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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2021 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by 157cb 157cb wrote:



   Nothing against the Womens game whatsoever. Make it a Pro game in Wales, is a huge risk .Not forgetting there is not enough money in the Welsh game for the Men's Pro game ,the same with the grassroots.
I’m not saying it should be fully Pro but when you have a player of the Calibre of Joyce then you should be using her to promote the game. She is one of the few World class players Wales has in either the men’s or women’s game. 
She asks why i still can't answer. I guess its in the blood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletpimp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 November 2021 at 12:52pm
[QUOTE=Realwest]I’m a fan of the Womens game and of course I want them to do well.

I understand that the Wales Women have been working extremely hard, effectively most of them have been working full time jobs and training and travelling in their own time without getting paid for doing so.

They have been through a lot of different coaches and there is definitely some scandal involving Roland Phillips as that ended very quickly with no real reason.

However with all this considered I do not find that the full time contracts are a good idea at this point, from a business point of view the Women do not bring in anything to the Wru.

The u20s could also be seen as bad business however they provide the pathway for players who develop into a team that sells out the Principality which is obviously the cash cow of the WRU.

Everything that the the Women's game has is built on the back of what the Mens game has achieved so to use the facility’s stadiums etc they should perhaps be a little more grateful. 

Regional rugby is a disgrace at the moment and I feel that the money would be better invested there.

It may seem I’m against the woman's game but believe me I’m not. They should be given help where possible and be compensated for travel and loss for work but full time contracts are crazy semi pro would be a reasonable first step and see how that goes.

By the way my fave Womens play is Alisha Butchers
###########################################

Waw, fan of the Womens game...could have fooled me!
Wonder what Alisha Butchers, and others would say to the comments......
"Women do not bring in anything to WRU"..and
"Perhaps be a little more grateful."
Such sexist, patronising  diatribe  has no place here!
Can I remind "Realwest" that we both here in Wales and elsewhere are now involved in rugby as a COMMUNITY GAME, played and enjoyed

 young children, teenagers, as well as adults..BOTH SEXES !
Gone are are the days when I stood on the tanner bank as a young man,surrounded by other men, who on certain occasions,oiled by alcohol, didn't care what we said..and I shamefully admit it.
Now in Parc surrounded by a diverse fan base,  we ALL have responsibility  for our behaviour, and unlike some shocking recent scenes from the Principality stadium, we are BETTER for it.

In this context,  we have as supporters, a responsibility to encourage the womens game as an integral element of the above.
Not only to be "the best they can be" on the playing field, but to have women active in the game, leads them to total involvement in the sport in general, whether that is in coaching , become officials(far more ref's are now female),and in multiv,,,arious things supporting the game off the field,including media.

It's just not good enough to say "Oh I support the women's game",but what you really mean is ...pat them on the head and they'll go away!
We know full well that the women's game In Wales ATM, does not generate income, and will have to be supported by the WRU.
Women however do not need lectures from men on the waste of money that's been ploughed in to the male game in Wales.
You only have to looked the regions and what they have achieved in the last 15 years to illustrate that.
To top that, we have teams playing in the premiership,  who instead of investing their resources in to player development,  for the long term future of the game, pay older second rate players, not good enough to play regional game.There was one such glaring example of this in the recent LLANELLI V ABERAVON game ! The same happens lower down the league pecking order.

So what are the Women asking? Quite simple that in next years world Cup , they run out proudly to represent Wales, no greater honour, and do so, as best prepared they can be!
At present and in the past you have  players scurrying around,occupying full time jobs,some raising families,AND then have to attend strenuous national training sessions in Cardiff, after a lengthy car journey.
The reward for that is to proudly what the  three feathers on match day, and be humiliatingly hammered by pro sides likecEngland and France.

Talking of contracts, there have no exact details, to my knowledge, 
but I do know there 10 pro contracts available, with a further 15 on a "retainer" basis.
Whatever the detail, I can assure you that any financial  renumeration,  will a fraction of what the men receive ,and there puts everything in perspective.
The other issue, of course, is that a number of women, both in the current squad,and going forward, already have careers, so would you throw that away, for a fraction of the money, combined with the thought of being one injury away from retirement? 
So going forward, the mix is unclear as we stand ,and hopefully will be revealed shortly 

What we do know, is how much better the current Wales Womens squad is through playing their rugby in Enland in the premiership.
We must be grateful to the English clubs, who have had the foresight, and the confidence to set up pro/semi pro teams. 
The RFU itself has taken the leap and offered professional  contracts to their best players.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating...as England totally dismantled the NZ black ferns to the tune of 50points two weeks running.Crowds at sandy Park Exeter & Franklin's Gardens Northampton, were both around 10,000.When did we last have that number at Parc ?
The investment is paying dividends,v and also growing a  much wider fan base for the game.

All that world class performers like Jaz Joyce are asking, is a little more of a level playing field, knowing that she is as best prepared as she can be.
The only way we can encourage younger (both sexes): to involve themselves in a healthy activity,  where team bonding is an an essential pre requisite, and consequently build life skills is to showcase (and support) the game at the highest level.

These girls need our support, not empty platitudes. 
Can you really take it, in that top girls like Elinor Snowsill have been exposed to most outrageous online misogyny, not just because she is gay,but because she is a  WOMAN!
In the post Sarah Everard era, women deserve better, both in sport in society.
As a lifelong Llanelli, Scarlets,Wales, and local rugby fan, they have my total support, and let's hope, under new the WRU stance on the womens game ,they begin to build. It will take time, but as with Dwaine Peel's new regime,  we must be patient

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Realwest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 November 2021 at 7:02pm
So what points would you like me to address keep it snappy as I haven’t got time for another session of War and Peace
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 November 2021 at 11:33pm
I think it’s best when we keep conversations above the belt on this forum. I don’t think what realwest said was sexist and I think it was out of order throw that accusation out there.

Call it patronising is fine but to say his comments were sexist and have no place here is just as bad as what you accuse in my opinion.

I think one can support the women’s game and legitimately ask what the trade off is. If the money goes to the women’s game it’s not going somewhere else - where shouldn’t it go? 

What would you like to see underfunded by the WRU, so that the Wales women can get pro-contracts? Community clubs, regions, hotels? 

If you’d like to see community clubs given less money - say so. If you’d like to see the regions given less money - say so. If you’d like the WRU to stop investing in something that will make them money and give it to something you admit isn’t making money - then say so.

These decisions aren’t easy and I’m glad I don’t have to make them. To dismiss other posters of something as sickening as sexism is to degrade this forum to something no better than twitter.

To me, it’s obvious that the WRU need to invest in the women’s game. I have a cousin who is a commonwealth games athlete, she has gone to a few training sessions at clubs with English red roses and they have asked if she was thinking about switching - she qualifies for both England and Wales and basically doesn’t think it’s worth perusing rugby because it’s unlikely she’ll reach a level where she would make the same money as she does with her javelin. 

There will be more women in Wales like my cousin who might be persuaded to take up rugby if it was properly funded. 

But the money has to come from somewhere and people are anti-high ticket prices, they’re anti-out of international window tests, they’re anti wearing the 2nd strip, they anti-investing in anything that might make the Union money. And then they demand money. 


Edited by dyniol53 - 14 November 2021 at 11:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 November 2021 at 12:04am
Originally posted by Eastern outpost Eastern outpost wrote:

Clicked on BBC website for yesterday’s results. The two women’s internationals didn’t have the click through see who scored facility.

The men’s matches did.

For a national broadcaster, how stupid is that?!

bbc had live coverage of womens rugby league and union and football throughout the weekend and zero coverage of any mens rugby anywhere, so theyve not done too badly lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 November 2021 at 4:35am
I do think a separate income stream to support the whole eco system for the women's game in Wales, one that maybe embraces the private sector more (outside of Sports brands) is well worth pursuing.

Having it funded under the current ( convoluted and misaligned )mechanism means it's in there with the national teams, semi pro teams, academy pathways and err, hospitality!
Pro contracts is a big step forward for sure, I'm just not sure whether the umbrella organization have the integrity to deliver the existing product, never mind a new one.

Huge potential to examine separate funding for development of the Women's game ( trust me in this, we do it).

Check out the US Ladies football sponsors for a point of reference,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Realwest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 November 2021 at 5:28pm
If the womens game was self funding there would not be a team it costs a fortune to fly squads around the world and stay In hotels let alone to pay them as professionals.

I would love to see the WRU fund my local division 4 team as professionals but it’s just not good business sense. 

With a skint union you have to invest very sensibly and get the best bang for your buck.

If the money was there I’d 100% want the womens game fully funded but the truth is that it isn’t.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 November 2021 at 6:15pm
I'm not sure I've grasped the comment about self funding, and whether it's a reply to my point about finding new income streams to support the woman's game.

But to try and share a little validity to back my point.

O2 are the shirt sponsors for England and have just started a 5 year deal worth 7.5m ... funding that will equally split between the men and women's game (for the first time).

For the right or wrong reasons, corporate sponsorship needs to, and is, course correcting towards gender neutrality in it's sponsorship allocations.

Wales is making a start by offering pro contracts, and I commend them on that, but we are late to the party and need to think about how we make up the time.

Women's rugby is now one of the fastest growing team sports in the world, and to that end is attracting significant funding and profile.
If you have a minute have a read how Mastercard ( huge budget) are putting funding in to all levels of the women's game.

https://www.mastercard.com/news/perspectives/2021/womens-rugby-sponsorship/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Realwest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 November 2021 at 6:53pm
That’s a cracking deal for England Women, although the money would be huge for Wales women we could have a £10m annually and still would be miles behind England. Money would obviously help but the player base in England dwarfs ours.

With no league and no fixtures for the Regions they will always be behind the English League.

The only way for us to compete is to have our regions join the English League and hate to say it but we haven’t got the talent for 4 regions.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dic Penderyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 November 2021 at 9:59pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

I'm not sure I've grasped the comment about self funding, and whether it's a reply to my point about finding new income streams to support the woman's game.

But to try and share a little validity to back my point.

O2 are the shirt sponsors for England and have just started a 5 year deal worth 7.5m ... funding that will equally split between the men and women's game (for the first time).

For the right or wrong reasons, corporate sponsorship needs to, and is, course correcting towards gender neutrality in it's sponsorship allocations.

Wales is making a start by offering pro contracts, and I commend them on that, but we are late to the party and need to think about how we make up the time.

Women's rugby is now one of the fastest growing team sports in the world, and to that end is attracting significant funding and profile.
If you have a minute have a read how Mastercard ( huge budget) are putting funding in to all levels of the women's game.

https://www.mastercard.com/news/perspectives/2021/womens-rugby-sponsorship/

So O2 have not increased the amount of money they give to English rugby ($10m to$9.5),but equal funding therefore represents a cut to the men's game,no?
Mastercard-disputed figures for the women's game-i.e what constitutes a 'player'is actually debatable!!!
PR -wise ,though,throwing a bundle at women's rugby a(cynical,of course)master-stroke.....that's just inclusivity on steroids.

Rugby football lacks the reach of the round ball,so capital will always call the shots.....and you'll never see a Gary Neville on Premier Sports,or anybody else to call out the bull#@$@ for what it is... .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scarletpimp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2021 at 12:16am
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

I think it’s best when we keep conversations above the belt on this forum. I don’t think what realwest said was sexist and I think it was out of order throw that accusation out there.

Call it patronising is fine but to say his comments were sexist and have no place here is just as bad as what you accuse in my opinion.

I think one can support the women’s game and legitimately ask what the trade off is. If the money goes to the women’s game it’s not going somewhere else - where shouldn’t it go? 

What would you like to see underfunded by the WRU, so that the Wales women can get pro-contracts? Community clubs, regions, hotels? 

If you’d like to see community clubs given less money - say so. If you’d like to see the regions given less money - say so. If you’d like the WRU to stop investing in something that will make them money and give it to something you admit isn’t making money - then say so.

These decisions aren’t easy and I’m glad I don’t have to make them. To dismiss other posters of something as sickening as sexism is to degrade this forum to something no better than twitter.

To me, it’s obvious that the WRU need to invest in the women’s game. I have a cousin who is a commonwealth games athlete, she has gone to a few training sessions at clubs with English red roses and they have asked if she was thinking about switching - she qualifies for both England and Wales and basically doesn’t think it’s worth perusing rugby because it’s unlikely she’ll reach a level where she would make the same money as she does with her javelin. 

There will be more women in Wales like my cousin who might be persuaded to take up rugby if it was properly funded. 

But the money has to come from somewhere and people are anti-high ticket prices, they’re anti-out of international window tests, they’re anti wearing the 2nd strip, they anti-investing in anything that might make the Union money. And then they demand money. 

Well Dyniol, I don't want to have a definitive debate on your definition of "sexism", but in my book, it called discrimination...at THATS what we don't need on this forum, or anywhere.

The question of whether proper funding for the women's  game should be at the expense of the regions, or the community  game is not an issue for me!
Not only  have I supported  Llanelli and Scarlets since  a boy as a  season ticket holder, but as junior rugby coach have been actively involved in the community game...so why would I want to see it disadvantaged for the expense of extra funding for the women's game.?
I Don't see it as one or the other,as all have their part to play.

Prior to covid, the WRU were in a comfortable financial position,and we'll capable of supporting the possibility of 10 pro women's contracts, at a fraction of the cost of what any regional male player would expect.
As Will Chips has indicated, the women's game is fast growing, and in the long term hopefully, will attract a lot more commercial revenue streams.  At the moment,  we have to grow  the game in Wales,  and in that context, at last the Union have realised you have to gave to have development pathways the age grade system, for girls and for boys, with more participation .

Realwest  has a point, that further down the line we could be looking at possibly regional women's teams competing in the English  premiership ,probably two.,East and West, with a mix of pro and semi pro players. You would still have some players going over the bridge, to play in England, where you can benefit from playing with best from a number of countries

At the end of the day it our duty as a rugby  community in Wales, to ensure our Internationals teams ore properly  funded and supported,and I applaud the Union for recognising its shortcomings regarding its organisation of women's rugby. I feel Nigel Walier looks  to be a good appointment. 
The short term investment,  will not only grow the game on the field, but hopefully off it as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2021 at 1:11am
Originally posted by scarletpimp scarletpimp wrote:

Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

I think it’s best when we keep conversations above the belt on this forum. I don’t think what realwest said was sexist and I think it was out of order throw that accusation out there.

Call it patronising is fine but to say his comments were sexist and have no place here is just as bad as what you accuse in my opinion.

Well Dyniol, I don't want to have a definitive debate on your definition of "sexism", but in my book, it called discrimination...at THATS what we don't need on this forum, or anywhere.


If you don’t believe in discrimination you don’t believe women’s rugby should exist. Men’s and women’s rugby shouldn’t be two distinct categories, with no discrimination there is just rugby and anyone who wants to play should be allowed and anyone who says they can’t is a bigot who does discrimination. 

This is an absurd position and one that noone who’s sane holds, but it is consistent with your definition of sexism, which is as good as useless.

I tend to think of sexism as quite serious, I wouldn’t stand for someone coming on here and calling you a paedophile because you’re involved with junior rugby and I won’t stand by as you call someone sexist for giving their opinion on the financial state of women’s rugby. 

You even brought up the murder of Sarah Everard… in a post about funding women’s rugby. Its unhinged. The right thing to do would be to admit you got carried away and apologise to realwest. 

As for the rest of your post it’s jam today jam tomorrow. The closest thing to acknowledging a trade-off was suggesting that you might be able to cut a few male regional player wages to invest more in the women’s game.

That’s fine but you can’t then complain when more Welsh players go to England or Japan or that we can’t sign a international quality 2nd row. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2021 at 2:50pm
If you want the women’s game to have a proper seat at the table them you must be prepared cut (x..y…z) in order to do so.

My point on separate funding streams is to try to avoid those sort of binary outcomes really?

Call it what you will ( diversity on steroids etc, and my post covers my ambivalence on that)
Part) but the reality is that funding to support the women’s game from the private sector is growing, whilst for the men’s game it’s flatlining ( or going down as in the case of the O2 for England).
The pandemic has its part to play in the overall spend of course.

I’m just suggesting that we can as a region, or a WRU Board, try to explore the funding available ( or not as the case may be).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Realwest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2021 at 4:00pm
Is it sexist that the mens welsh team regularly sells out the principality but the womens welsh team are lucky to get 10,000
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wil Chips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2021 at 6:45pm
Not really, its just a statistic. I’m assuming it’s addressing some earlier comments on this thread.

I guess if Wales men’s were amateur status, were playing teams ranked well below them, and on a Friday evening, then I’m not sure the stadium would be regularly sold out.

It’s not really the point though. It’s really about the global growth of women’s rugby, and like women’s football, cricket and other sports, how to harness that growth and shape it in to a success in Wales.

US women’s football would be decent place to start that evaluation process. Amazing growth.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2021 at 6:48pm
Originally posted by Wil Chips Wil Chips wrote:

If you want the women’s game to have a proper seat at the table them you must be prepared cut (x..y…z) in order to do so.

My point on separate funding streams is to try to avoid those sort of binary outcomes really?

Call it what you will ( diversity on steroids etc, and my post covers my ambivalence on that)
Part) but the reality is that funding to support the women’s game from the private sector is growing, whilst for the men’s game it’s flatlining ( or going down as in the case of the O2 for England).
The pandemic has its part to play in the overall spend of course.

I’m just suggesting that we can as a region, or a WRU Board, try to explore the funding available ( or not as the case may be).



I don’t think it’s “diversity on steroids” and I completely agree there’s both growth of interest and potential in the women’s game. 

As many pundits have pointed out the real opportunity for women’s rugby is it doesn’t have to be tied to the men’s game. E.g. a women’s Lions wouldn’t and shouldn’t tour Aus/SA and would probably be better off playing vs France, NZ, the USA or Canada - with al sorts of golden opportunities in North America. 

I think your point about private investment is interesting but I tend to think Dic’s point proves my point about trade offs no? The money previously just went to RFU to spend on what they like, and now it has to be equally spent between Men’s and Womens rugby, so there’s still only £10m in the pot it’s just being put in one place instead of another.

If the WRU had a £10m Cazoo deal - it could give £5m of that to women’s rugby and return £0 back off that over the next 10 years. They may well think that’s worthwhile, but they could also divvy up that money in another way I.e. giving £1m to women’s rugby and £4m to regional teams. Given we at least we turned a profit in the year before covid it could be suggested we’d be a better investment. 

Again, I’m really hopeful about the women’s game but I resent people throwing cheap shots at people expressing legitimate opinions.
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