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Steward red card

Printed From: Scarlet Fever Llanelli Rugby Sport Wales Tickets
Category: RUGBY
Forum Name: GENERAL RUGBY
Forum Description: Other rugby chat
URL: https://scarletfever.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47224
Printed Date: 28 September 2023 at 2:54pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Steward red card
Posted By: lofty evans
Subject: Steward red card
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 12:15pm
Haven't seen the game but watched this......yellow for me. Thoughts.




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In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty"

"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"



Replies:
Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 12:33pm
Not a red. Not a yellow.

Trying to avoid impact and protect himself after an Irish knock on.

By all means apply the protocol re head contact to tackles but surely it’s complete nonsense to apply it to the circumstances of this incident and similar.


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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 12:43pm
Pure rugby incident.


Posted By: Seagultaf
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 12:57pm
Steward leaped into the air for some inexplicable reason when he was tacking a player who had just picked up a bouncing ball. He no arms shoulder charged him, hitting the tackled player directly in the head with considerable force resulting in him failing a head injury assessment. 
The only time I have seen anything similar on a rugby field not red carded was Tipuric on Johnny McNicholl the first game of this season.
If he had made an attempt to wrap his arms in the tackle, maybe he would have got away with a yellow, but he didn't, so a red was the only option.


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 1:08pm
Yellow but letter of the law yaddy yaddy ya a red. 


Posted By: EJPT
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 2:18pm
Shoulder or elbow to the head you are seeing red 


Posted By: Scarlet O'Hara
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 2:19pm
I dunno finding myself on the naughty step with The Oracle and now agreeing with SA14. It's been quite a week.


Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by Scarlet O'Hara Scarlet O'Hara wrote:

I dunno finding myself on the naughty step with The Oracle and now agreeing with SA14. It's been quite a week.
Big smileBig smileBig smile

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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: Why
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by Seagultaf Seagultaf wrote:

Steward leaped into the air for some inexplicable reason when he was tacking a player who had just picked up a bouncing ball. He no arms shoulder charged him, hitting the tackled player directly in the head with considerable force resulting in him failing a head injury assessment. 
The only time I have seen anything similar on a rugby field not red carded was Tipuric on Johnny McNicholl the first game of this season.
If he had made an attempt to wrap his arms in the tackle, maybe he would have got away with a yellow, but he didn't, so a red was the only option.
Tipuruc was clear red card the red card yesterday was a joke nothing he could have down to prevent the collision. 


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She asks why i still can't answer. I guess its in the blood.


Posted By: EJPT
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

Originally posted by Seagultaf Seagultaf wrote:

Steward leaped into the air for some inexplicable reason when he was tacking a player who had just picked up a bouncing ball. He no arms shoulder charged him, hitting the tackled player directly in the head with considerable force resulting in him failing a head injury assessment. 
The only time I have seen anything similar on a rugby field not red carded was Tipuric on Johnny McNicholl the first game of this season.
If he had made an attempt to wrap his arms in the tackle, maybe he would have got away with a yellow, but he didn't, so a red was the only option.
Tipuruc was clear red card the red card yesterday was a joke nothing he could have down to prevent the collision. 
Maybe not run into the other player. 

Edit: He’s a pro rugby player, they coach head to nearside hip from first contact sessions. It’s nobody’s fault but Stewards. He did nothing in that contact to mitigate despite it being accidental. Tough but fair treatment in my view. 


Posted By: Winston
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 5:35pm
A complete mockery.  No card for me.  But the Irish get it all.  They want to reduce injuries.  But the players are in the gym all week.  Pumping iron. They play all out for 50 minutes.  Reduce subs. Let’s go back to replacements for injury.  


Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 6:18pm
You could see steward brace his shoulder to go into the tackle ...red card all day ...was shown to be an ordinary full back yesterday not a great one 


Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 6:21pm
In my very humble opinion that's as nailed on a red as you're likely to see.

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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: Seagultaf
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by Why Why wrote:

Originally posted by Seagultaf Seagultaf wrote:

Steward leaped into the air for some inexplicable reason when he was tacking a player who had just picked up a bouncing ball. He no arms shoulder charged him, hitting the tackled player directly in the head with considerable force resulting in him failing a head injury assessment. 
The only time I have seen anything similar on a rugby field not red carded was Tipuric on Johnny McNicholl the first game of this season.
If he had made an attempt to wrap his arms in the tackle, maybe he would have got away with a yellow, but he didn't, so a red was the only option.
Tipuruc was clear red card the red card yesterday was a joke nothing he could have down to prevent the collision. 

Steward was not red carded for the colliding with Keenan, he was red carded for a no arms shoulder charge tackle direct to the head. He could certainly have mitigated the situation by at least attempting to wrap his arms in the tackle, that would have reduced the card to yellow at worse.


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 6:43pm
how could he have avoided the situation, he only had a micro second to react? Maybe Im being naive but I dont think he intended to hurt the player. It just looked like an unfortunate accident to my untrained eye. Yellow for me

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 6:55pm
Basically your nieve , as you posted


Posted By: Seagultaf
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

how could he have avoided the situation, he only had a micro second to react? Maybe Im being naive but I dont think he intended to hurt the player. It just looked like an unfortunate accident to my untrained eye. Yellow for me

Steward went into contact with the ball carrier leading with his shoulder and made no attempt to wrap his arms, which is against the Laws of the game. So maybe hitting Keenan in the head was accidental, but leading with his shoulder was not and once he made contact with the head, a red was inevitable.


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by Oracle Oracle wrote:

Basically your nieve , as you posted

whats your verdict on the card?


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 7:17pm
Originally posted by Seagultaf Seagultaf wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

how could he have avoided the situation, he only had a micro second to react? Maybe Im being naive but I dont think he intended to hurt the player. It just looked like an unfortunate accident to my untrained eye. Yellow for me

Steward went into contact with the ball carrier leading with his shoulder and made no attempt to wrap his arms, which is against the Laws of the game. So maybe hitting Keenan in the head was accidental, but leading with his shoulder was not and once he made contact with the head, a red was inevitable.

keenan hit his arm didnt he?


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: Why
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 7:42pm
Keenan did lead with his head Wink

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She asks why i still can't answer. I guess its in the blood.


Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by Oracle Oracle wrote:

Basically your nieve , as you posted

whats your verdict on the card?

The biggest out come is that my spelling is red card worthyLOL


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 8:11pm
Originally posted by Oracle Oracle wrote:

Originally posted by roy munster roy munster wrote:

Originally posted by Oracle Oracle wrote:

Basically your nieve , as you posted

whats your verdict on the card?

The biggest out come is that my spelling is red card worthyLOL

dont know what you mean?


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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 8:14pm
My earlier spelling 


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 8:25pm
Nah just a yellow one, reds too harshLOL

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ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)


Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 19 March 2023 at 8:39pm
Yes but it's a ripeat infringement LOL


Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 20 March 2023 at 4:08pm
All very split second, he turned to lead with his shoulder as the player was bending to pick up the ball. I've heard interviews with Steward and he's never mentioned being able to see into the future. The only way it wouldn't have been a red is if he was Halfpenny and it was a Scarlets game. 😂


Posted By: Legendinmybathroom
Date Posted: 20 March 2023 at 4:21pm
It was a red card as it was against the Irish, if it was the other way around, with Stewart knocking on and leading with his head into Keenan then it would have been a rugby incident (play on)😂😂😂


Posted By: Wil Chips
Date Posted: 22 March 2023 at 11:19am
Red card not upheld. Steward free to play this weekend.


Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 22 March 2023 at 12:01pm
That's rediculous, you could see the guy tense his body and line his left shoulder up to make contact 


Posted By: lofty evans
Date Posted: 22 March 2023 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by Oracle Oracle wrote:

That's rediculous, you could see the guy tense his body and line his left shoulder up to make contact 

Then he is a skillful dirty player then Oracle.....I don't think so.




-------------
In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty"

"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"


Posted By: Fscarlet
Date Posted: 22 March 2023 at 12:35pm
I think I'm in the minority, was a yellow for me.


Posted By: bydder
Date Posted: 22 March 2023 at 1:36pm
I thought it shouldn't be but wasn't surprised the red card was showed

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N11


Posted By: greypower1
Date Posted: 22 March 2023 at 1:55pm
Pure accident to my mind. Not a card of any colour.  Luck of the Irish Wink

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Keep the faith


Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 22 March 2023 at 3:59pm
red card overturned.


Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 22 March 2023 at 6:59pm
Good! Let some sense come out of this.

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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 22 March 2023 at 7:23pm
Rediculous, unbelievable response bar EO Cool which we expect such drivel Big smile


Posted By: N14
Date Posted: 22 March 2023 at 10:30pm
The decision to rescind the red card seems a strange one to me. The way I saw the incident was that it was direct contact to the head with little mitigation. Refereeing of head collisions have become another lottery of the game


Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 23 March 2023 at 7:50am
I personally think its undermining the integrity/competence of the referee...


Posted By: gaffer
Date Posted: 23 March 2023 at 9:48am
The real problem is refereeing inconsistency and that they go into games with pre-conceived ideas about the relative merits of teams and that can impact on decision making. Referees have too great an impact on the game as it stands. 

FWIW, I don't believe there was any intent from Steward, he had little opportunity to change his position. By the letter of the law it is a red, so some sort of sanction was necessary/inevitable in the current climate where player welfare is, quite rightly, a priority. You can argue whether that should have been red/yellow/pen 'til the cows come home. 


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What's going on?


Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 23 March 2023 at 10:36am
More female refs , they seem to turn up without any baggage


Posted By: lofty evans
Date Posted: 23 March 2023 at 9:44pm
Originally posted by Oracle Oracle wrote:

I personally think its undermining the integrity/competence of the referee...


I would suggest it highlights their bias and problem solving.....all the years I've watched refs I've guessed their next move....honestly and so have you .




-------------
In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty"

"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"


Posted By: Seagultaf
Date Posted: 23 March 2023 at 10:20pm
Originally posted by Oracle Oracle wrote:

More female refs , they seem to turn up without any baggage

I dont think its the gender of the refs thats the problem, its the complex and ever changing interpretation of the Laws of the game. 
Whats needed is a return to enforcing the Laws as written, rather than enforcing the ever changing interpretations.


Posted By: roy munster
Date Posted: 23 March 2023 at 11:47pm
Right decision imo


Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 24 March 2023 at 9:34am
Our Nige explained this very well on his twitter. 

He started off by saying that the first thing you have to do is take the emotion out of your thinking. i.e. If your English your going to say yellow at worst if your Irish your going to say red every day of the week. This was clear with Woodward saying rugby incident and O'Driscoll saying red. You also have to remove '14 v 15 spoils a game' from your thinking also - these thoughts just get in the way of making the right decision.

He then went on to say that the ref has to deal with the facts as he sees them in the moment.  Peyper  felt that Steward could have done more to pull out of the contact. Having made that initial assumption, Nigel then went on to explain the series of facts as described by Peyper that led to the red card decision.  Our Nige said that given that thinking process it was difficult to argue against the red card.

Nige then went on to say that he could also understand the thinking that many had that Steward could NOT have done more to avoid the contact.  And if that's your starting point then the facts lead you to a yellow at worst and maybe even just a penalty.

He then went on to say that people would accuse him of siting on the fence but he said No - the reality is that you will always get these decisions that a ref makes in a smouldering cauldron of a game and there will always be debate in the cold light of day.

I thought that was an excellent summary.


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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 24 March 2023 at 9:47am
Originally posted by lofty evans lofty evans wrote:

[QUOTE=Oracle]I personally think its undermining the integrity/competence of the referee...


I would suggest it highlights their bias and problem solving.....all the years I've watched refs I've guessed their next move....honestly and so have you .


[/QUOTE
You are correct , I have felt that sometimes the ref is against us (until SA14 tells me I'm wrong) but that is a different problem ...The point here is that the governing bodies have to back their referees , and stick to their decisions on the pitch , after all there are 4 of them plus back up staff ...if there is an issue with a biased ref then that's a different issue and needs to be addressed by the governing bodies


Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 24 March 2023 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Our Nige explained this very well on his twitter. 

He started off by saying that the first thing you have to do is take the emotion out of your thinking. i.e. If your English your going to say yellow at worst if your Irish your going to say red every day of the week. This was clear with Woodward saying rugby incident and O'Driscoll saying red. You also have to remove '14 v 15 spoils a game' from your thinking also - these thoughts just get in the way of making the right decision.

He then went on to say that the ref has to deal with the facts as he sees them in the moment.  Peyper  felt that Steward could have done more to pull out of the contact. Having made that initial assumption, Nigel then went on to explain the series of facts as described by Peyper that led to the red card decision.  Our Nige said that given that thinking process it was difficult to argue against the red card.

Nige then went on to say that he could also understand the thinking that many had that Steward could NOT have done more to avoid the contact.  And if that's your starting point then the facts lead you to a yellow at worst and maybe even just a penalty.

He then went on to say that people would accuse him of siting on the fence but he said No - the reality is that you will always get these decisions that a ref makes in a smouldering cauldron of a game and there will always be debate in the cold light of day.

I thought that was an excellent summary.
Absolutely, Rob.

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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.


Posted By: lofty evans
Date Posted: 24 March 2023 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Originally posted by Rob o'r Bont Rob o'r Bont wrote:

Our Nige explained this very well on his twitter. 

He started off by saying that the first thing you have to do is take the emotion out of your thinking. i.e. If your English your going to say yellow at worst if your Irish your going to say red every day of the week. This was clear with Woodward saying rugby incident and O'Driscoll saying red. You also have to remove '14 v 15 spoils a game' from your thinking also - these thoughts just get in the way of making the right decision.

He then went on to say that the ref has to deal with the facts as he sees them in the moment.  Peyper  felt that Steward could have done more to pull out of the contact. Having made that initial assumption, Nigel then went on to explain the series of facts as described by Peyper that led to the red card decision.  Our Nige said that given that thinking process it was difficult to argue against the red card.

Nige then went on to say that he could also understand the thinking that many had that Steward could NOT have done more to avoid the contact.  And if that's your starting point then the facts lead you to a yellow at worst and maybe even just a penalty.

He then went on to say that people would accuse him of siting on the fence but he said No - the reality is that you will always get these decisions that a ref makes in a smouldering cauldron of a game and there will always be debate in the cold light of day.

I thought that was an excellent summary.
Absolutely, Rob.

I still think on my first observation it was a yellow.




-------------
In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty"

"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"


Posted By: Winston
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 12:12pm
It was barely a penalty for me 


Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by Seagultaf Seagultaf wrote:

Steward leaped into the air for some inexplicable reason when he was tacking a player who had just picked up a bouncing ball. He no arms shoulder charged him, hitting the tackled player directly in the head with considerable force resulting in him failing a head injury assessment. 
The only time I have seen anything similar on a rugby field not red carded was Tipuric on Johnny McNicholl the first game of this season.
If he had made an attempt to wrap his arms in the tackle, maybe he would have got away with a yellow, but he didn't, so a red was the only option.

My thoughts exactly. Not intentional, but no attempt to wrap or avoid contact; elbow directly to head; 'victim' fails HIA.

A red all day under the current laws. If anyone doesn't like it - get the laws changed.


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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)


Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 1:49pm
Sometimes it takes a brave top class ref to interpret something like this in line with the spirit of the game and not slavishly in line with a rigid protocol that might be fine for most actions but not for all.

Then, the different interpretation can drive good change.


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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.



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