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Brexit: the results

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Topic: Brexit: the results
Posted By: aber-fan
Subject: Brexit: the results
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 1:19pm
Many moons ago, I stared a thread on this board entitled 'The Brexit Bonus", intended as a space to debate the pros and cons of Brexit.

It soon became clear to me that convinced Brexiters cold not be persuaded by any arguments to revise their opinions. I suppose, in a way, that was fair enough - nothing had actually happened, so the consequences were projections into the future. So, I more or less stopped posting into my own thread.

This is now a new thread in which I hope people - pro- and anti- Brexit - will post only FACTUAL material about what has happened, and will continue to happen. 

PLEASE use the original 'Brexit Bonus' thread for opinion and commentary.

I am inviting pro- and antis- to post stories about the REAL WORLD EFFECTS and not any projections or comments. I'll be posting a few of my own - just one topic to each post.  That, I hope, will make for some sort of clarity.

This is the first:

Exports of fish and shellfish to the EU

The amount of red tape now needed to export fish and shellfish to the EU has increased substantially since Brexit. This has put the future of several small firms in Wales and Scotland into jeopardy, it seems... we'll see if things get better over time. But, for the present, I was very sorry to hear about the difficulties of a family firm in Pembrokeshire:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-55631622" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-55631622

Some quotes from the report:

Until 1 January, when the new trading deal came into effect, 90% of Welsh shellfish was being exported to the EU - but the industry relies on being able to export to the continent as quickly as possible to keep the produce alive.

Ms Edwards, who exports shellfish from local fishermen, had sent a lorry to the continent via Portsmouth. She has spent two years preparing to export into the EU after Brexit and had been confident after this week's catch that she had all the documentation she needed. £48,000 was already paid to a group of 25 fishers.

But because of issues at the border the consignment was stuck in Portsmouth for 24 hours.

After boarding a ferry to Caen, it was then held by French customs for another seven. Ms Edwards said that the importer in France had made a mistake on the document that he needed to complete.

"I can't do this again next week," she told BBC Wales. "I need a break.

"But I can't leave the fishermen without incomes for long."

She added: "We're a tiny little Welsh company, it's family run - we're fourth generation running it. We can't afford to take the hit."

The businesswoman said it was not only her business affected and there had been others in the queue for the ferry that had been refused.


Meanwhile, in North Wales:


On the Menai Strait, James Wilson of Deepdock Ltd has stopped sending live mussels to the Netherlands until he sees how the new trading relationship between the UK and the EU works out in practice.

"We'll just have to see how much the bureaucracy costs and assess the viability of the trade going forward," he said.

The trader said only one document had to be filled in in the past.

"A colleague sent a load out last week and he had to send 41 bits of paper with his load," he said.

Every bag of mussels has to have its own documentation.

The shellfish industry in Wales is not large - but it is an important part of many communities. It is worth £13.3m, while the mussel industry injects £10.7m into the Welsh economy on top.

There were around 564 regular fishers and 287 part timers, according to a 2017 study by the trade organisation Seafish.

The situation is the same in Scotland, which has a larger seafood industry:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-55661274" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-55661274




-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)



Replies:
Posted By: minded
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

But, for the present, I was very sorry to hear about the difficulties of a family firm in Pembrokeshire:
Brought it on herself:-  https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1183363/brexit-news-no-deal-boris-johnson-wales-fisheries-nerys-edwards-syren-shellfish" rel="nofollow - https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1183363/brexit-news-no-deal-boris-johnson-wales-fisheries-nerys-edwards-syren-shellfish


-------------
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPnAh1r0V9YMx4LjUAXI1AUts5jgBck9u" rel="nofollow - Scarlets Tries of the Season 2009 - 2022


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Many moons ago, I stared a thread on this board entitled 'The Brexit Bonus", intended as a space to debate the pros and cons of Brexit.

It soon became clear to me that convinced Brexiters cold not be persuaded by any arguments to revise their opinions. I suppose, in a way, that was fair enough - nothing had actually happened, so the consequences were projections into the future. So, I more or less stopped posting into my own thread.

This is now a new thread in which I hope people - pro- and anti- Brexit - will post only FACTUAL material about what has happened, and will continue to happen. 

PLEASE use the original 'Brexit Bonus' thread for opinion and commentary.

I am inviting pro- and antis- to post stories about the REAL WORLD EFFECTS and not any projections or comments. I'll be posting a few of my own - just one topic to each post.  That, I hope, will make for some sort of clarity.

This is the first:

Exports of fish and shellfish to the EU

The amount of red tape now needed to export fish and shellfish to the EU has increased substantially since Brexit. This has put the future of several small firms in Wales and Scotland into jeopardy, it seems... we'll see if things get better over time. But, for the present, I was very sorry to hear about the difficulties of a family firm in Pembrokeshire:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-55631622" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-55631622

Some quotes from the report:

Until 1 January, when the new trading deal came into effect, 90% of Welsh shellfish was being exported to the EU - but the industry relies on being able to export to the continent as quickly as possible to keep the produce alive.

Ms Edwards, who exports shellfish from local fishermen, had sent a lorry to the continent via Portsmouth. She has spent two years preparing to export into the EU after Brexit and had been confident after this week's catch that she had all the documentation she needed. £48,000 was already paid to a group of 25 fishers.

But because of issues at the border the consignment was stuck in Portsmouth for 24 hours.

After boarding a ferry to Caen, it was then held by French customs for another seven. Ms Edwards said that the importer in France had made a mistake on the document that he needed to complete.

"I can't do this again next week," she told BBC Wales. "I need a break.

"But I can't leave the fishermen without incomes for long."

She added: "We're a tiny little Welsh company, it's family run - we're fourth generation running it. We can't afford to take the hit."

The businesswoman said it was not only her business affected and there had been others in the queue for the ferry that had been refused.


Meanwhile, in North Wales:


On the Menai Strait, James Wilson of Deepdock Ltd has stopped sending live mussels to the Netherlands until he sees how the new trading relationship between the UK and the EU works out in practice.

"We'll just have to see how much the bureaucracy costs and assess the viability of the trade going forward," he said.

The trader said only one document had to be filled in in the past.

"A colleague sent a load out last week and he had to send 41 bits of paper with his load," he said.

Every bag of mussels has to have its own documentation.

The shellfish industry in Wales is not large - but it is an important part of many communities. It is worth £13.3m, while the mussel industry injects £10.7m into the Welsh economy on top.

There were around 564 regular fishers and 287 part timers, according to a 2017 study by the trade organisation Seafish.

The situation is the same in Scotland, which has a larger seafood industry:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-55661274" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-55661274



Teething problems were bound to happen Aber - from this lady's point of view she appears to have got everything right but her customer didn't. In that case she surely has a strong case for them to pick up any tab. However I can't say I have noticed the m20 being used as carpark or indeed chaos surrounding Welsh ports sailing to Ireland yet as predicted massive queues don't seem to have materialised yet. Still early days though. 


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 1:38pm
Think all know I was anti-Brexit but I feel it is too soon to judge. It will need a couple of years before new regulations have been put in place before we can start to see and compare. As such, we are probably mostly still within the realms of speculation. 

It is fact that we now have an Irish Sea trade border. 


Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 1:40pm
Thanks Aber.

If anyone knows of good fresh fish suppliers that deliver in the U.K., please could they let us know?


-------------
In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 1:45pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Think all know I was anti-Brexit but I feel it is too soon to judge. It will need a couple of years before new regulations have been put in place before we can start to see and compare. As such, we are probably mostly still within the realms of speculation. 

It is fact that we now have an Irish Sea trade border. 

We do indeed Dr M. However much doom and gloom had been peddled pre 31/12/2020  about imminent food shortages in Northern Irish supermarkets due to increased bureaucracy - can't say I have noticed any real time examples.

You are right we all need to take a little longer term view. I am just pleased that the armageddon at Dover & Holyhead never materialised. There will be teething problems for sure but leavers and remainers must be honest about any effects. Too much told you so and point scoring will only sour the debate which will remain relevant. 


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 1:58pm
I did ask for FACTS rather than commentary.

Here is another one - Scottish fishermen are now landing their catch in Denmark, to avoid the red tape:

http://trans.info/en/brexit-customs-issues-see-scots-fishermen-land-in-denmark-217458" rel="nofollow - https://trans.info/en/brexit-customs-issues-see-scots-fishermen-land-in-denmark-217458

A quote:

Wither also explained on Twitter that if boats fish in UK waters, but land in Denmark, processors here are cut out of trade. He also pointed out that fish on boats that dock in Denmark is traded within single market, which is advantageous as it avoids a lot of bureaucracy.


-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 2:00pm
Originally posted by minded minded wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

But, for the present, I was very sorry to hear about the difficulties of a family firm in Pembrokeshire:
Brought it on herself:-  https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1183363/brexit-news-no-deal-boris-johnson-wales-fisheries-nerys-edwards-syren-shellfish" rel="nofollow - https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1183363/brexit-news-no-deal-boris-johnson-wales-fisheries-nerys-edwards-syren-shellfish

True - but the date is significant:

  1. PUBLISHED: 10:28, Fri, Sep 27, 2019
  2. If you were to ask Mrs Edwards today, do you think you would get the same answer?


-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Many moons ago, I stared a thread on this board entitled 'The Brexit Bonus", intended as a space to debate the pros and cons of Brexit.



Ms Edwards, who exports shellfish from local fishermen, had sent a lorry to the continent via Portsmouth. She has spent two years preparing to export into the EU after Brexit and had been confident after this week's catch that she had all the documentation she needed. £48,000 was already paid to a group of 25 fishers.

But because of issues at the border the consignment was stuck in Portsmouth for 24 hours.

After boarding a ferry to Caen, it was then held by French customs for another seven. Ms Edwards said that the importer in France had made a mistake on the document that he needed to complete.

On the Menai Strait, James Wilson of Deepdock Ltd has stopped sending live mussels to the Netherlands until he sees how the new trading relationship between the UK and the EU works out in practice.

"We'll just have to see how much the bureaucracy costs and assess the viability of the trade going forward," he said.

The trader said only one document had to be filled in in the past.

"A colleague sent a load out last week and he had to send 41 bits of paper with his load," he said.

Every bag of mussels has to have its own documentation


Teething problems were bound to happen Aber - from this lady's point of view she appears to have got everything right but her customer didn't. In that case she surely has a strong case for them to pick up any tab. However I can't say I have noticed the m20 being used as carpark or indeed chaos surrounding Welsh ports sailing to Ireland yet as predicted massive queues don't seem to have materialised yet. Still early days though. 

Well, well see.

It seems there was a 24h delay on THIS side of the channel, and only 7h on the other side... suggesting the delay was caused by the British. (The report is not 100% clear on who was to blame on this side.)

The TV interview with Mrs Edwards - in tears - was pretty upsetting, if you saw it - could not find a link, unfortunately.

The point about increased red tape, though - 41 pieces of paper instead of one - are you happy with  that?

Too early to say if Portaloos will need to be installed along the motorway to Dover. We'll see. No facts there yet.


-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 2:10pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

I did ask for FACTS rather than commentary.

Here is another one - Scottish fishermen are now landing their catch in Denmark, to avoid the red tape:

http://trans.info/en/brexit-customs-issues-see-scots-fishermen-land-in-denmark-217458" rel="nofollow - https://trans.info/en/brexit-customs-issues-see-scots-fishermen-land-in-denmark-217458

A quote:

Wither also explained on Twitter that if boats fish in UK waters, but land in Denmark, processors here are cut out of trade. He also pointed out that fish on boats that dock in Denmark is traded within single market, which is advantageous as it avoids a lot of bureaucracy.

Facts without commentary are pretty meaningless Aber. Where do the so called facts come from for instance - to borrow Donald's favourite term fake news surrounds us. However I will desist from commenting in future when you roll out your FACTS. 


Posted By: minded
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by minded minded wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

But, for the present, I was very sorry to hear about the difficulties of a family firm in Pembrokeshire:
Brought it on herself:-  https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1183363/brexit-news-no-deal-boris-johnson-wales-fisheries-nerys-edwards-syren-shellfish" rel="nofollow - https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1183363/brexit-news-no-deal-boris-johnson-wales-fisheries-nerys-edwards-syren-shellfish

True - but the date is significant:

  1. PUBLISHED: 10:28, Fri, Sep 27, 2019
  2. If you were to ask Mrs Edwards today, do you think you would get the same answer?
It's too late to ask her today, she drank the kool aid and now is facing the consequences of her actions.
I have total sympathy for people who voted remain and are now lumped with this burden but in her case it's tough cack.


-------------
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPnAh1r0V9YMx4LjUAXI1AUts5jgBck9u" rel="nofollow - Scarlets Tries of the Season 2009 - 2022


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 2:20pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Many moons ago, I stared a thread on this board entitled 'The Brexit Bonus", intended as a space to debate the pros and cons of Brexit.



Ms Edwards, who exports shellfish from local fishermen, had sent a lorry to the continent via Portsmouth. She has spent two years preparing to export into the EU after Brexit and had been confident after this week's catch that she had all the documentation she needed. £48,000 was already paid to a group of 25 fishers.

But because of issues at the border the consignment was stuck in Portsmouth for 24 hours.

After boarding a ferry to Caen, it was then held by French customs for another seven. Ms Edwards said that the importer in France had made a mistake on the document that he needed to complete.

On the Menai Strait, James Wilson of Deepdock Ltd has stopped sending live mussels to the Netherlands until he sees how the new trading relationship between the UK and the EU works out in practice.

"We'll just have to see how much the bureaucracy costs and assess the viability of the trade going forward," he said.

The trader said only one document had to be filled in in the past.

"A colleague sent a load out last week and he had to send 41 bits of paper with his load," he said.

Every bag of mussels has to have its own documentation


Teething problems were bound to happen Aber - from this lady's point of view she appears to have got everything right but her customer didn't. In that case she surely has a strong case for them to pick up any tab. However I can't say I have noticed the m20 being used as carpark or indeed chaos surrounding Welsh ports sailing to Ireland yet as predicted massive queues don't seem to have materialised yet. Still early days though. 

Well, well see.

It seems there was a 24h delay on THIS side of the channel, and only 7h on the other side... suggesting the delay was caused by the British. (The report is not 100% clear on who was to blame on this side.)

The TV interview with Mrs Edwards - in tears - was pretty upsetting, if you saw it - could not find a link, unfortunately.

The point about increased red tape, though - 41 pieces of paper instead of one - are you happy with  that?

Too early to say if Portaloos will need to be installed along the motorway to Dover. We'll see. No facts there yet.

Well Aber I do have  a fact for you. My small business which I run with my wife from home has always exported a number of orders per week to Europe. Since 01/01/2021 I now have to complete some additional paperwork to accompany my goods to Europe. Is it more time consuming - yes; does it cost me any more money - no; does it bother me - not in the slightest because my decision to vote leave was based on far more important, long term issues. 

WTO rules and regulations would have made export life more demanding but again, from personal experience, nothing to overly concern me. Finally I will leave you with another fact which rather sums up the lunacy of small minded beaurocrats in Brussels - a Uk haulier had his ham & cheese sandwich confiscated at Rotterdam I think - apparently the Uk has suddenly become a major exporter of disease - you really couldn't make it and sums up quite succinctly why its the best thing we've done in many a year. 


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Thanks Aber.

If anyone knows of good fresh fish suppliers that deliver in the U.K., please could they let us know?

As scarce as hens teeth EO even if your within easy reach of Cardigan Bay. Most of the seafood is exported to France & Spain where consumers are prepared to pay better prices & eat a lot more per capita. A few years ago I was on holiday near Perpignan and managed to get Cardigan Bay crab in the local supermarket. I have a hell of job to find any in Cardigan - funny old world. 


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

I did ask for FACTS rather than commentary.

Here is another one - Scottish fishermen are now landing their catch in Denmark, to avoid the red tape:

http://trans.info/en/brexit-customs-issues-see-scots-fishermen-land-in-denmark-217458" rel="nofollow - https://trans.info/en/brexit-customs-issues-see-scots-fishermen-land-in-denmark-217458

A quote:

Wither also explained on Twitter that if boats fish in UK waters, but land in Denmark, processors here are cut out of trade. He also pointed out that fish on boats that dock in Denmark is traded within single market, which is advantageous as it avoids a lot of bureaucracy.

Facts without commentary are pretty meaningless Aber. Where do the so called facts come from for instance - to borrow Donald's favourite term fake news surrounds us. However I will desist from commenting in future when you roll out your FACTS. 

I'm astonished to see this comment.

I have posted links to NEWS REPORTS where you can VERY EASILY track down the quotes I provide. (Most so far have been links to BBC reports.)

If you don't like the FACTS, then by all means stick to FACT-FREE COMMENTARY. 

If that's what floats your boat!

In the meantime, I'll continue to post FACTS whether people like it or not.

Here is another report from BBC Scotland:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-55661274" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-55661274

A Scottish shellfish firm has warned it is on the brink of bankruptcy as delays continue at ports following the introduction of post-Brexit red tape.

Lochfyne Langoustines managing director Jamie McMillan said his firm had already lost some consignments after they were found to be rotten by the time they arrived in France.

He also warned EU customers were now going to Denmark to buy langoustines.

Mr McMillan described it as a "very, very serious situation".



-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

I did ask for FACTS rather than commentary.

Here is another one - Scottish fishermen are now landing their catch in Denmark, to avoid the red tape:

http://trans.info/en/brexit-customs-issues-see-scots-fishermen-land-in-denmark-217458" rel="nofollow - https://trans.info/en/brexit-customs-issues-see-scots-fishermen-land-in-denmark-217458

A quote:

Wither also explained on Twitter that if boats fish in UK waters, but land in Denmark, processors here are cut out of trade. He also pointed out that fish on boats that dock in Denmark is traded within single market, which is advantageous as it avoids a lot of bureaucracy.

Facts without commentary are pretty meaningless Aber. Where do the so called facts come from for instance - to borrow Donald's favourite term fake news surrounds us. However I will desist from commenting in future when you roll out your FACTS. 

I'm astonished to see this comment.

I have posted links to NEWS REPORTS where you can VERY EASILY track down the quotes I provide. (Most so far have been links to BBC reports.)

If you don't like the FACTS, then by all means stick to FACT-FREE COMMENTARY. 

If that's what floats your boat!

In the meantime, I'll continue to post FACTS whether people like it or not.

Steady on Aber - no need to blow a gasket. My comment was pretty reasonable - facts can be gleaned from all sorts of places many, including the BBC are open to debate. I didn't say any of your quoted facts were incorrect so you need to slow down a little. All the facts that I have quoted, which so far you haven't commented on, are actually based on my personal experiences. 


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 3:02pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Thanks Aber.

If anyone knows of good fresh fish suppliers that deliver in the U.K., please could they let us know?

As scarce as hens teeth EO even if your within easy reach of Cardigan Bay. Most of the seafood is exported to France & Spain where consumers are prepared to pay better prices & eat a lot more per capita. A few years ago I was on holiday near Perpignan and managed to get Cardigan Bay crab in the local supermarket. I have a hell of job to find any in Cardigan - funny old world. 

How true - hence the problem.

Our local fish shop usually supplies excellent fresh fish and seafood from Cardigan Bay and elsewhere - http://www.facebook.com/JonahsFishMarket/" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/JonahsFishMarket/

However, the post-holiday reopening is now "DELAYED UNTIL
WEDNESDAY 3RD FEBRUARY 2021*
THIS IS DUE TO VARIOUS
EXTERNAL FACTORS THAT HAS MASSIVELY AFFECTED OUR
SUPPLY OF FRESH FISH."

I don't know what the factors are, but will ask next time I get the chance... so this is SPECULATION: could it be that the fishermen can't be bothered to fish until they know they can safely export most of their catch to the EU? (I must add that the weather hasn't been too good the last couple of days, but was calm for quite a while before that.) - So, that bit is not a FACT (yet).


-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: Dic Penderyn
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 3:06pm
I think it a little early to judge the results of Brexit,whatever side of the debate we occupy.We haven't been out of the EU for a fortnight yet!


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Thanks Aber.

If anyone knows of good fresh fish suppliers that deliver in the U.K., please could they let us know?

As scarce as hens teeth EO even if your within easy reach of Cardigan Bay. Most of the seafood is exported to France & Spain where consumers are prepared to pay better prices & eat a lot more per capita. A few years ago I was on holiday near Perpignan and managed to get Cardigan Bay crab in the local supermarket. I have a hell of job to find any in Cardigan - funny old world. 

How true - hence the problem.

Our local fish shop usually supplies excellent fresh fish and seafood from Cardigan Bay and elsewhere - http://www.facebook.com/JonahsFishMarket/" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/JonahsFishMarket/

However, the post-holiday reopening is now "DELAYED UNTIL
WEDNESDAY 3RD FEBRUARY 2021*
THIS IS DUE TO VARIOUS
EXTERNAL FACTORS THAT HAS MASSIVELY AFFECTED OUR
SUPPLY OF FRESH FISH."

I don't know what the factors are, but will ask next time I get the chance... so this is SPECULATION: could it be that the fishermen can't be bothered to fish until they know they can safely export most of their catch to the EU? (I must add that the weather hasn't been too good the last couple of days, but was calm for quite a while before that.) - So, that bit is not a FACT (yet).

There you go EO they may be able to help you with onjline deliveries. May I suggest Aber that the external factors may include lockdown issues. 


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

I did ask for FACTS rather than commentary.

Here is another one - Scottish fishermen are now landing their catch in Denmark, to avoid the red tape:

http://trans.info/en/brexit-customs-issues-see-scots-fishermen-land-in-denmark-217458" rel="nofollow - https://trans.info/en/brexit-customs-issues-see-scots-fishermen-land-in-denmark-217458

A quote:

Wither also explained on Twitter that if boats fish in UK waters, but land in Denmark, processors here are cut out of trade. He also pointed out that fish on boats that dock in Denmark is traded within single market, which is advantageous as it avoids a lot of bureaucracy.

Facts without commentary are pretty meaningless Aber. Where do the so called facts come from for instance - to borrow Donald's favourite term fake news surrounds us. However I will desist from commenting in future when you roll out your FACTS. 

I'm astonished to see this comment.

I have posted links to NEWS REPORTS where you can VERY EASILY track down the quotes I provide. (Most so far have been links to BBC reports.)

If you don't like the FACTS, then by all means stick to FACT-FREE COMMENTARY. 

If that's what floats your boat!

In the meantime, I'll continue to post FACTS whether people like it or not.

Steady on Aber - no need to blow a gasket. My comment was pretty reasonable - facts can be gleaned from all sorts of places many, including the BBC are open to debate. I didn't say any of your quoted facts were incorrect so you need to slow down a little. All the facts that I have quoted, which so far you haven't commented on, are actually based on my personal experiences. 

I hadn't seen your comment - but as I have no knowledge of your business, can't really say anything sensible about it.

My comments are more to do with large scale effects on many people, or on SECTORS of the economy such as fishing.

It seems that the bureaucracy relating to the export of fish and shellfish is leading to catches being lost due to red tape delays at the ports, and to fishermen from Scotland landing their catches in Denmark to avoid all that. 

Do you dispute any of that? If so, on what grounds? (I did say I'd stick to one topic at a time, so unless you export fish there's nothing I can debate with you!)


-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: Dic Penderyn
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 3:12pm
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
Headers on here,fair play!


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Thanks Aber.

If anyone knows of good fresh fish suppliers that deliver in the U.K., please could they let us know?

As scarce as hens teeth EO even if your within easy reach of Cardigan Bay. Most of the seafood is exported to France & Spain where consumers are prepared to pay better prices & eat a lot more per capita. A few years ago I was on holiday near Perpignan and managed to get Cardigan Bay crab in the local supermarket. I have a hell of job to find any in Cardigan - funny old world. 

How true - hence the problem.

Our local fish shop usually supplies excellent fresh fish and seafood from Cardigan Bay and elsewhere - http://www.facebook.com/JonahsFishMarket/" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/JonahsFishMarket/

However, the post-holiday reopening is now "DELAYED UNTIL
WEDNESDAY 3RD FEBRUARY 2021*
THIS IS DUE TO VARIOUS
EXTERNAL FACTORS THAT HAS MASSIVELY AFFECTED OUR
SUPPLY OF FRESH FISH."

I don't know what the factors are, but will ask next time I get the chance... so this is SPECULATION: could it be that the fishermen can't be bothered to fish until they know they can safely export most of their catch to the EU? (I must add that the weather hasn't been too good the last couple of days, but was calm for quite a while before that.) - So, that bit is not a FACT (yet).

There you go EO they may be able to help you with onjline deliveries. May I suggest Aber that the external factors may include lockdown issues. 

i shall try to find out. In the meantime - it's a pity they are not re-opening yet.


-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by Dic Penderyn Dic Penderyn wrote:

LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
Headers on here,fair play!

Headers with FACTS - some of us, anyway!Wink


-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: Dic Penderyn
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 3:20pm
Great stuff,boys-honestly.Inadvertently or not,you've lifted a little of my gloom today.
ClapClapClapClapClapClap


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by Dic Penderyn Dic Penderyn wrote:

Great stuff,boys-honestly.Inadvertently or not,you've lifted a little of my gloom today.
ClapClapClapClapClapClap

You know - I was a bit down before Christmas (that went so well, didn't it?) but have got the bit between my teeth this new year!


-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

I did ask for FACTS rather than commentary.

Here is another one - Scottish fishermen are now landing their catch in Denmark, to avoid the red tape:

http://trans.info/en/brexit-customs-issues-see-scots-fishermen-land-in-denmark-217458" rel="nofollow - https://trans.info/en/brexit-customs-issues-see-scots-fishermen-land-in-denmark-217458

A quote:

Wither also explained on Twitter that if boats fish in UK waters, but land in Denmark, processors here are cut out of trade. He also pointed out that fish on boats that dock in Denmark is traded within single market, which is advantageous as it avoids a lot of bureaucracy.

Facts without commentary are pretty meaningless Aber. Where do the so called facts come from for instance - to borrow Donald's favourite term fake news surrounds us. However I will desist from commenting in future when you roll out your FACTS. 

I'm astonished to see this comment.

I have posted links to NEWS REPORTS where you can VERY EASILY track down the quotes I provide. (Most so far have been links to BBC reports.)

If you don't like the FACTS, then by all means stick to FACT-FREE COMMENTARY. 

If that's what floats your boat!

In the meantime, I'll continue to post FACTS whether people like it or not.

Steady on Aber - no need to blow a gasket. My comment was pretty reasonable - facts can be gleaned from all sorts of places many, including the BBC are open to debate. I didn't say any of your quoted facts were incorrect so you need to slow down a little. All the facts that I have quoted, which so far you haven't commented on, are actually based on my personal experiences. 

I hadn't seen your comment - but as I have no knowledge of your business, can't really say anything sensible about it.

My comments are more to do with large scale effects on many people, or on SECTORS of the economy such as fishing.

It seems that the bureaucracy relating to the export of fish and shellfish is leading to catches being lost due to red tape delays at the ports, and to fishermen from Scotland landing their catches in Denmark to avoid all that. 

Do you dispute any of that? If so, on what grounds? (I did say I'd stick to one topic at a time, so unless you export fish there's nothing I can debate with you!)

A question you asked was linked to red tape hence my response as someone who has suffered with the red tape myself. I do not see that you need to know my business to understand my response. Most if not all of your facts to date revolve around the fishing industry. Of course any delays when you export fresh goods are unwelcome. Anyone involved needs to make sure that not only their paperwork is in order but also their customers. 

The fishing industry was always going to be a problem. I would make the following observations though - if our seafood had such good demand from Europe before 31/12/2020 I cannot see any valid insurmountable problem for it not to be equally as attractive post 31/12/2020. In the grand scheme of things the fishing industry equates to a very small % of our GDP.


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by Dic Penderyn Dic Penderyn wrote:

LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
Headers on here,fair play!

Headers with FACTS - some of us, anyway!Wink

Help me out here Dic munCry. Just cos Aber's wife is French he's gone all De Gaulle on meConfusedWink


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 3:37pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

I did ask for FACTS rather than commentary.

Here is another one - Scottish fishermen are now landing their catch in Denmark, to avoid the red tape:

http://trans.info/en/brexit-customs-issues-see-scots-fishermen-land-in-denmark-217458" rel="nofollow - https://trans.info/en/brexit-customs-issues-see-scots-fishermen-land-in-denmark-217458

A quote:

Wither also explained on Twitter that if boats fish in UK waters, but land in Denmark, processors here are cut out of trade. He also pointed out that fish on boats that dock in Denmark is traded within single market, which is advantageous as it avoids a lot of bureaucracy.

Facts without commentary are pretty meaningless Aber. Where do the so called facts come from for instance - to borrow Donald's favourite term fake news surrounds us. However I will desist from commenting in future when you roll out your FACTS. 

I'm astonished to see this comment.

I have posted links to NEWS REPORTS where you can VERY EASILY track down the quotes I provide. (Most so far have been links to BBC reports.)

If you don't like the FACTS, then by all means stick to FACT-FREE COMMENTARY. 

If that's what floats your boat!

In the meantime, I'll continue to post FACTS whether people like it or not.

Steady on Aber - no need to blow a gasket. My comment was pretty reasonable - facts can be gleaned from all sorts of places many, including the BBC are open to debate. I didn't say any of your quoted facts were incorrect so you need to slow down a little. All the facts that I have quoted, which so far you haven't commented on, are actually based on my personal experiences. 

I hadn't seen your comment - but as I have no knowledge of your business, can't really say anything sensible about it.

My comments are more to do with large scale effects on many people, or on SECTORS of the economy such as fishing.

It seems that the bureaucracy relating to the export of fish and shellfish is leading to catches being lost due to red tape delays at the ports, and to fishermen from Scotland landing their catches in Denmark to avoid all that. 

Do you dispute any of that? If so, on what grounds? (I did say I'd stick to one topic at a time, so unless you export fish there's nothing I can debate with you!)

A question you asked was linked to red tape hence my response as someone who has suffered with the red tape myself. I do not see that you need to know my business to understand my response. Most if not all of your facts to date revolve around the fishing industry. Of course any delays when you export fresh goods are unwelcome. Anyone involved needs to make sure that not only their paperwork is in order but also their customers. 

The fishing industry was always going to be a problem. I would make the following observations though - if our seafood had such good demand from Europe before 31/12/2020 I cannot see any valid insurmountable problem for it not to be equally as attractive post 31/12/2020. In the grand scheme of things the fishing industry equates to a very small % of our GDP.

GPR - if you care to look back to my first post in this thread, you will see that I made it crystal clear that each post of mine would deal with a SINGLE issue - for the very good reason that, if we start to debate a lot of different sectors, soon no-one can see the wood for the trees.

So - the thread (so far) deals with fishing, the increased bureaucracy caused by Brexit, the fact that fish and seafood 'go off' pretty quickly if trapped at posts, and the fact that this puts companies and jobs at risk. 

You have not contradicted any of these points.

I did invite EVERYONE -  brexiters as well as remainers - to post FACTS relating to how things have changed since 1 January.

My idea is this - people can post POSITIVE stories on how Brexit has improved their lives, or NEGATIVE stories on how it has made things more difficult - without commentary.

Instead of attempting to undermine (unsuccessfully) what I have posted so far about fishing, would it not be more profitable for you to post some 'good news stories' about Brexit as a balance?

I would only ask that you post FACTUALLY BASED stories about what is happening NOW, not some pie-in- the sky promises about what might happen at some undefined future date. That sort of thing doesn't count.


-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

I did ask for FACTS rather than commentary.

Here is another one - Scottish fishermen are now landing their catch in Denmark, to avoid the red tape:

http://trans.info/en/brexit-customs-issues-see-scots-fishermen-land-in-denmark-217458" rel="nofollow - https://trans.info/en/brexit-customs-issues-see-scots-fishermen-land-in-denmark-217458

A quote:

Wither also explained on Twitter that if boats fish in UK waters, but land in Denmark, processors here are cut out of trade. He also pointed out that fish on boats that dock in Denmark is traded within single market, which is advantageous as it avoids a lot of bureaucracy.

Facts without commentary are pretty meaningless Aber. Where do the so called facts come from for instance - to borrow Donald's favourite term fake news surrounds us. However I will desist from commenting in future when you roll out your FACTS. 

I'm astonished to see this comment.

I have posted links to NEWS REPORTS where you can VERY EASILY track down the quotes I provide. (Most so far have been links to BBC reports.)

If you don't like the FACTS, then by all means stick to FACT-FREE COMMENTARY. 

If that's what floats your boat!

In the meantime, I'll continue to post FACTS whether people like it or not.

Steady on Aber - no need to blow a gasket. My comment was pretty reasonable - facts can be gleaned from all sorts of places many, including the BBC are open to debate. I didn't say any of your quoted facts were incorrect so you need to slow down a little. All the facts that I have quoted, which so far you haven't commented on, are actually based on my personal experiences. 

I hadn't seen your comment - but as I have no knowledge of your business, can't really say anything sensible about it.

My comments are more to do with large scale effects on many people, or on SECTORS of the economy such as fishing.

It seems that the bureaucracy relating to the export of fish and shellfish is leading to catches being lost due to red tape delays at the ports, and to fishermen from Scotland landing their catches in Denmark to avoid all that. 

Do you dispute any of that? If so, on what grounds? (I did say I'd stick to one topic at a time, so unless you export fish there's nothing I can debate with you!)

A question you asked was linked to red tape hence my response as someone who has suffered with the red tape myself. I do not see that you need to know my business to understand my response. Most if not all of your facts to date revolve around the fishing industry. Of course any delays when you export fresh goods are unwelcome. Anyone involved needs to make sure that not only their paperwork is in order but also their customers. 

The fishing industry was always going to be a problem. I would make the following observations though - if our seafood had such good demand from Europe before 31/12/2020 I cannot see any valid insurmountable problem for it not to be equally as attractive post 31/12/2020. In the grand scheme of things the fishing industry equates to a very small % of our GDP.

GPR - if you care to look back to my first post in this thread, you will see that I made it crystal clear that each post of mine would deal with a SINGLE issue - for the very good reason that, if we start to debate a lot of different sectors, soon no-one can see the wood for the trees.

So - the thread (so far) deals with fishing, the increased bureaucracy caused by Brexit, the fact that fish and seafood 'go off' pretty quickly if trapped at posts, and the fact that this puts companies and jobs at risk. 

You have not contradicted any of these points.

I did invite EVERYONE -  brexiters as well as remainers - to post FACTS relating to how things have changed since 1 January.

My idea is this - people can post POSITIVE stories on how Brexit has improved their lives, or NEGATIVE stories on how it has made things more difficult - without commentary.

Instead of attempting to undermine (unsuccessfully) what I have posted so far about fishing, would it not be more profitable for you to post some 'good news stories' about Brexit as a balance?

I would only ask that you post FACTUALLY BASED stories about what is happening NOW, not some pie-in- the sky promises about what might happen at some undefined future date. That sort of thing doesn't count.

Clearly Aber you feel very strongly about this which, of course, is your prerogative. I do not intend to spend my time searching for good news stories which only serve to wind up further those on here who do not share my views. I have given first hand experience of my small export business which has suffered some minor disruption. My view remains strongly that leaving was by far the correct decision. On that note I think I will take my leave of this thread. 


Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 4:49pm
Well here's a FACT.  Goods being delivered to my business from France that were due last week will not now arrive until next month at the earliest or so I'm told.

And don't forget.........

........the trade deal on services has not yet been done, only the trade deal on goods.  A long way to go before we can really judge. 


-------------
In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 4:50pm
I forgot to post this earlier - the Fisheries Minister could not be bothered to read the relevant section of the final text of the agreement. She was too busy - sorting out a nativity!

You could not make it up.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/13/fisheries-minister-admits-not-reading-brexit-bill-as-she-was-at-nativity" rel="nofollow - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/13/fisheries-minister-admits-not-reading-brexit-bill-as-she-was-at-nativity

Downing Street has said Boris Johnson maintains confidence in the fisheries minister after she admitted not reading the post-Brexit trade deal with Brussels when it was agreed because she was busy organising a nativity trail.

Victoria Prentis faced calls for her to quit after the comments, but the prime minister is standing by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) minister.

The SNP’s  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/eu-referendum" rel="nofollow - Brexit  spokesperson, Philippa Whitford, said: “Due to Brexit-induced bureaucracy, Scotland’s fishing communities are already experiencing severe disruption and cannot get their produce to their customers in the EU market on time.

“For the Tory government’s fisheries minister to then admit that she did not even bother to read the details of the damaging deal because she was too busy is unbelievable and makes her position untenable.”



-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 4:56pm
I see that 'supporters of Brexit' have so far been unable to post any good news stories relating to the event.

Not even the £350 million a week for the NHS? No?

So, in the absence of any good news from Brexiters, I'll help them out with one or two: here's the first - 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55499773" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55499773

Boris Johnson's dad has applied for French citizenship. The fewer Johnsons in the UK, the better - aas far as I'm concerned.

It will be even better news when Boris follows suit.


-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 7:09pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Thanks Aber.

If anyone knows of good fresh fish suppliers that deliver in the U.K., please could they let us know?

As scarce as hens teeth EO even if your within easy reach of Cardigan Bay. Most of the seafood is exported to France & Spain where consumers are prepared to pay better prices & eat a lot more per capita. A few years ago I was on holiday near Perpignan and managed to get Cardigan Bay crab in the local supermarket. I have a hell of job to find any in Cardigan - funny old world. 

How true - hence the problem.

Our local fish shop usually supplies excellent fresh fish and seafood from Cardigan Bay and elsewhere - http://www.facebook.com/JonahsFishMarket/" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/JonahsFishMarket/

However, the post-holiday reopening is now "DELAYED UNTIL
WEDNESDAY 3RD FEBRUARY 2021*
THIS IS DUE TO VARIOUS
EXTERNAL FACTORS THAT HAS MASSIVELY AFFECTED OUR
SUPPLY OF FRESH FISH."

I don't know what the factors are, but will ask next time I get the chance... so this is SPECULATION: could it be that the fishermen can't be bothered to fish until they know they can safely export most of their catch to the EU? (I must add that the weather hasn't been too good the last couple of days, but was calm for quite a while before that.) - So, that bit is not a FACT (yet).

There you go EO they may be able to help you with onjline deliveries. May I suggest Aber that the external factors may include lockdown issues. 
Thanks Aber. I’ll give them a call and see if I can find out anything.

-------------
In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 7:38pm
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

I see that 'supporters of Brexit' have so far been unable to post any good news stories relating to the event.

Not even the £350 million a week for the NHS? No?

So, in the absence of any good news from Brexiters, I'll help them out with one or two: here's the first - 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55499773" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55499773

Boris Johnson's dad has applied for French citizenship. The fewer Johnsons in the UK, the better - aas far as I'm concerned.

It will be even better news when Boris follows suit.
that's because a lot of leave supporters found from farage that it was a lie,it was the only reason i voted leave and looking at the nhs it was a damn good reason so it's a bit churlish to bring that up as you and i know that it is not relevant,now.


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 14 January 2021 at 9:52pm
Well we had two referendums so it is what it is now. 


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 15 January 2021 at 8:11am
Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

Well we had two referendums so it is what it is now. 

How funny, I guess that means leave voters didn't respect the results of the first referendum. I thought that it was anti-democratic to ask for a second referendum?

Obviously I'm just on a wind up. 


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 15 January 2021 at 8:12am
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

I see that 'supporters of Brexit' have so far been unable to post any good news stories relating to the event.

Not even the £350 million a week for the NHS? No?

So, in the absence of any good news from Brexiters, I'll help them out with one or two: here's the first - 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55499773" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55499773

Boris Johnson's dad has applied for French citizenship. The fewer Johnsons in the UK, the better - aas far as I'm concerned.

It will be even better news when Boris follows suit.
that's because a lot of leave supporters found from farage that it was a lie,it was the only reason i voted leave and looking at the nhs it was a damn good reason so it's a bit churlish to bring that up as you and i know that it is not relevant,now.

I am reminded Nigel by some of the comments on this thread about my time playing cricket with a Yorkshire bowler in sunny Zambia. After a rather fortuitous, shall I say, LBW decision against one of our fiercest rivals the crest fallen batsmen trudged back to the pavilion muttering many expletives to my bowler friend along the way. The bowler took it all on the chin until he crossed the rope and advised the batsmen to " look in the f...ing book" which indeed showed he was out. 


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 15 January 2021 at 8:18am
In a cricket analogy you're going with then Brexit one of the worst match-fixing scandals around.

Won't post again here unless facts but it's too soon for me to judge pros or cons.


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 15 January 2021 at 8:27am
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

In a cricket analogy you're going with then Brexit one of the worst match-fixing scandals around.

Won't post again here unless facts but it's too soon for me to judge pros or cons.

Careful there Dr M - the fact police are watching. Confused


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 15 January 2021 at 9:06am
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

I see that 'supporters of Brexit' have so far been unable to post any good news stories relating to the event.

Not even the £350 million a week for the NHS? No?

So, in the absence of any good news from Brexiters, I'll help them out with one or two: here's the first - 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55499773" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55499773

Boris Johnson's dad has applied for French citizenship. The fewer Johnsons in the UK, the better - aas far as I'm concerned.

It will be even better news when Boris follows suit.
that's because a lot of leave supporters found from farage that it was a lie,it was the only reason i voted leave and looking at the nhs it was a damn good reason so it's a bit churlish to bring that up as you and i know that it is not relevant,now.

You make an excellent point Nigel. I defy anyone, from any walk of life whether PHD's or not, to try to give a balanced assessment of the effects of Brexit on the UK economy over the next 5-10 years. The covid pandemic has completely overtaken events and made any comparisons seem pretty frivolous. Economies around the World will be feeling the negative effects for decades.

For me Brexit has gone, whether we are still waiting to negotiate aspects post brexit or not - it is pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Our 100% concentration now should be on pulling together to defeat this killer and try to build a fairer more equal society from the rubble of our post pandemic economy. 


Posted By: Dai Guevara
Date Posted: 15 January 2021 at 4:21pm
If you get your news from the BBC or the Guardian you must not expect anything positive about Brexit, Trump, Russia, China, Iran, Syria, Cuba, Venezuela whereas anyone that has anything negative to say about them will be welcomed and allowed evidence free speculation, which is then quietly forgotten if proved baseless (eg Trump's Russiagate nonsense which was taken seriously enough by his accusers and investigated in the Mueller Report which found zero evidence). BBC World service probably mentioned the exoneration quietly at 3 am but compared to the insinuations beforehand it was virtually inaudible.


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 15 January 2021 at 4:31pm
I dont know why more people arent concerned that twitter amazon and google are simply shutting down their opposition taking them offline and decimating free speech. Look forward to a future of news networks owned by these tax dodging corporations paying lip service to real news and simply spewing out corporate propoganda 24/7

-------------
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 15 January 2021 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

I dont know why more people arent concerned that twitter amazon and google are simply shutting down their opposition taking them offline and decimating free speech. Look forward to a future of news networks owned by these tax dodging corporations paying lip service to real news and simply spewing out corporate propoganda 24/7
You need to get out more roy.LOL


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 15 January 2021 at 10:44pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

Well we had two referendums so it is what it is now. 

How funny, I guess that means leave voters didn't respect the results of the first referendum. I thought that it was anti-democratic to ask for a second referendum?

Obviously I'm just on a wind up. 

The general election kind of underlined the fact the referendum was the correct result. 


Posted By: Jones2004
Date Posted: 15 January 2021 at 11:02pm
Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by SA14 SA14 wrote:

Well we had two referendums so it is what it is now. 

How funny, I guess that means leave voters didn't respect the results of the first referendum. I thought that it was anti-democratic to ask for a second referendum?

Obviously I'm just on a wind up. 
The general election kind of underlined the fact the referendum was the correct result. 
In the general election 52% voted for parties that supported a second referendum. Obviously Brexit is done now and I’m not here to moan about it but that statement is simply not true.


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 16 January 2021 at 6:36am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

I see that 'supporters of Brexit' have so far been unable to post any good news stories relating to the event.

Not even the £350 million a week for the NHS? No?

So, in the absence of any good news from Brexiters, I'll help them out with one or two: here's the first - 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55499773" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55499773

Boris Johnson's dad has applied for French citizenship. The fewer Johnsons in the UK, the better - aas far as I'm concerned.

It will be even better news when Boris follows suit.
that's because a lot of leave supporters found from farage that it was a lie,it was the only reason i voted leave and looking at the nhs it was a damn good reason so it's a bit churlish to bring that up as you and i know that it is not relevant,now.

You make an excellent point Nigel. I defy anyone, from any walk of life whether PHD's or not, to try to give a balanced assessment of the effects of Brexit on the UK economy over the next 5-10 years. The covid pandemic has completely overtaken events and made any comparisons seem pretty frivolous. Economies around the World will be feeling the negative effects for decades.


Earlier, you wrote something sensible about a batsman "looking in the book" to see the umpire's decision.

That is what I am doing now - looking in the 'Brexit book' to see the results - no more, no less.

I am still waiting for any Brexiters to post on here a single benefit which they can point to since 1 January 2021.

You voted for it - you now have to own it.

It's true that the COVID disaster will muddy the waters, but I shall try to stick to things which have only happened because of Brexit - such as the vastly increased amount of paperwork for food exporters - and not just fishermen, but meat exporters too:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55680315" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55680315

Some quotes from this BBC report (BTW - the BBC is run by Conservatives these days):

UK meat exporters have claimed post-Brexit customs systems are "not fit for purpose", with goods delayed for hours, sometimes days, at the border.

The British Meat Processor Association said even experienced exporters were struggling with the system.

It said meat exports to the EU were 25% of normal levels for this time of year.

One large French meat importer told the BBC that he and his competitors were starting to look at alternative suppliers in Spain and Ireland.


Nick Allen, chief executive of the British Meat Processor Association, said: "Fundamentally, this is not a system that was designed for a 24/7, just-in-time supply chain.

"The export health certification process was designed for moving containers of frozen meat around the world where you have a bit of leeway on time.

"No matter how much better we get at filling in the forms, it's really not fit for purpose. This is going back to the dark ages in terms of a process really, in this digital age."

He added "It's going to be a problem for quite a time until we move forward and hopefully get a better digital system in place and can make it work a bit better, but until then, we've got to put up with all this paperwork and lorries arriving in Ireland with box files full of paper."

Rizvan Khalid, a lamb exporter based in Shropshire, cannot afford to get the paperwork wrong.

His company, Euro Quality Lambs, exports 70% of its meat to the EU, including France, Germany, Belgium and Portugal. He says what was once a once well-oiled machine now has a spanner in it.

"What used to take us 15 minutes is now taking us three or four hours on average before we can get the paperwork completed for one particular load," he says.

"It's taking them [on the French side] up to six hours to go through the health certificates, to open up the lorry and check the goods.

"All of that is adding time and costs. It's now an extra day before our product gets into the markets of Paris."


Down at the international freight checkpoint in Ashford, near the entrance to the Eurotunnel, customs consultant Steve Cocks gave a downbeat assessment.

"The temporary border post lorry park is full, roads are being closed off and lorries are being sent back to the Covid testing site to hold them there," he said.

"Last week wasn't much to write home about as it was very quiet, but volumes are building and it's just going to get worse. Exports are grinding to a halt and that will affect imports, but if you are a haulier. you don't want to get a lorry stuck on this side of the Channel."

After decades of friction-free trade, there are bound to be teething problems. Indeed, the government predicted that there would be "significant additional disruption" as traders, officials and customers became accustomed to new procedures.

However, some things cannot "bed in" and will become permanent features. HMRC estimates the additional cost to UK business of bog-standard customs declarations alone at £7bn.

When buyers and sellers want to trade, they will find a way, but significant additional cost and complexity is here to stay.


As I said at the start - I'm posting FACTS here. People can make up their own minds, but please read the reports. Don't ignore them in a 'three wise monkeys' way, and pretend this stuff isn't happening - because it is.



-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 16 January 2021 at 7:00am
Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

If you get your news from the BBC or the Guardian you must not expect anything positive about Brexit, Trump, Russia, China, Iran, Syria, Cuba, Venezuela whereas anyone that has anything negative to say about them will be welcomed and allowed evidence free speculation, which is then quietly forgotten if proved baseless (eg Trump's Russiagate nonsense which was taken seriously enough by his accusers and investigated in the Mueller Report which found zero evidence). BBC World service probably mentioned the exoneration quietly at 3 am but compared to the insinuations beforehand it was virtually inaudible.

I disagree with practically everything you say in this post, and would like to see you stand up your claims, but I don't want to get sidelined by other issues, as I don't have the time or the inclination.Please open a NEW THREAD if you want to discuss those issues in detail.

Just one correction which I feel HAS to be made here - concerning the BBC - since if you are going to make the claim that BBC comments on Brexit can't be trusted, or that the corporation is part of some sort of left-wing plot - I really can't allow that to stand. So, once again, I'll stick to the FACTS. If you find ANYTHING AT ALL in this report which is factually incorrect, please let me know and I'll edit it and post a correction.

Can't say fairer than that, can I?

You write: If you get your news from the BBC... you must not expect anything positive about Brexit...

I really don't know who you THINK runs the BBC nowadays, but in fact it has been in Tory hands for years - not surprising, given that they have been in power since 2010.

For example - the new Chair of the BBC, Richard Sharp, has donated £400,000 to the Tories in recent years. He has worked for the bank Goldman Sachs in a senior role for 23 years. He was Rishi Sunak's boss. He worked with Boris Johnson when he was Mayor of London. 

So what about the director general, then? He must be a dyed-in-the-wool leftie, no? Well... no. He - Tim Davie - is also a Conservative.

All of this information is out there, and Google will find it for you in an instant.

Some quotes on Sharp and Davie, from the Byline Times (you will find exactly the same FACTS reported on very many other news websites):

http://bylinetimes.com/2021/01/06/new-bbc-chairman-richard-sharp-donated-more-than-400000-to-conservative-party/" rel="nofollow - https://bylinetimes.com/2021/01/06/new-bbc-chairman-richard-sharp-donated-more-than-400000-to-conservative-party/


The newly-appointed Chairman of the BBC has donated more than £400,000 to the Conservative Party since 2001, Electoral Commission records show.

Earlier today, it was announced that former Goldman Sachs banker Richard Sharp is set to be appointed as the chairman of the BBC’s board of directors.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55560711" rel="nofollow - According to  the BBC’s Media Editor Amol Rajan, Sharp’s new role “will see him lead negotiations with the Government over the future of the licence fee”.

Sharp spent 23 years working for New York banking giant Goldman Sachs and reportedly oversaw the work of Rishi Sunak, during the now Chancellor’s early career in the finance industry. Latterly, Sharp was on the Bank of England’s Financial Policy Committee for six years until 2019.

It also seems that the new BBC Chairman has made a minor career in the field of Conservative Party fundraising – donating an estimated £416,189 to the party and its politicians since the turn of the century.

It appears as though Sharp’s latest donation to the Conservatives was in 2019, when he gave £2,500 to the Hereford and South Herefordshire branch of the party. From 2008 to 2010, he ploughed a whopping £211,590 into central party coffers.

Sharp has also since 2002 been a  https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/officers/-0HQx7_q64VG2KDzTg_GjoYhq20/appointments" rel="nofollow - director  at the Centre for Policy Studies – a right-wing think tank that has published  https://www.cps.org.uk/research/a-licence-to-kill-funding-the-bbc/" rel="nofollow - studies  calling for the abolition of the licence fee and  https://www.cps.org.uk/research/bias-at-the-beeb/" rel="nofollow - accusing  the BBC of having a left-wing bias.

His appointment follows that of Tim Davie, who was announced as the corporation’s new Director General in September. Davie stood as a councillor for the Conservative Party in 1993 and 1994, and was deputy chairman of the Hammersmith and Fulham Conservatives in the 1990s.



-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 16 January 2021 at 7:56am
Today's new story on the Brexit effect concerns the effect on expatriates and 'swallows'. 

In the past, with free movement within the EU, it was easy for Brits to move to Spain (say) in retirement, to enjoy cheaper property prices and warmer weather. The 'swallows' would not live there all year, but go to a property for the winter, to enjoy the warmth and save on heating bills. All of this is now seriously compromised under Brexit.

I should point out that, although these people aren't poor, most are by no stretch 'rich' either - many have just been careful with what funds they have.

This is the report I'd like you to consider:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55617849" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55617849

Some quotes: 

Travel to Spain is more complicated now that the new EU-UK trade agreement has come into force. Since 1 January, the UK has been considered as a "third country" to the EU - outside the club. Any newcomers will have to follow a new system.

For any UK citizens arriving now, here are some of the differences.

For tourists, including people who have second homes in the country but haven't taken residency, you can no longer come and go as you please. You can spend up to three months out of every six here.

To be able to live in Spain now, you will need to show proof that you're earning, either through having a contract with a Spanish company, or by proving that you have at least £2,000 (€2,223; $2,705) a month coming into your account.

For a family, it will be much more. You will need to show that you have an extra £500 a month for each member of the family. For example, a family of four will need to prove they earn a yearly salary of at least £42,000.

British driving licences will also need to be changed to Spanish ones.

The last few weeks have seen a frenetic period of adjustment, and change, with people leaving Spain for good, and others replacing them before the rules for residency changed.

"Our removal companies have never been busier. Every removal company across this coast has told our team they've never seen a situation like this," says Michel Euesden from Rochdale. She runs the Euro Weekly newspaper in Fuengirola, a paper that provides news for Brits living here.

"It's the first time in 25 years since we started the paper here that we've seen removal companies fully booked going out and coming back in.

"They are taking the elderly and people who haven't had jobs for a while, because of the Covid situation, back to the UK, and then they're bringing back younger generations with disposable income, and often with an online marketing presence, out here. So the dynamics have completely changed."...


Meanwhile, Eric Anderson is stuck in the UK. The 71-year-old former shipyard worker from Newcastle is one of thousands of so called "swallows" - people with second homes in Spain who spend winter in the sun and return to Britain in the summer.

Spanish Covid rules preventing non-essential travel mean that Eric can't fly out at the moment. When he can, his time will be limited under the new post-Brexit system.

"I feel badly let down. We paid a mortgage for 20 years to have a holiday home and a retirement bolt-hole for the winter. We're limited to just 90 days now, and that's not just for Spain, but anywhere we go in Europe on holiday. Say we cross from Newcastle to the Netherlands, that's counted.

"So you're already being restricted by time to come back into the UK. There's a lot of average working guys that have done exactly what I've done and it's just not going to be possible now. I don't think anyone expected the rug to be pulled from under them so quickly."

Tracy Turnero Sheehan has made her home in the hillside town of Marchena, famous for Flamenco music and olive growing.

She left Hereford 16 years ago, and is now a Spanish resident, running an English language school by Marchena's town square. She tells me over a socially distanced coffee that her life has become much more complicated as a consequence of the new rules.

"My husband Enrique is Spanish, my son Santiago is Spanish and British. If we ever wanted to move back to the UK as a family, say in five years, then I could move back, I imagine Santi could get a British passport.

"But Enrique would need to fit in with the minimum income or the points-based system. Which makes it almost impossible to live in the UK again. Honestly, I feel kind of forgotten about."

There is help for those considered more vulnerable who are seeking residency.

Three charities - Age in Spain, Babelia and the International Organisation for Migration - are offering legal help, or assistance in arranging appointments, for people struggling with the Spanish language, those in remote areas, and people with disabilities.


In total, there are now more than 360,000 British residents registered in Spain, according to official Spanish figures. Back in the offices of Euro Weekly, Michel Euesden predicts there will be a dramatic change to the population dynamic.

"We have traditionally been a community here of expats who are on average 50-plus. Last year it changed, and the average age was 45. If you come over in 12 months, it'll be more like an average age of 35.

"If you're 70 or 80 years old and you don't understand this new system, the new paperwork, the driving licences needing to be switched over, say for example they get ill - what are they going to do? I think a lot of people will go back to the country where they speak the language. You no longer have the best of both worlds, and people can't rely on speaking only English to get by.

"They will be replaced by a younger set of people who can afford to be here."

The stormy weather has finally passed. So too the era of easy travel to Spain. Estate agents tell me that British people used to be the biggest buyers of property on this coast. Not any more.

The Brexit effect has already begun to change the population here, and reshape the future plans of many Brits who want to live abroad.




So - it seems clear that older people will return to the UK, putting extra stress on the NHS and Social Services - and younger taxpayers are replacing them. It's too soon to say what the numbers will be like, but the trend is hardly a positive one for anyone -IMO. (That bit is an OPINION, not a FACT. Time will tell.)



-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 16 January 2021 at 8:23am
Small check is that the EU have agreed that having a British driving license will remain valid.

I’ve lots of so called ‘ swallow ‘ friends. It’s a bud crash for most of them. Although what happening in Gibraltar could be an interesting outcome. Let’s be clear, Spain is going to take a heck of a hit here too.


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 16 January 2021 at 8:25am
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Today's new story on the Brexit effect concerns the effect on expatriates and 'swallows'. 

In the past, with free movement within the EU, it was easy for Brits to move to Spain (say) in retirement, to enjoy cheaper property prices and warmer weather. The 'swallows' would not live there all year, but go to a property for the winter, to enjoy the warmth and save on heating bills. All of this is now seriously compromised under Brexit.

I should point out that, although these people aren't poor, most are by no stretch 'rich' either - many have just been careful with what funds they have.

This is the report I'd like you to consider:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55617849" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55617849

Some quotes: 

Travel to Spain is more complicated now that the new EU-UK trade agreement has come into force. Since 1 January, the UK has been considered as a "third country" to the EU - outside the club. Any newcomers will have to follow a new system.

For any UK citizens arriving now, here are some of the differences.

For tourists, including people who have second homes in the country but haven't taken residency, you can no longer come and go as you please. You can spend up to three months out of every six here.

To be able to live in Spain now, you will need to show proof that you're earning, either through having a contract with a Spanish company, or by proving that you have at least £2,000 (€2,223; $2,705) a month coming into your account.

For a family, it will be much more. You will need to show that you have an extra £500 a month for each member of the family. For example, a family of four will need to prove they earn a yearly salary of at least £42,000.

British driving licences will also need to be changed to Spanish ones.

The last few weeks have seen a frenetic period of adjustment, and change, with people leaving Spain for good, and others replacing them before the rules for residency changed.

"Our removal companies have never been busier. Every removal company across this coast has told our team they've never seen a situation like this," says Michel Euesden from Rochdale. She runs the Euro Weekly newspaper in Fuengirola, a paper that provides news for Brits living here.

"It's the first time in 25 years since we started the paper here that we've seen removal companies fully booked going out and coming back in.

"They are taking the elderly and people who haven't had jobs for a while, because of the Covid situation, back to the UK, and then they're bringing back younger generations with disposable income, and often with an online marketing presence, out here. So the dynamics have completely changed."...


Meanwhile, Eric Anderson is stuck in the UK. The 71-year-old former shipyard worker from Newcastle is one of thousands of so called "swallows" - people with second homes in Spain who spend winter in the sun and return to Britain in the summer.

Spanish Covid rules preventing non-essential travel mean that Eric can't fly out at the moment. When he can, his time will be limited under the new post-Brexit system.

"I feel badly let down. We paid a mortgage for 20 years to have a holiday home and a retirement bolt-hole for the winter. We're limited to just 90 days now, and that's not just for Spain, but anywhere we go in Europe on holiday. Say we cross from Newcastle to the Netherlands, that's counted.

"So you're already being restricted by time to come back into the UK. There's a lot of average working guys that have done exactly what I've done and it's just not going to be possible now. I don't think anyone expected the rug to be pulled from under them so quickly."

Tracy Turnero Sheehan has made her home in the hillside town of Marchena, famous for Flamenco music and olive growing.

She left Hereford 16 years ago, and is now a Spanish resident, running an English language school by Marchena's town square. She tells me over a socially distanced coffee that her life has become much more complicated as a consequence of the new rules.

"My husband Enrique is Spanish, my son Santiago is Spanish and British. If we ever wanted to move back to the UK as a family, say in five years, then I could move back, I imagine Santi could get a British passport.

"But Enrique would need to fit in with the minimum income or the points-based system. Which makes it almost impossible to live in the UK again. Honestly, I feel kind of forgotten about."

There is help for those considered more vulnerable who are seeking residency.

Three charities - Age in Spain, Babelia and the International Organisation for Migration - are offering legal help, or assistance in arranging appointments, for people struggling with the Spanish language, those in remote areas, and people with disabilities.


In total, there are now more than 360,000 British residents registered in Spain, according to official Spanish figures. Back in the offices of Euro Weekly, Michel Euesden predicts there will be a dramatic change to the population dynamic.

"We have traditionally been a community here of expats who are on average 50-plus. Last year it changed, and the average age was 45. If you come over in 12 months, it'll be more like an average age of 35.

"If you're 70 or 80 years old and you don't understand this new system, the new paperwork, the driving licences needing to be switched over, say for example they get ill - what are they going to do? I think a lot of people will go back to the country where they speak the language. You no longer have the best of both worlds, and people can't rely on speaking only English to get by.

"They will be replaced by a younger set of people who can afford to be here."

The stormy weather has finally passed. So too the era of easy travel to Spain. Estate agents tell me that British people used to be the biggest buyers of property on this coast. Not any more.

The Brexit effect has already begun to change the population here, and reshape the future plans of many Brits who want to live abroad.




So - it seems clear that older people will return to the UK, putting extra stress on the NHS and Social Services - and younger taxpayers are replacing them. It's too soon to say what the numbers will be like, but the trend is hardly a positive one for anyone -IMO. (That bit is an OPINION, not a FACT. Time will tell.)


So you expect me to feel sorry for someone who can now only spend 3 months in every 6 abroad - here is a fact you seem to crave - I don't. 


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 16 January 2021 at 8:39am
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

I see that 'supporters of Brexit' have so far been unable to post any good news stories relating to the event.

Not even the £350 million a week for the NHS? No?

So, in the absence of any good news from Brexiters, I'll help them out with one or two: here's the first - 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55499773" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55499773

Boris Johnson's dad has applied for French citizenship. The fewer Johnsons in the UK, the better - aas far as I'm concerned.

It will be even better news when Boris follows suit.
that's because a lot of leave supporters found from farage that it was a lie,it was the only reason i voted leave and looking at the nhs it was a damn good reason so it's a bit churlish to bring that up as you and i know that it is not relevant,now.

You make an excellent point Nigel. I defy anyone, from any walk of life whether PHD's or not, to try to give a balanced assessment of the effects of Brexit on the UK economy over the next 5-10 years. The covid pandemic has completely overtaken events and made any comparisons seem pretty frivolous. Economies around the World will be feeling the negative effects for decades.


Earlier, you wrote something sensible about a batsman "looking in the book" to see the umpire's decision.

That is what I am doing now - looking in the 'Brexit book' to see the results - no more, no less.

I am still waiting for any Brexiters to post on here a single benefit which they can point to since 1 January 2021.

You voted for it - you now have to own it.

It's true that the COVID disaster will muddy the waters, but I shall try to stick to things which have only happened because of Brexit - such as the vastly increased amount of paperwork for food exporters - and not just fishermen, but meat exporters too:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55680315" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55680315

Some quotes from this BBC report (BTW - the BBC is run by Conservatives these days):

UK meat exporters have claimed post-Brexit customs systems are "not fit for purpose", with goods delayed for hours, sometimes days, at the border.

The British Meat Processor Association said even experienced exporters were struggling with the system.

It said meat exports to the EU were 25% of normal levels for this time of year.

One large French meat importer told the BBC that he and his competitors were starting to look at alternative suppliers in Spain and Ireland.


Nick Allen, chief executive of the British Meat Processor Association, said: "Fundamentally, this is not a system that was designed for a 24/7, just-in-time supply chain.

"The export health certification process was designed for moving containers of frozen meat around the world where you have a bit of leeway on time.

"No matter how much better we get at filling in the forms, it's really not fit for purpose. This is going back to the dark ages in terms of a process really, in this digital age."

He added "It's going to be a problem for quite a time until we move forward and hopefully get a better digital system in place and can make it work a bit better, but until then, we've got to put up with all this paperwork and lorries arriving in Ireland with box files full of paper."

Rizvan Khalid, a lamb exporter based in Shropshire, cannot afford to get the paperwork wrong.

His company, Euro Quality Lambs, exports 70% of its meat to the EU, including France, Germany, Belgium and Portugal. He says what was once a once well-oiled machine now has a spanner in it.

"What used to take us 15 minutes is now taking us three or four hours on average before we can get the paperwork completed for one particular load," he says.

"It's taking them [on the French side] up to six hours to go through the health certificates, to open up the lorry and check the goods.

"All of that is adding time and costs. It's now an extra day before our product gets into the markets of Paris."


Down at the international freight checkpoint in Ashford, near the entrance to the Eurotunnel, customs consultant Steve Cocks gave a downbeat assessment.

"The temporary border post lorry park is full, roads are being closed off and lorries are being sent back to the Covid testing site to hold them there," he said.

"Last week wasn't much to write home about as it was very quiet, but volumes are building and it's just going to get worse. Exports are grinding to a halt and that will affect imports, but if you are a haulier. you don't want to get a lorry stuck on this side of the Channel."

After decades of friction-free trade, there are bound to be teething problems. Indeed, the government predicted that there would be "significant additional disruption" as traders, officials and customers became accustomed to new procedures.

However, some things cannot "bed in" and will become permanent features. HMRC estimates the additional cost to UK business of bog-standard customs declarations alone at £7bn.

When buyers and sellers want to trade, they will find a way, but significant additional cost and complexity is here to stay.


As I said at the start - I'm posting FACTS here. People can make up their own minds, but please read the reports. Don't ignore them in a 'three wise monkeys' way, and pretend this stuff isn't happening - because it is.


Well Aber you are excelling yourself I have to say. I don't own Brexit I am part of the 52% who voted for it. Nothing you have posted so far - although they may well be factual - makes me reconsider my decision for one millisecond. Most, if not all your points so far,  have concentrated on additional paperwork requirements. This did not get thrust on UK traders on 01/01/2021. I and all other exporters were told at least 12 months ago to prepare for the new arrangements. Copious amounts of information was available. 

It remains as of today that by far the largest disruption to border crossing came about due to the covid crisis which had absolutely nothing to do with Brexit. You clearly are on a mission and that is your right to post on here. However I can only say from my point of view you are coming across as a very bad loser who has lost touch with the reality of where we in the UK currently stand as a result of the covid pandemic. As for me or any Brexit supporter posting daily evidence of Brexit success I wouldn't hold my breath, certainly from my point of view. I have far more important issues to deal with on a daily basis which include keeping my family safe & funded during this crisis as well as looking out for my elderly neighbours. 


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 16 January 2021 at 9:29am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

I see that 'supporters of Brexit' have so far been unable to post any good news stories relating to the event.

Not even the £350 million a week for the NHS? No?

So, in the absence of any good news from Brexiters, I'll help them out with one or two: here's the first - 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55499773" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55499773

Boris Johnson's dad has applied for French citizenship. The fewer Johnsons in the UK, the better - aas far as I'm concerned.

It will be even better news when Boris follows suit.
that's because a lot of leave supporters found from farage that it was a lie,it was the only reason i voted leave and looking at the nhs it was a damn good reason so it's a bit churlish to bring that up as you and i know that it is not relevant,now.

You make an excellent point Nigel. I defy anyone, from any walk of life whether PHD's or not, to try to give a balanced assessment of the effects of Brexit on the UK economy over the next 5-10 years. The covid pandemic has completely overtaken events and made any comparisons seem pretty frivolous. Economies around the World will be feeling the negative effects for decades.


Earlier, you wrote something sensible about a batsman "looking in the book" to see the umpire's decision.

That is what I am doing now - looking in the 'Brexit book' to see the results - no more, no less.

I am still waiting for any Brexiters to post on here a single benefit which they can point to since 1 January 2021.

You voted for it - you now have to own it.

It's true that the COVID disaster will muddy the waters, but I shall try to stick to things which have only happened because of Brexit - such as the vastly increased amount of paperwork for food exporters - and not just fishermen, but meat exporters too:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55680315" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55680315

Some quotes from this BBC report (BTW - the BBC is run by Conservatives these days):

UK meat exporters have claimed post-Brexit customs systems are "not fit for purpose", with goods delayed for hours, sometimes days, at the border.

The British Meat Processor Association said even experienced exporters were struggling with the system.

It said meat exports to the EU were 25% of normal levels for this time of year.

One large French meat importer told the BBC that he and his competitors were starting to look at alternative suppliers in Spain and Ireland.


Nick Allen, chief executive of the British Meat Processor Association, said: "Fundamentally, this is not a system that was designed for a 24/7, just-in-time supply chain.

"The export health certification process was designed for moving containers of frozen meat around the world where you have a bit of leeway on time.

"No matter how much better we get at filling in the forms, it's really not fit for purpose. This is going back to the dark ages in terms of a process really, in this digital age."

He added "It's going to be a problem for quite a time until we move forward and hopefully get a better digital system in place and can make it work a bit better, but until then, we've got to put up with all this paperwork and lorries arriving in Ireland with box files full of paper."

Rizvan Khalid, a lamb exporter based in Shropshire, cannot afford to get the paperwork wrong.

His company, Euro Quality Lambs, exports 70% of its meat to the EU, including France, Germany, Belgium and Portugal. He says what was once a once well-oiled machine now has a spanner in it.

"What used to take us 15 minutes is now taking us three or four hours on average before we can get the paperwork completed for one particular load," he says.

"It's taking them [on the French side] up to six hours to go through the health certificates, to open up the lorry and check the goods.

"All of that is adding time and costs. It's now an extra day before our product gets into the markets of Paris."


Down at the international freight checkpoint in Ashford, near the entrance to the Eurotunnel, customs consultant Steve Cocks gave a downbeat assessment.

"The temporary border post lorry park is full, roads are being closed off and lorries are being sent back to the Covid testing site to hold them there," he said.

"Last week wasn't much to write home about as it was very quiet, but volumes are building and it's just going to get worse. Exports are grinding to a halt and that will affect imports, but if you are a haulier. you don't want to get a lorry stuck on this side of the Channel."

After decades of friction-free trade, there are bound to be teething problems. Indeed, the government predicted that there would be "significant additional disruption" as traders, officials and customers became accustomed to new procedures.

However, some things cannot "bed in" and will become permanent features. HMRC estimates the additional cost to UK business of bog-standard customs declarations alone at £7bn.

When buyers and sellers want to trade, they will find a way, but significant additional cost and complexity is here to stay.


As I said at the start - I'm posting FACTS here. People can make up their own minds, but please read the reports. Don't ignore them in a 'three wise monkeys' way, and pretend this stuff isn't happening - because it is.


Well Aber you are excelling yourself I have to say. I don't own Brexit I am part of the 52% who voted for it. Nothing you have posted so far - although they may well be factual - makes me reconsider my decision for one millisecond. Most, if not all your points so far,  have concentrated on additional paperwork requirements. This did not get thrust on UK traders on 01/01/2021. I and all other exporters were told at least 12 months ago to prepare for the new arrangements. Copious amounts of information was available. 


You say that as if it was a small thing...

Let's just wind back a bit, shall we?

Shellfish exports

On the Menai Strait, James Wilson of Deepdock Ltd has stopped sending live mussels to the Netherlands until he sees how the new trading relationship between the UK and the EU works out in practice.

"We'll just have to see how much the bureaucracy costs and assess the viability of the trade going forward," he said.

The trader said only one document had to be filled in in the past.

"A colleague sent a load out last week and he had to send 41 bits of paper with his load," he said.

Every bag of mussels has to have its own documentation.


Scottish fish and shellfish


I think that I may only have posed a link to this issue before - here is a quote, and a link to the full report:


Scottish fishermen have resorted to sailing to Denmark to land their catch as Brexit red tape continues to delay exports, an industry body has said.

The Scottish Fishermen's Federation, which campaigned to leave the EU, also said the Brexit trade deal was the worst of both worlds for the industry.

Many fishermen "now fear for their future", it said.

The UK government said the deal would "bring immediate gains to our fishermen and women across the whole UK".

Late last year, the Scottish Fishermen's Federation (SFF) said it was "deeply aggrieved" by the Brexit deal.

Fishing firms have also  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55470776" rel="nofollow - warned of impending bankruptcy  as delays continue at ports following the introduction of post-Brexit regulations.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55669168" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55669168


(Note: these people campaigned FOR Brexit.


Either they were idiots - or they were lied to. Which do you think it is?)


Meat exports


Nick Allen, chief executive of the British Meat Processor Association, said: "Fundamentally, this is not a system that was designed for a 24/7, just-in-time supply chain.

"The export health certification process was designed for moving containers of frozen meat around the world where you have a bit of leeway on time.

"No matter how much better we get at filling in the forms, it's really not fit for purpose. This is going back to the dark ages in terms of a process really, in this digital age."...

After decades of friction-free trade, there are bound to be teething problems. Indeed, the government predicted that there would be "significant additional disruption" as traders, officials and customers became accustomed to new procedures.

However, some things cannot "bed in" and will become permanent features. HMRC estimates the additional cost to UK business of bog-standard customs declarations alone at £7bn.



Now, I don't know about you, but none of this sounds trivial to me... 


Don't forget what I said at the start - I am inviting Brexiters to post good news stories in here. It's not my job to do that.


Please don't bother to make remarks based on nothing at all. Stick to the FACTS, man! That way, it'll be a lot clearer to all of us what the benefits and downsides are. You will see that I post links to all the stories I mention. I don't think you have posted any, yet - but I welcome them.


Boris said it was a 'cake and eat it deal', a day or two after it was signed. It surely can't be that hard to find the good news.



-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 16 January 2021 at 9:34am
For anyone thinking that all the U.K. expats living in the EU have plenty of dosh and can tu when they want, nothing could further further truth. Many sold up and left for cheaper living and better lifestyle. They’ve no hope of returning as house prices have taxed static in their new location, or dropped, hole U.K. prices continued to rise.

They will have to apply for the right to stay and citizenship of their location. Many feel very reluctant. To do so, however, those are the consequences for them.

Back on topic, are the supply issues in Northern Ireland a temporary blip, or here to stay with the unworkable deal? 


-------------
In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 16 January 2021 at 9:34am
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Small check is that the EU have agreed that having a British driving license will remain valid.

I’ve lots of so called ‘ swallow ‘ friends. It’s a bud crash for most of them. Although what happening in Gibraltar could be an interesting outcome. Let’s be clear, Spain is going to take a heck of a hit here too.

Very likely - and I'm sure the Spanish aren't happy about it.

Do you have a link to the driving license story? That will be a relief, to many, assuming it's confirmed - though it can't count as 'good news', as it'll simply retain the status quo.

(This comes a bit late for us, as we forked out for International Driving Permits about a year ago - but never got to use them, because of COVID.

Ah, well.)


-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 16 January 2021 at 9:41am
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

For anyone thinking that all the U.K. expats living in the EU have plenty of dosh and can tu when they want, nothing could further further truth. Many sold up and left for cheaper living and better lifestyle. They’ve no hope of returning as house prices have taxed static in their new location, or dropped, hole U.K. prices continued to rise.

They will have to apply for the right to stay and citizenship of their location. Many feel very reluctant. To do so, however, those are the consequences for them.

Back on topic, are the supply issues in Northern Ireland a temporary blip, or here to stay with the unworkable deal? 

A very good question, and of some interest to me - I spent 3 years there. Certainly not my area of expertise, so I turned to that well-known Marxist hotbed, the Financial Times, to see what they think.

This is their report with some quotes:

http://www.ft.com/content/8bdb2a68-8124-42d6-a477-d4ddf03000d8" rel="nofollow - https://www.ft.com/content/8bdb2a68-8124-42d6-a477-d4ddf03000d8

Please use the sharing tools found via the share button at the top or side of articles. Copying articles to share with others is a breach of https://www.ft.com" rel="nofollow - FT.com https://help.ft.com/help/legal-privacy/terms-conditions/" rel="nofollow - T&Cs and https://help.ft.com/help/legal-privacy/copyright/copyright-policy/" rel="nofollow - Copyright Policy . Email mailto:licensing@ft.com" rel="nofollow - licensing@ft.com to buy additional rights. Subscribers may share up to 10 or 20 articles per month using the gift article service. More information can be https://www.ft.com/tour" rel="nofollow - found here .
https://www.ft.com/content/8bdb2a68-8124-42d6-a477-d4ddf03000d8" rel="nofollow - https://www.ft.com/content/8bdb2a68-8124-42d6-a477-d4ddf03000d8

The UK’s largest supermarkets have warned the government of “significant disruption to food supplies” to Northern Ireland because of “unworkable” post-Brexit border arrangements. Many supermarkets in the region have been hit by rows of empty shelves because of the new border regime. But in a letter to Cabinet Office secretary Michael Gove, chief executives of companies including Sainsbury, Marks and Spencer and Tesco UK warned that shortages would worsen when a Brexit grace period, which has exempted retailers from some arduous red tape, ends on March 31.  

The supermarkets urged the government to take “a number of steps to work with us to ensure the long-term sustainability of the Northern Irish grocery market”. The retailers also called on the government to begin an “open discussion” with the EU to explain why implementing the Irish protocol was “unworkable” in the current timeframe, raising the prospect of difficult negotiations with Brussels just weeks after the deal was agreed. We cannot stress enough that we need time to find and implement that solution ... 


-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 16 January 2021 at 9:42am
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

I see that 'supporters of Brexit' have so far been unable to post any good news stories relating to the event.

Not even the £350 million a week for the NHS? No?

So, in the absence of any good news from Brexiters, I'll help them out with one or two: here's the first - 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55499773" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55499773

Boris Johnson's dad has applied for French citizenship. The fewer Johnsons in the UK, the better - aas far as I'm concerned.

It will be even better news when Boris follows suit.
that's because a lot of leave supporters found from farage that it was a lie,it was the only reason i voted leave and looking at the nhs it was a damn good reason so it's a bit churlish to bring that up as you and i know that it is not relevant,now.

You make an excellent point Nigel. I defy anyone, from any walk of life whether PHD's or not, to try to give a balanced assessment of the effects of Brexit on the UK economy over the next 5-10 years. The covid pandemic has completely overtaken events and made any comparisons seem pretty frivolous. Economies around the World will be feeling the negative effects for decades.


Earlier, you wrote something sensible about a batsman "looking in the book" to see the umpire's decision.

That is what I am doing now - looking in the 'Brexit book' to see the results - no more, no less.

I am still waiting for any Brexiters to post on here a single benefit which they can point to since 1 January 2021.

You voted for it - you now have to own it.

It's true that the COVID disaster will muddy the waters, but I shall try to stick to things which have only happened because of Brexit - such as the vastly increased amount of paperwork for food exporters - and not just fishermen, but meat exporters too:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55680315" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55680315

Some quotes from this BBC report (BTW - the BBC is run by Conservatives these days):

UK meat exporters have claimed post-Brexit customs systems are "not fit for purpose", with goods delayed for hours, sometimes days, at the border.

The British Meat Processor Association said even experienced exporters were struggling with the system.

It said meat exports to the EU were 25% of normal levels for this time of year.

One large French meat importer told the BBC that he and his competitors were starting to look at alternative suppliers in Spain and Ireland.


Nick Allen, chief executive of the British Meat Processor Association, said: "Fundamentally, this is not a system that was designed for a 24/7, just-in-time supply chain.

"The export health certification process was designed for moving containers of frozen meat around the world where you have a bit of leeway on time.

"No matter how much better we get at filling in the forms, it's really not fit for purpose. This is going back to the dark ages in terms of a process really, in this digital age."

He added "It's going to be a problem for quite a time until we move forward and hopefully get a better digital system in place and can make it work a bit better, but until then, we've got to put up with all this paperwork and lorries arriving in Ireland with box files full of paper."

Rizvan Khalid, a lamb exporter based in Shropshire, cannot afford to get the paperwork wrong.

His company, Euro Quality Lambs, exports 70% of its meat to the EU, including France, Germany, Belgium and Portugal. He says what was once a once well-oiled machine now has a spanner in it.

"What used to take us 15 minutes is now taking us three or four hours on average before we can get the paperwork completed for one particular load," he says.

"It's taking them [on the French side] up to six hours to go through the health certificates, to open up the lorry and check the goods.

"All of that is adding time and costs. It's now an extra day before our product gets into the markets of Paris."


Down at the international freight checkpoint in Ashford, near the entrance to the Eurotunnel, customs consultant Steve Cocks gave a downbeat assessment.

"The temporary border post lorry park is full, roads are being closed off and lorries are being sent back to the Covid testing site to hold them there," he said.

"Last week wasn't much to write home about as it was very quiet, but volumes are building and it's just going to get worse. Exports are grinding to a halt and that will affect imports, but if you are a haulier. you don't want to get a lorry stuck on this side of the Channel."

After decades of friction-free trade, there are bound to be teething problems. Indeed, the government predicted that there would be "significant additional disruption" as traders, officials and customers became accustomed to new procedures.

However, some things cannot "bed in" and will become permanent features. HMRC estimates the additional cost to UK business of bog-standard customs declarations alone at £7bn.

When buyers and sellers want to trade, they will find a way, but significant additional cost and complexity is here to stay.


As I said at the start - I'm posting FACTS here. People can make up their own minds, but please read the reports. Don't ignore them in a 'three wise monkeys' way, and pretend this stuff isn't happening - because it is.


Well Aber you are excelling yourself I have to say. I don't own Brexit I am part of the 52% who voted for it. Nothing you have posted so far - although they may well be factual - makes me reconsider my decision for one millisecond. Most, if not all your points so far,  have concentrated on additional paperwork requirements. This did not get thrust on UK traders on 01/01/2021. I and all other exporters were told at least 12 months ago to prepare for the new arrangements. Copious amounts of information was available. 


You say that as if it was a small thing...

Let's just wind back a bit, shall we?

Shellfish exports

On the Menai Strait, James Wilson of Deepdock Ltd has stopped sending live mussels to the Netherlands until he sees how the new trading relationship between the UK and the EU works out in practice.

"We'll just have to see how much the bureaucracy costs and assess the viability of the trade going forward," he said.

The trader said only one document had to be filled in in the past.

"A colleague sent a load out last week and he had to send 41 bits of paper with his load," he said.

Every bag of mussels has to have its own documentation.


Scottish fish and shellfish


I think that I may only have posed a link to this issue before - here is a quote, and a link to the full report:


Scottish fishermen have resorted to sailing to Denmark to land their catch as Brexit red tape continues to delay exports, an industry body has said.

The Scottish Fishermen's Federation, which campaigned to leave the EU, also said the Brexit trade deal was the worst of both worlds for the industry.

Many fishermen "now fear for their future", it said.

The UK government said the deal would "bring immediate gains to our fishermen and women across the whole UK".

Late last year, the Scottish Fishermen's Federation (SFF) said it was "deeply aggrieved" by the Brexit deal.

Fishing firms have also  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55470776" rel="nofollow - warned of impending bankruptcy  as delays continue at ports following the introduction of post-Brexit regulations.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55669168" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55669168


(Note: these people campaigned FOR Brexit.


Either they were idiots - or they were lied to. Which do you think it is?)


Meat exports


Nick Allen, chief executive of the British Meat Processor Association, said: "Fundamentally, this is not a system that was designed for a 24/7, just-in-time supply chain.

"The export health certification process was designed for moving containers of frozen meat around the world where you have a bit of leeway on time.

"No matter how much better we get at filling in the forms, it's really not fit for purpose. This is going back to the dark ages in terms of a process really, in this digital age."...

After decades of friction-free trade, there are bound to be teething problems. Indeed, the government predicted that there would be "significant additional disruption" as traders, officials and customers became accustomed to new procedures.

However, some things cannot "bed in" and will become permanent features. HMRC estimates the additional cost to UK business of bog-standard customs declarations alone at £7bn.



Now, I don't know about you, but none of this sounds trivial to me... 


Don't forget what I said at the start - I am inviting Brexiters to post good news stories in here. It's not my job to do that.


Please don't bother to make remarks based on nothing at all. Stick to the FACTS, man! That way, it'll be a lot clearer to all of us what the benefits and downsides are. You will see that I post links to all the stories I mention. I don't think you have posted any, yet - but I welcome them.


Boris said it was a 'cake and eat it deal', a day or two after it was signed. It surely can't be that hard to find the good news.


Aber please read my posts - I am not going to resort to your tactics which as I said seem quite desperate frankly. You keep repeating the same story - paperwork which the mussels exporter would have known long ago. It just didn't happen to him on 01/01/2021. In all honesty my small business now has 10's of extra pieces of paperwork needed but it is just a few bits of paperwork. If your business depends on filling it out then surely you just do it. I don't like filling in VAT returns every quarter but I do because I have to. 

You keep asking for good new stories here is one - to date we have saved around £43 million pounds in net contributions to the EU ( this fact is based on £10 billion per annum net savings). 


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 16 January 2021 at 9:43am
Sorry - those damn marxists don't make it easy to quote the odd paragraph from their pinko sheet!

-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 16 January 2021 at 9:47am



Aber please read my posts - I am not going to resort to your tactics which as I said seem quite desperate frankly. You keep repeating the same story - paperwork which the mussels exporter would have known long ago. It just didn't happen to him on 01/01/2021. In all honesty my small business now has 10's of extra pieces of paperwork needed but it is just a few bits of paperwork. If your business depends on filling it out then surely you just do it. I don't like filling in VAT returns every quarter but I do because I have to. 

You keep asking for good new stories here is one - to date we have saved around £43 million pounds in net contributions to the EU ( this fact is based on £10 billion per annum net savings). 
[/QUOTE]

I do read your posts - you don't seem to read mine, which are factual.

By all means post a link to this £10 billion net saving. Most of it will be wiped out at once by the £7 billion which will have to be spent on 'bog-standard customs declarations', but never mind.


-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 16 January 2021 at 9:53am
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

If you get your news from the BBC or the Guardian you must not expect anything positive about Brexit, Trump, Russia, China, Iran, Syria, Cuba, Venezuela whereas anyone that has anything negative to say about them will be welcomed and allowed evidence free speculation, which is then quietly forgotten if proved baseless (eg Trump's Russiagate nonsense which was taken seriously enough by his accusers and investigated in the Mueller Report which found zero evidence). BBC World service probably mentioned the exoneration quietly at 3 am but compared to the insinuations beforehand it was virtually inaudible.

I disagree with practically everything you say in this post, and would like to see you stand up your claims, but I don't want to get sidelined by other issues, as I don't have the time or the inclination.Please open a NEW THREAD if you want to discuss those issues in detail.

Just one correction which I feel HAS to be made here - concerning the BBC - since if you are going to make the claim that BBC comments on Brexit can't be trusted, or that the corporation is part of some sort of left-wing plot - I really can't allow that to stand. So, once again, I'll stick to the FACTS. If you find ANYTHING AT ALL in this report which is factually incorrect, please let me know and I'll edit it and post a correction.

Can't say fairer than that, can I?

You write: If you get your news from the BBC... you must not expect anything positive about Brexit...

I really don't know who you THINK runs the BBC nowadays, but in fact it has been in Tory hands for years - not surprising, given that they have been in power since 2010.

For example - the new Chair of the BBC, Richard Sharp, has donated £400,000 to the Tories in recent years. He has worked for the bank Goldman Sachs in a senior role for 23 years. He was Rishi Sunak's boss. He worked with Boris Johnson when he was Mayor of London. 

So what about the director general, then? He must be a dyed-in-the-wool leftie, no? Well... no. He - Tim Davie - is also a Conservative.

All of this information is out there, and Google will find it for you in an instant.

Some quotes on Sharp and Davie, from the Byline Times (you will find exactly the same FACTS reported on very many other news websites):

http://bylinetimes.com/2021/01/06/new-bbc-chairman-richard-sharp-donated-more-than-400000-to-conservative-party/" rel="nofollow - https://bylinetimes.com/2021/01/06/new-bbc-chairman-richard-sharp-donated-more-than-400000-to-conservative-party/


The newly-appointed Chairman of the BBC has donated more than £400,000 to the Conservative Party since 2001, Electoral Commission records show.

Earlier today, it was announced that former Goldman Sachs banker Richard Sharp is set to be appointed as the chairman of the BBC’s board of directors.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55560711" rel="nofollow - According to  the BBC’s Media Editor Amol Rajan, Sharp’s new role “will see him lead negotiations with the Government over the future of the licence fee”.

Sharp spent 23 years working for New York banking giant Goldman Sachs and reportedly oversaw the work of Rishi Sunak, during the now Chancellor’s early career in the finance industry. Latterly, Sharp was on the Bank of England’s Financial Policy Committee for six years until 2019.

It also seems that the new BBC Chairman has made a minor career in the field of Conservative Party fundraising – donating an estimated £416,189 to the party and its politicians since the turn of the century.

It appears as though Sharp’s latest donation to the Conservatives was in 2019, when he gave £2,500 to the Hereford and South Herefordshire branch of the party. From 2008 to 2010, he ploughed a whopping £211,590 into central party coffers.

Sharp has also since 2002 been a  https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/officers/-0HQx7_q64VG2KDzTg_GjoYhq20/appointments" rel="nofollow - director  at the Centre for Policy Studies – a right-wing think tank that has published  https://www.cps.org.uk/research/a-licence-to-kill-funding-the-bbc/" rel="nofollow - studies  calling for the abolition of the licence fee and  https://www.cps.org.uk/research/bias-at-the-beeb/" rel="nofollow - accusing  the BBC of having a left-wing bias.

His appointment follows that of Tim Davie, who was announced as the corporation’s new Director General in September. Davie stood as a councillor for the Conservative Party in 1993 and 1994, and was deputy chairman of the Hammersmith and Fulham Conservatives in the 1990s.


I am pretty sure my friend Dai has no need of my support here but how on earth does the fact that two senior people at the BBC being Tories prove that Dai's remarks are incorrect. Surely two die hard tories would indeed have a natural political antagonism to China, Russia, Cuba & Venezuela. As for their stance on Brexit I have no way of knowing whether they supported it or not so I fail to see your point again.


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 16 January 2021 at 10:01am
You read it here first folks - we're doomed. Its nothing to do with covid by the way its all down to Brexit which those sly tories allowed to happen with absolutely no warning. Never mind about the deaths worldwide approaching 2 million, hospitals in many countries approaching dangerous capacities, new variants providing threats of worse to come lets all really get concerned that a mussel exporter now has to fill in lots of paperwork & Dai Benidorm can only spend 3 months in every 6 sunning himself - what a catastrophe!!!!!!!!


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 16 January 2021 at 11:03am
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

Small check is that the EU have agreed that having a British driving license will remain valid.

I’ve lots of so called ‘ swallow ‘ friends. It’s a bud crash for most of them. Although what happening in Gibraltar could be an interesting outcome. Let’s be clear, Spain is going to take a heck of a hit here too.


Very likely - and I'm sure the Spanish aren't happy about it.

Do you have a link to the driving license story? That will be a relief, to many, assuming it's confirmed - though it can't count as 'good news', as it'll simply retain the status quo.

(This comes a bit late for us, as we forked out for International Driving Permits about a year ago - but never got to use them, because of COVID.

Ah, well.)



I can't find a link but it was put out by Grant Shapps on his Twitter account on 31 December..

It says ( quote )

'Welcome news for UK Drivers. We've now secured agreements with all 27 EU member countries to recognize UK driving licenses WITHOUT the need for an International Drivers permit. From tomorrow UK drivers can continue to drive in the EU without an IDP ( Covid restriction dependent)'.





Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 16 January 2021 at 11:08am
I'd say, as someone directly and indirectly impacted by the protracted trade negotiations, the outcome of that being only really concluded just before year end, that planning for the outcome could only really begin in earnest just after the agreement had been hashed out.

The final deal was a hybrid of what all parties expected.

As for people who elected to sell up and live abroad, most are in fact not cuckoos actually. They live in Europe and occasionally visit the UK.
Most are retired are not in full time employment.


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 16 January 2021 at 11:39am
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

I'd say, as someone directly and indirectly impacted by the protracted trade negotiations, the outcome of that being only really concluded just before year end, that planning for the outcome could only really begin in earnest just after the agreement had been hashed out.

The final deal was a hybrid of what all parties expected.

As for people who elected to sell up and live abroad, most are in fact not cuckoos actually. They live in Europe and occasionally visit the UK.
Most are retired are not in full time employment.

Well Wil as someone who is directly impacted by the trade negotiation outcome I have known since March 2019 that changes were coming. Since early 2020 I was told to prepare for possible WTO regulations and the paperwork that involved & also to still allow for some additional documentation requirements should a deal be agreed so personally no surprises.

With regards to people who live permanently in Spain I have two sets of friends who are retired and fall into that category. They both knew changes were afoot a couple of years ago. The final deal didn't bring them any surprises. One couple have decided to stay permanently having applied for and been granted Spanish citizenship. The other are going to spend 6 months in Spain & 6 in Britain. The 6 months in Britain costs of renting etc are being 85% met by the rental income of their property in Spain. 


Posted By: Dai Guevara
Date Posted: 16 January 2021 at 12:54pm
Aberfan - why do you think that I believe (from my last post)that the BBC is a left-wing organisation. Far from it. What I was saying was that there are certain topics where the BBC is totally one-sided and being almost 100% negative on Brexit is one of them. Even if it finds some advantage that Brexit bestows and can't avoid including in a broadcast, it will hardly be positive and will usually throw in some negative aspect to lessen the impact on the undecided.


Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 16 January 2021 at 4:09pm
Don’t know the South Wales wine business in question. Hope someone on here does.

I imagine there will be plenty of other stories like this.

http://https://twitter.com/daniellambert29/status/1350367078662987777?s=21" rel="nofollow - http://https://twitter.com/daniellambert29/status/1350367078662987777?s=21


-------------
In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 22 January 2021 at 4:43am
Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

Aberfan - why do you think that I believe (from my last post)that the BBC is a left-wing organisation. Far from it. What I was saying was that there are certain topics where the BBC is totally one-sided and being almost 100% negative on Brexit is one of them. Even if it finds some advantage that Brexit bestows and can't avoid including in a broadcast, it will hardly be positive and will usually throw in some negative aspect to lessen the impact on the undecided.

Find some good news stories then, and post the links.

If Brexit was such a good idea, surely those papers that supported it - most of them - Mail, Times, Telegraph, Sun etc. will be printing absolute reams of good news Brexit stories.

Post the links.

Let people make up their own minds, on the balance of the facts.



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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 22 January 2021 at 4:56am
So then - some more Brexit stories:

Hauliers complain about paperwork delays

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55659006" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55659006

"John Simkins, general manager of Transmec UK Ltd, felt so strongly that he wrote to his local MP about the problems.

This is the first week of the new year which is usually quiet, but the systems already cannot cope. We have 10 people on the team dealing with this, all of them are exhausted after a week.

"I have worked in the industry for 40 years and can remember the customs processes before we joined the common market, but the current situation is worse."

"Before taking goods to Milan was similar to taking goods to Manchester, the only difference was the distance. Now our lorries have to stop at customs on their way out and again when they reach Italy. It all adds time.

"Some of the problems we've seen will be teething problems and we are all learning every day, but ultimately there's now an enormous layer of bureaucracy on both sides of the channel that wasn't there before and that won't go away."





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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 22 January 2021 at 5:01am
It's not only more difficult to export goods - importing has also become much more complicated, and expensive:

Financial guarantees required of importers - many quit

A British freight company director with more than 20 years’ experience has told how EU hauliers and transport companies are turning their backs on UK business because they are being asked to provide tens of thousands of pounds in guarantees to cover VAT or potential tariffs on arrival in Britain.

The financial guarantee requirement did not exist before  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/eu-referendum" rel="nofollow - Brexit  and EU transport companies who previously provided a shipping service for small and medium-sized firms have decided they do not want the extra financial burden, according to Colin Jeffries, who runs Key Cargo International in Manchester.

“We’ve got people that are trying to bring textiles in from Italy but we are being told there is no haulage availability on that. Nobody’s willing to touch anything because of these guarantees. In Poland, we’re trying to get masks in for PPE in the workplace and we can’t get anyone to bring them over.”

Jeffries, who has been in the freight forwarding business for 24 years, said his business nearly came to a standstill last week because of the sudden trade barriers erected on 1 January.

He said it was “absolute carnage out there” trying to get EU hauliers to come to Britain, because they underestimated the gravity of the financial guarantees, known as T1s, that now apply to goods being exported to the UK.

A truck with a £200,000 cargo would need cash or a T1 financial guarantee document for £40,000 in VAT alone, he said, a significant burden for transport companies with multiple trucks going to the UK....

...data showed that an increasing number of freight groups rejected contracts to move goods from France to Britain in the second week of January.

Transporeon, a German software company that works with 100,000 logistics service providers, said freight forwarders had rejected jobs to move goods from Germany, Italy and Poland into Britain.

In the second week of January the rejection rate for transport to the UK was up 168% on the third quarter of 2020 and had doubled in the first calendar week of the year.

Jeffries said one of the problems was how complicated exporting to the UK had become.

While goods could sail through British ports before Brexit, now EU suppliers, like the UK exporters, had to provide a panoply of paperwork before export in addition to the T1 financial guarantee.

Apart from the customs declaration and the T1 financial guarantee they have to provide a Rex (registered exporter system) document to certify the origin of the product, which will determine whether tariffs will apply on entry to the UK or whether they are subject to preferential treatment.

Jeffries also hit out at the government for its repeated refrain to businesses instructing them to go to freight forwarders or customs agents to prepare them for Brexit.

“They haven’t issued freight forwarders with a magic book,” he said. “A lot of people think we have inside knowledge because the government says go to a freight forwarder or customs agent. But we haven’t been given any insight. We are researching this like everyone else and like everyone you can only gain access to some systems from 1 January so you had no time to test systems until it went live.”



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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 22 January 2021 at 5:10am
Exporting has become very difficult for small companies (even those not exporting perishables such as fish or meat).

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/17/shock-brexit-charges-are-hurting-us-say-small-british-businesses" rel="nofollow - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/17/shock-brexit-charges-are-hurting-us-say-small-british-businesses

Government ministers describe the post-Brexit headaches that British exporters have suffered since 1 January as  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/14/mps-fishing-areas-criticise-government-brexit-red-tape" rel="nofollow - mere “teething problems” . But Alex Paul, who jointly runs a successful family business that features in the Department for International Trade’s list of national “export champions”, disagrees. And he wants the real story to be told....

Paul is a director of Leon Paul, based in Hendon, north London, which employs 50 people. It is a niche business, which has been in his family since it was set up in 1921. It designs and manufactures equipment for the Olympic sport of sword fencing. But in many ways it is typical of tens of thousands of small companies that sold some of their goods at home and some abroad, and enjoyed seamless access to the border-free EU market for decades. “Previously the business of sending orders direct to customers in Europe was very straightforward,” he says.

“You put something in a box, sent it off with a courier and it got to the customer in a day or two days without any friction, just like sending something within this country.”

Almost a third of Leon Paul’s £7m annual turnover is to customers in EU countries. On average each order to the EU has been worth about £200. But the European export side of the business is now looking increasingly unsustainable.

“We did everything we could to prepare for Brexit and are part of the DTI’s export champion community,” says Paul. But since 1 January, his firm – like other UK exporters – has been hit by three new charges. And four days ago the firm discovered another one  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/07/customers-europe-hit-by-post-brexit-charges-buying-from-uk" rel="nofollow - that his customers in the EU  will have to pay on receiving the goods.

“As far as I can see, currently, companies like ours in the UK are not going to be able to do ‘end sales’ to customers in the EU any more. Particularly, small orders for anything under £100 will be completely impossible,” says Paul.

The new export levies, which he says will amount to £160,000 a year for Leon Paul, are first, a “Brexit charge”, as the couriers are calling it, an export fee of £4.50 for every parcel shipped to the EU to cover costs of extra administration and form filling that couriers must carry out.

Second, there is a “deferment account fee” of £5 per parcel that covers couriers’ costs of pre-paying import charges in the destination country; and third, a “disbursement charge” which is set at different levels in each EU country with a minimum of about €14 per parcel, or calculated as a percentage of the value of the goods, whichever is the higher, plus VAT in the destination country. This covers the costs of the tax authority in the recipient country inspecting and processing the parcels.

For the past fortnight Paul has been trying to work out how to absorb the extra costs. But he is struggling to see an easy way.

Jobs lost will be lost here,” he says. “That is the reality. All of these fees will come straight off profit margins.

“We might save some of the increased costs of doing business in Europe by setting up a warehouse there – and thereby avoid paying charges on every consignment – but we would have to make redundancies in our warehouse here and reduce the size of the business footprint in the UK. We are of course a relatively small business but all exporters will be hit with similar charges.”




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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 22 January 2021 at 6:03am
I have been VERY disappointed in the failure of Brexit supporters to post any good news stories linked to Brexit.

So much so, that I have decided to help them out - here's one:

Nissan says Brexit deal 'positive' and commits to UK

Japanese car maker Nissan has told the BBC its Sunderland plant is secure for the long term as a result of the trade deal reached between the UK and the EU.

It said it will move additional battery production close to the plant where it has 6,000 direct employees and supports nearly 70,000 jobs in the supply chain.

Currently, the batteries in its Leaf electric cars are imported from Japan.

Nissan would not confirm if this would mean additional jobs at Sunderland, which is the UK's largest car plant.

Manufacturing the more powerful batteries in the UK will ensure its cars comply with trade rules agreed with the EU requiring at least 55% of the car's value to be derived from either the UK or the EU to qualify for zero tariffs when exported to the EU.

Some 70% of the cars made in Sunderland are exported and the vast majority of them are sold in the EU.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55757930" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55757930


COMMENT (for once): The point in bold is an important one for manufacturers. Some (like Nissan) will find a work-around, but others will not.


In the light of this decision by Nissan, it makes the decision by INEOS to build its Grenadier car in France all the more disappointing - especially as the company had initially said that (some of?) it would be built in Bridgend. 


Prominent Monaco-based Brexiter Jim Ratcliffe, who owns INEOS and whose net worth is around £21 billion (!) therefore reneged on his initial promise to Wales. INEOS has claimed the deciision had nothing to do with Brexit, but the delay in securing a trade deal could well have influenced the decision, IMO:


"the move is seen as a snub to Wales after Ineos founder Sir Jim Ratcliffe, a prominent Brexiteer, had said the Grenadier would be assembled at a new factory in Bridgend, close to the old Ford plant, creating 200 jobs and up to 500 in the long term. A second factory in Portugal was to build the Grenadier’s chassis."


"Production in the European Union means Ineos will avoid 10% export tariffs when shipping vehicles to buyers on the continent, which will be added to any cars built in the UK in the event of a no-deal Brexit and defaulting to World Trade Organisation terms. The company will also avoid the same tariff on imports of components from Europe."


http://www.driving.co.uk/news/business/ineos-grenadier-4x4-built-france/" rel="nofollow - https://www.driving.co.uk/news/business/ineos-grenadier-4x4-built-france/


(Now, in the event - as we see from the Nissan story - the no-deal scenario didn't happen - but the delay in sorting out a deal could well have been a factor in this decision, I think.)


More on well-known non-UK taxpayer Ratcliffe, if you are interested:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Ratcliffe" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Ratcliffe



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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: Dic Penderyn
Date Posted: 22 January 2021 at 6:39am
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

I have been VERY disappointed in the failure of Brexit supporters to post any good news stories linked to Brexit.

So much so, that I have decided to help them out - here's one:

Nissan says Brexit deal 'positive' and commits to UK

Japanese car maker Nissan has told the BBC its Sunderland plant is secure for the long term as a result of the trade deal reached between the UK and the EU.

It said it will move additional battery production close to the plant where it has 6,000 direct employees and supports nearly 70,000 jobs in the supply chain.

Currently, the batteries in its Leaf electric cars are imported from Japan.

Nissan would not confirm if this would mean additional jobs at Sunderland, which is the UK's largest car plant.

Manufacturing the more powerful batteries in the UK will ensure its cars comply with trade rules agreed with the EU requiring at least 55% of the car's value to be derived from either the UK or the EU to qualify for zero tariffs when exported to the EU.

Some 70% of the cars made in Sunderland are exported and the vast majority of them are sold in the EU.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55757930" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55757930


COMMENT (for once): The point in bold is an important one for manufacturers. Some (like Nissan) will find a work-around, but others will not.


In the light of this decision by Nissan, it makes the decision by INEOS to build its Grenadier car in France all the more disappointing - especially as the company had initially said that (some of?) it would be built in Bridgend. 


Prominent Monaco-based Brexiter Jim Ratcliffe, who owns INEOS and whose net worth is around £21 billion (!) therefore reneged on his initial promise to Wales. INEOS has claimed the deciision had nothing to do with Brexit, but the delay in securing a trade deal could well have influenced the decision, IMO:


"the move is seen as a snub to Wales after Ineos founder Sir Jim Ratcliffe, a prominent Brexiteer, had said the Grenadier would be assembled at a new factory in Bridgend, close to the old Ford plant, creating 200 jobs and up to 500 in the long term. A second factory in Portugal was to build the Grenadier’s chassis."


"Production in the European Union means Ineos will avoid 10% export tariffs when shipping vehicles to buyers on the continent, which will be added to any cars built in the UK in the event of a no-deal Brexit and defaulting to World Trade Organisation terms. The company will also avoid the same tariff on imports of components from Europe."


http://www.driving.co.uk/news/business/ineos-grenadier-4x4-built-france/" rel="nofollow - https://www.driving.co.uk/news/business/ineos-grenadier-4x4-built-france/


(Now, in the event - as we see from the Nissan story - the no-deal scenario didn't happen - but the delay in sorting out a deal could well have been a factor in this decision, I think.)


More on well-known non-UK taxpayer Ratcliffe, if you are interested:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Ratcliffe" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Ratcliffe

The French granted Ineos a ready-made facility in Hambach-site of the former Mercedes plant.I think that was the biggest factor,but there's no doubting Ineos behaved pretty badly here.


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 23 January 2021 at 1:19pm
Today's bad news story:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/23/cheshire-cheesemaker-says-business-left-with-250000-brexit-hole" rel="nofollow - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/23/cheshire-cheesemaker-says-business-left-with-250000-brexit-hole

A commercial cheesemaker in Cheshire has been left with a £250,000  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/eu-referendum" rel="nofollow - Brexit  hole in his business as a direct result of the UK’s departure from the EU on 1 January.

Simon Spurrell said he has lost 20% of his  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/07/customers-europe-hit-by-post-brexit-charges-buying-from-uk" rel="nofollow - sales  overnight after discovering he needed to provide a £180 health certificate on retail orders to consumers in the EU, including those buying personal gift packs of his award-winning wax-wrapped cheese worth £25 or £30.

He says he had hoped to take part in the “sunny uplands” promised by the government post-Brexit but has instead seen the viability of his online retail come to a “dead stop”.

“Our business had high hopes of continued growth in the EU market, after seeing the avoidance of the no-deal and announcement of a free trade deal.

“What has only become clear in the last week is that our successful B2C [business to consumer] online sales to EU consumers is now impossible to operate,” he said.

To save his business he will now have to switch a £1m investment he was planning to make in a new distribution centre in Macclesfield to the EU, with the loss of 20 jobs and tax revenue to the UK.

“It is a real shame because that means I’m now going to invest in France, provide French employment, and then contribute to the EU tax system, which was pretty much going against the whole reason that we were meant to be leaving.”



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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 23 January 2021 at 1:30pm
And, as a balance, a 'good news' story of sorts. It's clear the UK has acted much faster in ordering and delivering the various vaccines than EU countries... though, of course, only the second vaccine was developed in the UK (Johnson and the rest attempted to make out that 'approval' amounted in some way to 'creation' of the first approved vaccine, which was developed by Turkish immigrants in Germany and manufactured by American/multinational company Pfizer).

So - the UK were able to act faster, probably because we were outside the EU. (Less good news - the UK leads the world in deaths per 100k inhabitants).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55771223" rel="nofollow -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55771223" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55771223

Some quotes:

A second coronavirus vaccine manufacturer has warned of supply issues to the European Union, compounding frustration in the bloc.

AstraZeneca said a production problem meant the number of initial doses available would be lower than expected.

The fresh blow comes after some nations' inoculation programmes were slowed due to a cut in deliveries of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine.

The EU Health Commissioner expressed "deep dissatisfaction" at the news.

Officials have not confirmed publicly how big the shortfall will be, but an unnamed EU official told Reuters news agency that deliveries would be reduced to 31m - a cut of 60% - in the first quarter of this year.

The drug firm had been set to deliver about 80 million doses to the 27 nations by March, according to the official who spoke to Reuters.

The AstraZeneca vaccine, developed with Oxford University, has not yet been approved by the EU's drug regulator but is expected to get the green light at the end of this month, paving the way for jabs to be given.


News of the delay comes amid criticism and frustration across the region about the speed of vaccination roll-outs.

Israel, the United Arab Emirates, the UK, and the US are all well ahead of EU nations in terms of doses given per capita so far.


(There is a bar graph showing this if you click on the link.)



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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 23 January 2021 at 1:36pm
To finish off for today with a local story - this is how a Welsh lamb exporter is experiencing Brexit:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-55719498" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-55719498

Some quotes:

One of Wales' largest lamb exporters says the extra cost and paperwork of selling meat into the EU means it is making "virtually nothing".

Meat processing plant Randall Parker Foods in Llanidloes, Powys, warned it may lose a third of its 150 workers unless new border controls change.

The company processes one million lambs a year, half of which are exported to the European Union.

The UK government said they are working to help exporters with the new rules.

Randall Parker Food's general manager Dale Williams said the UK's new post-Brexit trading relationship with the EU "means extra cost, tying someone up all day to do the paperwork for one vehicle".

"If there's multiple products it can take hours per product because we have to send the documents off to be verified before we can release the vehicle to go on its journey," he said.


As it stands today we're operating for virtually nothing. We're doing it for the sake of keeping the doors open at the moment."

Some staff have already been furloughed and Mr Williams fears he could lose a third of his business "which will make the company seriously unviable".

"If the export paperwork and documentation and controls either side of the border continue, I think we will have to make redundancies," he said.



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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 26 January 2021 at 7:54am
Extra Brexit charges when goods cross UK-EU borders

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55752541" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55752541

There are quite a few similar stories in this report - below is the first example:

A couple of weeks ago Lili Piraki, a London-based journalist, was surprised by a text out of the blue from delivery firm DHL.

She was delighted to hear a friend had sent her a present: a pair of gold earrings from Greece. She was less impressed that she would have to pay nearly £30 in taxes to receive the gift.

The extra charges are a result of new post-Brexit rules that came into force on 1 January.




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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 26 January 2021 at 7:57am
You couldn't make this one up!

British businesses advised to set up bases in the EU to avoid red tape and extra charges

British businesses that export to the continent are being encouraged by government trade advisers to set up separate companies inside the EU in order to get around extra charges, paperwork and taxes resulting from Brexit...

In an extraordinary twist to the Brexit saga, UK small businesses are being told by advisers working for the Department for International Trade (DIT) that the best way to circumvent border issues and VAT problems that have been piling up since 1 January is to register new firms within the EU single market, from where they can distribute their goods far more freely.

The heads of two UK businesses that have been beset by Brexit-related problems have told the Observer that, following advice from experts at the Department for International Trade, they have already decided to register new companies in the EU in the next few weeks, and they knew of many others in similar positions. Other companies have also said they too were advised by government officials to register operations in the EU but had not yet made decisions.

Full story here:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/23/brexit-hit-firms-advised-government-officials-set-up-shop-in-eu" rel="nofollow - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/23/brexit-hit-firms-advised-government-officials-set-up-shop-in-eu


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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 26 January 2021 at 8:38am
Many of the above stories have been copied direct from the BBC and are being classed as FACTS. Again most involve import charges, mainly VAT. Every trader in the UK who imported or exported to the EU was aware in early 2020 that VAT would become chargeable in both directions. My question is this - why is it being portrayed by the BBC as some sort of nasty surprise. Buy British no problems. 


Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 26 January 2021 at 8:51am
they can drag as many bad facts as they want,we are out and have to adapt,i've stopped doing roofs in germany,france,spain and holland.LOL


Posted By: surfing-mtber
Date Posted: 26 January 2021 at 9:07am
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

they can drag as many bad facts as they want,we are out and have to adapt,i've stopped doing roofs in germany,france,spain and holland.LOL

ClapClapClapLOL


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Joshua24:15


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 26 January 2021 at 9:09am
Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

they can drag as many bad facts as they want,we are out and have to adapt,i've stopped doing roofs in germany,france,spain and holland.LOL

Some common sense at last - can I quote it as FACT that you are no longer trading overseas unless, of course, that hotel re-roof in the Bahamas comes up. If it does I am available at competitive rates to be your gofer.


Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 26 January 2021 at 9:13am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by ladram ladram wrote:

they can drag as many bad facts as they want,we are out and have to adapt,i've stopped doing roofs in germany,france,spain and holland.LOL

Some common sense at last - can I quote it as FACT that you are no longer trading overseas unless, of course, that hotel re-roof in the Bahamas comes up. If it does I am available at competitive rates to be your gofer.
your on,LOLLOL


Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 27 January 2021 at 7:59am
Got to wait 5 years to discuss this point properly as every respected economic foreacast said the UK would be worse off in the short term (about 5 years). 

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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 27 January 2021 at 8:11am
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Got to wait 5 years to discuss this point properly as every respected economic foreacast said the UK would be worse off in the sort term (about 5 years). 

Somebody needs to tell Aber. Wink


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 10 February 2021 at 12:43pm
Telling quote from Ursula von der Leyen recently :-

Mrs von der Leyen has spoken to a number of newspapers in recent days but  https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/speech_21_505" rel="nofollow - this was her first public acceptance of criticism . Last week, she told German website Süddeutsche Zeitung that "a country on its own can be a speedboat, the EU is more like a tanker".

Well guess who the speedboat is % population vaccinated :-

UK 19.2
EU 3.9.

Enough said I think, 


Posted By: Jones2004
Date Posted: 10 February 2021 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Telling quote from Ursula von der Leyen recently :-

Mrs von der Leyen has spoken to a number of newspapers in recent days but  https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/speech_21_505" rel="nofollow - this was her first public acceptance of criticism . Last week, she told German website Süddeutsche Zeitung that "a country on its own can be a speedboat, the EU is more like a tanker".

Well guess who the speedboat is % population vaccinated :-

UK 19.2
EU 3.9.

Enough said I think, 
Important to point out that the UK could still have run its vaccination programme as it has even if it were still a EU member (most of the contracts were signed and the first vaccine approved when we were still following EU rules). However the criticism of the slow reactions of the EU are fully deserved.


Posted By: PenScarlet
Date Posted: 10 February 2021 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Telling quote from Ursula von der Leyen recently :-

Mrs von der Leyen has spoken to a number of newspapers in recent days but  https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/speech_21_505" rel="nofollow - this was her first public acceptance of criticism . Last week, she told German website Süddeutsche Zeitung that "a country on its own can be a speedboat, the EU is more like a tanker".

Well guess who the speedboat is % population vaccinated :-

UK 19.2
EU 3.9.

Enough said I think, 
Important to point out that the UK could still have run its vaccination programme as it has even if it were still a EU member (most of the contracts were signed and the first vaccine approved when we were still following EU rules). However the criticism of the slow reactions of the EU are fully deserved.
The EU cancelled Germany's application for vaccination


Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 11 February 2021 at 10:39am
Got to remember that it's an unlicensed vaccine that the UK Government has allowed to be rolled out.  It's been thoroughly tested but hasn't gone through the full rigours of being licensed. Nothing wrong with this as it's the sort of decision that's sensible to do in a pandemic emergency. 

A difference in philosophy between the EU and UK I guess and one which Brexiteers will use to explain why they voted to leave. However I would also add that had we kept the death toll down to levels seen in the EU then we might not have been in such a panic to roll out the vaccine in the first place. 

In the final analysis, countries will be judged on their death toll, not the speed at which they delivered the vaccine.


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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 11 February 2021 at 11:33am
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Got to remember that it's an unlicensed vaccine that the UK Government has allowed to be rolled out.  It's been thoroughly tested but hasn't gone through the full rigours of being licensed. Nothing wrong with this as it's the sort of decision that's sensible to do in a pandemic emergency. 

A difference in philosophy between the EU and UK I guess and one which Brexiteers will use to explain why they voted to leave. However I would also add that had we kept the death toll down to levels seen in the EU then we might not have been in such a panic to roll out the vaccine in the first place. 

In the final analysis, countries will be judged on their death toll, not the speed at which they delivered the vaccine.

Yes, but the argument is those that deliver the vaccine fastest will reduce their death toll.

One thing I do find a bit strange is that for all their obsession over borders, the Government have been unable or unwilling to place any real restriction on entering or leaving the UK until very recently. Thousands of skiiers going off on holiday this winter for example. How on earth? Not to mention numerous rich influencers or businesspeople simply doing what they want.

And then evidence. So the Kent strain is now in 70 countries and is now being predicted to become the most dominant strain worldwide. It was first characterised in late September so this has occurred within 3 months. Therefore our borders have not been restricted at all, or whatever restrictions were in place did not work, even after the experience of having had the virus here since January. 


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 11 February 2021 at 11:50am
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Got to remember that it's an unlicensed vaccine that the UK Government has allowed to be rolled out.  It's been thoroughly tested but hasn't gone through the full rigours of being licensed. Nothing wrong with this as it's the sort of decision that's sensible to do in a pandemic emergency. 

A difference in philosophy between the EU and UK I guess and one which Brexiteers will use to explain why they voted to leave. However I would also add that had we kept the death toll down to levels seen in the EU then we might not have been in such a panic to roll out the vaccine in the first place. 

In the final analysis, countries will be judged on their death toll, not the speed at which they delivered the vaccine.

Yes, but the argument is those that deliver the vaccine fastest will reduce their death toll.

One thing I do find a bit strange is that for all their obsession over borders, the Government have been unable or unwilling to place any real restriction on entering or leaving the UK until very recently. Thousands of skiiers going off on holiday this winter for example. How on earth? Not to mention numerous rich influencers or businesspeople simply doing what they want.

And then evidence. So the Kent strain is now in 70 countries and is now being predicted to become the most dominant strain worldwide. It was first characterised in late September so this has occurred within 3 months. Therefore our borders have not been restricted at all, or whatever restrictions were in place did not work, even after the experience of having had the virus here since January. 

I simply dont think the govt could be bothered with the enormous work involved in shutting non urgent travel and setting up a comprehensive system of quarantine for all arrivals. The chunnel never shut, the flights kept coming and going. Even now this supposed hotel quarantine sounds half baked.
Lest we forget in the case  of the vaccines, the scientists and nhs and the systems already in place did the roll out for the government with all the necessary organization in place as we always do mass flu jabs etc But when it comes to setting up something new like a vast effective quarantine system or track and trace they fell woefully short. 


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 11 February 2021 at 11:57am
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Got to remember that it's an unlicensed vaccine that the UK Government has allowed to be rolled out.  It's been thoroughly tested but hasn't gone through the full rigours of being licensed. Nothing wrong with this as it's the sort of decision that's sensible to do in a pandemic emergency. 

A difference in philosophy between the EU and UK I guess and one which Brexiteers will use to explain why they voted to leave. However I would also add that had we kept the death toll down to levels seen in the EU then we might not have been in such a panic to roll out the vaccine in the first place. 

In the final analysis, countries will be judged on their death toll, not the speed at which they delivered the vaccine.

Yes, but the argument is those that deliver the vaccine fastest will reduce their death toll.

One thing I do find a bit strange is that for all their obsession over borders, the Government have been unable or unwilling to place any real restriction on entering or leaving the UK until very recently. Thousands of skiiers going off on holiday this winter for example. How on earth? Not to mention numerous rich influencers or businesspeople simply doing what they want.

And then evidence. So the Kent strain is now in 70 countries and is now being predicted to become the most dominant strain worldwide. It was first characterised in late September so this has occurred within 3 months. Therefore our borders have not been restricted at all, or whatever restrictions were in place did not work, even after the experience of having had the virus here since January. 

I simply dont think the govt could be bothered with the enormous work involved in shutting non urgent travel and setting up a comprehensive system of quarantine for all arrivals. The chunnel never shut, the flights kept coming and going. Even now this supposed hotel quarantine sounds half baked.
Lest we forget in the case  of the vaccines, the scientists and nhs and the systems already in place did the roll out for the government with all the necessary organization in place as we always do mass flu jabs etc But when it comes to setting up something new like a vast effective quarantine system or track and trace they fell woefully short. 

It does a bit and seems to be very high fines/punishment for countries already blocked and relatively affordable ones for the rest. There is an aspect of this contradiction between a pro-Brexit but very libertarian Government and what is required to keep coronavirus in check, and evidence their backers (donors and the right-wing press, which are often the same people) have had a lot of influence in delaying lockdowns and ending them, plus making them very hesitant to impose any travel restriction etc. And then led by a professional bullpoo artist we have the inevitable result. But I digress. 


Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 11 February 2021 at 5:17pm
Originally posted by dr_martinov dr_martinov wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Got to remember that it's an unlicensed vaccine that the UK Government has allowed to be rolled out.  It's been thoroughly tested but hasn't gone through the full rigours of being licensed. Nothing wrong with this as it's the sort of decision that's sensible to do in a pandemic emergency. 

A difference in philosophy between the EU and UK I guess and one which Brexiteers will use to explain why they voted to leave. However I would also add that had we kept the death toll down to levels seen in the EU then we might not have been in such a panic to roll out the vaccine in the first place. 

In the final analysis, countries will be judged on their death toll, not the speed at which they delivered the vaccine.

Yes, but the argument is those that deliver the vaccine fastest will reduce their death toll.

One thing I do find a bit strange is that for all their obsession over borders, the Government have been unable or unwilling to place any real restriction on entering or leaving the UK until very recently. Thousands of skiiers going off on holiday this winter for example. How on earth? Not to mention numerous rich influencers or businesspeople simply doing what they want.

And then evidence. So the Kent strain is now in 70 countries and is now being predicted to become the most dominant strain worldwide. It was first characterised in late September so this has occurred within 3 months. Therefore our borders have not been restricted at all, or whatever restrictions were in place did not work, even after the experience of having had the virus here since January. 
Can't reduce the death toll mun. Smile But I know what you mean. 

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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 12 March 2021 at 8:16am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Got to wait 5 years to discuss this point properly as every respected economic foreacast said the UK would be worse off in the sort term (about 5 years). 

Somebody needs to tell Aber. Wink

Great. It'll be too late by then, won't it?

In the meantime, exports fall by 40%, though of course the pandemic is partly responsible. This provides a convenient figleaf for the government - unfortunately.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56370690" rel="nofollow -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56370690" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56370690

Is there anyone out there who doesn't think that we'll have to rejoin the customs union (at least) sooner or later?

What a mess!


-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 12 March 2021 at 8:54am
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Got to wait 5 years to discuss this point properly as every respected economic foreacast said the UK would be worse off in the sort term (about 5 years). 

Somebody needs to tell Aber. Wink

Great. It'll be too late by then, won't it?

In the meantime, exports fall by 40%, though of course the pandemic is partly responsible. This provides a convenient figleaf for the government - unfortunately.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56370690" rel="nofollow -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56370690" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56370690

Is there anyone out there who doesn't think that we'll have to rejoin the customs union (at least) sooner or later?

What a mess!

Aber I know we've had a good joust about this situation but we cannot draw any conclusions on economic effects of Brexit until the economy returns to full working & we get rid of the undoubted pent up demand there will be and some form of normality, whatever shape that will be. Getting businesses back to speed and thousands of people back to work is clearly our top priority. 

The only observation which I can draw over these first few weeks is that it does appear that our leaving has really upset many top politicians in the EU and their reactions over vaccine shipments and problems created in Northern Ireland by the NI protocols are worrying if that points to the future level of co-operation we are going to see. Hopefully someone within the 27 will take a deep breath and start leading with diplomacy.


Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 12 March 2021 at 10:29am
Originally posted by aber-fan aber-fan wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Got to wait 5 years to discuss this point properly as every respected economic foreacast said the UK would be worse off in the sort term (about 5 years). 

Somebody needs to tell Aber. Wink

Great. It'll be too late by then, won't it?

In the meantime, exports fall by 40%, though of course the pandemic is partly responsible. This provides a convenient figleaf for the government - unfortunately.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56370690" rel="nofollow -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56370690" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56370690

Is there anyone out there who doesn't think that we'll have to rejoin the customs union (at least) sooner or later?

What a mess!
Aber, my point was that it's quite clearly a mess and everyone knew it was going to be a mess.  It will be bad for the UK for the next 5 years at least and may continue to be bad long after that.  

You will see the UK government pointing to things like the Oxford Vaccine to demonstrate how the UK can go it alone and be the best etc etc, whilst completely ignoring the fact that the Oxford vaccine was underpinned by 7 or 8 years of EU research funding jointly researched by an EU consortium of which Oxford Uni was one partrner. 

The EU has recently shot itself in the foot a few times as GPR has pointed out, and this reminds us that we live in an imperfect world. 



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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.



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