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Scott Fardy

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2018 at 11:12am
The average crowd attendance misses the point anyway. Even if we got £12k every week it would barely make a dent in terms of being able to match the Leinster squad strength and depth.

Leinster are funded better, and are able to attract the likes of Fardy in the first place. We aren't. We attract the riskier signings like Ball, McNichol, Parkes etc.

Getting to the semi final was a huge achievement for a club like us, who, as Nigel Short said last year had the 7th largest budget in the pro12.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote reesytheexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2018 at 12:44pm
Leinster also plug well in to the traditional private school system( Catholic understandably) in Dublin and area who play rugby and these are a good conveyer belt of quality coming through. The wealth of this structure and its integration into "Irishness" is very effective ( ignoring the money in this system which Wales and certainly Llanelli doesn't possess). I am not knocking it but certainly envious of it. We punch HUGELY above our weight in professional rugby.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SCL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2018 at 1:22pm
Ok. So there's a whole lot of why nots.

1) Dublin has 600k people. Yep. But county Limerick has 195k and Carmarthenshire has 185k. But Thomond Park holds 26,000 people and quite often, when Munster use it, they fill it. Is that because people in SW Ireland like rugby more than people in SW Wales? We cannot admit to that... Munster average 13,500 home attendance this season. (Which at the nominal GBP10 per head is half a million a season in revenue)

2) Llanelli and Swansea are 12 miles apart. Limerick's version is Cork and it is 60 miles away.

3) Yes, we are punching above our weight. But why should we settle for that when both ends of our stadium are empty for most games and some people in Loughor and Gorseinon go to watch the ashtrays? Do we not offer a better quality of player/game/entertainment? Of course we do!

I'm not pointing any fingers at people on this forum. Most of your bums are on seats at kick off time. If mine wasn't 12,000 miles away it would be too. Nor am I saying we're doing badly. But are we really at saturation point? There are 462k (according to census) people in metropolitan Swansea and the Ospreys get smaller crowds than we do. They're all less than 45 mins  from PYS and 455k of them are wise enough to not be watching the Ospreys every week. What % of them are in front of a screen when Wales are playing? Because they're all rugby fans and fair game. We can show them a great atmosphere, great rugby and they can sing some songs with us. 1% of them and we're full.

Are we satisfied to just read those stats posted the other day about us ranking 5th for population vs attendance and pat ourselves on the back, or do we want to address the 5,500 seats that are there and empty when our boys are playing Champagne rugby every fortnight?

Presumably the Scarlets have a marketing team/strategy. I'm just interested in what they are doing to get some of those 5500 seats filled to earn us more money/increase they wage pool/bring in big ticket players.

As I've said, at the moment the coach and players couldn't be doing much more and that is their side of the marketing. Now is exactly the time to be recruiting lifelong supporters, while the product is so good.

When I was a boy, my old man gave me the option of Swans v Cardiff at the Vetch or Scarlets v Quins at Stradey. We turned left out of Gower and I watched us hammer the Londoners and soccer was no longer a part of my weekend.

Now is precisely the time to be recruiting fans for life. Because one day we're going to be losing to Newport and its going to be harder to recruit them then. And maybe, like Munster have in the past, we can then look at the likes of Christian Cullen, Doug Howlett and Jean de Villiers.

The seats are there for them/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ynysddurfc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2018 at 1:41pm
Talking to a number of Leinster supporters last night. Their basic season ticket is 300 euros. When you combine numbers and prices that is a hefty uplift to overall budget
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sgsmorgan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2018 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by SCL SCL wrote:

Ok. So there's a whole lot of why nots.

1) Dublin has 600k people. Yep. But county Limerick has 195k and Carmarthenshire has 185k. But Thomond Park holds 26,000 people and quite often, when Munster use it, they fill it. Is that because people in SW Ireland like rugby more than people in SW Wales? We cannot admit to that... Munster average 13,500 home attendance this season. (Which at the nominal GBP10 per head is half a million a season in revenue)

2) Llanelli and Swansea are 12 miles apart. Limerick's version is Cork and it is 60 miles away.

3) Yes, we are punching above our weight. But why should we settle for that when both ends of our stadium are empty for most games and some people in Loughor and Gorseinon go to watch the ashtrays? Do we not offer a better quality of player/game/entertainment? Of course we do!

I'm not pointing any fingers at people on this forum. Most of your bums are on seats at kick off time. If mine wasn't 12,000 miles away it would be too. Nor am I saying we're doing badly. But are we really at saturation point? There are 462k (according to census) people in metropolitan Swansea and the Ospreys get smaller crowds than we do. They're all less than 45 mins  from PYS and 455k of them are wise enough to not be watching the Ospreys every week. What % of them are in front of a screen when Wales are playing? Because they're all rugby fans and fair game. We can show them a great atmosphere, great rugby and they can sing some songs with us. 1% of them and we're full.

Are we satisfied to just read those stats posted the other day about us ranking 5th for population vs attendance and pat ourselves on the back, or do we want to address the 5,500 seats that are there and empty when our boys are playing Champagne rugby every fortnight?

Presumably the Scarlets have a marketing team/strategy. I'm just interested in what they are doing to get some of those 5500 seats filled to earn us more money/increase they wage pool/bring in big ticket players.

As I've said, at the moment the coach and players couldn't be doing much more and that is their side of the marketing. Now is exactly the time to be recruiting lifelong supporters, while the product is so good.

When I was a boy, my old man gave me the option of Swans v Cardiff at the Vetch or Scarlets v Quins at Stradey. We turned left out of Gower and I watched us hammer the Londoners and soccer was no longer a part of my weekend.

Now is precisely the time to be recruiting fans for life. Because one day we're going to be losing to Newport and its going to be harder to recruit them then. And maybe, like Munster have in the past, we can then look at the likes of Christian Cullen, Doug Howlett and Jean de Villiers.

The seats are there for them/


Haven't got time in detail to go through this post and don't want to cause a "flame war" but right at the start of this post is the first inaccuracy..... Munster is about a lot more than County Limerick. You forget that Munster is  province and not a County therefore you have to include the populations of Counties Cork, Kerry (and others as well). Munster also split their matches between Thomond Park in Limerick and Musgrave Park in Cork.

Doesn't mater how you look at it... the Irish are massively better funded than we are and have much bigger catchment areas to call upon.

I would argue that of ALL the world rugby populations, the Irish and the IRFU handled professionalism better than anyone else. They realised at the outset that the likes of Cork Con, Blackrock, Sundays Well etc would get creamed up against the likes of Llanelli, Swansea etc so they went to support the (then) moribund Inter Pro system and made that Professional.

Brilliant but logical and also one that the IRFU control.

Can't but envy them and now they are reaping the dividends with resources that because we're still in the dark ages and fiercely tribal can only look on with green eyed jealousy.

The likes of Moffat and Lewis have set Welsh Regional and Club Rugby back years.

Also the mentality of the local boys have crucified us as well...anyone who in their blind eyes would think that the likes of Merthyr, Ebbw Vale and Maesteg could even hope to compete with the more professional outfits of today still there will always be some dick out there with more money than sense who wants to fund a wet dream and screw us all up in the process.


Edited by sgsmorgan - 22 April 2018 at 3:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Legendinmybathroom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2018 at 3:35pm
Well said. The Irish provinces are far better run and financed than the welsh regions, due to them going down the regional approach much earlier than us, and buying into the concept. They are also well supported financial by the IRU and regional/national banking institutions.
The best we can hope for is that we continue to play an attractive style of play, be successful on the field and qualify for the knockout stages of the european cup again, and use that exposure to encourage fans from rival regions to join the Scarlet revolution and to hopefully persuade a major investor onboard. Let’s face it, an investment in us would be a drop in the ocean to some large companies, and would represent a lot more exposure for their investment, when compared to sponsoring maybe a championship football team.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 April 2018 at 6:40pm
Originally posted by sgsmorgan sgsmorgan wrote:

You forget that Munster is  province and not a County therefore you have to include the populations of Counties Cork, Kerry (and others as well). Munster also split their matches between Thomond Park in Limerick and Musgrave Park in Cork.



Munster are also millions of Euros in debt. Due to the IRFU bankrolling their stadium rennovation. They failed to make the agreed repayments on their loans to the IRFU and had to re-negotiate.

That's a luxury not afforded to many.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pentigili Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2018 at 12:17am
Daw dydd y bydd mawr y rhai bychain!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2018 at 9:16am
Sensible points being made about the professionalism of the IRFU compared with the WRU. Surely the WRU income has to be on a par at least with the IRFU. Our National Stadium holds 20K + more for a start. The IRFU are prepared to make the tough calls when it comes to contracts & this is bought into by their coach. 

To suggest that Leinster have used their better finances to buy in foreign stars is missing the point a bit. Only two players in their 23 on Saturday were not qualified to play for Ireland compared with four in our team. They have used their money wisely to nurture their huge resource of young talent which allows them to limit the appearances of their top players who arrive at big games fresh and ready to go. Compare this with the English system where their top guys like Itoje & Farrell are flogged.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2018 at 9:27am
It's clearly high time that the WRU financed the regions better, to allow them to compete with the Irish... they must make a fortune from the internationals every year, and debt repayment could easily be spread over a longer period, especially with interest rates remaining very low.

As for the future - Ireland has a far better academy/pathway system for young players than what we have in Wales. Pivac said recently that he was surprised by the gap in playing standards between the four regions, and the levels below. Perhaps the new structures next season will prove to be a step in the right direction - let's hope so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thommo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2018 at 9:30am
Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Sensible points being made about the professionalism of the IRFU compared with the WRU. Surely the WRU income has to be on a par at least with the IRFU. Our National Stadium holds 20K + more for a start. The IRFU are prepared to make the tough calls when it comes to contracts & this is bought into by their coach. 

To suggest that Leinster have used their better finances to buy in foreign stars is missing the point a bit. Only two players in their 23 on Saturday were not qualified to play for Ireland compared with four in our team. They have used their money wisely to nurture their huge resource of young talent which allows them to limit the appearances of their top players who arrive at big games fresh and ready to go. Compare this with the English system where their top guys like Itoje & Farrell are flogged.

I think the point being made is the huge disparity that Dublin has when compared to Llanelli, both socially and financially. Player base is hugely different, fee paying schools in Dublin have the best of training facilities and have superb coaching systems on place. Their academy is far superior it anything in Wales. So is it an even playing field when their player budget dwarves ours?
The gulf is getting wider and wider between the teams as the likes of Leinster and Racing have sponsorship deals we can only dream of. We are not comparing the IRFU and the WRU. A solution could be a salary cap as they have in rugby league.
Realistically we cannot compare with the likes of leinster off the pitch from grassroots to the top. So do world rugby get involved to avoid financial dominance dominating the game?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2018 at 9:43am
Originally posted by thommo thommo wrote:

Originally posted by GPR - Rochester GPR - Rochester wrote:

Sensible points being made about the professionalism of the IRFU compared with the WRU. Surely the WRU income has to be on a par at least with the IRFU. Our National Stadium holds 20K + more for a start. The IRFU are prepared to make the tough calls when it comes to contracts & this is bought into by their coach. 

To suggest that Leinster have used their better finances to buy in foreign stars is missing the point a bit. Only two players in their 23 on Saturday were not qualified to play for Ireland compared with four in our team. They have used their money wisely to nurture their huge resource of young talent which allows them to limit the appearances of their top players who arrive at big games fresh and ready to go. Compare this with the English system where their top guys like Itoje & Farrell are flogged.

I think the point being made is the huge disparity that Dublin has when compared to Llanelli, both socially and financially. Player base is hugely different, fee paying schools in Dublin have the best of training facilities and have superb coaching systems on place. Their academy is far superior it anything in Wales. So is it an even playing field when their player budget dwarves ours?
The gulf is getting wider and wider between the teams as the likes of Leinster and Racing have sponsorship deals we can only dream of. We are not comparing the IRFU and the WRU. A solution could be a salary cap as they have in rugby league.
Realistically we cannot compare with the likes of leinster off the pitch from grassroots to the top. So do world rugby get involved to avoid financial dominance dominating the game?

All fair points Thommo. Aber's point about the WRU funding our regions better is something which should have been done for years. Investment has been needed in our regional academies so that we do not lose so many of our promising young players. Why is it, for instance, that exciting Welsh talent is attracted over the bridge to fee paying education on scholarships - Hartbury College for one. Could the WRU have not developed a state of the art academy linked to a top fee paying school in Wales? With regard to World Rugby getting involved I just cannot see that happening. 

Clearly the Irish have got their system right and it is showing both at Regional level and test level. Players are not overworked and players like Henshaw on Saturday can come back in and play 80 full on minutes as if he had never been away. Compare that with how long it is taking us to get Jake back on the field. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Micro Duck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2018 at 10:01am


I don't think the comparison to Ireland works.

Irish provinces are like small nations. Ulster actually is a nation!

Just take a look at the provincial map of Ireland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinces_of_Ireland

Geographically, all four of the Welsh regions would fit into one Irish province.

There will never be a day when our academies will produce as many players as Leinster.

It doesn't matter. We work with what we have, and we punch above our weight.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KID A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2018 at 10:13am
The WRU funds the regions just over £19m a year between 4. That figure includes the £10m competition moneys owed to us though and alot of the rest is compensation money for player release.

The IRFU funds the pro game in Ireland to the tune of £38m. It's unclear if competition money is included in that (it probably is). Their finances are more murkier and less transparent. Leinster's player wage bill is thought to be around £7m, while ours is around £5.5m I think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PE SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2018 at 10:44am
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

The WRU funds the regions just over £19m a year between 4. That figure includes the £10m competition moneys owed to us though and alot of the rest is compensation money for player release.

The IRFU funds the pro game in Ireland to the tune of £38m. It's unclear if competition money is included in that (it probably is). Their finances are more murkier and less transparent. Leinster's player wage bill is thought to be around £7m, while ours is around £5.5m I think.
 
exactly. I don't believe TV is included in that £38m...but don't think anyone is 100% on that.
fact of the matter is, the £19m is money that is owed to the regions, so can not be seen as WRU funding in my opinion...that alone brings the sum down to £9m BETWEEN 4!
So each region gets around £2.25m from the WRU but that's not taking into account any compensation. so that sum could easily be below £2m in actual funding where the Irish provinces get get €10m each!
 
 
 
 


Edited by PE SA - 23 April 2018 at 10:44am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GPR - Rochester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 April 2018 at 11:04am
Begs the question of where the IRFU get hold of that sort of money. The Aviva receipts would only account for about 50% of that sum. So they are raising over £20M over and above stadium receipts bearing in mind the IRFU overhead needs to be met. 
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