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Lions dinosaurs call for the end of tactical subs

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Printed Date: 27 November 2021 at 6:18pm
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Topic: Lions dinosaurs call for the end of tactical subs
Posted By: salmidach
Subject: Lions dinosaurs call for the end of tactical subs
Date Posted: 14 August 2021 at 8:31pm
4 Lions dinosaurs who have never played PROFESSIONAL rugby have written to World rugby asking them to ban tactical substitutions.

Their reasoning. Players nowadays are conditioned to only play 60 minutes of rugby....

What a load of tosh....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/58213246" rel="nofollow - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/58213246


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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance - Terry Pratchett



Replies:
Posted By: scarletnut
Date Posted: 14 August 2021 at 8:33pm
Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

4 Lions dinosaurs who have never played PROFESSIONAL rugby have written to World rugby asking them to ban tactical substitutions.

Their reasoning. Players nowadays are conditioned to only play 60 minutes of rugby....

What a load of tosh....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/58213246" rel="nofollow - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/58213246
You say it’s the dinosaur view but some of the best S&C specialists in world rugby are also calling for this change 

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I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1


Posted By: dyniol53
Date Posted: 14 August 2021 at 8:35pm
I kind of agree with the premise. As a sport rugby is more enjoyable for players and spectators if you get 15v15 as opposed to 23 vs 23.

But I can’t really see how “only sub for injuries” gets policed fairly, without incentivising another bloodgate or players feigning injury

Maybe they should make the subs do tiring exercise BEFORE they‘re allowed on the pitch lol


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https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en


Posted By: salmidach
Date Posted: 14 August 2021 at 8:35pm
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

4 Lions dinosaurs who have never played PROFESSIONAL rugby have written to World rugby asking them to ban tactical substitutions.

Their reasoning. Players nowadays are conditioned to only play 60 minutes of rugby....

What a load of tosh....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/58213246" rel="nofollow - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/58213246
You say it’s the dinosaur view but some of the best S&C specialists in world rugby are also calling for this change 

I'm sorry but it's a load of crap. so they think that props playing 80 minutes of rugby with all the pressure on their necks is acceptable.

Players today are more conditioned than ever. what they are trying to do is remove the hit. that's all this is about.


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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance - Terry Pratchett


Posted By: dyniol53
Date Posted: 14 August 2021 at 8:39pm
Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

4 Lions dinosaurs who have never played PROFESSIONAL rugby have written to World rugby asking them to ban tactical substitutions.

Their reasoning. Players nowadays are conditioned to only play 60 minutes of rugby....

What a load of tosh....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/58213246" rel="nofollow - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/58213246
You say it’s the dinosaur view but some of the best S&C specialists in world rugby are also calling for this change 

I'm sorry but it's a load of crap. so they think that props playing 80 minutes of rugby with all the pressure on their necks is acceptable.

Players today are more conditioned than ever. what they are trying to do is remove the hit. that's all this is about.

Props don’t get hauled off cause their necks hurt though do they? More often than not they’re hauled off because they’re only conditioned for 60mins tops. 

It would be good to have props playing 80mins because then you’d have chance to exploit the space around them as they get more fatigued 


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https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en


Posted By: dyniol53
Date Posted: 14 August 2021 at 8:57pm
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Maybe they should make the subs do tiring exercise BEFORE they‘re allowed on the pitch lol

I meant this as a joke but to some extent they could do this with data coming off the on-field players’ GPS. So as the game goes on the off-field sub could have to sit on a bike and give a similar output to the player they’re assigned as sub for before they’re allowed to come on. 

Would be a ridiculous spectacle but if they want to remove the 
situation of a 100% fresh Kyle Sinkler coming on charging at a player who’s been playing 60mins and potentially injuring them 


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https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en


Posted By: Gate12
Date Posted: 14 August 2021 at 10:07pm
I'd just reduce the number of subs, 4 forwards (3 frontrow and 1 back 5) and 2 backs, reduce it to 3 and 2 over time getting frontrow players to cover more than 1 position.


Posted By: salmidach
Date Posted: 14 August 2021 at 10:36pm
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

4 Lions dinosaurs who have never played PROFESSIONAL rugby have written to World rugby asking them to ban tactical substitutions.

Their reasoning. Players nowadays are conditioned to only play 60 minutes of rugby....

What a load of tosh....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/58213246" rel="nofollow - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/58213246
You say it’s the dinosaur view but some of the best S&C specialists in world rugby are also calling for this change 

I'm sorry but it's a load of crap. so they think that props playing 80 minutes of rugby with all the pressure on their necks is acceptable.

Players today are more conditioned than ever. what they are trying to do is remove the hit. that's all this is about.

Props don’t get hauled off cause their necks hurt though do they? More often than not they’re hauled off because they’re only conditioned for 60mins tops. 

It would be good to have props playing 80mins because then you’d have chance to exploit the space around them as they get more fatigued 

Incorrect, Pivac likes to play his team without changes at times.

It's about getting the upper hand at scrum time. Now that world rugby is trying to limit the amount of scrums there's no need to replace them is there.


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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance - Terry Pratchett


Posted By: bills burr
Date Posted: 14 August 2021 at 11:14pm
Something needs to be done thats for sure....The game is just a load of crash bang wallop players grow ever bigger and get replaced after an hour or less by another monster...Theres also the fact the bench comes on fresh against players knackered after an hour. Not sure if this is the answer , even if it did help how youd police it to say for certain a player is or isnt injured is also pretty tricky

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B BURR


Posted By: bills burr
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 1:07am
Though none of the normal rules apply to the all blacks who just walloped the wallabies with a performance so sublime it was bordering on some kind of mystical wizardry

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B BURR


Posted By: dyniol53
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 1:13am
Originally posted by bills burr bills burr wrote:

Though none of the normal rules apply to the all blacks who just walloped the wallabies with a performance so sublime it was bordering on some kind of mystical wizardry

They are beautiful to watch. 

Aussies no mugs but made to look so average.

SA v NZ will be a tasty one 


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https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en


Posted By: bills burr
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 1:18am
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by bills burr bills burr wrote:

Though none of the normal rules apply to the all blacks who just walloped the wallabies with a performance so sublime it was bordering on some kind of mystical wizardry

They are beautiful to watch. 

Aussies no mugs but made to look so average.

SA v NZ will be a tasty one 

Their lines of running, intelligence, skills, speed of thought and power was awesome...the full back even banged one over from 60 meters too. The boks will to starve them of ball and dominate set pieces to have any hope.


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B BURR


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 7:39am
Originally posted by bills burr bills burr wrote:

Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by bills burr bills burr wrote:

Though none of the normal rules apply to the all blacks who just walloped the wallabies with a performance so sublime it was bordering on some kind of mystical wizardry

They are beautiful to watch. 

Aussies no mugs but made to look so average.

SA v NZ will be a tasty one 

Their lines of running, intelligence, skills, speed of thought and power was awesome...the full back even banged one over from 60 meters too. The boks will to starve them of ball and dominate set pieces to have any hope.

Well the Boks have managed to do that on a great number of occasions over the years. The All Blacks are a wonderfully talented group of rugby players that is not in question. The old adage of course is true - you cannot play that way without space & of course the ball. The Boks will be in their faces from minute one competing at scrum, lineout & breakdown as if their lives depended on it. I, for one, would not be putting money either way. 


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 7:48am
To call the signatories dinosaurs is pretty disrespectful. The one individual they should really take heed of is Sir Ian. He, unlike the others, has stayed involved in the professional game for many years post playing & has an understanding of the game few can match. 

The idea put forward is not a new one - the players affected are predominantly front 5 forwards who are now, at the top level, somewhere between 120-140kgs of solid muscle. Reducing that mass by 10-15kgs would allow better aerobic performance by individuals and reduce collisions impacts; reducing the number of allowed substitutions would create more space as the game wore on. Not a lot to dislike in that idea from my point of view. 


Posted By: dyniol53
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 9:39am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Not a lot to dislike in that idea from my point of view. 

Yeah I agree with the intent but how would enforcement work? Relying on coaches/players honesty? 


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https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en


Posted By: scarletabroad
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 11:19am
I’ve commented many times on this related topic. The easiest way without the need for policing is to allow as many on the bench as you desire but you can only replace one back one forward and initially for safety reasons the front row. The subs can be tactical if you want but you can only have the one back one forward. Any injuries you play minus one. Player size in mass terms will reduce for a more aerobic orientated fitness regime. Space will improve and other skill sets will then have to be polished and improved upon.


Posted By: scarletnut
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 11:21am
Worth noting many current players are pushing for this change as well as are lots in the medical community. It’s got merit 

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I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1


Posted By: Dai38
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 11:42am
I sat next to Nigel Owens in a dinner a few months  after the World Cup 2015, he was in favour of this, and so he said were many other people in the game. 

I know many on here are not really Owens's greatest fans, but when top referees, players, medical staff, are talking about it, then at least the rugby world shout respect their views and discuss it.

For what it's worth which is not a lot I know, I totally agree with the idea.


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Be careful when you pick up the stick.........IT MAY BE THE WRONG END!!!!!!!!!!


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by Dai38 Dai38 wrote:

I sat next to Nigel Owens in a dinner a few months  after the World Cup 2015, he was in favour of this, and so he said were many other people in the game. 

I know many on here are not really Owens's greatest fans, but when top referees, players, medical staff, are talking about it, then at least the rugby world shout respect their views and discuss it.

For what it's worth which is not a lot I know, I totally agree with the idea.

Its worth a lot Dai - true rugby fans like yourself know when their game is in trouble. Our game was meant to be a handling game & we need to get back to that. The Lions series has truly highlighted many of the wrongs with the current game. That is not meant to decry the Boks who are playing to the rules & lets not forget are World Champions. 


Posted By: dyniol53
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Dai38 Dai38 wrote:

For what it's worth which is not a lot I know, I totally agree with the idea.

The Lions series has truly highlighted many of the wrongs with the current game. That is not meant to decry the Boks who are playing to the rules & lets not forget are World Champions. 

Exactly you can’t blame coaches for doing what they think they need to win, the lawmakers just need to tweak things so to incentivise more entertaining and skilful strategies 


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https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en


Posted By: bills burr
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 12:31pm
if they speed it up, increase ball in play time and reduce collisions, the all blacks may put 70 on the aussies next timeLOL

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B BURR


Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by bills burr bills burr wrote:

if they speed it up, increase ball in play time and reduce collisions, the all blacks may put 70 on the aussies next timeLOL

Indeed they might - but as things stand they won't put many on the BoksOuch


Posted By: 157cb
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 12:48pm


  There is some merit in this , to many subs .

   If there any sense with the law makers , make it illegal to clear out the jackaler. How many very serious injuries have  there been?  since Gwyn Jones broke his neck years ago .

    Ban the box kick , terrible to watch . Another very dangerous area of the game , the aerial battle, so dangerous . Game does not need this boring tactic . It made the SA v Lions unwatchable for so many people .


Posted By: salmidach
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 12:58pm
so people think keeping players on the pitch for 80 minutes will speed up the game?

Rugby is going backwards at a rate of knots...

we've gone from creating rules to protecting players, to getting rid of tactical subs and forcing players to play 80 minute rugby week in week out...


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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance - Terry Pratchett


Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 1:01pm
The increasing size of players is also a big issue, so to speak.. I wonder how much of that is from natural training or "normal" diet? Even looking at games only ten years ago a massive difference in physique and collision impact these days.


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 1:57pm
I don’t like the way they hold the ball these days and the length of the grass. This is the important thing. 


Posted By: scarletnut
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 2:36pm
This is an insightful interview with Cardiff High Performance manager Trystan Bevan.

https://www.dai-sport.com/cardiffs-trystan-bevan-backs-rugby-rule-change-and-says-props-only-play-for-half-an-hour-and-try-to-demolish-people/" rel="nofollow - https://www.dai-sport.com/cardiffs-trystan-bevan-backs-rugby-rule-change-and-says-props-only-play-for-half-an-hour-and-try-to-demolish-people/


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I still wake up late at night and think of what might have been when tim stimpson hit that jammy penalty1


Posted By: Dai38
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Originally posted by Dai38 Dai38 wrote:

I sat next to Nigel Owens in a dinner a few months  after the World Cup 2015, he was in favour of this, and so he said were many other people in the game. 

I know many on here are not really Owens's greatest fans, but when top referees, players, medical staff, are talking about it, then at least the rugby world shout respect their views and discuss it.

For what it's worth which is not a lot I know, I totally agree with the idea.

Its worth a lot Dai - true rugby fans like yourself know when their game is in trouble. Our game was meant to be a handling game & we need to get back to that. The Lions series has truly highlighted many of the wrongs with the current game. That is not meant to decry the Boks who are playing to the rules & lets not forget are World Champions. 

Thanks GPR


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Be careful when you pick up the stick.........IT MAY BE THE WRONG END!!!!!!!!!!


Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

This is an insightful interview with Cardiff High Performance manager Trystan Bevan.

https://www.dai-sport.com/cardiffs-trystan-bevan-backs-rugby-rule-change-and-says-props-only-play-for-half-an-hour-and-try-to-demolish-people/" rel="nofollow - https://www.dai-sport.com/cardiffs-trystan-bevan-backs-rugby-rule-change-and-says-props-only-play-for-half-an-hour-and-try-to-demolish-people/
That’s a very interesting piece and a good read.

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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

This is an insightful interview with Cardiff High Performance manager Trystan Bevan.

https://www.dai-sport.com/cardiffs-trystan-bevan-backs-rugby-rule-change-and-says-props-only-play-for-half-an-hour-and-try-to-demolish-people/" rel="nofollow - https://www.dai-sport.com/cardiffs-trystan-bevan-backs-rugby-rule-change-and-says-props-only-play-for-half-an-hour-and-try-to-demolish-people/


Good read.


Posted By: reesytheexile
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 6:45pm
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Originally posted by scarletnut scarletnut wrote:

This is an insightful interview with Cardiff High Performance manager Trystan Bevan.

https://www.dai-sport.com/cardiffs-trystan-bevan-backs-rugby-rule-change-and-says-props-only-play-for-half-an-hour-and-try-to-demolish-people/" rel="nofollow - https://www.dai-sport.com/cardiffs-trystan-bevan-backs-rugby-rule-change-and-says-props-only-play-for-half-an-hour-and-try-to-demolish-people/
That’s a very interesting piece and a good read.
Good read and the so called dinosaurs seem more like prophets to me. We can’t go on with things as they are. 

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"I'd rather have been a judge than a miner.Being a miner,as soon as you are too old and tired and sick and stupid to do the job properly,you have to go.The very opposite applies with judges!"P.Cook


Posted By: bills burr
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

so people think keeping players on the pitch for 80 minutes will speed up the game?

Rugby is going backwards at a rate of knots...

we've gone from creating rules to protecting players, to getting rid of tactical subs and forcing players to play 80 minute rugby week in week out...

You are against all suggestions so far mooted and you consider all older ex players dinosaurs, pretty rude really, so lets get productive what are your suggestions?


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B BURR


Posted By: salmidach
Date Posted: 15 August 2021 at 10:36pm
Originally posted by bills burr bills burr wrote:

Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

so people think keeping players on the pitch for 80 minutes will speed up the game?

Rugby is going backwards at a rate of knots...

we've gone from creating rules to protecting players, to getting rid of tactical subs and forcing players to play 80 minute rugby week in week out...

You are against all suggestions so far mooted and you consider all older ex players dinosaurs, pretty rude really, so lets get productive what are your suggestions?

stopping tactical subs isn't the answer. change the rules, make tries really expensive to concede, increase the points for tries, decrease the points for kicks. get rid of conversions to speed up the game.

We all want the ball in play longer. I think the longest the ball was in play during the lions tests was 28 minutes, in a game that lasted nearly 2 hours. Get rid of the scrum half human centipede, stop mauls (technically offside). There are many ways to speed up the game. 

The hits will ALWAYS be in the game now due to the size of the players and the enhancements (legal) in sports development and nutrition. By removing tactical subs, you might as well remove the coaches from attending the game and we'll have bloodgate after bloodgate.

quite a few of you don't remember pre-professional rugby when we didn't have tactical subs and the obvious motioning of coaches to tell players to go down and stay down so that they could be subbed off the field. It made a mockery of the injured player sub issue...

Who's going to say if a player is injured? the field doctor? is there going to be an extensive examination of a player to see if they are injured. Hey doc I've got a pulled ham. right well we'll have to take you for a scan to see if you are actually injured before we can let the other player on.

It's a bloody farce.....

If you want to make the game more entertaining then bloody officiate it properly. use the yellow card system for what it was brought in for and that is the professional foul, for slowing the game down. 

The game is being run by a bunch of [beep]ing idiots who just watch league and say we want to be like that. No we bloody don't. we want quick recycling, less kicking (the 50:22 rule will make more kicking) (the drop out from under the posts will mean MORE kicking) we want ball in bloody hand not ball to foot all the time. 


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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance - Terry Pratchett


Posted By: bills burr
Date Posted: 16 August 2021 at 12:05am
Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

Originally posted by bills burr bills burr wrote:

Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

so people think keeping players on the pitch for 80 minutes will speed up the game?

Rugby is going backwards at a rate of knots...

we've gone from creating rules to protecting players, to getting rid of tactical subs and forcing players to play 80 minute rugby week in week out...

You are against all suggestions so far mooted and you consider all older ex players dinosaurs, pretty rude really, so lets get productive what are your suggestions?

stopping tactical subs isn't the answer. change the rules, make tries really expensive to concede, increase the points for tries, decrease the points for kicks. get rid of conversions to speed up the game.

We all want the ball in play longer. I think the longest the ball was in play during the lions tests was 28 minutes, in a game that lasted nearly 2 hours. Get rid of the scrum half human centipede, stop mauls (technically offside). There are many ways to speed up the game. 

The hits will ALWAYS be in the game now due to the size of the players and the enhancements (legal) in sports development and nutrition. By removing tactical subs, you might as well remove the coaches from attending the game and we'll have bloodgate after bloodgate.

quite a few of you don't remember pre-professional rugby when we didn't have tactical subs and the obvious motioning of coaches to tell players to go down and stay down so that they could be subbed off the field. It made a mockery of the injured player sub issue...

Who's going to say if a player is injured? the field doctor? is there going to be an extensive examination of a player to see if they are injured. Hey doc I've got a pulled ham. right well we'll have to take you for a scan to see if you are actually injured before we can let the other player on.

It's a bloody farce.....

If you want to make the game more entertaining then bloody officiate it properly. use the yellow card system for what it was brought in for and that is the professional foul, for slowing the game down. 

The game is being run by a bunch of [beep]ing idiots who just watch league and say we want to be like that. No we bloody don't. we want quick recycling, less kicking (the 50:22 rule will make more kicking) (the drop out from under the posts will mean MORE kicking) we want ball in bloody hand not ball to foot all the time. 

Fair do's that was a nice ematy reply with some interesting suggestions for us all to chew over. Without going into depth at this time of night, I wholly agree that the yellow isnt being used enough to punish ball killers. The aerialping pong obviously needs to be challenged, its more like gaelic football at times.Also are the refs really policing the back foot offside law? Do players take regular drugs tests too? Is the speed of their accelerated growth healthy ? Lifting at lineouts ? why not outlaw that? its dangerous as heck and slows the game down further....Not going bac k to 1970s lineouts but just ensure the gap is closed and players are in their correct positions and let them compete fairly for possession. 

There is also using our nous more, the all blacks have never commmitted more than 3 men to the ruck for 30 years, most other teams dive in long after the ball is lost. so we end up out numbered by their defence and hammered. Force them to cmmit to rucks pick and drive if necessary, snipe etc easier said than done lol

more later .....


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B BURR


Posted By: Dai38
Date Posted: 16 August 2021 at 12:27pm
There are 2 issues to be discussed:-

A-Player safety

B-The game of rugby

I feel reducing the usage of subs is aimed to make the game safer, it will take a few seasons to sort it all out, but it can be done, training is geared now for power and short time on the pitch, IF it does change, then players training techniques will also change with emphasis on playing for longer, i.e. 80 minutes, it could lead to a more open game, if you remember Wales and Llanelli in the 60's & 70's, it was their fitness that won a lot of games, with scoring 20/30 points in the last 15/20 minutes, tries were 3 pts for much of that time, so while not advocating going back to that way, teams can adapt with the 21st century version of that game.
Tom Hudson and Ieuan Evans (coach) were paramount in that in the mid 60's.

How many of us, or more important mothers would want their sons or daughters to play rugby, one can see from so many head injuries how bad it is. That has to change.

As far as rugby goes that will keep on changing and as I said at the start another discussion point.
 


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Be careful when you pick up the stick.........IT MAY BE THE WRONG END!!!!!!!!!!


Posted By: salmidach
Date Posted: 16 August 2021 at 3:34pm
Again, who legislates the injury, who decides whether a player is injured or not.

A team would still require a complete front row cover on the bench!


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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance - Terry Pratchett


Posted By: John
Date Posted: 16 August 2021 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

Again, who legislates the injury, who decides whether a player is injured or not.

A team would still require a complete front row cover on the bench!

And the proposal is not all positive about player safety. It introduces incentives to keep injured players on the pitch, particularly those who had a bang to the head. 


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 16 August 2021 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by salmidach salmidach wrote:

Again, who legislates the injury, who decides whether a player is injured or not.

A team would still require a complete front row cover on the bench!

Doctors paper?


Posted By: bills burr
Date Posted: 16 August 2021 at 11:42pm
Originally posted by Dai38 Dai38 wrote:

There are 2 issues to be discussed:-

A-Player safety

B-The game of rugby

I feel reducing the usage of subs is aimed to make the game safer, it will take a few seasons to sort it all out, but it can be done, training is geared now for power and short time on the pitch, IF it does change, then players training techniques will also change with emphasis on playing for longer, i.e. 80 minutes, it could lead to a more open game, if you remember Wales and Llanelli in the 60's & 70's, it was their fitness that won a lot of games, with scoring 20/30 points in the last 15/20 minutes, tries were 3 pts for much of that time, so while not advocating going back to that way, teams can adapt with the 21st century version of that game.
Tom Hudson and Ieuan Evans (coach) were paramount in that in the mid 60's.

How many of us, or more important mothers would want their sons or daughters to play rugby, one can see from so many head injuries how bad it is. That has to change.

As far as rugby goes that will keep on changing and as I said at the start another discussion point.
 
and fathers


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B BURR


Posted By: dyniol53
Date Posted: 24 August 2021 at 5:41pm
John Barclay has written a response to this but it’s behind a paywall so I don’t know why he’s disagreeing but anyone who does have a Times sub is welcome to read  https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-want-rugby-to-be-safer-but-suspect-famous-five-are-wrong-on-subs-86zsr5nj7" rel="nofollow - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-want-rugby-to-be-safer-but-suspect-famous-five-are-wrong-on-subs-86zsr5nj7

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Posted By: Rugger8
Date Posted: 09 September 2021 at 2:01pm
Sorry for a somewhat cotroversial first post but there is a huge elephant in the room here. Which also transends the the issue of head injuries. How are these people getting to this size? Anyone who thinks its by eating chicken and brocoli and doing weights is extremely deluded. Anyone who thinks that drugtesting works is also deluded. Research the amount of time the HGH is dedectable after administration and how many times the normal level of Testostorone in the body will pass a drug test. The only people getting caught are idiots at lower levels. It was quite common in the game going back to the 1980s, it is now the norm. 


Posted By: dyniol53
Date Posted: 09 September 2021 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by Rugger8 Rugger8 wrote:

Sorry for a somewhat cotroversial first post but there is a huge elephant in the room here. Which also transends the the issue of head injuries. How are these people getting to this size? Anyone who thinks its by eating chicken and brocoli and doing weights is extremely deluded. Anyone who thinks that drugtesting works is also deluded. Research the amount of time the HGH is dedectable after administration and how many times the normal level of Testostorone in the body will pass a drug test. The only people getting caught are idiots at lower levels. It was quite common in the game going back to the 1980s, it is now the norm. 

Croeso! I do often wonder about this in rugby, specifically how few cases there are at the pro level seems to surprise me.

Maybe some the teams are doing well to evade getting caught but I think S&C teams are so highly skilled now that there’s probably not that much to gain from being 5% stronger if your chances of getting caught are even remotely close to 5%.

A bit of testosterone top up could help but in a complex sport like rugby it has only marginal gains vs in simpler sports like athletics and cycling the whole competition is about marginal gains, so efforts to beat the doping tests has a potentially bigger payoff.

Maybe I’m naive, but rugby takes punishments seriously, Sarries got relegated for financial misconduct, Harlquins had to live in the shadow of bloodgate for a long time. 

There’s huge sums to lose by doping in pro-rugby and it doesn’t make you that much more likely to win. 


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Posted By: Rugger8
Date Posted: 09 September 2021 at 8:04pm
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by Rugger8 Rugger8 wrote:

Sorry for a somewhat cotroversial first post but there is a huge elephant in the room here. Which also transends the the issue of head injuries. How are these people getting to this size? Anyone who thinks its by eating chicken and brocoli and doing weights is extremely deluded. Anyone who thinks that drugtesting works is also deluded. Research the amount of time the HGH is dedectable after administration and how many times the normal level of Testostorone in the body will pass a drug test. The only people getting caught are idiots at lower levels. It was quite common in the game going back to the 1980s, it is now the norm. 

Croeso! I do often wonder about this in rugby, specifically how few cases there are at the pro level seems to surprise me.

Maybe some the teams are doing well to evade getting caught but I think S&C teams are so highly skilled now that there’s probably not that much to gain from being 5% stronger if your chances of getting caught are even remotely close to 5%.

A bit of testosterone top up could help but in a complex sport like rugby it has only marginal gains vs in simpler sports like athletics and cycling the whole competition is about marginal gains, so efforts to beat the doping tests has a potentially bigger payoff.

Maybe I’m naive, but rugby takes punishments seriously, Sarries got relegated for financial misconduct, Harlquins had to live in the shadow of bloodgate for a long time. 

There’s huge sums to lose by doping in pro-rugby and it doesn’t make you that much more likely to win. 


Thank you for your welcome. I can assure you that the gains to be made are far in excess of 5%, and that the gains are not only strength. Indeed there is no sport IMO that is more suited to the use of PEDs. than rugby. It means you can train more and recover quicker, you have more aggression and drive, you are less likely to get injured and when you do you have shorter layoffs. You can be bigger stronger and faster. It in effect gives you a similar advantage to puberty, it takes you to the next level. It can be and is often the difference between being a professional sportsman and not. The drug of choice is HGH usually stacked with testosterone or one of its derivetives, no one is getting caught taking HGH because you must be tested within 2 houres of taking it, no one. I have no answer, its is what it is but if anyone believes you can get to the size of these players, with the percentage bodyfat they have and still do significant amounts of anearobic and aerobic training then the human race as evolved to a remarkable degree in 20 years. 


Posted By: dyniol53
Date Posted: 10 September 2021 at 7:00pm
Interesting, I don’t know much about it. I think you’re right at the individual level there can be a big incentive to take it, but at the pro level there’s too much to lose from getting caught. 

If one player thinks he needs to take it to make it, but then gets caught once they’ve made it they’ve f***ed their whole club? Serious breach of contract or serious damage for the club.

One thing that’s going to be interesting is because of covid athletes are now used to regular, even daily, testing - it wouldn’t surprise me if WADA look to find ways of testing and measuring players for T or other hormones on a regular basis, like they do with SCAT concussion. 

I believe they do do doping testing randomly, as well as the scheduled http://youtu.be/ELgXBX5dLlU" rel="nofollow - Whereabouts tests that I’ve heard Foxy mention (~36mins).

I think it’s rife in schools and semi-pro. Because exactly what you say, for the individual it’s what’s gonna get you in the A team or the First XV. Very sadly a friend of mine at school died of a heart attack aged 18. A super-talented rugby player, but he had been taking fat burning pills he’d bought online from America.

What you say about how quick it goes out of the system is the worrying part


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