BBC News - Dover delays clear after 'buffer zone' empties

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65159684" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65159684

Thats a good question. I would have preferred a full Brexit not Norway but, & here comes the rub, managed by a competent government which were as one in agreement with the way forward. History has shown, so far at least, that extreme factions within the Conservative & Unionist sections have carried far too much weight in the decision making. 

I include the Unionists in this because I do not underestimate the negative impact that Unionist parties in Northern Ireland have had & continue to have in the debate. European leaders were, in my opinion, very ready to go that extra mile to keep Britain & all its huge benefits to the EU onside only to be slapped in the face by an ever increasingly bolshy Boris playing to his masters. My strongly held belief is that if we had a grown up leading the negotiations like Theresa May things would have turned out very differently. 

I think I'm going to agree with you ..what alternate reality have we entered 

Nirvana comes to those who wait & listen. 

There is a trade agreement isnt there?

FFS - those of us who always foresaw that it would be a disaster argued that the final agreement should be put to a vote: the vote we actually had was an 'advisory' one - no politician was obliged to press ahead with 'any old Brexit' regardless. But - no. We were not allowed to vote on the Boris deal. 

WRT to the channel story - as it happens, we caught a ferry to France on Saturday (a day late - not Brexit related - there was a storm and the sailing was postponed); when we got to Roscoff, disembarkation took all of 2 hours - before Brexit 45 min would have been 'top end' of bad luck - but now every passport has to be scanned and stamped. Bloody great!

As for 'was it a good idea in the first place'? My best friend had lived in the USA for 20 years and at the time of the vote was still there - all his family voted for Brexit - I told him it would be a mistake. He moved back 3 years ago - by now, that he's had time to absorb the results, he's even more fed up with Brexit than I am! So, that from an intelligent guy who was on the fence until his return.

Finally - the hypocrites. Nigel Lawson actively campaigned for Brexit, but chose to live his declining years in France. That exact option was removed from many retired elderly British people living in the EU - mainly Spain and France - because their access to medical care through reciprocal arrangements was removed, and many - the poorer ones - were forced to move back to the UK, where housing is more expensive and the weather is worse. Never mind - it should shave a few years off their life expectancy. (They were not allowed to vote on Brexit, BTW.) In the meantime, many young, working, taxpaying EU people - a lot in the NHS - returned home, not fancying the 'hostile environment' championed by one Theresa May and made even worse by Patel and Braverman.

Also mentioned in despatches: Rees-Mogg (arch-Brexiteer, he moved much of his financial operations to Dublin post-Brexit):

http://https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/jacob-reesmogg-defends-own-firm-after-it-moved-to-dublin-amid-hard-brexit-fears" rel="nofollow - http://https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/jacob-reesmogg-defends-own-firm-after-it-moved-to-dublin-amid-hard-brexit-fears

James Dyson of vacuum cleaner fame, who: "In 2019, Dyson announced the company's permanent move from the United Kingdom to Singapore, where its headquarters are at the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_James_Power_Station" rel="nofollow - St James Power Station  building. ^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_%28company%29#cite_note-:2-12" rel="nofollow - [12]}  Ever since, the company has conducted its base of operations out of Singapore, with its headquarters being the hub for Dyson's research and engineering teams, as well as commercial, advanced manufacturing and supply chain operations. ^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_%28company%29#cite_note-Poh-10" rel="nofollow - [10] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_%28company%29#cite_note-:2-12" rel="nofollow - [12]}  In 2022, Dyson announced that it would be investing a further S$1.5 billion in the country"

Some sense at last and from a remainer - I will mark this down in my diary. Those who wish to constantly rubbish a democratic vote should be very careful what they wish for. Cast a glance at what is going on in Russia & see what living without a free press and democracy looks like. 

RR you are quite correct of course - this EU oasis is pure fiction. For sure France & Germany may be doing Ok but look at the economies of Spain, Italy, Greece & Portugal. Even in France & Germany the rise in power of the far right is sending shock waves through their political establishments. For sure I did expect some grown up governance from any British government post Brexit but to rubbish the general principle because you are experiencing a small delay leaving the ferry FFS. The other favourite, of course, that is wheeled out is that some demons actually voted for Brexit and lo and behold the buggers now live in France. Why not?? You can still think its correct for Brexit but want to live somewhere in Europe - they are not mutually exclusive. 

I did hope that once the vote had taken place that the population would collectively move on but it appears that is not the case. Quite sad really. 

Thanks Roy - these facts really do get in the way of  a good story. 

Just trying to bring some balance back to the 1 eyed universe😂

Lets deal with that red herring first shall we. I accept that some parts of the Uk struggled with supply but I have to say my weekly privately owned veg stall in Llanybydder has been bursting with fresh veg since Xmas. Be that as it may there were two reasons given for the shortage - firstly British growers did not sow under heat because of the prodigious cost of fuel; secondly drought conditions in the Autumn/early winter in parts of Spain led to a shortage of product. Faced with the option of selling your goods to a market close to home or spending extra money sending them to the UK what would farmer Oracle do????

The 2nd red herring of course is that freedom of movement has caused an increase in costs. The biggest increase in costs has nothing whatsoever to do with freedom of movement it is the increased costs of fuel. As I have said I have been exporting to Europe for 15 years. The additional cost of paperwork etc is miniscule certainly when looked at in comparison to freight costs. If I had a finite amount of asparagus in my polytunnel and people in Carmarthenshire who would take all of it why the hell would I send it to Spain or Germany. Time to get real methinks!!!!

Oracle please point out what is incorrect about what I posted. Debate is fine and interesting but just writing off someone's views because they disagree with yours or ignoring the case I made is not really a debate is it? 

For every example like Aber's American based colleague/friend there will be a tale showing the opposite like a friend of mine from Cornwall who has now been able to carry on his families' fishing history which was ruined by too many overseas vessels in UK waters. These cases are facts of life which happen when any major political/financial decision is made. 

I'm glad you agree it happened and obviously we all know the real costs ...the problem of not getting a few peppers is really not the issue though is it , but obviously if you don't like peppers it doesn't affect you ....

Still using our peppers which we froze from our huge crop last season.

We have to move on as others are saying but for me, moving on means raising the level of political debate in this country out of the gutter so that we have a democracy that actually works for all, not just the few who have no doubt benefited at the expense of the many who are losing out.

Are you going to retract your mis-truth ?

Two things spring to mind Rob - the 65% - 35% whopper you state is in fact a poll is it not? 4 weeks before the Brexit vote the polls showed 60-40 in favour of remain. 

Welcome to this debate by the way. Much has been made over countless pages since Brexit of leavers not having been correctly informed. I am fascinated by what these facts are - I based my decision on a set of facts that are as relevant today as they were then so I would be very interested in what you mean. By the way please don't mention the bloody bus again. 

I hate to nit pick about facts Oracle but what the hell now that we are good mates. You quote 4% per annum fall in DGP - I think this is a guesstimate from the CBR. An actual figure I read recently was an overall fall of 5.5%. From my point of view with everything that has happened since Brexit - Worldwide pandemic and Russian invasion of Ukraine I would probably settle for this sort of figure. Of course we desperately need a new Government with fresh ideas to stimulate growth from now on. 

To answer your question, I think the main fact that people are disgruntled about is that they were all told that things would be better after Brexit but in fact they are worse. 

No water boarding, although the wine followed by the Guinness over quite a long time might be a nod towards such tactics, was involved. 

I love that Hotel California comment Rob. I can totally see that we are worse off now generally than we were before Brexit - I get it. My explanation though would place the reasons at the door of the pandemic, fuel crisis and shambolic governance rather than leaving the EU. 

At the time of leaving even with a steady tide it was going to take  a number of years before the financial benefits would show through to GDP; the actual choppy waters have, of course, lengthened that timescale considerably. If I had had a crystal ball which would have predicted the above circumstances I think I would have probably chosen to vote for steady as she goes rather than leave in all honesty.

It requires every passenger to get out of their vehicle and give fingerprints and be photographed. There’s a fee, of course. Can’t remember the exact details as its introduction has been postponed twice, maybe more.

iirc, the ETIAS last for 3 years. However, the havoc it will create when folk are getting them for the first time at the point of departure will be far worse than we’ve seen recently.

It’s great putting advance passenger info on the sites that allow/require this. If only something like that can be done for this then it would be great. However, how can you be sure to get the right fingerprints etc other than by a personal appearance somewhere?

The current visa system requires all applicants to turn up at Wandsworth, Manchester or Edinburgh with lots of info and proofs of various things - place to stay, health cover (a GHIC card) and adequate finances. Those are for visas of 6 months or 12 and other visas for studying or working off different lengths.

No politicians would remind those in the queues that its what they voted for. 

Inept & totally lacking foresight & ideas drowning in their self made quagmire of corruption, sleeze & perpetual self preservation of self profiteering. 

It's due to cynical electioneering from Johnson (a proven liar who many people were willing to vote in as PM) et al. in constant "campaign mode". Elected off the back of Brexit, and backed by most of our media, they polarised the issue to discredit any actual discussion; any criticism or proposal that differed to theirs was labelled a "betrayal" by people "who wanted to reverse Brexit" and so on.

There were multiple directions post-Brexit could have taken but this ended up being an internal power struggle in the ruling Government who were also maintaining their own power by describing themselves as the only party in favour of, and able to deliver, Brexit. 

Despite my view it was an error at the time, where I viewed the benefits of EU membership outweighing the cons, nothing has appeared to convince me otherwise as essentially no new benefits have appeared. My view is in part due to that deliberate polarisation above combined with the selection of Johnson as their leader, the Conservatives have ensured public trust in politicians is at an all time low so I wouldn't trust anything describing new deals as "world leading" and so on; this is just meaningless campaign talk yet again. You reap what you sow. But we can at least agree it has been mismanaged to an extreme level by a group of incompetent and corrupt politicians.

Well, Hallelujah!

I never thought I'd live long enough to read those words. 

Although you blame the downturn in the UK's economy on other factors, IMHO Brexit was a major contributor to how badly things have gone (I know those other factors played a not insignificant part too). The best way to judge that is to compare the UK economy with those of the larger EU countries - the UK has done significantly worse, even though Germany (for example) is far more dependent on Russian gas and oil than the UK.

Well, you are not telling the whole story though Roy.

I assume this 'deal' is the one negotiated by Boris Johnson - who then, two years later, threatened to tear it up himself!

"Boris Johnson on Monday defied a chorus of criticism and published legislation to rip up his 2020 Brexit deal with the EU, insisting there was “no other way” of protecting the peace process in Northern Ireland."

(Financial Times, June 13 2022)

https://www.ft.com/content/02891815-4ee5-4dfb-9241-31c7b592aeef" rel="nofollow - https://www.ft.com/content/02891815-4ee5-4dfb-9241-31c7b592aeef

I wouldn't celebrate too much Aber - I did say if I had a crystal ball. Every major economy in the world bar none suffered severely as a result of covid. The basic reasons why I voted leave are as pertinent today as back then & I would vote exactly the same way if there is another vote with one proviso - that we have a functioning, honest government who are all aligned behind the policy. 

With respect to delays at passport control - two stories from personal experience:

1. Coaches - my wife used to take groups of up to 50 kids to France on exchange visits. She had to gather all this information about the pupils - their names and addresses, parents, passport numbers etc - and all of this info was put on two sheets of paper and presented at passport control along with the passports - which were not even looked at, usually. The process took around 10 minutes for the two documents to be stamped. Now, every single passport must be looked at and stamped individually - I have seen a time of around 2h quoted per coach, which seems realistic.

2. Coming off the ferry on Sunday morning, we had to spend 2h to clear immigration instead of the maximum of 45min in the past - each passport had to be scanned and stamped. 

Great, innit?

... but every major economy in the world has recovered faster and better than the UK.

Your explanation?

My explanation - two simple words - poor governance. 

In years of PS (Passport Stamping) Eurotunnel are very efficient and 2 passports take less than a minute at the French booth and less at the prior UK booth. 

With the checks for Covid vaccinations etc you could double that probably.

Ferry wise - it’s easier for pet control as your dogs stay in the car and you wave the microchip reader over each dog (one at a time). They check it matches the documents and your dog’s jabs are in accordance with requirements - a couple of mins per dog/cat/ferret/ whatever.

The longest queue we’ve ever had coming off a ferry was just after the Bataclan shooting, iirc, and every car was searched. it took us nearly 2 hours from docking to leaving the port, although we were almost last off.

This week’s trip via the tunnel and an overnight stop near Rouen saw us have a coffee break next morning south of Le Mans. There, we were surprised to see lots of British numberplates and more arrived while we were there. They’d come off the morning arrival from Portsmouth at Caen. Yes it took longer, folk said. One guy was in the early batch of cars off and it took him 40 mins. He hated to think how long for the later cars.

It is what it is now. It was easy now it’s worse. 

It’s anticipating it and coping with it. It will get worse with the ETIAS system unless some bright thinking finds an improved solution. However, that would require optimism of a huge scale.

Those with the ability to travel mid-week and off-peak will fare far better than those fixed to Friday/Saturday travel.

https://twitter.com/YesCymru/status/1643985251595857920?t=1Jwr2XfJCiqZzJqLBF-nBQ&s=19" rel="nofollow - https://twitter.com/YesCymru/status/1643985251595857920?t=1Jwr2XfJCiqZzJqLBF-nBQ&s=19

Ah, there we go: the British audiobook market is booming because of Brexit!