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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 November 2021 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

I'm personally pro-EU but it's not a prerequisite for me in terms of establishing a sovereign Welsh State. In fact Iceland and Norway present a very good template for us in many ways. EFTA membership might be just the ticket in fact. I also believe a Welsh currency would have big advatages for us in terms of possessing fiscal levers to bring to bear on our economy - just as Iceland and Norway have. Access to the single market is the big advantage of their arrangements and I'd very much appreciate Wales having that.

I agree EFTA. 

Isn't the issue with creating a new currency that its valuation would be low and so interest rates on any government borrowing (which would be necessary) would be exceptionally high.

Whereas when the UK government borrows from the Bank of England at very low interest rates and the money that does eventually get spent in Wales is much cheaper lending than if an independent country with its own (devalued) currency was borrowing.

^ that's probably a bad explanation but I seem to remember it being a theme during the Scots IndyRef2 on the choice of: a.) pegging to the pound, b.) join Euro, c.) new currency. 

The downsides respectively being, a.) you don't have fiscal control to set interest rates, b.) you don't have an adequate deficit to join € yet, and c.) being extremely expensive.

I like that you're referencing Ireland and Estonia, however I think there's a lesson in looking at what specific policies they've used to encourage their recent economic growth and then trying to see if the WAG could emulate them in Wales right now (and which they CAN'T because of the union), and then using pursuing those policies as a reason for more devolution or independence.

Dr John Ball's written quite a bit on this. Also https://commonweal.scot/big-ideas/best-start-for-independent-scotland/ I find have useful ideas. If we look at establishing a Welsh state as a process over a period of years instead of a one off (probably traumatic) event then we can consider how a transition would happen. If we go for our own currency, which I personally think is a very good idea, then we'd want a period of sterlingisation as debts and savings are gradually converted to the new currency. We'd need at least 5 years, maybe 10 for this. How the market responds to Welsh currency will almost definitely depend on the fiscal and economic policies of the Welsh Government of the time. 

Well worth looking at the commonweal.scot website above. Also see Moody's on Iceland's economy. They did the very same thing a hundred years ago and their currency is well rated. What tends to happen in this debate is that pro-indy people often put the best case scenario forward whilst anti's put the worst case scenario forward. I don't personally find that useful. I'd rather know what the possibilities are and what work we'll need to put in to realistically get the best outcome possible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 November 2021 at 6:13pm
One other spanner in the indy works uk has left the eu so if we want free trade with eu , doesn’t that mean we can’t have free trade with england as they operate under diff rules and regulations?

Edited by RR1972 - 19 November 2021 at 6:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 November 2021 at 6:43pm
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by greypower1 greypower1 wrote:

Funding for HS2 is a great argument for Wales independence.
Wales are contributing appx £5 billion to the scheme with no discernable gain.
Scotland and N Ireland get Barnett formula funding as a percentage of the total spend.  How is that fair?

Prof Mark Barry is worth reading on this: https://swalesmetroprof.blog/

Welsh Labour MP's voted for this being an "England and Wales" project despite it being projected to cost the Welsh economy £150M a year. I don't know why they did but it means we get no Barnett consequential and so Welsh taxpayers money is going towards the project with no discernable benefit to Wales. Mark Barry has calculated that Wales has lost £3Bn on rail expenditure over the first part of this century - that's in addition to what we're losing on HS2. This is the economic argument in a nutshell. Wales needs investment in order to lift the economy. We're not getting the capital expediture we need (GERW says we get 70% of the UK capex per person on transport). Westminster has an incredible blindspot on this.

Again, generally agree. And I don't think HS2 will be worth what's spent on it for anyone. 

But when people say it has no discernible benefit to Wales I think of in this case my girlfriends's mum is an engineering manager on HS2, and she's welsh. So she's a welsh person benefitting from being part of a British infrastructure project. 

Would she get that sort of job if Wales were independent? Maybe, but also maybe not. 

Obviously this doesn't mean HS2 is beneficial for Wales on the whole, but what I think it's an example of is a benefit to welsh people of being able to freely operate between Wales and England. 

As I've said before I'm welsh, have worked in Glasgow and now live in London. Isn't that exactly the sort of benefit that being part of a British state allows - would being independent or even more federal allow such flexibility. 

This was one of the best arguments for Remain in my view, as it's now much harder for me to go and work in the EU and that's a bit sad. I understand not everyone works in the industry I do and so voting for a bit more control over their elected leaders at the expense of some (my) extra personal freedoms is an understandable trade off. 

I'm asking but would an independent or further devolved Scotland/Wales compromise such freedom? Because one of the biggest sort of issues of being so close to a megacity is actually just brain drain of workers from smaller towns and cities to that city. And being an independent Scotland/Wales wouldn't change that, I don't think..?

WRT HS2 and individuals, of course some may find employment. I mean to Wales as a whole on balance. The UK government's own cost benefit analysis reported an expected loss to the Welsh economy of £150 million a year. In that regard, I stand by the comment that it has no discernible benefit for Wales. 

But you make a very good point about FoM and the right to work etc. This is why I was/am pro EU. Also why I'm in favour of Plaid's policy of a confederation. I've spent a lot of time talking to people within the movement making the case for not simply pursuing independence but to actually propose a replacement for the UK. People like the MP Clive Lewis have often commented on the future of the UK and I wonder if support can be found amongst people all over the UK to transition to new constitutional arrangements which whilst establishing sovereign states, also establish institutions for the purpose of cooperation and collaboration? This can include FoM etc. I think it might even hold the solution to the situation in Ulster ... one can hope!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 November 2021 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

One other spanner in the indy works uk has left the eu so if we want free trade with eu , doesn’t that mean we can’t have free trade with england as they operate under diff rules and regulations?

It makes it more complicated. Checks would have to happen somewhere. If we were in the single market we'd have to ensure that non-EU goods aren't able to reach the rest of the market without going through the same standards and border checks they do elsewhere. Not ideal. But I don't know if it is the spanner in the works many believe it to be. UK GDP is about $2.7Tn. The EU is about $16Tn. It's well documented what happened to Irish freight following Brexit https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/1011/1252968-dunkirk-irish-ferry/ If in a worst case scenario we couldn't trade freely with England there is an economy more than five times bigger a ferry ride away we could apply to trade with. Not a scenario I'd welcome. I hope in years to come that sanity will prevail and that the UK/England/Wales or whatever States exist by then, will all have a positive trading relationship with the single market and so able to allow for frictionless trade around the isles and the continent. I genuinely believe that Brexit is the last cry of a dying consiousness of British exceptionalism. I don't see how it can last. I think the longer it's pursued the sooner it will break the UK. I can't see how an independent England can thrive outside the single market either. For example, folk in the Pacific have pointed out that the biggest trade deals are generally regional affairs and don't tend to happen accross vast distances of the World. Many of these countries Johnson et al courted said as much.

I do agree that trade is an important point for the movement to talk about and produce credible ideas on, so a fair point RR.

As an aside I remember a vox pop on the news just after the referendum and a guy actually said "We used to have an empire. I think it was a good thing. I think we should have an empire again." Just incredible!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 November 2021 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

I just think we Are better with the devil we know. Since devoultion things like education and health have got worse not better

Happy to respect your opinion RR. The things you mention are a source of frustration for me too. I want far better than what we've had.

I would say that in many ways we would know the "new devil" so to speak. There are 40 Welsh MP's at Westminster that would no doubt form part of a new sovereign Welsh Senedd. There is talent amongst them and at least their primary focus would then be the development of Wales as opposed to the various goings on at Westminster.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RR1972 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 November 2021 at 7:47pm
Heres one for you. Take england out of the mix would we be happier with a united  celtic nations?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 November 2021 at 8:27pm
Originally posted by RR1972 RR1972 wrote:

Heres one for you. Take england out of the mix would we be happier with a united  celtic nations?

A few people have come up with this. There already exists various cultural exchanges. Owen Donovan runs a very good website called State of Wales where he explores various ideas and he covered the idea here: https://stateofwales.com/2019/03/could-a-celtic-union-work/

It's not my personal go to as an idea. I'd much rather see a "Council of the Isles" style confederation which includes England. It could also accomodate Ireland in some way if they so desired - a possible solution to the situation in Ulster? But there are scenarios I can imagine where some kind of Celtic union might be desireable. I can imagine an outcome where Scotland seceeds, Ireland reunites and the Tories take up a more beligerent English Nationalist position and entrench themselves in a purists Brexit. In that case I wonder if Welsh Labour might just chuck the towel in and go for Welsh statehood. If England elected an isolationist Tory party under those circumstances I can imagine some form of Celtic political cooperation. But truth be told I think that's a worst case scenario for England. 

My honest opinion is that events will soon overtake both the Conservative and Labour parties and that they'll retrench. Welsh Labour will push the Federal UK plan they're currently working on but then there won't be much of a UK left all of a sudden. That's when I think the confederation idea will come to the fore. I think it's one that we should give serious consideration to. I believe it's the constructive, positive solution to the constitutional strains we're witnessing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2021 at 9:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2021 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

I'm personally pro-EU but it's not a prerequisite for me in terms of establishing a sovereign Welsh State. In fact Iceland and Norway present a very good template for us in many ways. EFTA membership might be just the ticket in fact. I also believe a Welsh currency would have big advatages for us in terms of possessing fiscal levers to bring to bear on our economy - just as Iceland and Norway have. Access to the single market is the big advantage of their arrangements and I'd very much appreciate Wales having that.

I agree EFTA. 

Isn't the issue with creating a new currency that its valuation would be low and so interest rates on any government borrowing (which would be necessary) would be exceptionally high.

Whereas when the UK government borrows from the Bank of England at very low interest rates and the money that does eventually get spent in Wales is much cheaper lending than if an independent country with its own (devalued) currency was borrowing.

^ that's probably a bad explanation but I seem to remember it being a theme during the Scots IndyRef2 on the choice of: a.) pegging to the pound, b.) join Euro, c.) new currency. 

The downsides respectively being, a.) you don't have fiscal control to set interest rates, b.) you don't have an adequate deficit to join € yet, and c.) being extremely expensive.

I like that you're referencing Ireland and Estonia, however I think there's a lesson in looking at what specific policies they've used to encourage their recent economic growth and then trying to see if the WAG could emulate them in Wales right now (and which they CAN'T because of the union), and then using pursuing those policies as a reason for more devolution or independence.

Dr John Ball's written quite a bit on this. Also https://commonweal.scot/big-ideas/best-start-for-independent-scotland/ I find have useful ideas. If we look at establishing a Welsh state as a process over a period of years instead of a one off (probably traumatic) event then we can consider how a transition would happen. If we go for our own currency, which I personally think is a very good idea, then we'd want a period of sterlingisation as debts and savings are gradually converted to the new currency. We'd need at least 5 years, maybe 10 for this. How the market responds to Welsh currency will almost definitely depend on the fiscal and economic policies of the Welsh Government of the time. 

Well worth looking at the commonweal.scot website above. Also see Moody's on Iceland's economy. They did the very same thing a hundred years ago and their currency is well rated. What tends to happen in this debate is that pro-indy people often put the best case scenario forward whilst anti's put the worst case scenario forward. I don't personally find that useful. I'd rather know what the possibilities are and what work we'll need to put in to realistically get the best outcome possible.

What in your eyes is the biggest risk of creating a welsh currency?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2021 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

What in your eyes is the biggest risk of creating a welsh currency?

Same as for any small nation. Inflation. Preadatory behaviour from speculators. It would contribute to the list of reasons for good governance that's for certain. It really would be down to establishing an effective government with policies that develop the Welsh economy - a neccessity regardless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2021 at 11:05pm
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

I'm personally pro-EU but it's not a prerequisite for me in terms of establishing a sovereign Welsh State. In fact Iceland and Norway present a very good template for us in many ways. EFTA membership might be just the ticket in fact. I also believe a Welsh currency would have big advatages for us in terms of possessing fiscal levers to bring to bear on our economy - just as Iceland and Norway have. Access to the single market is the big advantage of their arrangements and I'd very much appreciate Wales having that.

I agree EFTA. 

Isn't the issue with creating a new currency that its valuation would be low and so interest rates on any government borrowing (which would be necessary) would be exceptionally high.

Whereas when the UK government borrows from the Bank of England at very low interest rates and the money that does eventually get spent in Wales is much cheaper lending than if an independent country with its own (devalued) currency was borrowing.

^ that's probably a bad explanation but I seem to remember it being a theme during the Scots IndyRef2 on the choice of: a.) pegging to the pound, b.) join Euro, c.) new currency. 

The downsides respectively being, a.) you don't have fiscal control to set interest rates, b.) you don't have an adequate deficit to join € yet, and c.) being extremely expensive.

I like that you're referencing Ireland and Estonia, however I think there's a lesson in looking at what specific policies they've used to encourage their recent economic growth and then trying to see if the WAG could emulate them in Wales right now (and which they CAN'T because of the union), and then using pursuing those policies as a reason for more devolution or independence.

Dr John Ball's written quite a bit on this. Also https://commonweal.scot/big-ideas/best-start-for-independent-scotland/ I find have useful ideas. If we look at establishing a Welsh state as a process over a period of years instead of a one off (probably traumatic) event then we can consider how a transition would happen. If we go for our own currency, which I personally think is a very good idea, then we'd want a period of sterlingisation as debts and savings are gradually converted to the new currency. We'd need at least 5 years, maybe 10 for this. How the market responds to Welsh currency will almost definitely depend on the fiscal and economic policies of the Welsh Government of the time. 

Well worth looking at the commonweal.scot website above. Also see Moody's on Iceland's economy. They did the very same thing a hundred years ago and their currency is well rated. What tends to happen in this debate is that pro-indy people often put the best case scenario forward whilst anti's put the worst case scenario forward. I don't personally find that useful. I'd rather know what the possibilities are and what work we'll need to put in to realistically get the best outcome possible.

It's a different proposition though saying "our currency could be highly valued in 100 years" to "yes your savings and standard of living is likely to decline in the next decade".

The interesting investigation is why is Iceland's currency highly rated by Moodys and what policies were instrumental in that?

I've made this point elsewhere before about the Irish, who yes are one of the best ranked economies in the world but weren't even in the game till the 90s and then 10 years ago were in a dark place... the policies that got them to where they are today aren't ones most independence movements in this country are interested in.

Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:


I can't remember the exact figures, but before independence the Irish Republic's GDP was a fraction of Wales' and they had no control over their resources allowing their English rulers to export Irish produced food while a million Irish died in the great famine and almost as many emigrated in the next half-century. By now Ireland has a GDP far higher than Wales and still the llais y sais (western mule) is still constantly telling us we can't afford to be Independent.

Only took them 70 years to get there though. 

The key to the growth of their GDP was they cut taxes, in particular corporation taxes, starting with the Celtic Tiger years in the 90s. 

From the 30s-80s they were a complete economic backwater, coupled with a devastating conflict in the North.

There’s no sign that either of the National Socialists of the SNP or Plaid have taken on board that lesson, nor do they want to. 

So any independent Scotland or Wales would most likely take 40 plus years to figure that out. All signs are that the SNP want to rejoin the EU which, by the time they’re allowed in, the EU will have standardised it’s corporation tax so wouldn’t even be able to make itself attractive to investment like Ireland has over the last 30 years.

The issue for an independent Scotland or Wales could also well be that any "low hanging fruit" from being an English speaking country in Europe or the EU has already been taken by Ireland... why would a multinational want to base themselves in Edinburgh or Cardiff over Dublin..? I'm not sure. 

I'm not sure why a business would choose to HQ in Edinburugh or Cardiff over London, if not only to be in the EU. But then you'd move to Dublin.

I think both independence campaigns have their work cut out in terms of actually laying out what kind of country they'd like to be outside the UK and what opportunities there are. 

All I see (and I've spent more time in Scotland than Wales in the last 5 years) is the independence campaigns main priorities are anti-Brexit, anti-Johnson and strange preoccupation with trans-rights. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aber-fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2021 at 4:41pm
dyniol:"why would a multinational want to base themselves in Edinburgh or Cardiff over Dublin..? I'm not sure. "

Fair question.

With a lot of 'ifs' - 'if' either or both Wales and Scotland became independent and 'if' they re-joined the EU, they would be in a better position to trade with both England (land borders) and the EU (nearer, via roads or rail to ports) than Ireland.

A lot of imponderables, though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2021 at 10:23pm
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

I'm personally pro-EU but it's not a prerequisite for me in terms of establishing a sovereign Welsh State. In fact Iceland and Norway present a very good template for us in many ways. EFTA membership might be just the ticket in fact. I also believe a Welsh currency would have big advatages for us in terms of possessing fiscal levers to bring to bear on our economy - just as Iceland and Norway have. Access to the single market is the big advantage of their arrangements and I'd very much appreciate Wales having that.

I agree EFTA. 

Isn't the issue with creating a new currency that its valuation would be low and so interest rates on any government borrowing (which would be necessary) would be exceptionally high.

Whereas when the UK government borrows from the Bank of England at very low interest rates and the money that does eventually get spent in Wales is much cheaper lending than if an independent country with its own (devalued) currency was borrowing.

^ that's probably a bad explanation but I seem to remember it being a theme during the Scots IndyRef2 on the choice of: a.) pegging to the pound, b.) join Euro, c.) new currency. 

The downsides respectively being, a.) you don't have fiscal control to set interest rates, b.) you don't have an adequate deficit to join € yet, and c.) being extremely expensive.

I like that you're referencing Ireland and Estonia, however I think there's a lesson in looking at what specific policies they've used to encourage their recent economic growth and then trying to see if the WAG could emulate them in Wales right now (and which they CAN'T because of the union), and then using pursuing those policies as a reason for more devolution or independence.

Dr John Ball's written quite a bit on this. Also https://commonweal.scot/big-ideas/best-start-for-independent-scotland/ I find have useful ideas. If we look at establishing a Welsh state as a process over a period of years instead of a one off (probably traumatic) event then we can consider how a transition would happen. If we go for our own currency, which I personally think is a very good idea, then we'd want a period of sterlingisation as debts and savings are gradually converted to the new currency. We'd need at least 5 years, maybe 10 for this. How the market responds to Welsh currency will almost definitely depend on the fiscal and economic policies of the Welsh Government of the time. 

Well worth looking at the commonweal.scot website above. Also see Moody's on Iceland's economy. They did the very same thing a hundred years ago and their currency is well rated. What tends to happen in this debate is that pro-indy people often put the best case scenario forward whilst anti's put the worst case scenario forward. I don't personally find that useful. I'd rather know what the possibilities are and what work we'll need to put in to realistically get the best outcome possible.

It's a different proposition though saying "our currency could be highly valued in 100 years" to "yes your savings and standard of living is likely to decline in the next decade".

The interesting investigation is why is Iceland's currency highly rated by Moodys and what policies were instrumental in that?

I've made this point elsewhere before about the Irish, who yes are one of the best ranked economies in the world but weren't even in the game till the 90s and then 10 years ago were in a dark place... the policies that got them to where they are today aren't ones most independence movements in this country are interested in.

Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by Dai Guevara Dai Guevara wrote:


I can't remember the exact figures, but before independence the Irish Republic's GDP was a fraction of Wales' and they had no control over their resources allowing their English rulers to export Irish produced food while a million Irish died in the great famine and almost as many emigrated in the next half-century. By now Ireland has a GDP far higher than Wales and still the llais y sais (western mule) is still constantly telling us we can't afford to be Independent.

Only took them 70 years to get there though. 

The key to the growth of their GDP was they cut taxes, in particular corporation taxes, starting with the Celtic Tiger years in the 90s. 

From the 30s-80s they were a complete economic backwater, coupled with a devastating conflict in the North.

There’s no sign that either of the National Socialists of the SNP or Plaid have taken on board that lesson, nor do they want to. 

So any independent Scotland or Wales would most likely take 40 plus years to figure that out. All signs are that the SNP want to rejoin the EU which, by the time they’re allowed in, the EU will have standardised it’s corporation tax so wouldn’t even be able to make itself attractive to investment like Ireland has over the last 30 years.

The issue for an independent Scotland or Wales could also well be that any "low hanging fruit" from being an English speaking country in Europe or the EU has already been taken by Ireland... why would a multinational want to base themselves in Edinburgh or Cardiff over Dublin..? I'm not sure. 

I'm not sure why a business would choose to HQ in Edinburugh or Cardiff over London, if not only to be in the EU. But then you'd move to Dublin.

I think both independence campaigns have their work cut out in terms of actually laying out what kind of country they'd like to be outside the UK and what opportunities there are. 

All I see (and I've spent more time in Scotland than Wales in the last 5 years) is the independence campaigns main priorities are anti-Brexit, anti-Johnson and strange preoccupation with trans-rights. 

Wales' course following independence won't be Ireland's because we're not Ireland and not in the same situation Ireland was in a hundred years ago. I don't accept that it'll take seventy years to sort out our economy simply because that was the Irish experience. There has been a mini wave of independence in the Baltics and elsewhere in Europe in recent history and each experience a different one. But I very much agree with you when you say that the movement needs to outline what lies ahead and how will we use independence to rebuild our economy.

But to me that is far from all there is to this. The UK Government should also be held to account. How did they bring Wales to it's current economic condition? How do they propose to "level up"? I've never seen them held to account on this. I don't think they even care. I have no faith in them delivering anything other than further decline ... hence the desire to shove them out of the way and organise our own government.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dyniol53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2021 at 1:29am
Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:


Wales' course following independence won't be Ireland's because we're not Ireland and not in the same situation Ireland was in a hundred years ago. I don't accept that it'll take seventy years to sort out our economy simply because that was the Irish experience. There has been a mini wave of independence in the Baltics and elsewhere in Europe in recent history and each experience a different one. But I very much agree with you when you say that the movement needs to outline what lies ahead and how will we use independence to rebuild our economy.

But to me that is far from all there is to this. The UK Government should also be held to account. How did they bring Wales to it's current economic condition? How do they propose to "level up"? I've never seen them held to account on this. I don't think they even care. I have no faith in them delivering anything other than further decline ... hence the desire to shove them out of the way and organise our own government.

I think that’s a valid point again. There is a distinct lack of vision and leadership but also complete lack of courage politically both sides of the border. I’d say that I think Sturgeon is a brilliantly canny political leader but in a sort of "Blairite control the press" sort of manner - not a Get Sh*t Done sort of wat which is what the 21st Century demands 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2021 at 8:28am
Originally posted by dyniol53 dyniol53 wrote:

Originally posted by totallybiasedscarlet totallybiasedscarlet wrote:


Wales' course following independence won't be Ireland's because we're not Ireland and not in the same situation Ireland was in a hundred years ago. I don't accept that it'll take seventy years to sort out our economy simply because that was the Irish experience. There has been a mini wave of independence in the Baltics and elsewhere in Europe in recent history and each experience a different one. But I very much agree with you when you say that the movement needs to outline what lies ahead and how will we use independence to rebuild our economy.

But to me that is far from all there is to this. The UK Government should also be held to account. How did they bring Wales to it's current economic condition? How do they propose to "level up"? I've never seen them held to account on this. I don't think they even care. I have no faith in them delivering anything other than further decline ... hence the desire to shove them out of the way and organise our own government.

I think that’s a valid point again. There is a distinct lack of vision and leadership but also complete lack of courage politically both sides of the border. I’d say that I think Sturgeon is a brilliantly canny political leader but in a sort of "Blairite control the press" sort of manner - not a Get Sh*t Done sort of wat which is what the 21st Century demands 

A "getting stuff done" government is exactly what Wales needs. The recent Plaid-Labour agreement is a small step in the right direction. We need significant economic changes though.


Edited by totallybiasedscarlet - 26 November 2021 at 8:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote totallybiasedscarlet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 November 2021 at 1:10am
Talking of "getting stuff done" here's what Patel's been up to recently: https://inews.co.uk/opinion/priti-patel-anti-protest-powers-stuffed-policing-bill-1316830 

It doesn't matter who gets a majority in Wales. This horror show of a Tory party keeps getting in time and time again. Until we have a State of our own they'll continue to govern us regardless of our vote just from pure weight of numbers. They have no mandate here yet we're afflicted by their appalling actions.

I wonder if Welsh Labour in entering this new agreement with Plaid are just poking their head out the door to take a peek at independence ... hedging their bets perhaps.
"If it's on, we back our skills and our confidence ... We've got some great players, play a good brand and we enjoy doing it." Ken Owens
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