least one test.

Agree about Rory Sutherland, Hamish Watson and I think J Gray might still “tour”, of the Scots forwards.

Trying to fit Watson, Tips, Curry, Navidi, Faletau, Stander, Underhill & Bierne or Itoje into 3 shirts is a very tight squeeze. 

Agree about Henshaw probably the only out-and-out centre with a hand on his shirt. But I’ve got a feeling Gatland might try and go without any out-and-out centres by going with Farrell and North as a combo. 

9-10 combination is a tricky one after Russell’s head knock. I think he’s the best 10 in NH and his attacking kicks are a nightmare for a blitz defence like SA’s. 

Him picking off passes to put North, Hogg or LRZ in space is genuinely mouthwatering. But how he’d gel with Farrell is another story.

Think Youngs would be favourite to start 9 at the minute - Tomos’ injury really came at a bad time for him. Gibson Park is nothing special, but Gatland loves a kiwi 


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https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 11:39am
VDM over LRZ?

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: Fscarlet
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 11:41am
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

It’s all really interesting and I agree with most of what’s said.

Trying to fit Itoje, AWJ, Ryan and Bierne into a starting 15 is not easy. But I expect they’ll all be in the 23 for at least one test.

Agree about Rory Sutherland, Hamish Watson and I think J Gray might still “tour”, of the Scots forwards.

Trying to fit Watson, Tips, Curry, Navidi, Faletau, Stander, Underhill & Bierne or Itoje into 3 shirts is a very tight squeeze. 

Agree about Henshaw probably the only out-and-out centre with a hand on his shirt. But I’ve got a feeling Gatland might try and go without any out-and-out centres by going with Farrell and North as a combo. 

9-10 combination is a tricky one after Russell’s head knock. I think he’s the best 10 in NH and his attacking kicks are a nightmare for a blitz defence like SA’s. 

Him picking off passes to put North, Hogg or LRZ in space is genuinely mouthwatering. But how he’d gel with Farrell is another story.

Think Youngs would be favourite to start 9 at the minute - Tomos’ injury really came at a bad time for him. Gibson Park is nothing special, but Gatland loves a kiwi 

Finn is a great player but in fits & starts for me. He doesn't produce it often enough on the International scene, far too often Scotland are reliant on Hoggy to spark them into life. 


Posted By: dyniol53
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 11:50am
Honestly just think he’s often getting scrappy ball when playing for Scotland, so he flings it out to Hoggy who gets a bit more time and space (and is excellent).

At Racing he gets an armchair ride and those attacking kicks mean the defence either has to slow their blitz (creating more space to go through the hands) or continue sprinting up only for the ball to be collected in behind them. 

I don’t see Biggar, Sexton or Farrell’s attacking game being good enough to cut open boks.


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https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en


Posted By: Fscarlet
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 11:55am
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Honestly just think he’s often getting scrappy ball when playing for Scotland, so he flings it out to Hoggy who gets a bit more time and space (and is excellent).

At Racing he gets an armchair ride and those attacking kicks mean the defence either has to slow their blitz (creating more space to go through the hands) or continue sprinting up only for the ball to be collected in behind them. 

I don’t see Biggar, Sexton or Farrell’s attacking game being good enough to cut open boks.

And therein lies the point, we will be coming up against a huge pack & I don't think any FH will be getting an armchair ride.



Posted By: dyniol53
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 12:03pm
Either way, I hope he’s fit for the France game because that’s the only game left now for the Scots to try and book their place.

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https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 12:39pm
I don't rate van der Merwe frankly. He was absolutely nowhere when Henshaw scored his soft try on his wing. LRZ left him for dead on a one to one. My wings to tour would be LRZ, Watson, Adams & either Maitland or Stockdale. 


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

The backrow will be from underhill and curry , navidi and tips and  watson that  is a decent group of flankers then you pick a laws/beirne/henderson  in the second row contingent to give extra cover at 6
 
8's will be toby and billy v with either stander or simmons as the back up.
 
Starting front row for me is wyn ken furlong with mako cowan dickie and synkler on the bench
 
Francis is a v good prop but not really an impact player from the bench
 
Second rows will awj/itoje, with the likes of ryan grey and one of the aforementioned laws/beirne/Henderson covering both the back row and second row
 
My starting pack would be
 
wyn ken furlong
awj itoje
underhill curry toby f
 
bench
mako cowan dickie  synkler beirne and tupric
 
 
Backline I need to think about but I like the look of
 
liam Watson north Henderson van der merwe   half backs are a lottery biggar has been excellent last two games in fairness  
 
 

I do like Underhill but I just don't see Gatland going without a serious lineout man at 6 bearing in mind the importance of Steph du Toit at 6 for the Boks. Beirne fits the bill for me with his turnover threat being a huge added bonus. 


Posted By: dyniol53
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 12:48pm
I am so desperate for Bierne to become a Lion it’s embarrassing!

Just think his story (and our role in it) deserves it so much. There really isn’t a player like him. 

Think the physical edge of Stander, Itoje and even Lawes means he might miss out on a start. Though I think your lineout point is fair.


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https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

I am so desperate for Bierne to become a Lion it’s embarrassing!

Just think his story (and our role in it) deserves it so much. There really isn’t a player like him. 

Think the physical edge of Stander, Itoje and even Lawes means he might miss out on a start. Though I think your lineout point is fair.

Of those 3 I would say only Itoje would be the equal of Tadgh at 6. His engine is off the scale; he is very powerful in the pick and go, great at lineout time and there is no better jackler in Europe at the moment. If thats not enough to get him picked...... mind like you I may be a little biased. 

On the subject of Russell I really don't fancy his chances of making the 23. If he was selected to start it would compromise Gatland's selections elsewhere to cover his poor goalkicking. Yesterday he had a great chance to get Scotland into an attacking position and missed touch - that type of thing in high pressure games would not please Gatland. Russell may get into the wider squad but I would not be putting any of Ladram's money on it.Wink


Posted By: scarletnut
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

I don't rate van der Merwe frankly. He was absolutely nowhere when Henshaw scored his soft try on his wing. LRZ left him for dead on a one to one. My wings to tour would be LRZ, Watson, Adams & either Maitland or Stockdale. 
I’d take May over Stockdale or Maitland 

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I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

I don't rate van der Merwe frankly. He was absolutely nowhere when Henshaw scored his soft try on his wing. LRZ left him for dead on a one to one. My wings to tour would be LRZ, Watson, Adams & either Maitland or Stockdale. 

Crikey Id half forgotten stockdale, oh now theres a finisher, he would go ahead of maitland easily. The scots wingers have been a bit disappointing the last few games imo. So Id go with those 4 too , stockdale, LRZ, adams and watson...Probably start watson and LRZ. May is next in line. Full backs would be hogg, liam and possibly halfpenny.


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 1:51pm
A lot of very interesting points here...

At 15, surely it has to be between Hogg and Liam - I'd take Liam (taller, probably better overall in defence, more of a nuisance around the field, not much inferior -if at all - in attack)... but a toss-up.

Wings - on current form, LRZ is a cert; I prefer Watson to May; Adams is sure to tour, I think - but what about Stockdale? Bound to be there if fit. 5 wingers there - who misses out? Difficult!

Centres - Henshaw the only cert; Ringrose rather poor yesterday; Huw Jones better than Scottish starters; Farrell - not perfect at 10, or at 12 - but a 'test match animal', as is North; Foxy - still working his way back to full fitness. 

10 - no point comparing Sexton and Russell on yesterday's game, as the Irish forwards crushed the Scots. IF Gatland wanted to develop a more open game, he'd have to pick Russell - a sort of part-time genius - but we al know how conservative he tends to be, so if that continues it'll either be Sexton, Biggar or Farrell.

9 - I like Cawdor or Hardy (obs.!), but YOungs or Gibson-Park in with a shout.

1 - Wyn Jones (some comedians in the press are touting non-scrummaging fat boy Mako V - they have got to be joking.
2 - the Sheriff
3 - Furlong or Francis
4 - Ryan
5 - AWJ (capt.)
6 - Beirne or Navidi
7 Tips or Watson
8 Faletau ( Billy V not fit enough, yet... Stander back-up)

So then - what I think might be the best 15/23 ATM if nothing changes:

15 Liam
14 LRZ
13 Henshaw
12 Farrell
11 Watson
10 Russell
9 Cawdor

8 Faletau
7 Navidi
6 Beirne
5 AWJ (capt.)
4 Ryan
3 Furlong
2 Ken
1 Wyn

16 George
17 Healy
18 Francis
19 Itoje
20 Tipric
21 Hardy
22 Biggar
23 Hogg

That's a sort of mix of pragmatic players with X-factor players. I'd expect Gatland to go even more pragmatic - doubt he'll start Russell, but he could change a game, so may be benched. If he continues to perform, LRZ is a must on one wing - the other is a dogfight between Watson, May, Adams and Stockdale, if fit.
Centre is a weak area, unless Foxy returns to full fitness and power.
Lots of 9s at about the same level.
Itoje misses out as he's a penalty machine ATM. Ryan is excellent, in any case.

Not seen enough of some new guys - Connors was apparently outstanding yesterday, but Gatland favours experience, so...



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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 2:01pm
North is possibly the player of the tournament atm, if he goes well saturday he surely will start for the lions

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

North is possibly the player of the tournament atm, if he goes well saturday he surely will start for the lions

He's playing well, but is yet to show full confidence in terms of positioning.

He's definitely in the frame, though.


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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: scarletnut
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

A lot of very interesting points here...

At 15, surely it has to be between Hogg and Liam - I'd take Liam (taller, probably better overall in defence, more of a nuisance around the field, not much inferior -if at all - in attack)... but a toss-up.

Wings - on current form, LRZ is a cert; I prefer Watson to May; Adams is sure to tour, I think - but what about Stockdale? Bound to be there if fit. 5 wingers there - who misses out? Difficult!

Centres - Henshaw the only cert; Ringrose rather poor yesterday; Huw Jones better than Scottish starters; Farrell - not perfect at 10, or at 12 - but a 'test match animal', as is North; Foxy - still working his way back to full fitness. 

10 - no point comparing Sexton and Russell on yesterday's game, as the Irish forwards crushed the Scots. IF Gatland wanted to develop a more open game, he'd have to pick Russell - a sort of part-time genius - but we al know how conservative he tends to be, so if that continues it'll either be Sexton, Biggar or Farrell.

9 - I like Cawdor or Hardy (obs.!), but YOungs or Gibson-Park in with a shout.

1 - Wyn Jones (some comedians in the press are touting non-scrummaging fat boy Mako V - they have got to be joking.
2 - the Sheriff
3 - Furlong or Francis
4 - Ryan
5 - AWJ (capt.)
6 - Beirne or Navidi
7 Tips or Watson
8 Faletau ( Billy V not fit enough, yet... Stander back-up)

So then - what I think might be the best 15/23 ATM if nothing changes:

15 Liam
14 LRZ
13 Henshaw
12 Farrell
11 Watson
10 Russell
9 Cawdor

8 Faletau
7 Navidi
6 Beirne
5 AWJ (capt.)
4 Ryan
3 Furlong
2 Ken
1 Wyn

16 George
17 Healy
18 Francis
19 Itoje
20 Tipric
21 Hardy
22 Biggar
23 Hogg

That's a sort of mix of pragmatic players with X-factor players. I'd expect Gatland to go even more pragmatic - doubt he'll start Russell, but he could change a game, so may be benched. If he continues to perform, LRZ is a must on one wing - the other is a dogfight between Watson, May, Adams and Stockdale, if fit.
Centre is a weak area, unless Foxy returns to full fitness and power.
Lots of 9s at about the same level.
Itoje misses out as he's a penalty machine ATM. Ryan is excellent, in any case.

Not seen enough of some new guys - Connors was apparently outstanding yesterday, but Gatland favours experience, so...

I wouldn’t have Healey near it. He’s a poor scrummager. Look what Vincent Koch did to him in a recent Champions Cup quarter final 

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I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1


Posted By: Jones2004
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 2:26pm
I’d say the Lions have to start with pretty much their strongest scrummaging front row. The RWC final showed what happened when you’re scrum is even slightly off against SA, and if we don’t have a scrum for the series we don’t have a hope. That’s why I wouldn’t have Mako Vunipola close to the team, as good as he is around the field, and why Wyn Jones has surely got a very good chance of being the starting LH.


Posted By: Fscarlet
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

A lot of very interesting points here...

At 15, surely it has to be between Hogg and Liam - I'd take Liam (taller, probably better overall in defence, more of a nuisance around the field, not much inferior -if at all - in attack)... but a toss-up.

Wings - on current form, LRZ is a cert; I prefer Watson to May; Adams is sure to tour, I think - but what about Stockdale? Bound to be there if fit. 5 wingers there - who misses out? Difficult!

Centres - Henshaw the only cert; Ringrose rather poor yesterday; Huw Jones better than Scottish starters; Farrell - not perfect at 10, or at 12 - but a 'test match animal', as is North; Foxy - still working his way back to full fitness. 

10 - no point comparing Sexton and Russell on yesterday's game, as the Irish forwards crushed the Scots. IF Gatland wanted to develop a more open game, he'd have to pick Russell - a sort of part-time genius - but we al know how conservative he tends to be, so if that continues it'll either be Sexton, Biggar or Farrell.

9 - I like Cawdor or Hardy (obs.!), but YOungs or Gibson-Park in with a shout.

1 - Wyn Jones (some comedians in the press are touting non-scrummaging fat boy Mako V - they have got to be joking.
2 - the Sheriff
3 - Furlong or Francis
4 - Ryan
5 - AWJ (capt.)
6 - Beirne or Navidi
7 Tips or Watson
8 Faletau ( Billy V not fit enough, yet... Stander back-up)

So then - what I think might be the best 15/23 ATM if nothing changes:

15 Liam
14 LRZ
13 Henshaw
12 Farrell
11 Watson
10 Russell
9 Cawdor

8 Faletau
7 Navidi
6 Beirne
5 AWJ (capt.)
4 Ryan
3 Furlong
2 Ken
1 Wyn

16 George
17 Healy
18 Francis
19 Itoje
20 Tipric
21 Hardy
22 Biggar
23 Hogg

That's a sort of mix of pragmatic players with X-factor players. I'd expect Gatland to go even more pragmatic - doubt he'll start Russell, but he could change a game, so may be benched. If he continues to perform, LRZ is a must on one wing - the other is a dogfight between Watson, May, Adams and Stockdale, if fit.
Centre is a weak area, unless Foxy returns to full fitness and power.
Lots of 9s at about the same level.
Itoje misses out as he's a penalty machine ATM. Ryan is excellent, in any case.

Not seen enough of some new guys - Connors was apparently outstanding yesterday, but Gatland favours experience, so...

I wouldn’t have Healey near it. He’s a poor scrummager. Look what Vincent Koch did to him in a recent Champions Cup quarter final 

Healy got away with so much on the weekend!! 


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

A lot of very interesting points here...

At 15, surely it has to be between Hogg and Liam - I'd take Liam (taller, probably better overall in defence, more of a nuisance around the field, not much inferior -if at all - in attack)... but a toss-up.

Wings - on current form, LRZ is a cert; I prefer Watson to May; Adams is sure to tour, I think - but what about Stockdale? Bound to be there if fit. 5 wingers there - who misses out? Difficult!

Centres - Henshaw the only cert; Ringrose rather poor yesterday; Huw Jones better than Scottish starters; Farrell - not perfect at 10, or at 12 - but a 'test match animal', as is North; Foxy - still working his way back to full fitness. 

10 - no point comparing Sexton and Russell on yesterday's game, as the Irish forwards crushed the Scots. IF Gatland wanted to develop a more open game, he'd have to pick Russell - a sort of part-time genius - but we al know how conservative he tends to be, so if that continues it'll either be Sexton, Biggar or Farrell.

9 - I like Cawdor or Hardy (obs.!), but YOungs or Gibson-Park in with a shout.

1 - Wyn Jones (some comedians in the press are touting non-scrummaging fat boy Mako V - they have got to be joking.
2 - the Sheriff
3 - Furlong or Francis
4 - Ryan
5 - AWJ (capt.)
6 - Beirne or Navidi
7 Tips or Watson
8 Faletau ( Billy V not fit enough, yet... Stander back-up)

So then - what I think might be the best 15/23 ATM if nothing changes:

15 Liam
14 LRZ
13 Henshaw
12 Farrell
11 Watson
10 Russell
9 Cawdor

8 Faletau
7 Navidi
6 Beirne
5 AWJ (capt.)
4 Ryan
3 Furlong
2 Ken
1 Wyn

16 George
17 Healy
18 Francis
19 Itoje
20 Tipric
21 Hardy
22 Biggar
23 Hogg

That's a sort of mix of pragmatic players with X-factor players. I'd expect Gatland to go even more pragmatic - doubt he'll start Russell, but he could change a game, so may be benched. If he continues to perform, LRZ is a must on one wing - the other is a dogfight between Watson, May, Adams and Stockdale, if fit.
Centre is a weak area, unless Foxy returns to full fitness and power.
Lots of 9s at about the same level.
Itoje misses out as he's a penalty machine ATM. Ryan is excellent, in any case.

Not seen enough of some new guys - Connors was apparently outstanding yesterday, but Gatland favours experience, so...

I wouldn’t have Healey near it. He’s a poor scrummager. Look what Vincent Koch did to him in a recent Champions Cup quarter final 

I agree Steff - Wyn, Sutherland & Mako for me - if Marler is available I would perhaps take him before Mako. 


Posted By: dyniol53
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 3:08pm
Interesting that Mako is out of favour for a few on here - I’ve never thought he was a weakness in the scrum but I play 9 so have no idea haha.

Got to say the Sarries boys are in a tricky situation. This game vs Ireland really is the last chance for them to stick their hands up.

How will Mako fare vs Furlong?
Will Jamie George even start?
How many penalties does Itoje have to give away to make him too much of a risk to start?
Will Billy V ever be as effective as he was pre-WC? Stander and Faletau look super strong to me.
Farrell is pretty much playing head to head for a place with Sexton IMO...
Daly already gone.



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https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 3:19pm
Mako has always been known as world class around the field but not always world class scrummager...A bit like gethin jenkins who was a decent scrummager but not as specialised as say adam jones

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 3:23pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

A lot of very interesting points here...

At 15, surely it has to be between Hogg and Liam - I'd take Liam (taller, probably better overall in defence, more of a nuisance around the field, not much inferior -if at all - in attack)... but a toss-up.

Wings - on current form, LRZ is a cert; I prefer Watson to May; Adams is sure to tour, I think - but what about Stockdale? Bound to be there if fit. 5 wingers there - who misses out? Difficult!

Centres - Henshaw the only cert; Ringrose rather poor yesterday; Huw Jones better than Scottish starters; Farrell - not perfect at 10, or at 12 - but a 'test match animal', as is North; Foxy - still working his way back to full fitness. 

10 - no point comparing Sexton and Russell on yesterday's game, as the Irish forwards crushed the Scots. IF Gatland wanted to develop a more open game, he'd have to pick Russell - a sort of part-time genius - but we al know how conservative he tends to be, so if that continues it'll either be Sexton, Biggar or Farrell.

9 - I like Cawdor or Hardy (obs.!), but YOungs or Gibson-Park in with a shout.

1 - Wyn Jones (some comedians in the press are touting non-scrummaging fat boy Mako V - they have got to be joking.
2 - the Sheriff
3 - Furlong or Francis
4 - Ryan
5 - AWJ (capt.)
6 - Beirne or Navidi
7 Tips or Watson
8 Faletau ( Billy V not fit enough, yet... Stander back-up)

So then - what I think might be the best 15/23 ATM if nothing changes:

15 Liam
14 LRZ
13 Henshaw
12 Farrell
11 Watson
10 Russell
9 Cawdor

8 Faletau
7 Navidi
6 Beirne
5 AWJ (capt.)
4 Ryan
3 Furlong
2 Ken
1 Wyn

16 George
17 Healy
18 Francis
19 Itoje
20 Tipric
21 Hardy
22 Biggar
23 Hogg

That's a sort of mix of pragmatic players with X-factor players. I'd expect Gatland to go even more pragmatic - doubt he'll start Russell, but he could change a game, so may be benched. If he continues to perform, LRZ is a must on one wing - the other is a dogfight between Watson, May, Adams and Stockdale, if fit.
Centre is a weak area, unless Foxy returns to full fitness and power.
Lots of 9s at about the same level.
Itoje misses out as he's a penalty machine ATM. Ryan is excellent, in any case.

Not seen enough of some new guys - Connors was apparently outstanding yesterday, but Gatland favours experience, so...

I wouldn’t have Healey near it. He’s a poor scrummager. Look what Vincent Koch did to him in a recent Champions Cup quarter final 

I agree Steff - Wyn, Sutherland & Mako for me - if Marler is available I would perhaps take him before Mako. 

navidi 7 beirne 6 is a very interesting idea hmmmm food for thought


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 3:30pm
Gats likes his players big and strong that why I think vdm may get the nod ahead of lrz
 
If Tulagi gets fit hell be in the frame for the centres to, beirne is playing well but gats won't pick him at lock vs the boks
 
As a 6 yes maybe but I think hell go for naividi and underhill but neither are a line out option as gpr points out,
 
As for loose heads that kilcoyne is handy from the bench so don't rule him out as being on the "tour " either


Posted By: greypower1
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 3:30pm
Cawdor is third choice for Wales.  Why woul Garland select him ahead of the other scrum halves available to him.? 

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Keep the faith


Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 3:34pm
Originally posted by greypower1 greypower1 wrote:

Cawdor is third choice for Wales.  Why woul Garland select him ahead of the other scrum halves available to him.? 
 
he may suit gats game plan especially with his defence
 
there are no stand out 9's gats could well pick someone like davies or murray


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 3:40pm
The 9 jersey is still up for grabs, youngs , murray, price.....wales seem to have a rotation system with their 9s ....all class scrum halves bringing a slightly different skill set....cawdor is a big match player a dangerous runner, powerful tackler, his kicking game has improved a bit imo tomos is a classy all round 9 hardy big fan but lions may be too soon for him



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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 15 March 2021 at 4:00pm
Cawdor ticks a lot of boxes. He has great gas, strong, defensively he will get under Faf's skin and his interception threat scares most teams. Murray is the best box kicker available but he appears out of favour. All the others who are up against Cawdor are not much better kickers and do not possess anything like his other attributes. I would love to have seen Tomos given a few games but he has been unlucky with injuries - I still have doubts about his defence. 

Reading that back and most of what Cawdor gives us read the same for Hardy and apparently he is the fittest of them all. 


Posted By: NobbySosban
Date Posted: 16 March 2021 at 11:23am
Munster back row CJ Stander has announced his retirement from rugby at the end of this season aged 31, although he seems to leave himself available for Lions selection before returning to S Africa with his family.


Posted By: Sosban89
Date Posted: 16 March 2021 at 11:31am
Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

Munster back row CJ Stander has announced his retirement from rugby at the end of this season aged 31, although he seems to leave himself available for Lions selection before returning to S Africa with his family.

Personally I would not pick him for the Lions purely because I don't think a South African should be considered Irish. Especially given that he's already confirmed he'll be back to South Africa as soon as he hangs his boots up.


Posted By: dyniol53
Date Posted: 16 March 2021 at 11:35am
He’s still better than Billy Vunipola in my opinion so should go as a backup to Faletau - theres even an argument to say he’s more effective than Faletau.

Billy V born in Australia, Faletau’s Dad played for Tonga, CJ Stander is a South African; that’s just modern rugby.

I didn’t like the residency rule and am happy it’s now 5 years, but I don’t think any individual who benefitted from it should be held back because that’s the route they took. If they’re good enough they go. 


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https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 16 March 2021 at 11:40am
Originally posted by Sosban89 Sosban89 wrote:

Originally posted by NobbySosban NobbySosban wrote:

Munster back row CJ Stander has announced his retirement from rugby at the end of this season aged 31, although he seems to leave himself available for Lions selection before returning to S Africa with his family.

Personally I would not pick him for the Lions purely because I don't think a South African should be considered Irish. Especially given that he's already confirmed he'll be back to South Africa as soon as he hangs his boots up.

Well you cannot say he isn't eligible which is the only criteria which Gatland will be working to. Your logic lends the question whether Itoje, Faletau, the Vunipola brothers etc qualify for the Lions which is a real hornet's nest. Gatland will choose the best squad available to him and Stander is therefore available. Will he be selected - I think not as he would not be playing 8 for Ireland at the moment if Caelan Doris was fit. He has been  a real credit to Irish rugby & highlights the belief and sacrifices players & lets not forget - their families - have to make to pursue their dream of playing International rugby. 


Posted By: Fscarlet
Date Posted: 16 March 2021 at 11:46am
It's the wording of his statement I find interesting, the "However, I came to the realisation that my commitment to rugby has started to take an unfair toll on my family, who both in Limerick and South Africa have made considerable sacrifices for more than 25 years to allow me to live my dream."

I wouldn't be surprised to see him turn out for a SA franchise in a year or so.


Posted By: dyniol53
Date Posted: 16 March 2021 at 11:51am
On a side note - Paul O’Connell earned his salt on the weekend as the Irish lineout dismantled the Scottish one.

Does that make him a shoe in for Lions forward/line-out coach?

Who are the lions coaches?

Sean Edwards isn’t available for defence. 

Do we think Stevo might go in attack?

Steve Tandy might have put his hand up for defence?

Gats complained last time that because there were no Scottish coaches in the room (Toonie declined to be attack coach), their players didn’t have any extra supporters.


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https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en


Posted By: Fscarlet
Date Posted: 16 March 2021 at 11:54am
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

On a side note - Paul O’Connell earned his salt on the weekend as the Irish lineout dismantled the Scottish one.

Does that make him a shoe in for Lions forward/line-out coach?

Who are the lions coaches?

Sean Edwards isn’t available for defence. 

Do we think Stevo might go in attack?

Steve Tandy might have put his hand up for defence?

Gats complained last time that because there were no Scottish coaches in the room (Toonie declined to be attack coach), their players didn’t have any extra supporters.

He's had one good game, let's see how they go against England.


Posted By: dyniol53
Date Posted: 16 March 2021 at 11:57am
The Irish lineout also picked ours apart the first game. But yes, the Eng game is massive for both teams and players.

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https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en


Posted By: scarletnut
Date Posted: 16 March 2021 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

On a side note - Paul O’Connell earned his salt on the weekend as the Irish lineout dismantled the Scottish one.

Does that make him a shoe in for Lions forward/line-out coach?

Who are the lions coaches?

Sean Edwards isn’t available for defence. 

Do we think Stevo might go in attack?

Steve Tandy might have put his hand up for defence?

Gats complained last time that because there were no Scottish coaches in the room (Toonie declined to be attack coach), their players didn’t have any extra supporters.
Townsend will be attack, Mitchell/Farrell defence with Rowntree scrum, Borthwick forwards and Neil Jenkins kicking. That’s what Gatland wants 


Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 16 March 2021 at 12:42pm
will farell take defence coach? I thought that crusaders guy was in the mix
 
Mcbryde a bit unlucky not to go with how well leinster are doing
 
I'd say simmons is a better 8 than stander at the moment in all honesty


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 16 March 2021 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

will farell take defence coach? I thought that crusaders guy was in the mix
 
Mcbryde a bit unlucky not to go with how well leinster are doing
 
I'd say simmons is a better 8 than stander at the moment in all honesty

As is Doris. 


Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 16 March 2021 at 1:18pm
I think doris struggling mate he got long term concussion issues?


Posted By: dyniol53
Date Posted: 16 March 2021 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Some interesting comments from Gatland on the Lions and the current Welsh coaching team. Interesting to note that he doesn't see the Scotland game as a must win. Wales are going to finish 4th or 5th so what. He thinks the coaching team should concentrate on getting combinations experience ahead of the tournament that matters - the 6 nations 2021. 

As for the Lions he was obviously batting off questions about the captaincy and stated the obvious which is it will depend on form & fitness during the 6 nations. One thing of interest he did say was he was not averse to picking players who did not feature for their National teams in particular English teams with their huge numbers name checking the Simmons brothers of Exeter. The 23 year old outside half Simmons is surely good enough for Eddie's squad & may well be an outside shot for the Lions with not many I would consider a shoe in after Farrell. Russell is not Gatland's type of player, Sexton is increasingly injury prone and both do not have the goalkicking levels required which would probably lead to compromises having to be made in selection i.e. Farrell at 12 or not playing his best full backs - Hogg or Liam. 

Pasting from another thread - but could see Gatland go for Simmons then - if only to ruffle Eddie Jones feathers 😅


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https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 16 March 2021 at 1:45pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

I think doris struggling mate he got long term concussion issues?

Yes but I think Farrell said he should be back soon. 


Posted By: reesytheexile
Date Posted: 16 March 2021 at 2:14pm
Originally posted by Fscarlet Fscarlet wrote:

It's the wording of his statement I find interesting, the "However, I came to the realisation that my commitment to rugby has started to take an unfair toll on my family, who both in Limerick and South Africa have made considerable sacrifices for more than 25 years to allow me to live my dream."

I wouldn't be surprised to see him turn out for a SA franchise in a year or so.
And Jake Ball for an Australian franchise 

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"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 17 March 2021 at 5:31am
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Mako has always been known as world class around the field but not always world class scrummager...A bit like gethin jenkins who was a decent scrummager but not as specialised as say adam jones

I wouldn't compare the two - Gethin was an absolute machine with a huge engine, and a decent scrummager - I'd say, he always did enough to keep his end up in the scrums, but didn't usually attempt destructive scrummaging, whereas he'd keep going all day around the park - tackling, jackaling and even on one memorable occasion charging down a kick (O'Gara, I think) and scoring a crucial try. Mako is a positive liability at scrum time... he has power as a carrier, but nowhere near Gethin's engine.

As for LH prop for the Lions, if I may return to that - I definitely think that Wyn Jones is way ahead of the other candidates. As for Healy, I put him on the bench because I could not think of any other decent candidates (and don't rate Mako) - but if Sutherland is reckoned to be better, I'm happy to revise that bench slot. Problem is, the Scottish forwards were destroyed by Ireland, so no individual (apart from Watson) got a chance to show much...

In truth, I'd have picked a fit Rob Evans for the bench, but who knows when he'll be back, so... If anyone has a suggested upgrade on Sutherland or Healey, then go with it. It's one of the problem positions ATM.



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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 17 March 2021 at 7:49am
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Mako has always been known as world class around the field but not always world class scrummager...A bit like gethin jenkins who was a decent scrummager but not as specialised as say adam jones

I wouldn't compare the two - Gethin was an absolute machine with a huge engine, and a decent scrummager - I'd say, he always did enough to keep his end up in the scrums, but didn't usually attempt destructive scrummaging, whereas he'd keep going all day around the park - tackling, jackaling and even on one memorable occasion charging down a kick (O'Gara, I think) and scoring a crucial try. Mako is a positive liability at scrum time... he has power as a carrier, but nowhere near Gethin's engine.

As for LH prop for the Lions, if I may return to that - I definitely think that Wyn Jones is way ahead of the other candidates. As for Healy, I put him on the bench because I could not think of any other decent candidates (and don't rate Mako) - but if Sutherland is reckoned to be better, I'm happy to revise that bench slot. Problem is, the Scottish forwards were destroyed by Ireland, so no individual (apart from Watson) got a chance to show much...

In truth, I'd have picked a fit Rob Evans for the bench, but who knows when he'll be back, so... If anyone has a suggested upgrade on Sutherland or Healey, then go with it. It's one of the problem positions ATM.


Firstly Aber I cannot agree with you over Mako. Gatland selected him on the last tour and he has a number of Lions starts under his belt so, for me, he is no liability. I agree with you about Wyn - he has done his job well this tournament & Gatland will not forget how well both Francis & Wyn performed against South Africa in the semi final of the World Cup. He will also remember how England struggled against the same front row in the final once Sinckler went off early. I don't think Healy is the answer but Joe Marler may well be. 


Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 17 March 2021 at 10:31am
I like the other irish prop kilcoyne off the bench , good player and good carrier
 
mako is not the best scrimmage but he is a big carrier and gats likes him (picked him for 2 previous tours)
 
Wyn looks the stand out candidate to start with one of these two coming off the bench to add impact , shame rob evans has been injured for nigh on 2 years he really is a talent but I don't know what level he will come back at


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 21 March 2021 at 8:34am
Well another weekend of games and what have we learnt. Henshaw continues to impress, Wyn Jones has to start at LH surely and Beirne & Henderson have booked their seats on the plane. Conor Murray & Sexton gave a masterclass in game management. LRZ is the best wing available to the Lions - his midfield carrying yesterday was a revelation. His pace really frightens defences and he is just not pace - he has a good rugby brain and can pass. We have unearthed a real gem for the next decade.

My team :-

15. Liam 14. LRZ 13. North 12. Henshaw 11. Watson 10. Sexton 9. Murray
1. Wyn 2. Ken 3. Furlong 4. Itoje 5. Ryan 6. Beirne 7. Curry 8. Faletau

16. Cowan-Dickie 17. Kilcoyne 18. Francis 19. Henderson 20. Tipuric/Navidi 21. Cawdor 22. Biggar 23. Tuilagi/Foxy.


Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 21 March 2021 at 9:03am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Well another weekend of games and what have we learnt. Henshaw continues to impress, Wyn Jones has to start at LH surely and Beirne & Henderson have booked their seats on the plane. Conor Murray & Sexton gave a masterclass in game management. LRZ is the best wing available to the Lions - his midfield carrying yesterday was a revelation. His pace really frightens defences and he is just not pace - he has a good rugby brain and can pass. We have unearthed a real gem for the next decade.

My team :-

15. Liam 14. LRZ 13. North 12. Henshaw 11. Watson 10. Sexton 9. Murray
1. Wyn 2. Ken 3. Furlong 4. Itoje 5. Ryan 6. Beirne 7. Curry 8. Faletau

16. Cowan-Dickie 17. Kilcoyne 18. Francis 19. Henderson 20. Tipuric/Navidi 21. Cawdor 22. Biggar 23. Tuilagi/Foxy.
Have scotland opted out this time?LOL


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 21 March 2021 at 9:32am
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Well another weekend of games and what have we learnt. Henshaw continues to impress, Wyn Jones has to start at LH surely and Beirne & Henderson have booked their seats on the plane. Conor Murray & Sexton gave a masterclass in game management. LRZ is the best wing available to the Lions - his midfield carrying yesterday was a revelation. His pace really frightens defences and he is just not pace - he has a good rugby brain and can pass. We have unearthed a real gem for the next decade.

My team :-

15. Liam 14. LRZ 13. North 12. Henshaw 11. Watson 10. Sexton 9. Murray
1. Wyn 2. Ken 3. Furlong 4. Itoje 5. Ryan 6. Beirne 7. Curry 8. Faletau

16. Cowan-Dickie 17. Kilcoyne 18. Francis 19. Henderson 20. Tipuric/Navidi 21. Cawdor 22. Biggar 23. Tuilagi/Foxy.
Have scotland opted out this time?LOL

I know Nigel I just can't see any/many making the test team. Hogg, Sutherland & Watson I think will tour. A lot of people rave about Russell & van der Merwe but I don't think Russell's goalkicking is good enough and van der Merwe is poor in defence. Time will tell. 


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 21 March 2021 at 9:44am
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Mako has always been known as world class around the field but not always world class scrummager...A bit like gethin jenkins who was a decent scrummager but not as specialised as say adam jones

I wouldn't compare the two - Gethin was an absolute machine with a huge engine, and a decent scrummager - I'd say, he always did enough to keep his end up in the scrums, but didn't usually attempt destructive scrummaging, whereas he'd keep going all day around the park - tackling, jackaling and even on one memorable occasion charging down a kick (O'Gara, I think) and scoring a crucial try. Mako is a positive liability at scrum time... he has power as a carrier, but nowhere near Gethin's engine.

As for LH prop for the Lions, if I may return to that - I definitely think that Wyn Jones is way ahead of the other candidates. As for Healy, I put him on the bench because I could not think of any other decent candidates (and don't rate Mako) - but if Sutherland is reckoned to be better, I'm happy to revise that bench slot. Problem is, the Scottish forwards were destroyed by Ireland, so no individual (apart from Watson) got a chance to show much...

In truth, I'd have picked a fit Rob Evans for the bench, but who knows when he'll be back, so... If anyone has a suggested upgrade on Sutherland or Healey, then go with it. It's one of the problem positions ATM.


Mako struggled big time against Furlong yesterday so your summation looks pretty accurate. Wyn continues to be the stand out LH candidate.



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