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Scottish/Welsh Independence.

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SA14 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SA14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2021 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

It would be quite a remarkable exception if Wales was a country unable to stand on it's own two feet when virtually every other nation on the planet is able to do so. Look at the likes of Slovenia half the population as Wales, nowhere near the estimated GDP as Wales.

Imagine a country like Portugal being run from a building in Madrid. We'd think it was ridiculous.

Wales has a high enough GDP and resources to be independent. I was never convinced of it at all until a couple of years ago. It's the only chance we've got to rid ourselves of the farce that is Westminster making bad decisions for us. People who have likely never set foot in Wales!

Sadly, I don't think there is the pull for it in Wales. Too many people don't like change or don't want to upset people. It's ingrained in so many people that 'this is just the way it is', so let it be.


Maybe Scotland making a success of independence will change a few people's minds. What I do feel strongly about though is making it very loud and clear that

A VOTE FOR INDEPENDENCE:

Is anti Westminster; NOT anti England


I have many English friends and when I mention independence, they seem to take it as a personal insult. I have no idea why. A nation wanting to govern itself should not be taken as an insult by anyone. This is how deeply ingrained in people's minds the situation is.

The world is a very different place from when a lot of other countries became independent. Wales not being in the EU is a pretty big hiccup. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dai Guevara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2021 at 10:30pm
We will save on the royal family, house of commons/lords, and the non-UN approved attacks and occupations of other countries eg Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria. In fact we should demand compensation for our previous contributions toward nuclear weapons, aircraft carriers and all these symbols of modern imperialism, mainly designed to attack poorly armed countries that won't do what the "exceptional" anglo-saxons tell them (not to defend the British Isles). Add water, energy , agricultural/fishing products, tourism plus the remnants of our manufacturing and service industries and I don't see why we shouldn't be any worse off than the Scandinavian countries in a few years.
Alternatively we can stick with Westminster rule and continue our decline with our greatest export being our people as was the case with Ireland until independence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2021 at 11:41pm
Irelands greatest export is it’s people. Sure i have a live version of mccalpines fusiliers by the dubliners where  they use that quote 👍. I don’t think is a great brain drain or huge welsh dispora anyhow is there?  I’ll repeat what currency will be using? Who is going to replace all the civil servant or mod jobs that will be lost

Edited by RR1972 - 02 June 2021 at 11:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aberscarletsfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2021 at 12:32am
Some of your questions are answered here:

https://www.yes.cymru/independence

Edited by aberscarletsfan - 03 June 2021 at 12:34am
Ri'n ni Yma o Hyd!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2021 at 9:21am
Originally posted by KID A KID A wrote:

It would be quite a remarkable exception if Wales was a country unable to stand on it's own two feet when virtually every other nation on the planet is able to do so. Look at the likes of Slovenia half the population as Wales, nowhere near the estimated GDP as Wales.

Imagine a country like Portugal being run from a building in Madrid. We'd think it was ridiculous.

Wales has a high enough GDP and resources to be independent. I was never convinced of it at all until a couple of years ago. It's the only chance we've got to rid ourselves of the farce that is Westminster making bad decisions for us. People who have likely never set foot in Wales!

Sadly, I don't think there is the pull for it in Wales. Too many people don't like change or don't want to upset people. It's ingrained in so many people that 'this is just the way it is', so let it be.


Maybe Scotland making a success of independence will change a few people's minds. What I do feel strongly about though is making it very loud and clear that

A VOTE FOR INDEPENDENCE:

Is anti Westminster; NOT anti England


I have many English friends and when I mention independence, they seem to take it as a personal insult. I have no idea why. A nation wanting to govern itself should not be taken as an insult by anyone. This is how deeply ingrained in people's minds the situation is.

I don't think it's black and white would Wales be viable as an independent country Y/N. If you put it like that then I agree the answer is Y. I think the question should be would people in Wales be better off if it were independent Y/N.

Better off is subjective and we all have different ideas what it means. Economically (not my strong point), you bring up GDP but that must be influenced by Wales currently being part of the UK surely? What GDP would be for an independent Wales you didn't explore. Resources is an interesting one... and then goes to what our main sources of income would be... so what do you actually mean, farms, tourism, Cardiff centre, a smallish IT sector? What even is Wales' main sources of income and exports currently? I find it very hard to judge how well Wales would do on its own as it is very small and does have some very impoverished areas. As RR1972 says there are a large number of public sector jobs. Financially, I do think Wales benefits, as in gets out more than it puts in, from being part of the UK and we also can't discount being part of the UK attracts talented people to Wales. I'm not convinced we would be better off financially and haven't read anything here to change my view yet.

I believe the strongest arguments are political stance on this thread, that is distancing Wales from Westminster and a political system people don't identify with and also patriotic, that is language and culture based. I also agree fear of change and the unknown would be a large part that "no" would win were it was put to referendum at the moment. 

I'd be interested to see the results out of curiosity but I don't see it happening in my lifetime. I'd also be curious to test the views with different age demographics, what do young Welsh people think?

Scotland on the other hand is a lot closer and they have the fact they voted in favour of remaining in the EU as an additional factor. Not so Wales. Again, be interesting to see what younger Scots think about this.

Reason I am bringing up age is that part of these discussions is a clear disconnect with UK politics and this is strongest in the young. Plus the decision will impact them more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2021 at 9:21am
£5.00 for a hard copy 😂😂LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dai Guevara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2021 at 10:31am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

£5.00 for a hard copy 😂😂LOL


Or 2.4 punt as it will then be

Since the mint is in Llantrisant all we need is some pictures to replace the English/German royalty on our notes

suggestions-

Dafydd Iwan
Ryan Davies
Grav
Aneurin Bevan
Carwyn James
Caryl Parry-Jones
Alun Wyn
Gareth Bale
Catherine Zeta -Jones
Barry John
Sian Phillips
Laura Ashley
Dic Penderyn (not the Scarlet fever one)

If we were so inclined / servile we could always keep the pound as it would be of no great advantage to English companies to have to change currency when hey trade with us. Iceland an independent country with a population of less than 350,000 still uses the Danish Krona although it's been a free country since 1944.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SospanMawr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2021 at 10:42am
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Irelands greatest export is it’s people. Sure i have a live version of mccalpines fusiliers by the dubliners where  they use that quote 👍. I don’t think is a great brain drain or huge welsh dispora anyhow is there?  I’ll repeat what currency will be using? Who is going to replace all the civil servant or mod jobs that will be lost
I don’t think anyone on here is qualified or in a position to make definitive statements on this. It might be helpful if you responded to points other people make if you want people to respond to yours though? 

As far as I can tell, your argument is that you don’t like Westminster (naturally, they don’t need us to remain in power and treat us as such), due to the high number of people on benefits and low wage (both of which have been achieved during years of being part of this Union) we can’t afford to go independent.

So basically we’re stuck in a club that doesn’t work for us? We consistently have the highest level of poverty in the UK? The highest level of child poverty? No real control or influence over who rules us?

We just need to accept this is your argument? Or do you have a genuine constructive argument for how Wales and Welsh people can improve their lot?


Edited by SospanMawr - 03 June 2021 at 10:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2021 at 11:13am
Originally posted by aberscarletsfan aberscarletsfan wrote:

Some of your questions are answered here:

https://www.yes.cymru/independence

Some good stuff in here - there are a few contradictions but something like this is always going to have contradictions.

The best bits are when it talks about accountability. 

Wales votes Labour, gets Conservative gov.

Devolved politicians are in charge of health/education, but not in charge of welfare - so aren’t held accountable for outcomes.

Wales doesn’t have meaningful tax raising powers. (Neglects to mention that the Welsh gov can actually lower taxes compared to rest of the UK, which would make it much easier for us to pay our top rugby players!!)

Also mentions that Wales capacity for borrowing is limited as being part of U.K., this is true and also slightly misleading - because it’s typically more expensive for smaller countries to borrow as the interest rate is higher than when the U.K. gov is borrowing from the Bank of England. 

They (rightly) point out that Wales attempts to reduce air passenger duty to make Cardiff Airport more competitive were blocked by UK gov. This is true and very annoying but is slightly hypocritical with YC’s stated position of wanting to make Wales a leader in the fight against climate change.

Haven’t read it all - but will do.

https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2021 at 11:14am
Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

£5.00 for a hard copy 😂😂LOL


Or 2.4 punt as it will then be

Since the mint is in Llantrisant all we need is some pictures to replace the English/German royalty on our notes

suggestions-

Dafydd Iwan
Ryan Davies
Grav
Aneurin Bevan
Carwyn James
Caryl Parry-Jones
Alun Wyn
Gareth Bale
Catherine Zeta -Jones
Barry John
Sian Phillips
Laura Ashley
Dic Penderyn (not the Scarlet fever one)


Thankfully, unlike half the Euro counties we have more than enough famous people to put on our notes.

Dylan Thomas!
https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2021 at 11:39am
Originally posted by SospanMawr SospanMawr wrote:

Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Irelands greatest export is it’s people. Sure i have a live version of mccalpines fusiliers by the dubliners where  they use that quote 👍. I don’t think is a great brain drain or huge welsh dispora anyhow is there?  I’ll repeat what currency will be using? Who is going to replace all the civil servant or mod jobs that will be lost
I don’t think anyone on here is qualified or in a position to make definitive statements on this. It might be helpful if you responded to points other people make if you want people to respond to yours though? 

As far as I can tell, your argument is that you don’t like Westminster (naturally, they don’t need us to remain in power and treat us as such), due to the high number of people on benefits and low wage (both of which have been achieved during years of being part of this Union) we can’t afford to go independent.

So basically we’re stuck in a club that doesn’t work for us? We consistently have the highest level of poverty in the UK? The highest level of child poverty? No real control or influence over who rules us?

We just need to accept this is your argument? Or do you have a genuine constructive argument for how Wales and Welsh people can improve their lot?
well voting to make ourselves poorer and to reduce employment by going indy is not a route i would take that is for sure. Time for some hard truths there are areas in wales where benefits are seen as a career choice. We need to shed that victim mentality some areA’s have, we need to get our kids working harder in schools getting better grades and being able to get better jobs, the less academic kids need to get into trades (fund more apprentices) if they cant get into a private business join the forces , plenty of oppurunities to get a trade there. We are all masters of our own destiny. Even welsh labour have said going indy will make us poorer not better off, i have yet to see anyone give a convincing arguement as to how we will be better off financally as an indy nation, if we were then i would agree 100 per cent with it.  I don’t have any strong feelings as a unionist monarchist  or loyalist to the uk . At present no one has presented a cohesive arguement though feel free to do so👍 I will gladly listen and take on board any ideas people have . At present though the arguement for an indy wales seems more driven by emotion than by finance. 

Edited by RR1972 - 03 June 2021 at 11:54am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jones2004 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2021 at 12:12pm
While I agree that no one has put a convincing argument together why we’d be better off independent, no one has also put a convincing argument together why we’re better off in the union (I know you’ve mentioned benefits and civil service RR but I’ve also mentioned water and electricity, none of which are a complete picture). The truth is that to compare the Welsh economy in the UK and independent is comparing chalk to cheese and that it’s therefore impossible to conclusively say if we’re better off either way. That is why everyone can only make an educated guess if we’d be better off independent and why there are so many competing theories about the economics of independence among economists, let alone us normal folk! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2021 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by Jones2004 Jones2004 wrote:

While I agree that no one has put a convincing argument together why we’d be better off independent, no one has also put a convincing argument together why we’re better off in the union (I know you’ve mentioned benefits and civil service RR but I’ve also mentioned water and electricity, none of which are a complete picture). The truth is that to compare the Welsh economy in the UK and independent is comparing chalk to cheese and that it’s therefore impossible to conclusively say if we’re better off either way. That is why everyone can only make an educated guess if we’d be better off independent and why there are so many competing theories about the economics of independence among economists, let alone us normal folk! 

Yep, that’s why when it all comes down to it, the question isn’t really about economics. People can argue about GDP going up +/- 5% in or out but really it’s about who WE think we are. 

What do WE mean when we talk in the first person plural?

Can you say WE Europeans in a meaningful sense? If you can you’re more likely to want to stay in the EU.

Can you say WE British in a meaningful sense? If you can’t then I’d guess you’re more likely to support a independent Wal/Sco/Eng.

Can you say WE Cymry and mean it? Some people who can’t speak the language in Wales say they don’t feel “proper” Welsh. Because in their eyes “proper” Welsh people speak the language. 

It’s a personal choice, as someone from a Welsh family, has worked in Glasgow and now lives in London I feel Welsh and British. In that I have a lot in common with people all over Great Britain. But I appreciate not everyone feels that way. 
https://twitter.com/exile_podcast?lang=en
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2021 at 12:33pm
Fair comments by both of you👍

Edited by RR1972 - 03 June 2021 at 12:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roy munster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2021 at 12:40pm
lets see if we can run 1 airport properly first before we get carried away
ROYMOND MUNTER MBE (FOR SERVICES TO THE COMBOVER)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr_martinov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2021 at 2:15pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_independence

Yes vote rising in last couple of years but still 30% behind No. 
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