Pension Riots in France
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Topic: Pension Riots in France
Posted By: Oracle
Subject: Pension Riots in France
Date Posted: 24 March 2023 at 8:32pm
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Interesting to see that the riot police have removed their helmets and are sideing with the protestors....Nice to see
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Replies:
Posted By: lofty evans
Date Posted: 24 March 2023 at 10:11pm
 Oracle wrote:
Interesting to see that the riot police have removed their helmets and are sideing with the protestors....Nice to see
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At least the French are making a protest...this Country rises the retirement age to another couple of years and it's a case of which way Sir. We are a internally feeble....yet if we are threatened we are the opposite....mad as hell it is.
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In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty"
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
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Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 24 March 2023 at 10:34pm
Posted By: lofty evans
Date Posted: 24 March 2023 at 10:39pm
Oracle wrote:
Viva la revolution |
I wish we'd wake up.
-------------
In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty"
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 12:28am
lofty evans wrote:
Oracle wrote:
Viva la revolution |
I wish we'd wake up.
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Preach Lofty, preach 
Too many people accept what is called "received wisdom" but is only the tone set or the framing provided by those who leach off our backs. The UK is an old boys club but people cannot conceive of what is outside their normative experience or are at best frightened of change. We have instead a state and political system with it's roots in the old feudal Norman Kingdom that grew to become an Empire then collapsed. It's still collapsing now. It's left us with a Frankenstein State, a scrapbook, back of a cigarette packet constitution, and a class consciousness more ubiquitous than sheep s**t on a hill farm.
Look at the way the far right infested the public sphere. Do you remember the old National Front posters? "Stop Imigration, Reject Common Market, Restore capital punishment, Make Britain great again, Scrap overseas aid, Rebuild our armed forces. Vote National Front". There is a direct straight line from there through the BNP and on to Farage and UKIP. And look at the Tories now. I've heard different Tory MP's championing one or more of those policies on various occasions. This has framed our politics for nearly 50 years now. Think of the bile the Daily Mail and Telegraph etc pump out. So we end up with a known liar who treats democracy and Parliament with contempt as PM with a whopping majority on the back of a frenzy of voters who were hoping for much of what the NF were campaigning for all those years ago. Now he's bumbled his way out of No.10 he's left behind one of the most odious Home Secretaries I've ever known on a callous campaign to scapegoat immigrants as they look to manipulate the "manufactured consent" on this to secure votes.
We need a different framing to our public discourse. Here's a small step in the right direction ... Immigration isn't a "bad thing." Another ... Europe isnt a "bad thing." Perhaps when we finally ditch the right wing narratives that have poisoned the public sphere for so long we can finally have the sort of politics the public desperately needs.
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Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 12:37am
Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 9:02am
totallybiasedscarlet wrote:
lofty evans wrote:
Oracle wrote:
Viva la revolution |
I wish we'd wake up.
|
Preach Lofty, preach
Too many people accept what is called "received wisdom" but is only the tone set or the framing provided by those who leach off our backs. The UK is an old boys club but people cannot conceive of what is outside their normative experience or are at best frightened of change. We have instead a state and political system with it's roots in the old feudal Norman Kingdom that grew to become an Empire then collapsed. It's still collapsing now. It's left us with a Frankenstein State, a scrapbook, back of a cigarette packet constitution, and a class consciousness more ubiquitous than sheep s**t on a hill farm.
Look at the way the far right infested the public sphere. Do you remember the old National Front posters? "Stop Imigration, Reject Common Market, Restore capital punishment, Make Britain great again, Scrap overseas aid, Rebuild our armed forces. Vote National Front". There is a direct straight line from there through the BNP and on to Farage and UKIP. And look at the Tories now. I've heard different Tory MP's championing one or more of those policies on various occasions. This has framed our politics for nearly 50 years now. Think of the bile the Daily Mail and Telegraph etc pump out. So we end up with a known liar who treats democracy and Parliament with contempt as PM with a whopping majority on the back of a frenzy of voters who were hoping for much of what the NF were campaigning for all those years ago. Now he's bumbled his way out of No.10 he's left behind one of the most odious Home Secretaries I've ever known on a callous campaign to scapegoat immigrants as they look to manipulate the "manufactured consent" on this to secure votes.
We need a different framing to our public discourse. Here's a small step in the right direction ... Immigration isn't a "bad thing." Another ... Europe isnt a "bad thing." Perhaps when we finally ditch the right wing narratives that have poisoned the public sphere for so long we can finally have the sort of politics the public desperately needs. |
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Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 9:28am
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So the narrative appears to be that we have the right wing press combined with an electorate, or at least a sizeable minority of that electorate, who cannot be trusted to make their own minds up on who is best qualified to represent them.
If this is the case how do we fix this system. Curtailing the powers of the "free" press is a tricky task. Certainly restrictions on political articles could be introduced in the run up to elections & ownership rules could be drastically tightened. Some form of proportional representation must be introduced to at least give every voter an incentive to take part - I support making voting compulsory as long, of course, as each vote does really count. Once we can establish a much fairer system we can then look to devolve power away from Westminster.
This is, of course, no quick fix but the solution has to start somewhere. TBS you state that the system is collapsing - I tend to agree but if a system is collapsing & the wealth gap is widening which it surely is how can we support spending 100's of millions on overseas aid when we have more homeless people and the use of foodbanks is at record levels. We have a population many of which are struggling yet we still appear to want to walk the walk of our Empire status. For me this is a dilemma.
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Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 9:30am
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Where are the riot police joining with protestors? It’s all over social media they are battering the protestors.
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Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 9:34am
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You can’t gag the press the mail is right wing no one has to buy it the morning star is left wing no one has to buy it. If people don’t want to read a paper no one forces them to do it, it’s called freedom of choice . I don’t want to get into any personal spats but looking at the torys run of succes the brexit result, the uk is in the main a centre / centre right country and that is where we are at. If labour want to win a ge they have to win the centre ground and lots of voters there support a well finamced military and the return of hamging for some offences not that this will ever happen
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Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 9:55am
RR1972 wrote:
You can’t gag the press the mail is right wing no one has to buy it the morning star is left wing no one has to buy it. If people don’t want to read a paper no one forces them to do it, it’s called freedom of choice . I don’t want to get into any personal spats but looking at the torys run of succes the brexit result, the uk is in the main a centre / centre right country and that is where we are at. If labour want to win a ge they have to win the centre ground and lots of voters there support a well finamced military and the return of hamging for some offences not that this will ever happen |
I understand the difficulty in attempting to limit the press but a blanket restriction at certain times in the election cycle regardless of wing could work. I totally appreciate that what someone reads is their choice but we are being presented with a narrative that says the right wing press has an undue influence on voters. If we believe that should we not act?
As for Labour winning the centre ground I agree. Blair made no apology for placing himself & his policies firmly in the centre & he had more success than any other post war Labour leader.
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Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 10:02am
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Imo it’s a lazy trope and just a weak excuse to say people vote because of the right wing media, most people don’t even buy papers . Those who buy the mail are already right wing leaning it’s why they buy the paper. Maybe the left leaning parties should follow how people vote and listen to their concerns abd adapt accordingly, you don’t win votes by telling people they are thick right wing bigots (even if you believe they are) you have to get them onside . You can’t change anything in opposition
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Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 10:03am
GPR - Rochester wrote:
So the narrative appears to be that we have the right wing press combined with an electorate, or at least a sizeable minority of that electorate, who cannot be trusted to make their own minds up on who is best qualified to represent them.
If this is the case how do we fix this system. Curtailing the powers of the "free" press is a tricky task. Certainly restrictions on political articles could be introduced in the run up to elections & ownership rules could be drastically tightened. Some form of proportional representation must be introduced to at least give every voter an incentive to take part - I support making voting compulsory as long, of course, as each vote does really count. Once we can establish a much fairer system we can then look to devolve power away from Westminster.
This is, of course, no quick fix but the solution has to start somewhere. TBS you state that the system is collapsing - I tend to agree but if a system is collapsing & the wealth gap is widening which it surely is how can we support spending 100's of millions on overseas aid when we have more homeless people and the use of foodbanks is at record levels. We have a population many of which are struggling yet we still appear to want to walk the walk of our Empire status. For me this is a dilemma. |
I am perfectly happy with a free press but it is worrying when people take opinions as fact. People should always question the evidence for why a columnist or journalist is making their claims and, if found to have none, they should rightly ignore their future input. This is different to bias but people should be aware a publication supports a certain political party. I can bring up a certain Boris Johnson who wrote very shaky opinion columns, including an example of making up a quote for which he was fired, and how this made him "a personality" to become an MP, Mayor of London and then Prime Minister. With the inevitable consequences. If the system was functioning correctly, he would have been discredited early on in his journalistic career for lying and his subsequent words ignored. I argue this would have been to the benefit of the UK.
Personally, if I was a DM reader and read "At last, a TRUE Tory budget" about an event that crashed the economy, I would have second thoughts about buying it again. But readerships are loyal with an aligned political stance (I read the Guardian although I don't think this has an official party alliance but is obviously left wing) and we can all see the impact of a dominant right wing press who control the narrative. Does that reflect the UK or have they shaped it?
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Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 10:07am
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Blair best move was to get onsude with murdoch, it’s all about winning and he did what he had to do to win. The left often seem to want to win the debate rather than the election
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Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 10:20am
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Some background as to why the pensions dispute matters more in France than here, from my conversations with folk there. My understanding is a long way from complete so this post remains within what I believe to be correct.
In the UK, the State Pension is a much lower figure in comparison to what France provide. There, the state takes on much of the responsibility for retirement income for their population. The benefits are a proportion of your income so affect pretty much everyone, including people earning high(er) incomes.
In the UK, the provision of pensions has been a responsibility of the private sector for its employees for a very long time. In the past, there were plenty of Final Salary schemes provided by the private sector. Now, not quite hens’ teeth but close. They became too costly and brought too much responsibility for the companies running them.
Only the public sector can be confident of a pension that is a benefit promise (near guarantee) and depending on how long worked there it can be up to 2/3rds of earnings at/nr retirement. The cost of these schemes is probably close to 40% of the pensionable earnings, a fact not really appreciated by many or valued by its members. Everyone outside the public sector contributes to the cost of these through their taxes.
The Autoenrolment replacement schemes have derisory levels of contributions - 8% or 9% of earnings in total and the employer is only required to put in 3%. While this has brought pension contributions to people who never had them before, it has seen many companies ditching benefit promise schemes and the high contributions and responsibilities required. Sharp practice indeed and not enough (could be/was) done to stop that.
The UK has been ahead of most of Europe in understanding how much benefits cost and funding those in advance.
France - the government have looked at how much the benefit promises are costing and have worked out it’s unaffordable, especially within the financial strictures of the € mechanism. Rather than say this is how much it costs to provide these benefits, here are the options to do that so choose one, it’s become a stand off between the govt’s can’t afford it so we’re putting in this solution and the unions and workers saying plant another magic money tree.
They could raise taxes to fund the status quo. However, no politician that wants to be re-elected is willing to risk that solution.
Changes to the UK State Pension, now about 10K a year for someone with a full NI contribution record - down from maybe 20K at the peak of SERPS (eighties, Barbara Castle’s idea possibly) are small compared to the changes in France.
The govt there used the law 49.3 to force through the retirement age changes without a vote in parliament.
The comparison to make, in my opinion is if the UK govt suddenly told all the beneficiaries of the Council staff, Teachers, NHS, Firefighters and others possibly including posties, that their benefits were going to be reduced or their normal retirement age postponed by a couple more years. We’ve seen plenty of industrial action when pension changes have been put forward by the employers. It’s never been that co-ordinated.
Living longer after retirement has to be paid for somehow and there’s no easy solution.
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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.
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Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 10:20am
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Murdoch has had huge influence over American and British politics , but he has always fuelled far right views , including support of the biggest self harm event a country has ever done (Brexit) and supported the rise of Trump ..He's currently being taken to court in the USA , so maybe his past us catching up with him Ironically I never understood how the owners of the express and the lies it openly prints can also own the mirror ....Can't square that circle at all
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Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 10:28am
RR1972 wrote:
Blair best move was to get onsude with murdoch, it’s all about winning and he did what he had to do to win. The left often seem to want to win the debate rather than the election |
Which shows the power of the press and popular vote. I really think it should be about winning the debate as you put it. But most people are busy, not hugely interested in politics or distrustful of it, find in depth discussion about things like the economy boring... So no wonder an intermediate with punchy headlines has more impact.
Also I said does our majority right wing press reflect or influence but consider why we have more right wing papers... Generally, pro-business right wing leaning people are richer (or vice versa) so have more resources and will naturally align with a right-wing pro-business anti-worker or public services party. Murdoch being case in point. There's basically a massive drift towards the money, which is usually in the hands of a very small minority. This is at massive cost for electoral choice for the majority because the amount the right invests in PR is disproportionately greater and dominates the market.
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Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 10:35am
Eastern outpost wrote:
Some background as to why the pensions dispute matters more in France than here, from my conversations with folk there. My understanding is a long way from complete so this post remains within what I believe to be correct.
In the UK, the State Pension is a much lower figure in comparison to what France provide. There, the state takes on much of the responsibility for retirement income for their population. The benefits are a proportion of your income so affect pretty much everyone, including people earning high(er) incomes.
In the UK, the provision of pensions has been a responsibility of the private sector for its employees for a very long time. In the past, there were plenty of Final Salary schemes provided by the private sector. Now, not quite hens’ teeth but close. They became too costly and brought too much responsibility for the companies running them.
Only the public sector can be confident of a pension that is a benefit promise (near guarantee) and depending on how long worked there it can be up to 2/3rds of earnings at/nr retirement. The cost of these schemes is probably close to 40% of the pensionable earnings, a fact not really appreciated by many or valued by its members. Everyone outside the public sector contributes to the cost of these through their taxes.
The Autoenrolment replacement schemes have derisory levels of contributions - 8% or 9% of earnings in total and the employer is only required to put in 3%. While this has brought pension contributions to people who never had them before, it has seen many companies ditching benefit promise schemes and the high contributions and responsibilities required. Sharp practice indeed and not enough (could be/was) done to stop that.
The UK has been ahead of most of Europe in understanding how much benefits cost and funding those in advance.
France - the government have looked at how much the benefit promises are costing and have worked out it’s unaffordable, especially within the financial strictures of the € mechanism. Rather than say this is how much it costs to provide these benefits, here are the options to do that so choose one, it’s become a stand off between the govt’s can’t afford it so we’re putting in this solution and the unions and workers saying plant another magic money tree.
They could raise taxes to fund the status quo. However, no politician that wants to be re-elected is willing to risk that solution.
Changes to the UK State Pension, now about 10K a year for someone with a full NI contribution record - down from maybe 20K at the peak of SERPS (eighties, Barbara Castle’s idea possibly) are small compared to the changes in France.
The govt there used the law 49.3 to force through the retirement age changes without a vote in parliament.
The comparison to make, in my opinion is if the UK govt suddenly told all the beneficiaries of the Council staff, Teachers, NHS, Firefighters and others possibly including posties, that their benefits were going to be reduced or their normal retirement age postponed by a couple more years. We’ve seen plenty of industrial action when pension changes have been put forward by the employers. It’s never been that co-ordinated.
Living longer after retirement has to be paid for somehow and there’s no easy solution. |
logan’s run the only way to resolve this
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Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 10:36am
Oracle wrote:
Murdoch has had huge influence over American and British politics , but he has always fuelled far right views , including support of the biggest self harm event a country has ever done (Brexit) and supported the rise of Trump ..He's currently being taken to court in the USA , so maybe his past us catching up with him Ironically I never understood how the owners of the express and the lies it openly prints can also own the mirror ....Can't square that circle at all |
Biggest self harm event..... - of course that is your honestly held opinion which you are perfectly entitled to. I don't agree - for me the biggest self harm event I have seen in my lifetime is Blair's insistence on going to war in Iraq due to non existent WMD or indeed the British electorate voting for Boris.
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Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 10:38am
Eastern outpost wrote:
Some background as to why the pensions dispute matters more in France than here, from my conversations with folk there. My understanding is a long way from complete so this post remains within what I believe to be correct.
In the UK, the State Pension is a much lower figure in comparison to what France provide. There, the state takes on much of the responsibility for retirement income for their population. The benefits are a proportion of your income so affect pretty much everyone, including people earning high(er) incomes.
In the UK, the provision of pensions has been a responsibility of the private sector for its employees for a very long time. In the past, there were plenty of Final Salary schemes provided by the private sector. Now, not quite hens’ teeth but close. They became too costly and brought too much responsibility for the companies running them.
Only the public sector can be confident of a pension that is a benefit promise (near guarantee) and depending on how long worked there it can be up to 2/3rds of earnings at/nr retirement. The cost of these schemes is probably close to 40% of the pensionable earnings, a fact not really appreciated by many or valued by its members. Everyone outside the public sector contributes to the cost of these through their taxes.
The Autoenrolment replacement schemes have derisory levels of contributions - 8% or 9% of earnings in total and the employer is only required to put in 3%. While this has brought pension contributions to people who never had them before, it has seen many companies ditching benefit promise schemes and the high contributions and responsibilities required. Sharp practice indeed and not enough (could be/was) done to stop that.
The UK has been ahead of most of Europe in understanding how much benefits cost and funding those in advance.
France - the government have looked at how much the benefit promises are costing and have worked out it’s unaffordable, especially within the financial strictures of the € mechanism. Rather than say this is how much it costs to provide these benefits, here are the options to do that so choose one, it’s become a stand off between the govt’s can’t afford it so we’re putting in this solution and the unions and workers saying plant another magic money tree.
They could raise taxes to fund the status quo. However, no politician that wants to be re-elected is willing to risk that solution.
Changes to the UK State Pension, now about 10K a year for someone with a full NI contribution record - down from maybe 20K at the peak of SERPS (eighties, Barbara Castle’s idea possibly) are small compared to the changes in France.
The govt there used the law 49.3 to force through the retirement age changes without a vote in parliament.
The comparison to make, in my opinion is if the UK govt suddenly told all the beneficiaries of the Council staff, Teachers, NHS, Firefighters and others possibly including posties, that their benefits were going to be reduced or their normal retirement age postponed by a couple more years. We’ve seen plenty of industrial action when pension changes have been put forward by the employers. It’s never been that co-ordinated.
Living longer after retirement has to be paid for somehow and there’s no easy solution. |
Thanks EO - some very informative meat on the bones there. |
Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 10:41am
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I would say that the war in Iraq was stupidity by UK and USA , but I felt that bush jnr seemed to have this desire to complete what his father started and Blair thought he would go with it because of some fantasy belief that the UK was somehow special to the USA ..which we have seen to be rubbish ... Brexit was purely down to us , I believe brexit is the only time in the entire history of the world that a country has imposed sanctions apon itself ...if the UK was a person , I believe it would be sectioned under the heading of self harm
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Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 11:18am
Oracle wrote:
I would say that the war in Iraq was stupidity by UK and USA , but I felt that bush jnr seemed to have this desire to complete what his father started and Blair thought he would go with it because of some fantasy belief that the UK was somehow special to the USA ..which we have seen to be rubbish ...Brexit was purely down to us , I believe brexit is the only time in the entire history of the world that a country has imposed sanctions apon itself ...if the UK was a person , I believe it would be sectioned under the heading of self harm |
Well Oracle Iraq was purely down to us as a free nation. Your thoughts on Brexit are well documented as, of course, is my disagreement with you. I don't think there is much more for either of us to say on that subject.
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Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 11:25am
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But the weekend is for fishing
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Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 11:40am
Oracle wrote:
But the weekend is for fishing |
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Posted By: SA14
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 12:14pm
Oracle wrote:
I would say that the war in Iraq was stupidity by UK and USA , but I felt that bush jnr seemed to have this desire to complete what his father started and Blair thought he would go with it because of some fantasy belief that the UK was somehow special to the USA ..which we have seen to be rubbish ...Brexit was purely down to us , I believe brexit is the only time in the entire history of the world that a country has imposed sanctions apon itself ...if the UK was a person , I believe it would be sectioned under the heading of self harm |
Brexit was never about the economy. Unfortunately it was about one thing. That the public voted for. Twice.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 12:21pm
Oracle wrote:
I would say that the war in Iraq was stupidity by UK and USA , but I felt that bush jnr seemed to have this desire to complete what his father started and Blair thought he would go with it because of some fantasy belief that the UK was somehow special to the USA ..which we have seen to be rubbish ...Brexit was purely down to us , I believe brexit is the only time in the entire history of the world that a country has imposed sanctions apon itself ...if the UK was a person , I believe it would be sectioned under the heading of self harm |
The Iraq war was nothing short of iniquitous IMHO. Brexit was the single biggest collective tantrum a State has ever thrown. Rattle firmly out of the pram. Far right rubbing their hands in glee over it.
The way I see it Oracle, is that sometimes in politics it is necessary for political parties to be opinion formers. That's what I believe the Left needs to do with vigour. Dr M makes excellent points about the press. In which case the Left needs to organise and bring the power of collectivism to bear. Good to see the Bylines network growing. There is a Bylines Cymru page too. Early days so far but hoping that the Left can really begin to challenge right wing paradigms that have hitherto been accepted and normalised.
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Posted By: lofty evans
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 12:41pm
Eastern outpost wrote:
Some background as to why the pensions dispute matters more in France than here, from my conversations with folk there. My understanding is a long way from complete so this post remains within what I believe to be correct.
In the UK, the State Pension is a much lower figure in comparison to what France provide. There, the state takes on much of the responsibility for retirement income for their population. The benefits are a proportion of your income so affect pretty much everyone, including people earning high(er) incomes.
In the UK, the provision of pensions has been a responsibility of the private sector for its employees for a very long time. In the past, there were plenty of Final Salary schemes provided by the private sector. Now, not quite hens’ teeth but close. They became too costly and brought too much responsibility for the companies running them.
Only the public sector can be confident of a pension that is a benefit promise (near guarantee) and depending on how long worked there it can be up to 2/3rds of earnings at/nr retirement. The cost of these schemes is probably close to 40% of the pensionable earnings, a fact not really appreciated by many or valued by its members. Everyone outside the public sector contributes to the cost of these through their taxes.
The Autoenrolment replacement schemes have derisory levels of contributions - 8% or 9% of earnings in total and the employer is only required to put in 3%. While this has brought pension contributions to people who never had them before, it has seen many companies ditching benefit promise schemes and the high contributions and responsibilities required. Sharp practice indeed and not enough (could be/was) done to stop that.
The UK has been ahead of most of Europe in understanding how much benefits cost and funding those in advance.
France - the government have looked at how much the benefit promises are costing and have worked out it’s unaffordable, especially within the financial strictures of the € mechanism. Rather than say this is how much it costs to provide these benefits, here are the options to do that so choose one, it’s become a stand off between the govt’s can’t afford it so we’re putting in this solution and the unions and workers saying plant another magic money tree.
They could raise taxes to fund the status quo. However, no politician that wants to be re-elected is willing to risk that solution.
Changes to the UK State Pension, now about 10K a year for someone with a full NI contribution record - down from maybe 20K at the peak of SERPS (eighties, Barbara Castle’s idea possibly) are small compared to the changes in France.
The govt there used the law 49.3 to force through the retirement age changes without a vote in parliament.
The comparison to make, in my opinion is if the UK govt suddenly told all the beneficiaries of the Council staff, Teachers, NHS, Firefighters and others possibly including posties, that their benefits were going to be reduced or their normal retirement age postponed by a couple more years. We’ve seen plenty of industrial action when pension changes have been put forward by the employers. It’s never been that co-ordinated.
Living longer after retirement has to be paid for somehow and there’s no easy solution. |
Why don't we call a spade a spade.....the ideal plan is you contribute all your working life and the real ideal is you die before you retire. Shamefully people don't smoke and drink themselves to an early grave and actually god forbid understand there is a life you should have before dying. Because that is coming to all of us.....so your not allowed to enjoy your existence...ever. Winds me up this pension stuff.
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In 1972, Roy Bergiers scored that try and said "that was for you lofty"
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
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Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 1:34pm
totallybiasedscarlet wrote:
Oracle wrote:
I would say that the war in Iraq was stupidity by UK and USA , but I felt that bush jnr seemed to have this desire to complete what his father started and Blair thought he would go with it because of some fantasy belief that the UK was somehow special to the USA ..which we have seen to be rubbish ...Brexit was purely down to us , I believe brexit is the only time in the entire history of the world that a country has imposed sanctions apon itself ...if the UK was a person , I believe it would be sectioned under the heading of self harm |
The Iraq war was nothing short of iniquitous IMHO. Brexit was the single biggest collective tantrum a State has ever thrown. Rattle firmly out of the pram. Far right rubbing their hands in glee over it.
The way I see it Oracle, is that sometimes in politics it is necessary for political parties to be opinion formers. That's what I believe the Left needs to do with vigour. Dr M makes excellent points about the press. In which case the Left needs to organise and bring the power of collectivism to bear. Good to see the Bylines network growing. There is a Bylines Cymru page too. Early days so far but hoping that the Left can really begin to challenge right wing paradigms that have hitherto been accepted and normalised. |
Tantrums & rattles out of the pram - tell you what TBS I'll take your word on that.  |
Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 2:30pm
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On a slightly different note, do you think the far right has won ...when you talk to young people who openly say that they will never be able to own their own house or that they know they will never have a pension if they ever can retire , and accept it with just a shrug ....No passion no annoyance, just passive acceptance ...I feel that things won't get better for them
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Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 2:31pm
SA14 wrote:
[QUOTE=Oracle]I would say that the war in Iraq was stupidity by UK and USA , but I felt that bush jnr seemed to have this desire to complete what his father started and Blair thought he would go with it because of some fantasy belief that the UK was somehow special to the USA ..which we have seen to be rubbish ...Brexit was purely down to us , I believe brexit is the only time in the entire history of the world that a country has imposed sanctions apon itself ...if the UK was a person , I believe it would be sectioned under the heading of self harm [/QUOTE
Brexit was never about the economy. Unfortunately it was about one thing. That the public voted for. Twice. |
You say twice , what do you mean
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 11:28pm
lofty evans wrote:
Eastern outpost wrote:
Some background as to why the pensions dispute matters more in France than here, from my conversations with folk there. My understanding is a long way from complete so this post remains within what I believe to be correct.
In the UK, the State Pension is a much lower figure in comparison to what France provide. There, the state takes on much of the responsibility for retirement income for their population. The benefits are a proportion of your income so affect pretty much everyone, including people earning high(er) incomes.
In the UK, the provision of pensions has been a responsibility of the private sector for its employees for a very long time. In the past, there were plenty of Final Salary schemes provided by the private sector. Now, not quite hens’ teeth but close. They became too costly and brought too much responsibility for the companies running them.
Only the public sector can be confident of a pension that is a benefit promise (near guarantee) and depending on how long worked there it can be up to 2/3rds of earnings at/nr retirement. The cost of these schemes is probably close to 40% of the pensionable earnings, a fact not really appreciated by many or valued by its members. Everyone outside the public sector contributes to the cost of these through their taxes.
The Autoenrolment replacement schemes have derisory levels of contributions - 8% or 9% of earnings in total and the employer is only required to put in 3%. While this has brought pension contributions to people who never had them before, it has seen many companies ditching benefit promise schemes and the high contributions and responsibilities required. Sharp practice indeed and not enough (could be/was) done to stop that.
The UK has been ahead of most of Europe in understanding how much benefits cost and funding those in advance.
France - the government have looked at how much the benefit promises are costing and have worked out it’s unaffordable, especially within the financial strictures of the € mechanism. Rather than say this is how much it costs to provide these benefits, here are the options to do that so choose one, it’s become a stand off between the govt’s can’t afford it so we’re putting in this solution and the unions and workers saying plant another magic money tree.
They could raise taxes to fund the status quo. However, no politician that wants to be re-elected is willing to risk that solution.
Changes to the UK State Pension, now about 10K a year for someone with a full NI contribution record - down from maybe 20K at the peak of SERPS (eighties, Barbara Castle’s idea possibly) are small compared to the changes in France.
The govt there used the law 49.3 to force through the retirement age changes without a vote in parliament.
The comparison to make, in my opinion is if the UK govt suddenly told all the beneficiaries of the Council staff, Teachers, NHS, Firefighters and others possibly including posties, that their benefits were going to be reduced or their normal retirement age postponed by a couple more years. We’ve seen plenty of industrial action when pension changes have been put forward by the employers. It’s never been that co-ordinated.
Living longer after retirement has to be paid for somehow and there’s no easy solution. |
Why don't we call a spade a spade.....the ideal plan is you contribute all your working life and the real ideal is you die before you retire. Shamefully people don't smoke and drink themselves to an early grave and actually god forbid understand there is a life you should have before dying. Because that is coming to all of us.....so your not allowed to enjoy your existence...ever. Winds me up this pension stuff. |
Some MP's obviously looking to top up their pensions here Lofty:
https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1639689865238306816?s=20" rel="nofollow - https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1639689865238306816?s=20
Bless 'em, it's a hard life eh ...
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Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 25 March 2023 at 11:52pm
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Bojo hancock corbyn 3 money grabbing clowns
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Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 26 March 2023 at 11:07am
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The enthusiasm of the French to protest is legendary. Unfortunately this protest, as others before, seems to be taking a fairly predictable path. Genuine, peaceful protesters are infiltrated by extremists ( I do not attempt to differentiate between left/right) & may end up in someone suffering serious injury or god forbid worse.
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Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 26 March 2023 at 1:19pm
GPR - Rochester wrote:
The enthusiasm of the French to protest is legendary. Unfortunately this protest, as others before, seems to be taking a fairly predictable path. Genuine, peaceful protesters are infiltrated by extremists ( I do not attempt to differentiate between left/right) & may end up in someone suffering serious injury or god forbid worse. |
You are not wrong, unfortunately. The French are very willing to protest vigorously and in numbers (which is good), but the protests are invariably infiltrated by a significant number - though a minority - of hooligans who just want a fight and to break things. (On the other side, the riot police - CRS - are a very violent bunch not given to caring overmuch if they are bashing a 'casseur' on the head, or a peaceful protester. I got gassed twice by the CRS, and I wasn't protesting or anywhere near the action!)
The British are the exact opposite: supine in the face of dreadful governments who are simply taking the pi**. Most would not go anywhere near a march or protest unless told to do so by the UK equivalent of 'Fox News', of Congress invasion fame in the USA.
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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 26 March 2023 at 2:45pm
aber-fan wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
The enthusiasm of the French to protest is legendary. Unfortunately this protest, as others before, seems to be taking a fairly predictable path. Genuine, peaceful protesters are infiltrated by extremists ( I do not attempt to differentiate between left/right) & may end up in someone suffering serious injury or god forbid worse. |
You are not wrong, unfortunately. The French are very willing to protest vigorously and in numbers (which is good), but the protests are invariably infiltrated by a significant number - though a minority - of hooligans who just want a fight and to break things. (On the other side, the riot police - CRS - are a very violent bunch not given to caring overmuch if they are bashing a 'casseur' on the head, or a peaceful protester. I got gassed twice by the CRS, and I wasn't protesting or anywhere near the action!)
The British are the exact opposite: supine in the face of dreadful governments who are simply taking the pi**. Most would not go anywhere near a march or protest unless told to do so by the UK equivalent of 'Fox News', of Congress invasion fame in the USA. |
A “casseur” translates as someone who breaks things, as my knowledge recollects. Is there any other translation, Aber?
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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.
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Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 26 March 2023 at 7:44pm
Eastern outpost wrote:
aber-fan wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
The enthusiasm of the French to protest is legendary. Unfortunately this protest, as others before, seems to be taking a fairly predictable path. Genuine, peaceful protesters are infiltrated by extremists ( I do not attempt to differentiate between left/right) & may end up in someone suffering serious injury or god forbid worse. |
You are not wrong, unfortunately. The French are very willing to protest vigorously and in numbers (which is good), but the protests are invariably infiltrated by a significant number - though a minority - of hooligans who just want a fight and to break things. (On the other side, the riot police - CRS - are a very violent bunch not given to caring overmuch if they are bashing a 'casseur' on the head, or a peaceful protester. I got gassed twice by the CRS, and I wasn't protesting or anywhere near the action!)
The British are the exact opposite: supine in the face of dreadful governments who are simply taking the pi**. Most would not go anywhere near a march or protest unless told to do so by the UK equivalent of 'Fox News', of Congress invasion fame in the USA. |
A “casseur” translates as someone who breaks things, as my knowledge recollects. Is there any other translation, Aber? |
No idea, but it's what the French call these idiots who try to turn any peaceful protest into a riot. Can't think of an exact British equivalent.
In the meantime, over 'ere the government are attempting to turn peaceful protesters into criminals, on top of their decades of legislation making it harder for unions to call strikes - despite which, we now have doctors and nurses striking for the first time ever - or for a very long time (I'm not sure which). 'Repressive' doesn't begin to cover it - no wonder many lawyers are refusing to prosecute people charged under this new law. I suppose the next thing will be that the government will begin appointing the judges...
-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 27 March 2023 at 7:54pm
Oracle wrote:
Interesting to see that the riot police have removed their helmets and are sideing with the protestors....Nice to see
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so where and when did this happen there’s no actual news report of this anywhere?
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Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 27 March 2023 at 8:06pm
aber-fan wrote:
Eastern outpost wrote:
aber-fan wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
The enthusiasm of the French to protest is legendary. Unfortunately this protest, as others before, seems to be taking a fairly predictable path. Genuine, peaceful protesters are infiltrated by extremists ( I do not attempt to differentiate between left/right) & may end up in someone suffering serious injury or god forbid worse. |
You are not wrong, unfortunately. The French are very willing to protest vigorously and in numbers (which is good), but the protests are invariably infiltrated by a significant number - though a minority - of hooligans who just want a fight and to break things. (On the other side, the riot police - CRS - are a very violent bunch not given to caring overmuch if they are bashing a 'casseur' on the head, or a peaceful protester. I got gassed twice by the CRS, and I wasn't protesting or anywhere near the action!)
The British are the exact opposite: supine in the face of dreadful governments who are simply taking the pi**. Most would not go anywhere near a march or protest unless told to do so by the UK equivalent of 'Fox News', of Congress invasion fame in the USA. |
A “casseur” translates as someone who breaks things, as my knowledge recollects. Is there any other translation, Aber? |
No idea, but it's what the French call these idiots who try to turn any peaceful protest into a riot. Can't think of an exact British equivalent.
In the meantime, over 'ere the government are attempting to turn peaceful protesters into criminals, on top of their decades of legislation making it harder for unions to call strikes - despite which, we now have doctors and nurses striking for the first time ever - or for a very long time (I'm not sure which). 'Repressive' doesn't begin to cover it - no wonder many lawyers are refusing to prosecute people charged under this new law. I suppose the next thing will be that the government will begin appointing the judges... |
in recent years the cps have always had the say on who does or doesn’t get prosecuted
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Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 27 March 2023 at 10:37pm
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Now it seems to be Murdock , ultimately
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Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 28 March 2023 at 1:49pm
RR1972 wrote:
aber-fan wrote:
Eastern outpost wrote:
aber-fan wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
The enthusiasm of the French to protest is legendary. Unfortunately this protest, as others before, seems to be taking a fairly predictable path. Genuine, peaceful protesters are infiltrated by extremists ( I do not attempt to differentiate between left/right) & may end up in someone suffering serious injury or god forbid worse. |
You are not wrong, unfortunately. The French are very willing to protest vigorously and in numbers (which is good), but the protests are invariably infiltrated by a significant number - though a minority - of hooligans who just want a fight and to break things. (On the other side, the riot police - CRS - are a very violent bunch not given to caring overmuch if they are bashing a 'casseur' on the head, or a peaceful protester. I got gassed twice by the CRS, and I wasn't protesting or anywhere near the action!)
The British are the exact opposite: supine in the face of dreadful governments who are simply taking the pi**. Most would not go anywhere near a march or protest unless told to do so by the UK equivalent of 'Fox News', of Congress invasion fame in the USA. |
A “casseur” translates as someone who breaks things, as my knowledge recollects. Is there any other translation, Aber? |
No idea, but it's what the French call these idiots who try to turn any peaceful protest into a riot. Can't think of an exact British equivalent.
In the meantime, over 'ere the government are attempting to turn peaceful protesters into criminals, on top of their decades of legislation making it harder for unions to call strikes - despite which, we now have doctors and nurses striking for the first time ever - or for a very long time (I'm not sure which). 'Repressive' doesn't begin to cover it - no wonder many lawyers are refusing to prosecute people charged under this new law. I suppose the next thing will be that the government will begin appointing the judges... |
in recent years the cps have always had the say on who does or doesn’t get prosecuted |
Oh, I am well aware - but the repressive nature of the current UK government is edging towards a Israel-style move for them to appoint the judges. (Remember the 'Enemies of the People' headline in the Daily Mail? That is the road to dictatorship.)
As for prosecutors, we are now in a position - as I said - where the government are bringing in laws to make peaceful protestors into CRIMINALS. This is unacceptable. As a prominent lawyer has written:
Like big tobacco, the fossil fuel industry has known for decades what its activities mean. They mean the loss of human life and property, which the civil law should prevent but does not. The scientific evidence is that global heating, the natural and inevitable consequence of its actions, will cause the deaths of huge numbers of people. The criminal law should punish this but it does not. Nor does the law recognise a crime of ecocide to deter the destruction of the planet. The law works for the fossil fuel industry – but it does not work for us. Sometimes the law is wrong. What it stands for is the opposite of justice. Today’s history books speak with horror about what the law of yesterday did, of how it permitted racism, rape and murder. And tomorrow’s history books will say the same about the law as it stands today, of how it enabled the destruction of our planet and the displacement of billions of people. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/24/100-lawyers-prosecute-climate-protesters-laws-planet-criminalise" rel="nofollow - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/24/100-lawyers-prosecute-climate-protesters-laws-planet-criminalise
-------------
“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 28 March 2023 at 5:06pm
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Is he the same guy that beat a fox to death with a base ball bat and put it all over social media? Lovely fella . The displacement of billions of people? The uk contributes less than 2 per cent of glocal hot air gasses if we went carbon neutral it won’t change a thing globallly tbh in short that prominent lawyer is vastly over egging the impact any law in the uk would have re climate chamges. He should he looking towards asia and south america if he really wants to make a difference. I’m constantly amazed how people like him are able to ignore actual facts and put out hyperbolic statements with out being challenged and i’m no climate change denier but unless we tackle the big polluters all this posturung by joey boy and co is meaningless. Prey tell us joylon how this will stop fossel fuel use in india or china? Etc
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Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 28 March 2023 at 7:10pm
RR1972 wrote:
Prey tell us joylon how this will stop fossel fuel use in india or china? Etc
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As I'm sure you realise, we in the UK are not in a position to do much about those countries... we can only do our bit - or not, as the case may be.
In any case, the law which is proposed is not one which can only be applied to climate protesters. It could be used against ANY group seeking to cause disruption by peaceful and non-violent means... so your focus on climate change only is a bit of a red herring. I can see how you may have been misled by the article, though.
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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 28 March 2023 at 8:37pm
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I’m not overly familiar with the bill so plesse feel to expand. The article was focussing on climate change which is way i commented on that part of it so not so much of a red herring more answering the point raised in the article I’m not defending the bill just pointing out that on a global scale joly and boys stance will have zero inpact, i thought he was mainly a tax lawyer? Does he do much prosecuting of public order offences then? Anyhow I ll await further info on this new law
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Posted By: scarletpimp
Date Posted: 28 March 2023 at 10:20pm
aber-fan wrote:
RR1972 wrote:
Prey tell us joylon how this will stop fossel fuel use in india or china? Etc
|
As I'm sure you realise, we in the UK are not in a position to do much about those countries... we can only do our bit - or not, as the case may be.
In any case, the law which is proposed is not one which can only be applied to climate protesters. It could be used against ANY group seeking to cause disruption by peaceful and non-violent means... so your focus on climate change only is a bit of a red herring. I can see how you may have been misled by the article, though. |
I can understand RR 's point about India /China with regard to their fossil fuel emissions. Aber-fan, however is spot on by saying that we 'have to do pour bit'. Anyone watching Attenborough' s latest series, will be alarmed as I am, to see him draw our attention to the fact that he UK is only the worst nature depleted countries. The destruction of natural habitats & the population of wildlife decline across the board, with many species facing possible extinction . Intensive and intensive farming is no soley, but has played a major part. What legacy are we passing on to our children and their children. We are literally at a cross roads, and in the last chance saloon.
We cannt lecture India, China, or anyone else, unless we get our own house in order. This is why the WAG decision to shelve new roadbuilding was a massive step in the right direction. Current inafixtures projects should still go ahead to improve what is already in place , together with improvements to public transport. There should be a total ban on plastic bags in outlets. People would learn to bring their own reusable bags, which I never do to the supermarket without People have to do more to ensure we make a difference, even if it's in a small way.
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I stood yer on tanner bank
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Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 29 March 2023 at 7:46am
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Climate change is a World problem and needs global action. To date there has been a lot of talk about targets but very little on the ground action. Please correct me anyone as I will admit to a limited knowledge here. From my own little village I see opportunities for long term planning being wasted. I will cite one example. My best mate decided to move into a house 4 doors down from us. The property needed extensive modernisation but despite his best efforts no real help was forthcoming from government agencies which resulted in him fitting a new oil boiler.
I know one of the people posting on this thread will have a lot more knowledge in this field of solar & alternative heating systems so it would be great to have his input - over to you Rob of Bont!!!!
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Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 29 March 2023 at 7:57am
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Aber has brought up an important topic with regard to peaceful protest. It is surely a fundamental right in a free democracy for citizens to take to the streets to protest peacefully about something they clearly feel strongly about. I believe the police already have the powers to step in should things get out of hand.
For instance not that long ago we had protests in Bristol regarding the involvement of Edward Colston in historic charitable donations funded, in part, by his involvement in the slave trade. To my knowledge, & I again stand to be corrected, no charges were brought against the people who tore down his statue & threw it in the harbour. Is that action not getting out of hand????
Surely consistency in decisions/actions by the law makers and law enforcers is what is needed not more power for the state over law abiding citizens.
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Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 29 March 2023 at 8:12am
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i don't condone anything but we would still be paying the poll tax now if we'd have marched with placards and just chanted sometimes things are so unfair it takes stronger action
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Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 29 March 2023 at 8:59am
ladram wrote:
i don't condone anything but we would still be paying the poll tax now if we'd have marched with placards and just chanted sometimes things are so unfair it takes stronger action |
I hear what you are saying Nigel but where do we draw the line - setting fire to the public offices in Bordeaux??? Its a tough one & I certainly don't have the answers. Without a shadow of doubt there would not be Northern Ireland peace agreement if the IRA had only protested peacefully nor bi-lingual Welsh signs if some holiday homes had not been destroyed.
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Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 29 March 2023 at 10:01am
GPR - Rochester wrote:
ladram wrote:
i don't condone anything but we would still be paying the poll tax now if we'd have marched with placards and just chanted sometimes things are so unfair it takes stronger action |
I hear what you are saying Nigel but where do we draw the line - setting fire to the public offices in Bordeaux??? Its a tough one & I certainly don't have the answers. Without a shadow of doubt there would not be Northern Ireland peace agreement if the IRA had only protested peacefully nor bi-lingual Welsh signs if some holiday homes had not been destroyed. |
It's clear our own Government are adopting a very authoritarian approach. For example, blocking roads and slow marching hurts nobody. The UK Government wish to give police powers to arrest people doing so. In fact, anything deemed as "disruptive" can be dealt with similarly. So as long as you protest quietly where it doesn't impact anyone else please carry on. Otherwise, we can arrest you at any point, even before the protest has started. Sounds like something Putin would do.
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Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 29 March 2023 at 10:06am
dr_martinov wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
ladram wrote:
i don't condone anything but we would still be paying the poll tax now if we'd have marched with placards and just chanted sometimes things are so unfair it takes stronger action |
I hear what you are saying Nigel but where do we draw the line - setting fire to the public offices in Bordeaux??? Its a tough one & I certainly don't have the answers. Without a shadow of doubt there would not be Northern Ireland peace agreement if the IRA had only protested peacefully nor bi-lingual Welsh signs if some holiday homes had not been destroyed. |
It's clear our own Government are adopting a very authoritarian approach. For example, blocking roads and slow marching hurts nobody. The UK Government wish to give police powers to arrest people doing so. In fact, anything deemed as "disruptive" can be dealt with similarly. So as long as you protest quietly where it doesn't impact anyone else please carry on. Otherwise, we can arrest you at any point, even before the protest has started. Sounds like something Putin would do.
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Very much so Dr. M. Police have more than enough powers at the moment.
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Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 29 March 2023 at 10:35am
GPR - Rochester wrote:
Climate change is a World problem and needs global action. To date there has been a lot of talk about targets but very little on the ground action. Please correct me anyone as I will admit to a limited knowledge here. From my own little village I see opportunities for long term planning being wasted. I will cite one example. My best mate decided to move into a house 4 doors down from us. The property needed extensive modernisation but despite his best efforts no real help was forthcoming from government agencies which resulted in him fitting a new oil boiler.
I know one of the people posting on this thread will have a lot more knowledge in this field of solar & alternative heating systems so it would be great to have his input - over to you Rob of Bont!!!! |
Well I wouldn't call myself an expert GPR, and a little knowledge is dangerous, but here we go.....
First of all, RR has a point, the climate problems of our planet are not going to be solved by anything we do in the UK, the problems need to be addressed in Asia and South America. That's a whole subject in itself but good luck to anyone trying to get those countries to adopt green technologies any time soon.
Yes we in the UK have to 'do our bit' but what does that actually mean? Does it mean totally decarbonising the UK at great expense to our citizens only to find we haven't even touched the surface of the real global problem. When people talk about sustainability they usually wrongly think its all about the environment - it isn't. There are three pillars to sustainability namely Environment, Social and economic. You have to get the balance right between all three. A good example of where we are getting it wrong in Wales is the M4 Relief Road past Newport. I know posters have cited this as a good example of the way forward but it isn't; it's a total disaster and the decision not to build it goes against all the advice given by Welsh Government's own advisors. We haven't got the sustainability balance right here at all.
Anyway, on to the question. When talking about energy there's another pillar - security of supply. It's good to look at how our villages can be greener and more secure in our energy supply. Our Government want's us to move to heat pumps, solar, maybe hydrogen in time but they need to be honest with us - it's going to cost. At the moment I don't think the incentives are high enough to make anyone go green. Maybe this needs to move to a different thread. 
-------------
In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.
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Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 29 March 2023 at 11:49am
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Good post but unfortunately the government is full of ministers with financial incentive not to actually go green , one of the main reason why shell and others don't pay windfall tax , let alone corporation tax ...Yesterday shell wanted all future investors to be anti green , and to campaign against any future ecology based ideology ....regarding other parts of the world , well it's the west's demand for cheap technology , our demand and especially the European market are the ultimate aim to sell too , without the demand there would be no production ...Apparently USA make most of their items at home .... Interestingly the politicians in the UK who talk the talk but definitely don't walk the walk , the ones who allow sewerage to be dumped into rivers and seas , will be looking to be lifted above the suffering that the rest of us have to deal with ... What the frightening thing is that we only have one planet , there is no where else for us to go to ...we ruin this one and it's game over
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Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 29 March 2023 at 11:59am
Oracle wrote:
Good post but unfortunately the government is full of ministers with financial incentive not to actually go green , one of the main reason why shell and others don't pay windfall tax , let alone corporation tax ...Yesterday shell wanted all future investors to be anti green , and to campaign against any future ecology based ideology ....regarding other parts of the world , well it's the west's demand for cheap technology , our demand and especially the European market are the ultimate aim to sell too , without the demand there would be no production ...Apparently USA make most of their items at home ....Interestingly the politicians in the UK who talk the talk but definitely don't walk the walk , the ones who allow sewerage to be dumped into rivers and seas , will be looking to be lifted above the suffering that the rest of us have to deal with ... What the frightening thing is that we only have one planet , there is no where else for us to go to ...we ruin this one and it's game over |
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Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 29 March 2023 at 12:00pm
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
Climate change is a World problem and needs global action. To date there has been a lot of talk about targets but very little on the ground action. Please correct me anyone as I will admit to a limited knowledge here. From my own little village I see opportunities for long term planning being wasted. I will cite one example. My best mate decided to move into a house 4 doors down from us. The property needed extensive modernisation but despite his best efforts no real help was forthcoming from government agencies which resulted in him fitting a new oil boiler.
I know one of the people posting on this thread will have a lot more knowledge in this field of solar & alternative heating systems so it would be great to have his input - over to you Rob of Bont!!!! |
Well I wouldn't call myself an expert GPR, and a little knowledge is dangerous, but here we go.....
First of all, RR has a point, the climate problems of our planet are not going to be solved by anything we do in the UK, the problems need to be addressed in Asia and South America. That's a whole subject in itself but good luck to anyone trying to get those countries to adopt green technologies any time soon.
Yes we in the UK have to 'do our bit' but what does that actually mean? Does it mean totally decarbonising the UK at great expense to our citizens only to find we haven't even touched the surface of the real global problem. When people talk about sustainability they usually wrongly think its all about the environment - it isn't. There are three pillars to sustainability namely Environment, Social and economic. You have to get the balance right between all three. A good example of where we are getting it wrong in Wales is the M4 Relief Road past Newport. I know posters have cited this as a good example of the way forward but it isn't; it's a total disaster and the decision not to build it goes against all the advice given by Welsh Government's own advisors. We haven't got the sustainability balance right here at all.
Anyway, on to the question. When talking about energy there's another pillar - security of supply. It's good to look at how our villages can be greener and more secure in our energy supply. Our Government want's us to move to heat pumps, solar, maybe hydrogen in time but they need to be honest with us - it's going to cost. At the moment I don't think the incentives are high enough to make anyone go green. Maybe this needs to move to a different thread. |
Thanks Rob - great info.
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Posted By: ap sior
Date Posted: 29 March 2023 at 12:57pm
GPR - Rochester wrote:
ladram wrote:
i don't condone anything but we would still be paying the poll tax now if we'd have marched with placards and just chanted sometimes things are so unfair it takes stronger action |
I hear what you are saying Nigel but where do we draw the line - setting fire to the public offices in Bordeaux??? Its a tough one & I certainly don't have the answers. Without a shadow of doubt there would not be Northern Ireland peace agreement if the IRA had only protested peacefully nor bi-lingual Welsh signs if some holiday homes had not been destroyed. |
Don't foget there'd be no SAC without Gwynfor Evans' threat to fast to death. On that point, a few weeks ago I went to see 'Y Swn' about the story to establish the channel. Duplicity by Thatcher's government, who in their 1979 election manifesto promised a Welsh language channel for Wales, but as soon as they got in to power went back on their word.
By the way, Y Swn is well worth seeing. The main language is Welsh with parts in English when the scene switches to Whitelaw, Nicholas Edwards and Thatcher. However, the parts spoken in Welsh are well subtitled. I can heartily recommend it
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Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 29 March 2023 at 1:30pm
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Following on from Rob’s posts earlier, the best money you can spend is in insulation. Enough of that, eliminating any thermal bridges etc is money very well deployed. Then the heat you want stays in and needs less boosting.
Some builders have to use lots of sticky tape ahead of their air tests in order to pass the required standard. Then, the tape comes off and you’ve an altogether less pleasant result and what would be a fail.
Passivhaus from Germany originally is an excellent way to go for those starting off.
Re GPR’s best mate neighbour, was any thought given to domestic wind turbines? Not the most slightly of things, they can be excellent amongst the windy spots of high up in West Wales, or anywhere else for that matter. Also, was solar explored at all?
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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.
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Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 29 March 2023 at 2:04pm
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
GPR - Rochester wrote:
Climate change is a World problem and needs global action. To date there has been a lot of talk about targets but very little on the ground action. Please correct me anyone as I will admit to a limited knowledge here. From my own little village I see opportunities for long term planning being wasted. I will cite one example. My best mate decided to move into a house 4 doors down from us. The property needed extensive modernisation but despite his best efforts no real help was forthcoming from government agencies which resulted in him fitting a new oil boiler.
I know one of the people posting on this thread will have a lot more knowledge in this field of solar & alternative heating systems so it would be great to have his input - over to you Rob of Bont!!!! |
Well I wouldn't call myself an expert GPR, and a little knowledge is dangerous, but here we go.....
First of all, RR has a point, the climate problems of our planet are not going to be solved by anything we do in the UK, the problems need to be addressed in Asia and South America. That's a whole subject in itself but good luck to anyone trying to get those countries to adopt green technologies any time soon.
Yes we in the UK have to 'do our bit' but what does that actually mean? Does it mean totally decarbonising the UK at great expense to our citizens only to find we haven't even touched the surface of the real global problem. When people talk about sustainability they usually wrongly think its all about the environment - it isn't. There are three pillars to sustainability namely Environment, Social and economic. You have to get the balance right between all three. A good example of where we are getting it wrong in Wales is the M4 Relief Road past Newport. I know posters have cited this as a good example of the way forward but it isn't; it's a total disaster and the decision not to build it goes against all the advice given by Welsh Government's own advisors. We haven't got the sustainability balance right here at all.
Anyway, on to the question. When talking about energy there's another pillar - security of supply. It's good to look at how our villages can be greener and more secure in our energy supply. Our Government want's us to move to heat pumps, solar, maybe hydrogen in time but they need to be honest with us - it's going to cost. At the moment I don't think the incentives are high enough to make anyone go green. Maybe this needs to move to a different thread. |
Well, if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem springs to mind but ultimately there's truth in that and few real solutions are being considered by any Government, let alone the world-wide scale that is needed.
As a parallel, but something which irritates me a bit is the way nuclear power is described as sustainable and even renewable by some, attempting to present it favourably to the public. It still uses a fuel - uranium or plutonium - that there is a finite amount of. Present uranium resources will last for 90 years or so. Nuclear fusion has yet to be developed at all so is within the magic bullet category of "solution" that I think is simply can-kicking. So why am I bringing this up? Well, Hunt recently was trying to get nuclear power to be classed as sustainable essentially for financial benefit for the industry and political gain. Is it better than fossil fuels? Yes, as there is reduced CO2 emitted. Is it sustainable? No. Why people are fed these mistruths by politicians and their agenda, particularly when their agenda are for personal gain for them or their business associates, is why I have little hope anything useful will be done in time to combat the climate crisis.
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Posted By: ladram
Date Posted: 29 March 2023 at 2:10pm
GPR - Rochester wrote:
Oracle wrote:
Good post but unfortunately the government is full of ministers with financial incentive not to actually go green , one of the main reason why shell and others don't pay windfall tax , let alone corporation tax ...Yesterday shell wanted all future investors to be anti green , and to campaign against any future ecology based ideology ....regarding other parts of the world , well it's the west's demand for cheap technology , our demand and especially the European market are the ultimate aim to sell too , without the demand there would be no production ...Apparently USA make most of their items at home ....Interestingly the politicians in the UK who talk the talk but definitely don't walk the walk , the ones who allow sewerage to be dumped into rivers and seas , will be looking to be lifted above the suffering that the rest of us have to deal with ... What the frightening thing is that we only have one planet , there is no where else for us to go to ...we ruin this one and it's game over |
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I find myself in the scary situation of joining the applause Gareth |
Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 29 March 2023 at 3:12pm
Oracle wrote:
Good post but unfortunately the government is full of ministers with financial incentive not to actually go green , one of the main reason why shell and others don't pay windfall tax , let alone corporation tax ...Interestingly the politicians in the UK who talk the talk but definitely don't walk the walk , the ones who allow sewerage to be dumped into rivers and seas , will be looking to be lifted above the suffering that the rest of us have to deal with ... What the frightening thing is that we only have one planet , there is no where else for us to go to ...we ruin this one and it's game over |
Good post - and quite right.
One point I don't recall being mentioned often enough is David Cameron's terrible decision on the environment, when he promised to "cut the green crap". Short-term thinking at its worst:
David Cameron’s promise in 2013 to “cut the green crap” will cost millions of households around £170 each when energy prices spike this spring, a new report has claimed. Analysis from the Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit (ECIU) showed that households could have saved a combined £1.5 billion in the next financial year if insulation continued to be installed at the same rate as a decade ago. In 2012, around 2.3 million homes added new insulation, but since 2013 this has collapsed to just around 230,000 homes, ECIU said. Insulation “The rate of insulating homes has crashed since 2012 through cut backs on helping households reduce energy waste,” said Darren Jones, a Labour MP who chairs the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee. “The true cost of this short-termist thinking is now coming home to roost for millions of families struggling to pay their bills.” These homes installed either insulation and cavity or solid wall insulation, something which the group said was enough to slash gas usage by 20 percent. The UK has the worst insulated homes in Europe, according to a 2020 survey by thermostat maker Tado. If outside temperatures are at freezing, UK homes heated to 20 degrees will lose three degrees in five hours. In Norway, homes just lose 0.9 degrees in the same time under the same conditions, and even in warmer countries the insulation is better. https://theecologist.org/2022/jan/25/cameron-cut-green-crap-costs-ps15-billion" rel="nofollow - https://theecologist.org/2022/jan/25/cameron-cut-green-crap-costs-ps15-billion Cameron has a lot to answer for, IMO.
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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 29 March 2023 at 3:20pm
RR1972 wrote:
I’m not overly familiar with the bill so plesse feel to expand. Anyhow I ll await further info on this new law
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My pleasure: here is an extract from the report of a Parliamentary Committee:
New policing powers risk creating a hostile environment for peaceful protestors, the Joint Committee on Human Rights warns in a report published following legislative scrutiny of the Public Order Bill. Designed to combat disruptive protests, the draft legislation would instead have a ‘chilling effect’ on the right to peaceful protest, putting fundamental democratic rights at risk. - https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/jt5803/jtselect/jtrights/351/report.html" rel="nofollow - Read the Full Report
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/jt5803/jtselect/jtrights/351/summary.html" rel="nofollow - Read the Report Summary
The Government has introduced the Bill to give the police in England and Wales greater powers to deal with protests that are peaceful but disruptive. It adds to changes made to the law on protest by the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022, which the Committee previously criticised for threatening the right to protest. It includes new criminal offences for ‘locking-on’ or disrupting transport works and national infrastructure, greater powers for stop and search, and would create Serious Disruption Prevention Orders. The report highlights that the right to freedom of expression and freedom of assembly are protected under Articles 10 and 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights, and urges the Government to revise the Bill to ensure that these rights are respected. https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/93/human-rights-joint-committee/news/171503/government-creating-hostile-environment-for-peaceful-protest-report-finds/ Lest you think this is some sort of lefty cabal, may I also include a link to the membership? 12 members, including 5 Conservatives: https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/93/human-rights-joint-committee/membership/
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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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Posted By: dr_martinov
Date Posted: 29 March 2023 at 6:17pm
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This is powerful stuff:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/29/uk-green-day-fossil-fuel-dirty-money-sunak-renewables" rel="nofollow - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/29/uk-green-day-fossil-fuel-dirty-money-sunak-renewables
It's easy (and true) to blame the Conservatives but they themselves are a result of "the pollution paradox" in that they are influenced and even led by said rich, but polluting, industries. I would extend this paradox to say that the "nasty" politics of right-wing authoritarianism that is inherently for the benefit of a wealthy minority also generates a similar paradox: if it is to ever to get elected it must dominate PR, media, propaganda. In the majority, it then usually uses these to invoke emotion, nationalism, hate and fear combined with aspects of snobbery and that voters can become one of the rich minority (or aspire to do so). This is not helped by our FPTP system; the major competition essentially has to fight over the same swing voters to get elected. So they in turn will also be filtered for the above and no solutions will be put forward.
If only we could harness political bullpoo as a fuel: now that would be truly sustainable.
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Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 29 March 2023 at 6:24pm
aber-fan wrote:
Oracle wrote:
Good post but unfortunately the government is full of ministers with financial incentive not to actually go green , one of the main reason why shell and others don't pay windfall tax , let alone corporation tax ...Interestingly the politicians in the UK who talk the talk but definitely don't walk the walk , the ones who allow sewerage to be dumped into rivers and seas , will be looking to be lifted above the suffering that the rest of us have to deal with ... What the frightening thing is that we only have one planet , there is no where else for us to go to ...we ruin this one and it's game over |
Good post - and quite right.
One point I don't recall being mentioned often enough is David Cameron's terrible decision on the environment, when he promised to "cut the green crap". Short-term thinking at its worst:
David Cameron’s promise in 2013 to “cut the green crap” will cost millions of households around £170 each when energy prices spike this spring, a new report has claimed. Analysis from the Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit (ECIU) showed that households could have saved a combined £1.5 billion in the next financial year if insulation continued to be installed at the same rate as a decade ago. In 2012, around 2.3 million homes added new insulation, but since 2013 this has collapsed to just around 230,000 homes, ECIU said. Insulation “The rate of insulating homes has crashed since 2012 through cut backs on helping households reduce energy waste,” said Darren Jones, a Labour MP who chairs the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee. “The true cost of this short-termist thinking is now coming home to roost for millions of families struggling to pay their bills.” These homes installed either insulation and cavity or solid wall insulation, something which the group said was enough to slash gas usage by 20 percent. The UK has the worst insulated homes in Europe, according to a 2020 survey by thermostat maker Tado. If outside temperatures are at freezing, UK homes heated to 20 degrees will lose three degrees in five hours. In Norway, homes just lose 0.9 degrees in the same time under the same conditions, and even in warmer countries the insulation is better. https://theecologist.org/2022/jan/25/cameron-cut-green-crap-costs-ps15-billion" rel="nofollow - https://theecologist.org/2022/jan/25/cameron-cut-green-crap-costs-ps15-billion Cameron has a lot to answer for, IMO. |
Brilliant stat on insulation, Aber.
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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.
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Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 29 March 2023 at 6:32pm
aber-fan wrote:
RR1972 wrote:
I’m not overly familiar with the bill so plesse feel to expand. Anyhow I ll await further info on this new law
|
My pleasure: here is an extract from the report of a Parliamentary Committee:
New policing powers risk creating a hostile environment for peaceful protestors, the Joint Committee on Human Rights warns in a report published following legislative scrutiny of the Public Order Bill. Designed to combat disruptive protests, the draft legislation would instead have a ‘chilling effect’ on the right to peaceful protest, putting fundamental democratic rights at risk. - https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/jt5803/jtselect/jtrights/351/report.html" rel="nofollow - Read the Full Report
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/jt5803/jtselect/jtrights/351/summary.html" rel="nofollow - Read the Report Summary
The Government has introduced the Bill to give the police in England and Wales greater powers to deal with protests that are peaceful but disruptive. It adds to changes made to the law on protest by the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022, which the Committee previously criticised for threatening the right to protest. It includes new criminal offences for ‘locking-on’ or disrupting transport works and national infrastructure, greater powers for stop and search, and would create Serious Disruption Prevention Orders. The report highlights that the right to freedom of expression and freedom of assembly are protected under Articles 10 and 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights, and urges the Government to revise the Bill to ensure that these rights are respected. https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/93/human-rights-joint-committee/news/171503/government-creating-hostile-environment-for-peaceful-protest-report-finds/ Lest you think this is some sort of lefty cabal, may I also include a link to the membership? 12 members, including 5 Conservatives: https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/93/human-rights-joint-committee/membership/ |
seems v draconian has it been passed?, people must be able to legally protest lthough i dont agree with people chucking paint over works of art not sure whar purpose that serves
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Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 30 March 2023 at 7:08am
Eastern outpost wrote:
Following on from Rob’s posts earlier, the best money you can spend is in insulation. Enough of that, eliminating any thermal bridges etc is money very well deployed. Then the heat you want stays in and needs less boosting.
Some builders have to use lots of sticky tape ahead of their air tests in order to pass the required standard. Then, the tape comes off and you’ve an altogether less pleasant result and what would be a fail.
Passivhaus from Germany originally is an excellent way to go for those starting off.
Re GPR’s best mate neighbour, was any thought given to domestic wind turbines? Not the most slightly of things, they can be excellent amongst the windy spots of high up in West Wales, or anywhere else for that matter. Also, was solar explored at all? |
Excellent point regarding insulation. My best mate did not look into turbines as far as I am aware but he did look at solar extensively but proved quite costly bearing in mind a lack of incentives which, with 2035 emission targets, you would have expected.
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Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 30 March 2023 at 8:08am
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With solar , make sure that you have capacity for storage above 300% what the system generates...The reason for this is that the power companies payment for you to sell your excess generated power is around 3p per kw , whilst they charge you a lot lot more the other way round ....it's just not worth the sale , but it's financially better to just store it and use it for yourself
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Posted By: GPR - Rochester
Date Posted: 30 March 2023 at 8:31am
Oracle wrote:
With solar , make sure that you have capacity for storage above 300% what the system generates...The reason for this is that the power companies payment for you to sell your excess generated power is around 3p per kw , whilst they charge you a lot lot more the other way round ....it's just not worth the sale , but it's financially better to just store it and use it for yourself |
A good point. Recent unit costs are 30-34p so the costs of storage capacity become far more justifiable. Another restriction that we came up with living where we do is the capacity of our local system to take any excess power generated. Of course that becomes redundant if storage facility is high enough.
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Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 30 March 2023 at 10:29am
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This just published today.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1147340/powering-up-britain-joint-overview.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1147340/powering-up-britain-joint-overview.pdf
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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.
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Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 30 March 2023 at 12:43pm
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
This just published today.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1147340/powering-up-britain-joint-overview.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1147340/powering-up-britain-joint-overview.pdf
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Look forward to your précis, Rob.
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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.
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Posted By: Eastern outpost
Date Posted: 30 March 2023 at 12:46pm
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A further point re insulation came to mind when driving and listening to Jeremy Vine phone in on this very topic.
Worth some time catching up via BBC Sounds - it’s the first topic today.
Back to the thought that came to mind. An uninsulated house is like using a sieve for something you want to be watertight. It’s such a waste of time and money. Get the insulation maximised and there are grants still for this, I believe, although not sure to what extent. Any improvement is worthwhile.
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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.
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Posted By: Rob o'r Bont
Date Posted: 30 March 2023 at 1:19pm
Eastern outpost wrote:
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
This just published today.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1147340/powering-up-britain-joint-overview.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1147340/powering-up-britain-joint-overview.pdf
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Look forward to your précis, Rob. |
Basically we're going all electric Steve. Heat pumps and electric heaters of all shapes and sizes. Sounds good in theory but lots of issues to be unpacked.
On the subject of insulation - yes brilliant idea and very important to get the fabric of your house as energy efficient as possible.
There's an old Eskimo saying - 'if you want to keep your feet warm, wear a hat'. So for starters, people need to turf out all their rubbish from the attic to enable insulation to be placed there - this is where most energy is lost. Then think carefully about wall insulation as this can go horribly wrong if it's not done properly.
Another good tip - reflective foil behind your radiator will prevent heat from seeping out through walls. I'm here all week.
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In a world where you can be anything – Be Kind.
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Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 30 March 2023 at 4:23pm
RR1972 wrote:
[/QUOT |
seems v draconian has it been passed?, people must be able to legally protest lthough i dont agree with people chucking paint over works of art not sure whar purpose that serves
[/QUOTE]
Draconian is right - it was passed in the Commons towards the end of 2022, and has been in the Lords where a number of amendments were made. The latest info. I managed to dig up on the Internet is in this piece , but there are other sources out there as well:
https://eachother.org.uk/the-public-order-bill-set-to-become-law-know-your-rights/" rel="nofollow - https://eachother.org.uk/the-public-order-bill-set-to-become-law-know-your-rights/
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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 30 March 2023 at 6:12pm
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
Eastern outpost wrote:
Rob o'r Bont wrote:
This just published today.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1147340/powering-up-britain-joint-overview.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1147340/powering-up-britain-joint-overview.pdf
|
Look forward to your précis, Rob. |
Basically we're going all electric Steve. Heat pumps and electric heaters of all shapes and sizes. Sounds good in theory but lots of issues to be unpacked.
On the subject of insulation - yes brilliant idea and very important to get the fabric of your house as energy efficient as possible.
There's an old Eskimo saying - 'if you want to keep your feet warm, wear a hat'. So for starters, people need to turf out all their rubbish from the attic to enable insulation to be placed there - this is where most energy is lost. Then think carefully about wall insulation as this can go horribly wrong if it's not done properly.
Another good tip - reflective foil behind your radiator will prevent heat from seeping out through walls. I'm here all week. |
to quote an old coach of mine if your cold your not running enough! Don’t suppose that holds much sway with oaps in winter in fairness!
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Posted By: RR1972
Date Posted: 30 March 2023 at 6:16pm
aber-fan wrote:
RR1972 wrote:
|
seems v draconian has it been passed?, people must be able to legally protest lthough i dont agree with people chucking paint over works of art not sure whar purpose that serves
|
Draconian is right - it was passed in the Commons towards the end of 2022, and has been in the Lords where a number of amendments were made. The latest info. I managed to dig up on the Internet is in this piece , but there are other sources out there as well:
https://eachother.org.uk/the-public-order-bill-set-to-become-law-know-your-rights/" rel="nofollow - https://eachother.org.uk/the-public-order-bill-set-to-become-law-know-your-rights/
[/QUOTE] tbh i have no issues with people striking or protesting. I still think these activisits need to be told that their efforts are doing the square root of sod all globally though, maybe they shoulf try direct action against the real mass polluters of greenhouse gases but they seem reluctant to . As for strikers the withdrawal of labour is a fundemtal hunan right imo
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Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 30 March 2023 at 8:17pm
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Wow , the UK should be in Sweden as we have the biggest ever recorded case of Stockholm syndrome ever seen https://twitter.com/Taff25022320/status/1641491980902445095?t=OsXh3gw8yTHp9jwI0zuyGw&s=19" rel="nofollow - https://twitter.com/Taff25022320/status/1641491980902445095?t=OsXh3gw8yTHp9jwI0zuyGw&s=19
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Posted By: aber-fan
Date Posted: 31 March 2023 at 2:13pm
Oracle wrote:
Wow , the UK should be in Sweden as we have the biggest ever recorded case of Stockholm syndrome ever seen https://twitter.com/Taff25022320/status/1641491980902445095?t=OsXh3gw8yTHp9jwI0zuyGw&s=19" rel="nofollow - https://twitter.com/Taff25022320/status/1641491980902445095?t=OsXh3gw8yTHp9jwI0zuyGw&s=19
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The Tory policy is perfectly simple - those wealthy types can do as much or as little work as they want, and quit when they like.
The rest - with any luck they'll die before they reach state pension age. Tough!
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“You cannot reason a man out of what he never reasoned himself into.” (Jonathan Swift)
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Posted By: Oracle
Date Posted: 31 March 2023 at 3:05pm
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Remember...our suffering fuels their Gravy Train
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