The Politics Thread.
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Topic: The Politics Thread.
Posted By: Guests
Subject: The Politics Thread.
Date Posted: 18 February 2023 at 7:53am
We have a number of threads about specific political stuff where we're often going off topic. I thought it might be a good idea to have a general thread where we can brawl *cough* discuss political stuff that comes up from day to day. Enter at your own risk 
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Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18 February 2023 at 7:59am
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Anyways, first up is an interesting project I've seen at www.demos.co.uk - otherwise known as "The Good Web project". It's a response to the way in which disinformation permeates the web and skews public discourse. Here's their proposal: https://demos.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Good-web-1.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://demos.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Good-web-1.pdf Here's an article about it: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/17/web-blade-runner-lies-misinformation-internet" rel="nofollow - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/17/web-blade-runner-lies-misinformation-internet I'm not sure if fellow SF'ers have heard of Mastadon (a community run based alternative to Twitter) but that's the kind of model that fits this description reasonably well.
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Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 18 February 2023 at 8:22am
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I believe certain people , especially the far right inclined individuals have taken a steal on this ....The more centrist person have not really taken advantage of the modern age of cyberspace... It was interesting this week that it turned out the Israel had been responsible with interfering in other countries election and that north Korea had been responsible for the collapse and embezzlement of crypto coin. Mastodon is a step in the right direction as there is no central data base of held info , by having servers dispersed around the world I presume that it is difficult to control everything people hear and see ....but is that true or am I being dillusional and nieve
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18 February 2023 at 10:52pm
I think it's not bad but it's still small despite the recent growth. The Web is one of those things that is like weapons. You can only regulate via international agreement and cooperation. But one bad actor can undermine any progress on that front. Anonymity is at the heart of this. It's a tough one. Anonymity is essential for those living under oppressive regimes. But in democratic countries it allows for nasty online behaviour and the spread of bots. I like what the Good Web Project says about having a way of verifying you are who you say you are online - particularly for any accounts with a political purpose. When I was a teenager, I recall having lessons about the reliability of the sources of information we used. Having a means of verifying political accounts/sites would go a long way to help discern what bias and/or validity the content published by them has.
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Oracle wrote:Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 18 February 2023 at 10:57pm
| To a point , the real major issue is when the miss information is populated by states , who can operate outside international control like NK and Russia or states with major control over big players like the control that Israel has over America and inturn the control that America has over Europe |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18 February 2023 at 11:07pm
| I'm not sure Israel exerts control over the US - a powerful lobby group certainly. Certainly true that Europe won't even sneeze (in terms of geopolitics) unless the US is on board. Certainly true that we have bad actors out there such as Russia ... but then there are plenty of misinformation merchants hosted by the West - Breitbart, Alex Jones, Guido Fawkes etc. State vs Capital in a very simplistic sense. |
Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 18 February 2023 at 11:25pm
| I personally believe that Israel is a major player in the world order , strategically in a very volatile part of the world , yet friends with Saudi ...They are a very technically astute country ...but without the backing of American money none of their international power would exist .....Things have changed in the last 6 to 20 years , where players on the far right seem to all be very coordinated right across the globe |
Posted By: Kentexile
Date Posted: 18 February 2023 at 11:27pm
| When I was a student decades ago a guy on my course was a mature student who had served in the navy and was badly injured in the Suez crisis. He realised then that most UK mainstream news outlets lacked something as they were reporting no British casualties when his friends had been killed and he had loads of tubes sticking out of him in a hospital bed .He always stressed the importance of checking information across as many national and international sources as possible to get to something close to the truth.The irony now is we have access to more information than ever before but the way news and other feeds work is they provide a stream of information which accords with the recipients declared interests and just reinforces their view of the world however narrow that may be. |
Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 18 February 2023 at 11:30pm
| 1984 and Oceania comes to mind |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18 February 2023 at 11:58pm
Massive problem - confirmation bias.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19 February 2023 at 12:00am
A key part of US geopolitical strategy - agree with that, certainly. The extreme right wing government formed there recently is hugely concerning.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19 February 2023 at 12:01am
| This could be interesting: https://the-citizens.com/2023/01/new-citizens-podcast-series-to-expose-truth-behind-russia-report-cover-up/" rel="nofollow - https://the-citizens.com/2023/01/new-citizens-podcast-series-to-expose-truth-behind-russia-report-cover-up/ |
Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 21 February 2023 at 11:40am
| Only reading brief excerpts on a western-biased source admittedly, but what on earth is Putin on about? Honestly, read some of the things he is saying and it's deranged. He is literally accusing the west of starting the war amongst some frankly weird other things. It's so hard to imagine a peaceful resolution in Ukraine with him in charge of Russia, which is so depressing. And then he pulls out of a nuclear arms treaty with the US which is even more worrying. |
Posted By: lofty evans
Date Posted: 21 February 2023 at 11:56am
He is Trumpesq living on another planet..the audience looked bored and fed up tbh. ------------- In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty" "All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us" |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21 February 2023 at 12:34pm
| I wonder how long he can hold on to power as the casualties mount? |
Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 21 February 2023 at 12:49pm
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https://twitter.com/CounsellingSam/status/1627361386429878273?t=Yf5T-O6aCGS0QuPx7dV79w&s=19
I wonder what caused this
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Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 21 February 2023 at 12:50pm
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https://twitter.com/CounsellingSam/status/1627361386429878273?t=rPMtTwiN0s7lLKLiU0YAgw&s=19%20" rel="nofollow - https://twitter.com/CounsellingSam/status/1627361386429878273?t=rPMtTwiN0s7lLKLiU0YAgw&s=19
https://twitter.com/CounsellingSam/status/1627361386429878273?t=rPMtTwiN0s7lLKLiU0YAgw&s=19" rel="nofollow - https://twitter.com/CounsellingSam/status/1627361386429878273?t=rPMtTwiN0s7lLKLiU0YAgw&s=19
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22 February 2023 at 7:48pm
| Johnson's legal expenses for the partygate enquiry to be covered by the taxpayer. |
Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 22 February 2023 at 7:51pm
| What is wrong with all of us , why are we not rioting |
Posted By: greypower1
Date Posted: 22 February 2023 at 8:00pm
After you Claud. ------------- Keep the faith |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22 February 2023 at 8:05pm
You allowed to say the b word yet? Although blundering incompetence by government would fit the bill too. We are truly living in Gramsci's interregnum.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22 February 2023 at 8:07pm
Because most people have no idea how they're being governed and the minority who do have lost all hope or are complicit.
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Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 22 February 2023 at 8:13pm
Sadly our own politicians are in lala land too 54% council tax increase in Llanelli ? ------------- ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER) |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22 February 2023 at 8:16pm
Where did you see that Roy? Council Tax rises are capped normally.
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Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 22 February 2023 at 8:22pm
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https://www.inyourarea.co.uk/news/llanelli-ratepayers-facing-highest-council-tax-increase-across-carmarthenshire/" rel="nofollow - https://www.inyourarea.co.uk/news/llanelli-ratepayers-facing-highest-council-tax-increase-across-carmarthenshire/ ------------- ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER) |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22 February 2023 at 8:28pm
| Just read your link Roy. That is a significant rise. I know Dai Darkin. Academically bright ... absolutely no common sense whatsoever. Looks like there's some political posturing going on here as well looking at the article. The real reason for these cash shortages is the miserable settlement Westminster provides for local govt that we inherit via the Barnett formula. I've said it before ... the UK pays around 7% less of its GDP in tax than the average EU country. In cash terms that's £150Bn a year. That's tax that should be paid by those who can most afford it. Instead, cash starved councils are having to raise their tax which will disproportionately affect the less wealthy. Just for context, whilst wages stagnated since 2008, the wealth of the UK's billionaires has grown massively. That's our problem. |
Posted By: hoppy
Date Posted: 22 February 2023 at 8:32pm
| Absolute scandalous that Boris Johnson case is being fuñded by tax payers after all the money he has made from these speeches shows the system stinks in this country when ordinary people are struggling |
Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 22 February 2023 at 8:40pm
| 6.8% in Carmarthenshire surely not 54% |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22 February 2023 at 8:41pm
It's the town council part of the tax not the county. They county is normally capped. I thought the town tax was too.
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Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 22 February 2023 at 8:50pm
Sadly not
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22 February 2023 at 8:54pm
| Just done the maths - it amounts to an extra £5 a month on our council tax bill. |
Posted By: Sir Duckling Tuft
Date Posted: 22 February 2023 at 9:28pm
Can you show us the breakdown pls
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22 February 2023 at 9:39pm
It's in the article. It amounts to an extra £57 a year on the overall council tax bill.
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Posted By: Sir Duckling Tuft
Date Posted: 22 February 2023 at 10:42pm
? amount that Llanelli Town Council will take from its ratepayers will rise from £943,717 to £1,450,000 in the next financial year 2023/24. That means a Band D property will see their contribution to Llanelli Town Council rise from £106.26 to £163.55, which is a £57.29 hike for tax payers...that's per month |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 7:37am
| No, that's a year. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 7:48am
| If the total budget for the town council comes to £1.5M for the year ... and there are around 10k c.tax paying households in the town (give or take) ... I think you've misread. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 8:25am
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64739371" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64739371
As much as I'm looking forward to the end of the current UK "government" I don't have any great expectations of the next. This is pretty plain vanilla stuff again from Starmer. He just seems to have this take which is "vote for us, we're the good guys." The ship is sinking my friend. What's the plan?
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Posted By: Sir Duckling Tuft
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 8:55am
54% is disgraceful
------------- sir duckling tuft |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 9:14am
| Because the town council tax is a small part of the overall council tax bill ... like the police component. You appear confused? Check it again. It actually says in the parts you're quoting that the total is for the year. |
Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 10:05am
From my understanding TBS you are spot on. We are in the Carms., CC catchment for council tax & added to the overall majority amount which is set for the property band ( which is for everyone throughout the county) is added specific much smaller amounts for local councils - mine being the LLanybydder parish I think. That is the amount of £50+ being added per annum for the Llanelli T.C. Most county councils in Wales are going to raise council taxes by 5% to pay for the ever increasing social care budget. We all need to understand that if we want big ticket improvements in health & social services we have to pay. Your point with regards to overall tax levels within the UK compared to other European countries which amounts to £150 billion per year is spot on & should be the stated aim of the next government.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 10:17am
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Posted By: scarletpimp
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 10:29am
Both TBS and GPR are spot on. Our society is creaking at the seams. I have said before on a previous post ,I would give the public the OPTION, through a ballot, whether to pay a fixed levy for frontline NHS care, based on they can afford to pay Ringfenced for that purpose ONLY. It tough times economically, ATM , when some cannot afford to heat homes. The last thing I would do , is force an unwelcome tax on people , whichever it happens. If however ,you have been ,like myself, in an ambulance, for hours , and hours outside a manic A& E, when your dearest and dearest (In this my wife). was critically ill, maybe the public will think hard. We cannot go on like this as GPR has eloquently put it, and we have to make hard choices. I remember the utter desperation and sheer helplessness I felt at the time. Not something I wish for anyone, but so many have "been to this place", like me. ------------- I stood yer on tanner bank |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 10:29am
| Thanks GPR. Just posted an image of a fairly recent bill I had. Hopefully that provides clarity. That point on the UK's tax/GDP ratio should be front and centre of our political discourse right now (along with the shocking corruption and incompetence of government) but it's not. The powers that be would far rather we all get animated by "culture wars" and whatever other chaff they put out there. The real issue is that the wealthy few are getting wealthier whilst the rest are going backwards. And it's not an accident or some quirk or inevitability of economics. It's a consequence of policy. |
Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 10:36am
Of course its a consequence of policy. We can all argue the rights & wrongs of the B word ( I am mindful that there are those among us who are fighting their own B battle at the moment so using the full word seems disrespectful) but I don't think any of us could argue that since that decision the policy & governance in the GB has been of the worst kind certainly in my living memory. I fully understand that tax is a dirty word - direct or indirect - but thoughtfully done making those with the broadest shoulders carry the biggest burden whilst others still contribute is the only way for us fix the wrongs in our society. Labour will never have a better chance to prove to the electorate that tax can be the correct policy thoughtfully conceived and carefully spent.
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Posted By: scarletpimp
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 11:53am
Will be interesting to hear Starmers pledges. Creating a stable economy, with investment, as a clear target for growth, is top of the agenda. Not far behind surely, should the growth of a green energy policy, Creating jobs in the process. We at a crossroads on this planet. Future generations will despise us , unless we start getting it right. I totally get what Totallybiasedscarlet, says above,regarding ' vanilla starmer ", BUT,his main task ATM is to win. To do that , he clearly has to inspire, but also doesn't have to say too much into much detail yet. Do'nt underestimate the task which faces him and of course facing the Tory press, who will pounce on every opportunity they can. If this was a boxing match, I would say to Starmer, just keep your distance, keep jabbing, your winning on points , so no need to go for knock out blow yet. You can learn so much from the well intentioned, but naive mistakes Corbyn make. Sometimes, not saying too much, is better.  ------------- I stood yer on tanner bank |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 12:03pm
When it comes to the B- word, it may surprise you to know that I was on the fence for a long time. There was this narrative on the Left that Corbyn became symbolic of, but stretched back to Benn and others, that the EU had become a largely neo-liberal structure and that our membership prevented the UK from pursuing socialist policies such as nationalisation of industries etc. I've a degree of sympathy with the point of view insofar as there's a cogent rationale even if I'm not 100% on board with the premise. Then there were the arguments about the (un)democratic nature of the commission. Again, there was fair criticism but once more, I couldn't get on board with the premise. I never agreed with the economic arguments but what did it for me was the exceptionalism, a sort of hangover of a different era - Britannia rules the waves jingoism. I accept that wasn't everyone's take but here's where I got swayed to vote remain. I looked at Farage and Rees-Mogg, Gove and Johnson, Redwood et al. I looked at their arguments and I came to the conclusion that they were a mix of British nationalism and self-interest. I'd trust that mob about as far as I can throw them and since they were championing leaving the EU I figured they had some hopeless mal-intent behind it. For me, Brexit is tied up with the Tories almost entirely. It was a consequence of their internal strife and it was their people who were the big drivers behind it. That their governance of the UK is wholly inept is very much linked. It's about their vision for Britain and I can sum it up like this ... One singular British Nation, English in character, low tax, small state and a place to make a handsome profit. I just find it an anathema wrt my own values. In their attempts to impose this vision of theirs (via a minority vote it should be noted) they've inflicted the worst of their characters on us and given us corruption, poverty and dysfunction. I hope that explains why I dislike Brexit. I never believed that there was a viable alternative constitutional and economic offering on the table. You've often made the point that one is perfectly possible and to an extent I agree. It's just that it was never really on the cards and I was suspicious about what was. I think the shower at Westminster have proven my suspicions to be right. But there we are, it's a personal judgement in the end.
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Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 12:04pm
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I agree , the less starmer says the better , I honestly believe that it's not Tory party we have to worry about , it's the press . People often don't care about parliament, but the influence of the press is enormous, it's not just the traditional right wing papers , Even the BBC and ITV are tainted and will not say a truthfull story ...They are fully controlled by the government's planted right wing supporters as governors and CEOs of these company ...Russian state TV is now no different to our BBC .. So what will starmer do first ... I really believe he has to make major changes to who is allowed to own the papers TV and press ...Murdoc has been a major influence in the UK and USA .....without making major change on this front , he will have no chance ....it takes me back when Tony Blair's first run up to power ...He mad piece with the sun , which inturn had Blair on the front of the sun newspaper everyday , which I am sure contributed to him becoming pm
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 12:08pm
That is what a lot of more "progressive" folk in Labour are saying. "Just wait till we're in government, all will be well". I guess I'm just frustrated. I want Britain to get on with the job of fixing/replacing all the broken and dysfunctional components of the State. I guess at the end of the day we all want better government. We'll talk more about this soon SP
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Posted By: scarletpimp
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 12:23pm
Yes , can only change things if you win. Tories are experts as deception, so we must learn. ------------- I stood yer on tanner bank |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 12:27pm
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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/food-shortages-supermarkets-jobs-coffey-b2288054.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/food-shortages-supermarkets-jobs-coffey-b2288054.html
In the meantime in Tory Britain, the environment secretary tells working people who find themselves in such poverty that they can't afford food to work longer hours. A social contract torn to shreds. Families with two working parents should be able to afford to live a decent life. These Tories genuinely are scumbags.
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Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 2:13pm
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Tesco's had a sign on their empty fruit and veg stating it was due to poor weather conditions ...Anyway after a lot of shouting the manager came down and I made him take the sign down or alter it to include the B word ....He was quite pompous , do I took his picture and told him that I would post it on twitter with his lying excuses The long and short , I had to leave so I then went 5 miles up the valley to Asda , and guess what ....The same sign is on the fruit and veg .....so I went in bought the items I needed , then demanded to see the manager ....same crap , do I went through the same process...but at least I bought the products that were needed for the weekend I wasnt going to say anything but I am totally pissed off with all of the lies , and I thought enough is enough
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 2:21pm
Take a marker pen with you next time
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Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 4:39pm
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Brexit is responsible for bad weather in tomato growing nations?? Anyhow just grow your own
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Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 4:48pm
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Green tomatoes..great song
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Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 4:49pm
I know rookie mistake
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 5:05pm
Nice edit
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 6:49pm
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https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/keir-starmer-five-missions-speech-rishi-sunak-b2288229.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/keir-starmer-five-missions-speech-rishi-sunak-b2288229.html
A very tongue in cheek opinion piece for the most part ... but a very good conclusion I thought. Very different views from Crace and Toynbee in the Guardian though.
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Posted By: hoppy
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 7:12pm
| Question time tonight from Cardiff will be interesting to heàr Welsh public give their views on everything going on |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 7:29pm
Didn't know it was Cardiff tonight. Dang. I'd love to get on QT and ask a question. I know exactly what I'd ask.
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Posted By: scarletpimp
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 9:08pm
Sorry, a very poor conclusion. Tom Peck , a serious journalist..my arse! What's he expect Starmer to do, a year away from an election... do backwards somersaults? At this stage,he's doing all he needs to do, and keep it that. The way I view things simply is this. We the ordinary ' little people, who have worked all our lives. Paid our NI contributions, been good citizens (mostly), supported those in need, accepted what the failing NHS is manfully trying to do with you, without complaining tooo much. And what are faced by...the establishment..headed by the Tory party Their friends, including oligarchs, ahd other crooks,some so wealthy they do'nt even know how much they have.We then have the landed gentry, some of whom trundling in to the House of Lords, if they can stay awake. Some of these people own over three quarters or the land in the UK. Who are the defenders of this motley crew..none other than tye Great Grithish Press of course. The Sun, the vilifier of the miners and innocent Liverpool football fans at Hillsborough, and phone tapping of people's phones including tye rapidly of Millie Dowler. The Dailer Mail, a publication so reactionary, it names Norman Tebitt look like Corbyn. I need not go on This bunch of scum, want to maintain the status quo, and keep the Tories in power, so they continue conning the public, and ruling with such arrogance, that Johnnson can break the law ahd Truss can destroy our economy, but there no real apology! Worst of all we have the arrogance of people like Cameron and Osborne, who at the time of austerity, expect the poorest and most disadvantaged, proportionally, to carry the burden. There were benefit cuts, of course, but no real talk of a mansion tax for the rich, who have more more money than most of us , in ten future lifetimes never mind this one. To get up to speed with arrogance, we can only look at bastards like the new Tory deputy chairman , who loves a good hanging and the thinks that those who use foodbanks should do budget better,and cook fresh food.Come to Llanelli, my friend, and see the people forced to used foodbanks now, its a sad reality of where Weare in society . It's worrying to think that a lot of the public are conned by these people, but they are. Professional liars like Johnson see to that, supported, by the media. So facing this assorted alliance of Tories landowners, wealthy, media moguls ,self satisfied back slapping company directors and bankers are we the public, the little men and women. We have the audacity to question corruption, decadence, cronyism, unequivocal unequality, racism, misogyny, better pay and working conditions, the right to take industrial action,and to fight for a better society for...HOW DARE WE ?.? We shelter behind a fragile shield wall, like the one our forefathers fought to standstill behind. But that shield Wall is fragile, and is breaking, fractured beyond repair in parts.Those most vulnerable sheltering behind the wall are ravaged by the ills that now faces them, with no where to hide. The mechanisms, there once to protect them are slowly disintegrating . Society as we once knew it, almost vaporised. In the not too distant future the forces of entitlement, greed, and corruption, will hit our shield wall again, with all the force it can muster. It will will do so, to maintain the status quo and to retain power,for the few, and to maintain therefore the misery of the many. What I say is this, we must stay strong , link arms in the shield wall, and FIGHT. To lose would be catastrophic, bearing in mind all that has happened in our recent past. We do this not just for ourselves, and our children but for their children too. Whatever our disparate views, whatever our differences ,time to unite. If Starmer doesn't say too in too much detail ATM , fine by me, keep your powder dry, the fight will be with soon enough, and FiGHT we must, its one we cannot afford to lose ------------- I stood yer on tanner bank |
Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 10:11pm
Awesome post .....
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Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 10:29pm
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 10:57pm
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Agree with you on a great number of matters SP but I agree with Peck's closing remarks and I'll explain why. Which is not to say they’re not deliverable. Underestimating Keir Starmer is a big mistake, made all too often. He’s not where he is, in every respect, by accident. In some of his recent speeches he’s spoken about being weary of how Westminster works. That it’s all talk, and no one actually does anything. He is clearly an executive-minded person; the days of government-by-columnist are, pleasingly, over. He had made enormous progress, but the next phase is by far the hardest. He still has to talk his way in to 10 Downing Street, via the voters’ affections; and he’s still got a long way to go to get there. We're a year out from a GE. I can't see the Tories getting in now. Yet a great deal of support for Labour is by default, a case of they're the next taxi off the rank. Peck is making the point here that voters may not have great affection for Labour ... and it's a fair point. Many like you are saying that Labour's right to keep it's powder dry ... but it's not entirely true that they have. For example they went into quite a bit of detail about the future of the UK via Gordon Brown's constitutional review. I was personally massively disappointed by it. In other aspects he's dismissed really important stuff. He was interviewed by Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart for their podcast. They asked him about the way that Johnson abused the "good chaps" model of Parliamentary convention and if constitutional reforms were necessary to prevent this from happening. Starmer's response was basically to say that Labour were the "good chaps" the UK needs and that no reform was really needed. Again, I was hugely disappointed. I get that Labour are in election mode and don't want to give away policy so as to give the Tories a head start on them, but their pronouncements have left me cold. Grud yes, I want the Tories out and right now the only answer to that is for England to return a Labour majority. But this is where I agree with Peck - I've no great affection for Labour. I don't feel happy with the "vote for us, we'll do progressive stuff" approach. I don't find it reassuring. The state Britain is in is absolutely dreadful. "Trust us, we're the good guys" doesn't cut it for me. Right now "we're not the Tories" will be good enough but my goodness, there are seismic fractures running through the UK and folk all over Britain deserve a State that functions. I just wish I felt that there was some substance behind Labour. |
Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 23 February 2023 at 11:07pm
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Posted on wrong thread
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Posted By: scarletpimp
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 1:08am
Its clearly a case here of idealism versus pragmatism. To be honest , all the the ideas totallybiasedscarlet has ,at considerable time and length on here, I am quite interested in. Concentrating power in Westminster, post Brexit, without maybe passing all revenue streams to devolved administrations, that have might otherwise gone to Europe, does not stack up. I am for an increased authority, legislative, and otherwise, in the Senedd, and further down the line a review of how the UK would work as a confederation of states. That's for then, and this is for now. Starmer has a fine line to tread. Last election, there was a forum of voters in Bristol who were questioned of their concerns. The obvious economy and NHS surfaced, as at that time Brexit. What also featured , was the clear irritation from ENGLISH voters , that Nicola sturgeon could hold the balance of power and call the shots to a possible Corbyn government What would not go down well with them was Corbyn , buying her off with cheap political sweeteners regarding referendum etc. Its almost the same with Brexit, with so many Labour votes voting Leave in red Wall seats. They wanted to be listened too, and thought they were not, at the last election. Personally, I would want the UK to re-negotiate some terms with ,or the free trade agreement, or the level playing field agreement, currently undermined by Sunak . Further down the line negotiate re-entry in to the customs union, which would solve NI problems. That's my own opinion, but rightly Starmer has parked a lot of the discussion, which caused so much Angst for so long. Starmer is no orator , with personality that be described as un charismatic. I am sure there will be many things that will come from Labour proving forward in terms of detail. Most certainly the five major points he made today were a in artistic terms "a rough sketch". As I have said in previous post , he does not need to put in detail now and give Tories free points scoring. Finally, I will say this Starmer , may not be everyone's cup of tea, even mine, but he MUST get credit from transforming the Labour party ,a party divided by racism and anti Semitism, and a total organisational mess under Jeremy Corbyn. Capturing the mood of the nation is the next step, and as others have rightly said, its not enough to say "we are the good guys", or "vote for us we re' not Tories. You have to connect, you have to energise, and most of all give hope. To do that effectively you also need need to ensure that there are no distractions which blur your core messages. The Tory lackies just wait for these opportunities and explode them in the media, so you end up defensively, defending thins you don't want to defend, instead of talking about things you really want to talk about. This is a really issue bearing in mind the media bias we are currently facing and have always faced historically. Starmer, generally speaking is playing it fine, and needs to continue to do much of the same for now. Labour have have always been "softer" than than the Tories, who's "say anything " mentality has won them election after election. As I have said earlier, it sometimes pays , not to say a lot. Pragmatism , over idealism, maybe, but there is so much at stake here now. Its not just the the future of NHS, the economy, the clean energy programme, justice and job creation, but it is the lives of so many that are totally intertwined with these issues that is important. These people face a cataclysmic disaster if Starmer fails ------------- I stood yer on tanner bank |
Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 7:35am
I agree with you Pimp - to a point. Starmer, so far, can rely on the Tories not getting their act together. Slowly but surely he is introducing his agenda/policies - again sensible thinking. However as the next election gets nearer he has to take the gloves off - for goodness sake his advisers must have so much evidence of downright corruption & profiteering by Tory scum that an offensive, timed correctly, by his in house rottweiler should pave the way for a successful campaign. I vote for TBS as a candidate for the rottweiler.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 8:21am
| Good points SP & GPR (sorry, SP - don't know why I read Lofty on your reply to me). What you touch on towards the end is really about how the Tories are so deeply ingrained, how it is they dominate electorally. There is a way forward to unravel their built in advantages ... but Starmer has ruled some key parts out e.g PR, federalism, written constitution. And therein lies my frustration. Perhaps I'm too impatient but I really want to know what Labour has in mind for their (highly likely) term in government. I think that we're at a critical juncture in British history. Whatever our opinion on Brexit, there's no doubt that it was an historic event. The UK State is creaking if not splintering with internal tensions not least of which is the crippling economic inequalities it has inflicted on the nations and regions of these isles. Westminster must bear the brunt of criticism for this. I'm thankful that Starmer has in fact identified many of these problems and issues. But I am impatient for the solutions. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 8:41am
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https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/23/revealed-scale-of-forever-chemical-pollution-across-uk-and-europe" rel="nofollow - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/23/revealed-scale-of-forever-chemical-pollution-across-uk-and-europe
Another article about PFAS. These things are nasty. Another symptom of a broken system. I always find it interesting how we see "the working class" pitched against "capitalism" as the great fight of the industrial era. I also find it interesting how the right think they have a monopoly on "capitalism" and exclusive ownership of Adam Smith's legacy. It's strange because Marxism is a capitalist theory too. It just proposes a different model of ownership. And Adam Smith would likely be aghast at the modern model of capitalism. In his seminal work he warns against oligarchies and monopolies. His theory is of a market of many small players all in competition. He talks of the necessity of investing in "public good". Further we should consider what is known as the "tragedy of the commons" - when our environment is degraded to the point it adversely affects human activity. To me capitalism is a description of a model of ownership and trade. It can be done well. It can be done badly. I think all the signs are there that we're doing things badly right now and have done for some time.
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Posted By: lofty evans
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 8:57am
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Some great posts on this thread... ------------- In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty" "All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us" |
Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 9:01am
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Communisum is great , if you don’t want freedom of religion, secuality, ability to protest and don’t want to live in poverty all your life
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Posted By: Kentexile
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 9:22am
| Whether it is capitalism, communism or any other system it will invariably be created in the image of and work to the benefit of whoever controls it. |
Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 9:41am
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 11:03am
That's authoratarianism not communism - yes I know, the two things can coexist. Did so in Soviet Russia obviously. On the other end of the specrum you have Thatcher's ridiculous statement "no such thing as society". I don't know why people think everything has to be so polarised, so black and white? It seems obvious to me that the common good and the rights and responsibilities of individuals should be held in balance? Communalism - good thing when we work to gether for common cause. Individual human rights - good thing that people have the freedom to live the (legal) life they choose. But I see folk almost spitting at one idea or the other. Ok, that is the extreme Left/Right to be fair but it is wrecking me how polarised public discourse has become. Where are the moderates!?!
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Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 11:38am
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Posted By: lofty evans
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 2:22pm
Karl Marx and his ideals where fair, what spoils everything are humans .... ------------- In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty" "All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us" |
Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 2:44pm
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Glad to see the Welsh assembly get a slating on question time last night for their frankly insane abdication of their national welsh road strategy ------------- ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER) |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 4:52pm
I still think you're mainly describing authoratarianism. The states you described sometimes conflate these things and yes, there are enormous problems with each and every one of them. Mind you, I find the label "communist" doesn't fit China very well at all. "One-party capitalist dictatorship" might be better nowdays? What none of those countries are is democratic. Have we ever seen communism at work in a democracy? I don't believe so. The two concepts are by no means antithetical. We can say that Marxism inspired Mao, Castro and Lenin certainly. Was Stalin a Marxist? Not sure really. He was a b*****d without a shadow of a doubt. But by and large there we're dealing with authoratarians and dictators. I get it is not easy to look at communism without the weight of those countries influencing our views but I don't believe that concepts of communality in the state are without merit. But here's the big thing for me. When people become diehard communists/socialists/liberals/progressives/greens/conservatives/libertarians and can only think in the specific terms of their political philosophy, I just can't go along with it. It's funny - I'd describe my politics as liberal/green/social democratic. But I can't stand dogmatic adherence and rallying to the flag type tribal politics. This is why my better half encouraged *cough* me to get off Twitter
. I really did try to be reasonable but it's not a good place for nuance. It's keyboard warrior country. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 4:59pm
Senedd or Welsh Government Roy come on now I get why we can't just go building roads willy nilly. And it's not a complete moratorium on building roads. There's still 14 had the go ahead. The rest have to go back to consultation based on a new set of criteria that they do not raise CO2 emissions. There remains a budget to maintain and adapt existing roads. What was frankly insane, was that the WG have cut bus services to some areas! There is a reasonable point that we must get to grips with our carbon emissions, but give people viable alternatives. My take on the whole thing was, Ok, so we need to cut car use ... what's the strategy? And that's what I'd still like to know.
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Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 5:12pm
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Posted By: Sir Duckling Tuft
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 5:12pm
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The labour mp was asked 6 times is this a bad decision that will hurt the welsh economy,6 times she didnt answer and changed the subject....Totally disingenuous and frankly pathetic There was over £100 million spent on the relief roads investigation which was all wasted too...Now therell be more delays more congestion, more pot holes more pollution and remote areas even more cut off and isolated....Labour have totally lost the plot on this and many issues in wales. They need to get back to reality. we need infinitely better roads and relief roads and one connecting the north and south....we also need a proper airport run privately and a massive all encompassing long term plan and strategy to rebuild town centres and help small medium businesses rather than cow tow to the retaila and corporate giants , who pay far less to the treasury per head than sme's
------------- sir duckling tuft |
Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 5:31pm
| Angry aggain |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 5:42pm
She didn't answer it because she's not a Welsh MP and appeared not to have been briefed. I don't understand why she was on there. To be fair Lee Waters is the main man on this one and has fronted up and answered the criticisms - whether we agree with him or not.
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Posted By: Sir Duckling Tuft
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 5:45pm
She avoided it completely, it was pathetic, incompetent bordering on dishonesty waters needs to come out of hiding and get cross examined on his destruction of llanellis roads and now the nations ------------- sir duckling tuft |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 5:47pm
He's been on Wales today explaining it mun
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Posted By: Sir Duckling Tuft
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 5:54pm
he needs to be grilled like a kebab, his decisions in llanelli and wales are disgraceful as for question time, fiona bruce has got a really annoying habit of interrupting at the wrong times and letting them ramble on at other times such as this...why did she allow this labour mp to avoid the same question 5 or 6 times but then interrupt another answer on the same question to ramble on about irrevelant stuff? it was awful stewardship from bruce ------------- sir duckling tuft |
Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 6:04pm
| His dad worked for me what a **** |
Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 9:13pm
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Fiona Bruce husband has got a multi million pound contract with the Tory government....she has only been promoted to hosting a programme like question time because she follows the rules set by the Tory enablers controlling the corporation I would have thought you would have known that or am I giving you to much credit
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Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 9:32pm
------------- In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 10:37pm
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-64755718" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-64755718
This is a small example of the sort of plans I was hoping to see. The answer to our roads problem is to give people other travel options and have fewer cars on the roads.
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Posted By: scarletpimp
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 10:46pm
Totallybiasedscarlet has very Good points here. We need to improve our infrastructure in Wales, to ensure that there is inward investment, and obviously, with any decision there are anomalies, of of those being an alternative crossing to Ynys Mon,HOWEVR, at some stage someone has to draw a line in the sand and say ' enough is enough '. Any protesting about new roads, and thatscwhat we are talking about here, ripping up our small beautiful country, increasing reliant on tourism , for yet more creators Co2? Electric cars and the infrastructure to support them, are still way off in the UK, so much so that we construction and investment move from UK to the US. Has anyone ranting about roads actually watched ANY of the David Attenborough series? Out wonderful planet that supports us, is disintegrating in front of our eyes.Glodal warming is not just a threat, its somthing which is affecting lives of so many people across the world, as we speak. Extremes of weather, drought, flash floods ( just look at Pakistan.), poverty, and homeless, all by products.Alsonwhat about the millions of species we share this planet with, many of whom are now facing extinction, due to habitat. At some stage politicians need to make hard decisions, and this new roadbuild is one. Totallybiasedscarlet is correct the WG do need a serous review of public transport infrastructure, particularly in rural areas. Existing roads and maintenance is not under threat, so we must ensure that that' kept to the standard required.. Upgrades on existing highways, as also under review and can be improved.. We all have to some sacrifices however,for the greater good.and if that means taking longer on an existing route so be it. We owe it to our children and their children, that our legacy is not a world destroyed by selfishness, so the environment we cherish is harmed irreparably. History will judge us otherwise as a society , so obsessed with self intrests, it cannot see the bigger picture. ------------- I stood yer on tanner bank |
Posted By: lofty evans
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 10:47pm
From the heart Pimp...excellent. ------------- In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty" "All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us" |
Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 10:56pm
He's Nigel sharrocks ....PR guru for Boris Johnson...
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 11:33pm
Wholeheartedly agree. The Right are trying to pitch this as something it's not. I'm sick of their Orwellian distraction tactics now. Glad to see the Newport plan. Hope to see this approach scaled up and make some serious headway into reducing the amount of traffic on the roads. This image speaks volumes: https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/aE16W0e_700b.jpg" rel="nofollow - https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/aE16W0e_700b.jpg  |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24 February 2023 at 11:47pm
| Now that's quite timely. Just watching the BBC News special about air pollution. Clip of Arnold Swartzenegger talking to a conference quoting a figure of 7 million deaths a year worldwide owing to air pollution. Let's not build roads as a first option. Let's build better ways of travelling instead. |
Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 25 February 2023 at 7:08am
| That m4 from cardiff through brynglas tunnell is a nightmare espec on a friday we certainly need a relief road regardless of what the wa say. Intrestingly they are being accused of “green washing” as they simply don’t have the finances to do these large scale road projects and this green issue is just an excuse. Any thoughts on this claim? |
Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 25 February 2023 at 7:27am
Well the £5 billion we lost to pay for high speed 2 would have helped I have no doubt.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25 February 2023 at 9:22am
It is a nightmare and I would imagine that improvements to the M4 or the surrounding roads around Newport that allows the traffic to move more freely and reduce emissions would meet the criteria. Ultimately we're trying to jam too much traffic through. I don't believe for a second that they're "greenwashing" (a phrase which actually means something quite different). It would fly in the face of the general direction of a number of other pieces of legislation the WG have brought in over the years. We can't just keep pouring more and more asphalt only to see more and more traffic on the roads. Isn't doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result the definition of insanity? Waters said that money would continue to be spent on the roads. What has changed is that a new set of criteria has come in to make sure CO2 emissions are not increased by any new project. So I don't believe that it's a money issue.
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Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 25 February 2023 at 10:13am
| I do think your giving the wa very much the benefit of doubt on this which is fair enough considering you are clearly left leaning with a green point of view, better roads imo would help the issue. As would better and cheaper oublic transport (a valid point you raise) |
Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 25 February 2023 at 10:53am
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Didn't we have massive development of roads in Wales , payed for by the European Union....I wonder what happened to that investment...of course it was B***** Nearly said it
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Posted By: scarletpimp
Date Posted: 25 February 2023 at 10:55am
I totally get RR's frustration, we have all been there,and it is'nt great. Totallybiasedscarlet, as usual makes really valid points indicated above. While improvement has to be made on existing routes, what happens next is critical. Tearing vast tracks of Wales, is not the answer,whatever our frustrations. I have a cousin, married to a farmer in mid who is petrified about any future roadbuild that would destroy large tracks of his land he has cultivated for half a century, apart from the adverse affect on tourism . Regarding better public transport links GPR is correct to flag up the reneging on promises for HS2. This typical lack of vision and investment from the Tories, is also evident in them turning their back on the possible Swansea gay barrage,and the green energy, it would have produced, plus jobs. All I would gave needed, was a set of guarantees, to offset any environmental consensus such as habitat Loss for wildlife in that area. End of the day, as indicated in a previous post, we are lucky to live in a small beautiful country ,we are all proud of. It was scarred for years , with industrial exploitation, which employed most of my family, now ,even though jobs are scarce,its almost we have re-claimed the land It is our duty to look after it ,and not only that , take in the bigger picture, and the responsibility we have on a global scale. Little things matter, even down tomnot buying plastic bag, anymore. We all know plastic gets in the food chain, and YET, supermarkets keep selling them, and people keep buying them. It's a case of saying "well global warming and environmental destruction is terrible "..but any steps to arrest it are fine "as long as it doesn't affect me". Well it affects us all, whether it's simple things like buying yet another plastic carrier bag, or building a new road. We all have to play our part. Personally, my wife and I walk more now, use the bus and the train regularly., but as totallybiasedscarlet has rightly said these are big issues for WAG to resolve and improve . ------------- I stood yer on tanner bank |