15. Murray 14. LRZ 13. Llewelyn 12. Thomas 11. Rogers 10. Edwards 9. Tomos

1. Smith 2. Lake 3. Griffin 4. Beard 5. Jenkins 6. Wainwright 7. Morgan 8. Cracknell

16. Belcher 17. Carre 18. Assiratti 19. Thomas 20. Plumtree 21. Hardy 22. Hawkins 23. Tompkins

Think the main issue is that Argentina are match ready, warmed up so to speak, after just finishing the rugby championship. The may have finished bottom, but when you look how competitive they were, they'll be hungry for us.

We haven't played since July, and only just beat Japan. We've also lost our previous 9 games in Cardiff 

I really hope it isn't, but I have a feeling that we'll be steam-rollered 

Imagine if the 10 players in the 23 played who play elsewhere played for a region, how much that would improve welsh rugby (plus all the others not featuring). Ireland must look at that and laugh knowing that a large part of our issue IS not keeping the players at home. 

My first reaction was the same but then I ask the following questions - Assiratti plays most weeks Griffin is 4th choice at Bath, Ben Thomas is better than Tompkins & what has Hawkins done to take the shirt, is Plumtree a better bet than Mann? Who else is there with Ryan & Dee injured? 

I would have gone with Cracknell at 8 with Wainwright at 6 but lets face it we are at rock bottom & floundering. I wish Tandy luck - he is going to need it. 

The Cardiff love in continues Asseratti would not be a pro rugby player in any other of the top 12 nations let alone an international. 

What the hell do they see in Ben Thomas. 

Past caring the whole of Welsh rugby is a laughing stock, perhaps worse than that people are now starting to pity the game in Wales. 

Good luck to them but I can see it being a long afternoon 

I agree with you about Griffin - he's 24 & needs to be playing week in week out. Love to sign him. Think Henry Thomas' age is against him possibly.

I think Mann has played well for Cardiff. Personally I'd like to have seen Plumtree involved though. He and Mann both have the dog needed at this level.

In defence of Ben Thomas - watching the Cardiff games, he does stand out as a class above most of the other players. He just has more time, does a lot of little things well. I think the criticism he receives is a bit much and potentially rooted in the fact there are several Scarlets players who offer alternatives. But just IMHO.

Cannot disagree. Mann & Thomas have played well for Cardiff this season. I am glad Cracknells involved as he has been excellent for Tigers for two seasons. 

Not sure Sela is ahead of Griffin yet in rugby terms but given the credit system on top of the salary cap in the Prem there are incentives to play English qualified players and get them in the international system. Griffin has a big call as last season he was starting some Premiership cup and European games and probably won’t get that chance while Bath see if Sela can step up - but equally Bath will be reluctant to let him go until they have figured that out and probably like the luxury of 2 top tight heads and 2 developing players.

He’s never stood out in a Welsh shirt nothing to do with Scarlets bias as I agree none of our centres deserve to be there on form. apparently Tomkins ripping up the Premiership and as we all know that’s a class above the URC. Kieran Williams would also have been a better option playing well for Ospreys. 

Thomas is a much better player with a much wider skillset and much higher ceiling than Keiron Williams. I don't know if Thomas would be my long-term 12 for Wales (I think Emmanuel will be there in a few years if he stays at 12). I would also say Eddie James has potential as a different option if he can get some form. But I can see why he's in there.

My thoughts exactly.

Quite a few 50:50 calls have gone Cardiff's way this time... we'll see how they get on. I won't claim that the alternatives are clearly any better. 

The fact hes 4th choice at Bath says a lot about how strong Bath are.

https://www.rugbypass.com/united-rugby-championship/stats/" rel="nofollow - https://www.rugbypass.com/united-rugby-championship/stats/

The stats don't back up your argument. Yes, Williams has made more metres, but less clean breaks and the carries per minute arent much more. Says more about the way Cardiff and Ospreys use them both respectfully. 

But Thomas's defense is marginally better. 
 

But I would agree that I don't think either are the best option long-term by far. Thomas makes a good bench player though for cover. 

If they are accurate whoever is in that Welsh midfield is in for a workout. Edwards & Thomas are not renowned for their defence so the 10/12 channel will get their attention with the Argentinian blindside runners looking to flood the 13 channel. Roof open & prey for bad weather & they could hold them. 

LRZ waste of bench place you are fit to start or don’t play, for me another forward on bench, we are going to need them.

We will see?

Agreed 

I’m here and I’ve seen it worse. Not much mind. Atmosphere isn’t bad surprisingly. 

O’Keeffe really was keen to give a red. It felt he would’ve clutched at any available straw. Meanwhile, the guy who did make contact and hung on to Ben Thomas for far too long escaped Scot-free. 

You should tell him 25% of pundits don't deserve pro contracts, he'd like that. 

Free nhs tickets. I meet my son up here with a freebie every autumn game. WRU are scum but I’m not stopping a family tradition because of them as I’m sure most others wouldn’t. 

I can guarantee your making the atmosphere better ....well maybe not lol 

Looks like he's broken his arm. 

Tomos Williams mixed bag. As Lofty said Dan E stood too deep. Midfield defence more holes than a lace doyly. Looking forward to the Eastern superteam. Top plan.

We have issues all over the park. 10/12 are not International standard. Edwards can't seem to kick further than 20 metres ball in hand its pathetic. Surely a decent kicking coach can improve that. Stupid action by Ben Thomas - any sort of contact with Matera's face/head straight red. Defensively we were all over the place. My word..........

Argentina won nearly every ball kicked high - Blair was against taller men, but the rest did no better. Put LRZ to 15 with Blair on the wing, maybe? Or Rogers? Or swap depending on the situation? We can't afford to lose so many high balls. 

Little was seen in attack of any of the backs apart from Tomos W, Blair and LRZ... and one run by Edwards. As someone has pointed out, Edwards kicks too short to touch... why not let Ben Thomas take those if selected? He didn't contribute much else apart from a YC and an interception! 

The scrum started to struggle badly on the TH side when Griffin replaced Assiratti. Is there an alternative? 

Who will play in the back row now, with Morgan surely out for a while and Wainwright also with a knock? Is Plumtree going to be OK? What about Josh - is he still out? Who else is fit and available? A bit of a crisis there if Wainwright is also out for a bit. 

In spite of the scoreline, there were some signs of improvement especially given the coaches haven't had a lot of time with the team, but apart from Japan we'll do well to stop NZ and especially SA from putting up big scores, I fear. 

Dreadful. If he plays the rest of the games tactics will be just kick to the little bloke at the back. 

And to think. Gatland had the blame. 

Yes, or the gap between the two sides was reflected by the score. The only member of our team who would be in contention to start in Argentina's side would be Jack Morgan, Rees-Zammit if fully fit. 

On the plus we did create chances and got a few tries but we were outmuscled and outplayed in almost every aspect. Argentina were clinical, opportunistic and ruthless (also with periods where they were happy to sit back) but our defence was nowhere near good enough to cope. Some of this is a natural size/power gulf but there were glaring technical errors and I don't think whatever plan they had worked. There were a few admirable stops of the Argie rolling maul, led by Jac, that deserve praise but it couldn't change the ultimate result of an eventual try when they went again. And such was the game. Two yellow cards made it impossible as well. 

I gather this wasn't a full strength Pumas so NZ and SA could be tough. 

Against Argentina it was an improvement under a new coaching team. 

Crowd was made up of mostly families and youngsters which was good to see. Rugby forums aren’t really a true reflection of the general rugby watching public. By all accounts a lot of Cardiff students go to games and they weren’t up and down drunk going to the bar. 

FWIW

Positives - Tomos, Assiratti (did far better than I thought he would) and Jac (but we've lost him now), I also thought Beard and Jenkins put in a solid shift. 

And Boxing Day.  

Great player though and a nice guy Ospreys or not. 

Tomos Williams is good too. Very underrated player. 

Wales. A newly put together team playing against a team use to playing with each other and having recently played against several tough sides...

Wales A new coaching set up 

The chaotic backdrop  currently engulfing Welsh rugby 

100% Lofty  ex players aren't renowned for their commentary skills, and Warbs is the epitome of that  Awesome servant to the National team, but punditry......I'd suggest concentrating on his after Rugby career 

Think I've said before. Went to the Wales V England World Cup warm-up match at the Principality. Couldn't get tickets myself, but got given two tickets for nowt from a mate who just happens to work for a major sponsor. 

We were there for the complete haul. These two ladies next to us turned up 20 minutes into the game, pissed as farts, smelt like their emptied a bottle of Channel over their heads, wore England shirts, carried on drinking, left 20 minutes before the end, and who knows where they ended up. Either way, a complete embarrassment 

Correct  Abbey.

I used to occasionally  enjoy internationals from the non alcohol area behind the posts. Come early and leave the ground later, after the game, and all was fine.. On the field we were decent , masking the crisis which was soon to evolve,  ( starting with  Roger Lewis).

Now I don't  even watch Wales games, complete waste of time.

It's not that I don't  care,  I do passionately,  but its a far too painful  experience  these days.

Today, after some shopping, I re-potted  some of my cacti,  turning the TV on to catch the score then turning off immediately. 

The way things are going I will be just watching  community  rugby  soon.

Proper competitive rugby games , played in the daylight.

Very  enjoyable 

Think the positive from the supporters perspective is that Reddin was there to witness it first hand. People/supporters are starting to vote with their feet.....I've never seen so many empty seats at an autumn international. 

New Zealand next, which will pack it out, but after that......there's poo loads of tickets left. Japan next, and then South Africa outside of the International window  Good luck with that Reddin, you're better off persuading Georgia to play a one off game against Brazil.

Not just bland hes fake too

Looking at the Japan game & our injuries back row is going to be interesting. Guess Morse will start at 7. 

Sorry GPR he does make things happen bit of luck would have had try. He is class above what else we have the problem is inside him when you think of the centres that have worn the Welsh shirt then what we currently have is embarrassing by comparison. I suppose give Hawkins a go at 12 and Hennessy at 13. I don’t think L Sherrat will drop Thomas unfortunately.

Blair and Tom were a disaster in defence and will be lucky to start again next week.

Deaves deserves a start at 7 and Morse at 8 Wainwright at 6. Give Fender a go at second row failing to see what Jenkins offers other than giving 100% he not that great. 

Rhys Carre is an embarrassment I don’t care what anyone says Gatland was right to do what he did, unfortunately he did not take heed and get fit, he is happy to play a subs role at Saracens coming on when defences are tired. 

I don't dispute that LRZ probably starts but he is no world saver. He wouldn't get anywhere near the Argentinian back 3 or subs. Blair is too small for an International 15 with the current propensity for attacking aerially. Rogers has been one of Wales' most secure players under the high ball but had a bad day. I wouldn't be too hasty to judge the back 3 overly as 10/12 & 13 inside them were all over the place. Carre starts most games for Saracens but he should have come on for the final 30 minutes with Smith starting. 

You didn't miss much to be honest  We were 14 - 0 down after 10 minutes and were chasing the game from there. We did have some decent patches, but given our game time since July and Argentina coming here after just finishing the Championship, it was a much predicted result......but I wasn't expecting 50 though to be honest.

We'll do well to beat Japan, they gave Ireland a tough game on Saturday, and only ran out of gas in the last quarter. They won't have that problem against us, so it's going to be very interesting......including how many people turn up to watch 

15: Beetham

14: LRZ

13: Llewellyn

12: James

11: Grady

10: Hawkins

It is harder for the midfield without much go forward but even saying that there's no dynamism in the midfield and as big as Llewellyn is he doesn't really carry his weight very well. JBW hasn't really settled in a Wales shirt but I'd persist, or at least have him in the squad. As much as Tomos has loads of talent I'd like to see RMW on the bench and get a good 20/30 minutes, just to see what sort of control and variety he might bring.

Don't get me wrong we're hardly overflowing with options but I do think selection could be improved.